From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Jul 8 19:46:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20257 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 19:46:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id TAA10548 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 19:45:19 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 19:45:19 -0500 Message-Id: <200007090045.TAA10548@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1704 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, July 8 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1704 In this digest: Re: IN> Concerning Novalis Re: IN> Concerning Novalis IN> Essence Drain (Re: Khalid and Faith) Re: IN> Origins Re: IN> I certainly hope this isn't an exception. Re: IN> How much will Novalis put up with? Re: IN> Concerning Novalis IN> Kashrut Angels Re:IN> Yet More Babbling About Our Favorite Hippy Chick... IN> Adventure Seed: Super Haagenti Hunter 3D Re: IN> Concerning Novalis Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. NOT a complaint. IN> Really Old Jobs (was Metatron) Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. NOTa complaint. IN> Jesus's Fate and Destiny IN> A look at Lilim Re: IN> Kashrut Angels Re: IN> Concerning Novalis Re: IN> Adventure Seed: Super Haagenti Hunter 3D Re: IN> A look at Lilim Re: IN> I certainly hope this isn't an exception. IN> sales of new books IN> Idle Question ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:48:06 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Concerning Novalis From: "Genevieve Cogman" > > > >Which is how I see her, as well. I just wonder about > >the essential motivation for that attitude. I suspect > >that there's a strong element of inhuman patience, > >well mixed with the nigh-infinite capacity for love > >and forgiveness. > > Definitely. Not nigh-infinite -- infinite. And utterly inhuman patience. > Archangels are not human. If her patience truly was infiinite, however, Novalis would have made any violence on the part of her servitors her Dissonance condition. Since she does not dictate total pacifism, this indicates that her patience (while ALMOST boundless,) can eventually end. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 01:00:33 +0100 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> Concerning Novalis >From: "Genevieve Cogman" >> > >> >Which is how I see her, as well. I just wonder about >> >the essential motivation for that attitude. I suspect >> >that there's a strong element of inhuman patience, >> >well mixed with the nigh-infinite capacity for love >> >and forgiveness. >> >> Definitely. Not nigh-infinite -- infinite. And utterly inhuman patience. >> Archangels are not human. > >If her patience truly was infiinite, however, Novalis would have made any >violence on the part of her servitors her Dissonance condition. >Since she does not dictate total pacifism, this indicates that her patience >(while ALMOST boundless,) can eventually end. Novalis, in her great patience, does not ask the impossible of her angels. She just asks them to _try_. And the really sincere, enthusiastic, loving ones don't give up after a single attempt at pacifism, either. :) - --- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 20:31:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Essence Drain (Re: Khalid and Faith) At 4:30 AM -0400 7/7/00, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 7/6/00 11:18:16 PM Central Daylight Time, hackard@io.com >writes: > ><< [Don't mind me, I'm just trying to leech Essence off of Beth.] >> > >Isn't Iolanthe already doing that? All the time. It's why I need it so badly myself. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 20:34:58 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Origins At 10:14 PM -0400 7/6/00, Bull wrote: >Out of curiosity, does anyone know if there's going to be any In Nomine >stuff being run at Origins? You might go to www.sjgames.com/general/staff.html (I think -- if not, then just to /general) and look for the MiB contact... Hopefully _they_ would know. Nobody tells me anything... O:< - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 20:44:56 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> I certainly hope this isn't an exception. At 7:18 PM -0400 7/7/00, EDG wrote: >Two copies of Superiors 3, 5 copies of GURPS: In Nomine. They >were being placed on the shelves as I walked in the door. > >By the time I walked out, ten minutes later, a copy of each had been sold - >to separate people. Mmmmm. >When I went back today, there were no remaining copies of Superiors 3, and >one remaining copy of G:IN. (As far as the physical book goes, I have yet >to see anything but the cover of S3, though I must admit that Gabriel looks >good in glossy.) In addition, there were four back-orders for S3. Yeah, I hope that's not an exception too! >I don't /know/ any In Nomine gamers in the area besides myself. This is >creepy. Nay! It's an opportunity -- you can probably get a game together now... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:06:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> How much will Novalis put up with? Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 14:27:24 PDTFrom: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> How much will Novalis put up with? >What I'd like to know is how the word gets out that a >demon is on the Eternal Sword list. Somehow, I get the feeling that it becomes very clear, very quickly. Nothing like a endless stream of grim blackwings with fiery swords swarming around with absolutely no worrying about disturbance to make a point. You know, I bet Malakim of other Words might pull something like this on occasion: "OK, Dudiel: you materialize really loudly in the men's room, flaming sword in hand, and I'll stand by the door of the bar in celestial form, looking really pi**ed off. We'll see who runs..." ;) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Go Ahead and Run. You'll Just Die Tired. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:23:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Concerning Novalis Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 00:27:20 +0100From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> Concerning Novalis >And are love and understanding necessarily >controlled, deliberate, cultivated things? According >to some writers, such as CS Lewis, or some Christian >mystics, raw charity is a very frightening, dangerous >thing . . . Not at all. It's love and charity, after all, that causes Dominic to try and soul-kill angels on the verge of Falling. Better the True Death than An Existence Spent With God's Face Turned Away, after all. Now, you may disagree with _that_ notion (I do), but I'm just riffing on the idea that just because Novy loves everyone, and is willing to forgive everyone, she can't also reluctantly decide to annihilate the absolute worst dregs of demonkind. She's a Cherub. They Protect things. No matter what. >>Which is how I see her, as well. I just wonder about >>the essential motivation for that attitude. I >>suspect that there's a strong element of inhuman >>patience, well mixed with the nigh-infinite capacity >>for love and forgiveness. >Definitely. Not nigh-infinite -- infinite. And >utterly inhuman patience. >Archangels are not human. I think that this is the other sticking point between our two positions (not the "not human" bit: I agree with _that_ wholeheartedly): I don't see Novalis as having infinite levels of forgiveness. I don't see _anything_ as having infinite levels of anything. Except maybe God, but that's CDaU. :) And, if you have a finite capacity, eventually something's going to fill it... But that's just my opinion. I am quite often wrong. :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Every Rose Has Its Thorns __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 2000 18:26:01 -0700 From: Casca Subject: IN> Kashrut Angels On Wed, 05 July 2000, "Jo Hart" wrote: > Nah. it should be an angel of purity -- maybe even Uriel himself. > Kosher/Kashrut _means_ purity. The opposite to kosher is treif, which means > foul. I was thinking Judgement because the Kashrut wasn't a suggestion, but a Holy Law, stringently codified down to nitpicky detail so as to eliminate loopholes. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 2000 02:00:21 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re:IN> Yet More Babbling About Our Favorite Hippy Chick... On Mon, 3 Jul 2000 21:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Maurice Lane wrote: >Weird. I seem to be on a Novalis jag lately. This >stuff is a little low-contrast, low-brightness, so at >least I'm not being driven by my usual relentless >optimism... :) [snip] >Pesticide [snip] >It's also clear that, no matter what they may say, >there's at least one Archangel that secretly >encourages the members of Pesticide ... or at least >turns a blind eye to the odd assistants to his Tethers >that crop up from time to time. As usual, Michael is >the most popular suspect, but any other Archangel >besides Eli, and possibly Dominic, could be >responsible. i liked these, too, though i disagree that Michael would be the most likely suspect who actively approves of Pesticide. Michael's methods are often messy, but they get the job done for Heaven; he also obediently leaves the human race intact. i'd say that the most suspected Archangel who aids Pesticide is Jordi, who everyone in Heaven knows would have eradicated the species long ago. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:36:28 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Adventure Seed: Super Haagenti Hunter 3D Sometimes just WEIRD plot seeds appear to you. Tell me what ya think. Jayazal ("Jay" for short) the Kobal Demon of Bizzare Video games, and Bobar ("Bob") the Gluttony demon of Couch potato Electronic game players are two slackers in Hell that have the relatively non-offensive job of creating the bloody brain dead sexist stuff you find in the local malls every day and on the net. Despite or perhaps because of having words (specifically the ones they have) they are not the biggest fish in Hell and constantly mouth off about every other superior than their own. Suffering unfortunately from an appalling trend to be creative-they decided to manifest their hatred for the demons who look down on them by creating a video game called "Super Haagenti Hunter 3D" for their own personal use. The game basically is a combination of Doom and Pac-man chronicalling Haagenti's rise to power and eventual lordship of Hell (with interludes of comedy by Kobal-Haagenti's wise but irreverent mentor) by eating all the Superiors who've ticked them off. Unfortunately Jay and Bob's company for their roles hired a janitor named Eli who smirking at the video game decided to put it in the system when they were dozing off (he then quit to become a ballet dancer). As one might guess having a Superior with a plan from the other side...INCLUDE in that plan...makes your life expectancy very short...specifically with the results. Super Haagenti Hunter 3D is the hottest thing since Pokemon. Their company has a smash hit on their hands as children love monsters and the Demon Prince of Gluttony is no exception; adults love the storyline and the wonderful design work (hate is a labor of love in hell after all). Haagenti's eating demon after demon from Shal-Mari to Abbadon is something that as Electronics Game Monthly describes "Way Cool" Asmodeus's reaction to the game when he got the report was to have an epilectic fit; Not only is he the main villian of the game (destined at the last level to become Haagenti's main course) the game talks about everything from Haabalites to principalities....worse yet since "Bob" has a photographic memory it describes the districts of Hell perfectly...needless to say he calls for the two demonlings heads on a VERY large plate. Baal's reaction is similiar in that he has the proverbial golden calf. While not featured in the game (which is insulting enough-the duo have no problem with Hell's answer to Storming Norman) the game is the biggest drop of tactical information to the forces of Heaven and MORTALS since.....well ever! His servants are given orders to put the kabosh on this game and the demons... Kobal just stared at the game and Eli's prank for about ten minutes....then cracked a grin...tried to suppress it and burst out laughing for six straight hours when he realized the possibilities. Nybblas while intially peery of the game (One of the Game's most popular levels is after all his broadcasting station) can smell a trend and to everyone's horror turns his full media circle to promoting the Hell (literally) out of the game. Haagenti as everyone might guess is flattered by the game and ABSOLUTELY LOVES IT! He's likely to plop himself in front of the nearest screen with a mountain of junk food behind and beside him to play for a few months. Probably the game will become a big summoning aid. Vapula just looked up and said "Good....perhaps it's time to test my hypnosis chip..MUHAHA HHAHAH AHH AHA " and went back to his research on the electric rat. Mammon upon learning Haagenti kills him in the first level and decours his hell promptly and calmly begins preparing for war-not intending to remain the entries that his associates Meserach and Mariel became. Up in Heaven the game is not entirely ignored either... Michael needless to say buys about a millon copies to help plan war games for Hell....he having that "look" on his face again. Dominic is alittle less enthusiastic...especially when he sees innocents wearing Haagenti T-shirts and hears the suspiciously prayer-esque chants of Haagenti lovers "mmmmmm " becomming kid's calling cards. It's all too similar to Belial and Baal's cults in his mind. The fact Eli did this just gives him more fuel to consider this essence drain on the population as the proof of Eli's imminent fall. Laurence as usual is caught between his two buddies above in his position, hoping for a sequel and yet doing his best to undo it's popularity. Novalis hates violent games. Yves is content that the game company because of fear of backlash (THEY HAVE *NO* IDEA) put in a redeem option if you beat asmodeus in Beta designing to become "Angel of Satisfaction" Eli is just wondering what everyone is so concerned about, then he smiles knowingly. Jean takes one look at the game and says "Bah, I could have done that". Then he begins working on "Angel of War-The Fall of Lucifer" starring you Micheael or the sexy Lara Croftian Gabrielle (some innacuracy is expected of course). As for the two perpetrators themselves....realizing the rather deep excrement they're in they decide on the prudent course of getting the hell out of Hell and become renegades. Looking for allies who won't promptly turn them into Dominic and Asmodeus's hunters, they are considering joining the other side (they're mainly worried they can't have sex or make violent games or cuss) or making the titanically weird option of asking Lucifer himself for a pardon. Needless to say the PCs have a number of options to get in to this (truth be told) relatively minor crisis in Heaven. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:45:04 -0700 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Concerning Novalis > If her patience truly was infiinite, however, Novalis would have made any > violence on the part of her servitors her Dissonance condition. > > Since she does not dictate total pacifism, this indicates that her patience > (while ALMOST boundless,) can eventually end. AA of FLOWERS, not Mercy, not Love, not Patience, not even Peace... The is the Archangel of Kudzu and Venus Flytraps also y'know. Also, any violence would/could include some forms of defence and I don't see a Cherub going for that either. The Other David ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 2000 20:03:28 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. NOT a complaint. On Wed, 05 July 2000, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Technically, the maintainer of the INC should be asking > the appropriate authors, and if they say "no," respecting EDG, this is your balliwick. I don't want it. Besides, it's not like you do any real work on the INC... ;) > that. Sometimes this gets skipped in the assumption that > people _want_ their moment of INC fame. (So far, I don't > think anyone's said no.) Okay, I've never taken a logic class, so I may be missing something here... but what's the difference between having your stuff put on a mailing list and having it put on a website? Especially since that selfsame website hosts the mailing list archives? I mean, the stuff is there, regardless. The only difference is that it's cleaned up, amde easier to find, and the author's name put in big letters next to the title. > Nevertheless, I wave the Rolled Up Newspaper at EDG. O:> > The INC is _unofficial_, for all that it is hosted at > the sjgames site, and putting things there should not > be considered the same as the digest. From my limited perspective, I would think that if folks don't want their stuff put on a website, they wouldn't post it to a mailing list, either. > You can, of course, do a global "I want my stuff there!" > at the INC maintainer du jour. Or a "feel free" on > every message, or a "don't send this one to the INC, till > I hear back from pyramid" or wahtever. Would it be fair to assume -- in the interests of my sanity -- that unless folks say otherwise, it's okay to put their stuff on the INC? Because if we gotta go through a ferschlugginer procedure on every single flipping article before we post it, the INC will once again slow to the pace of an asthmatic ant with a particularly heavy load of shopping.* * From _Blackadder Goes Forth_, Volume 2, "Goodbyeee" - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:57:35 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Really Old Jobs (was Metatron) >the Fall was roughly 25,000 years ago (IIRC from the GMG) Thank you there...found it in my GMG Oh dear though, I described my Seraphim as having seen dinosaurs and the Earth cool....(so I suspect making him among Eli's first creations is quite okay-I can explain it away as him not remembering much before the fall do to ethereal dissonance and lost forces too) This however begs the question... What exactly did the Various choirs and superiors do before they're actually were humans to occupy their time? We know Gabrielle was busy heating up things and Eli was trying to get his plans straight for rabbits and all that but there's still quite a bit to figure out methinks....especially for people like Baal, Asmodeus, etc. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 22:28:06 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. NOTa complaint. Casca wrote: > Okay, I've never taken a logic class, so I may be missing something here... > but what's the difference between having your stuff put on a mailing list and having it put on a website? > Especially since that selfsame website hosts the mailing list archives? WARNING: I am not a lawyer, and guarantee the accuracy of none of the following. But it is my understanding of how things work. (Then again, keep in mind that Internet pundits, and especially gamers, are notorious for knowing much less than they think they do about copyright laws, so take this for what it's worth.) LEGALLY, everything you produce (unless it's under contract, or with certain other exceptions) is (c) 2000, You. Anything you post, even to a public forum, technically falls under this copyright (and contrary to popular belief, you do NOT need to specifically state it's copyrighted for copyright laws to be in effect, although it will help you make your case should you ever actually go to court). Now, the fact that it's copyrighted does NOT mean it's illegal for someone else to reproduce it elsewhere. However, it DOES mean that the author is within his legal rights to demand that you NOT do so, or sue for damages if you do. Or to put this in simple terms: Can I take Casca's post and put it on my website? Yes. Can I charge money to access Casca's post on my website? Yes. Can Casca demand that I remove his post from my website? Yes. Can Casca sue me for putting his post on my website without his permission? Yes. Although he'd have to actually prove damages, which is unlikely for your typical Internet post. OTOH, if I was charging money to read his sterling words of wisdom, the courts would probably award him any money I made from his prose, and possibly damages as well. In practical terms, there should be no problem with reproducing anything posted to this list on the INC, and no, EDG does not need to ask permission. (He would be obligated to remove anything the author requested be removed, though, or to not post it if the author specifically said he didn't want it put on the INC.) Given the unlikelihood of anyone suing because something they posted on the In Nomine list got put on the INC, I think this is rather a non-issue. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:15:03 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Jesus's Fate and Destiny >Judas raises any number of questions, the most important to me being "Is it >possible for someone's Destiny and Fate to be so close to the exact same >thing as to make no real difference?" I don't think so because that would mean a soul was destined for disillusionment or eternal reincarnation. As Yves and Kronos can both read the future this is pretty unlikely they'd be so bloody mean to a poor soul that benifits no one. At least in a non-Dark setting. (in a Dark setting they might cooperate aka Dominic and Asmodeus in order to set up big events like Armageddon-like Damien Thorne-the man had no hope of redemption because all his choices were set up so he could be the adversary for Christ in such a realm) Usually destiny and fate is either two sides of the same coin (that one choice whether or not to run or save someone's life might fill your destiny of killing or saving a life) or they may be wildly divergent (Hitler and his interior decorating hobby in the main book). No doubt Yves tries to get people to get their destinies even when a person has achieved their fate or at least try to undo the achievement (in the car accident metaphor of saving someone's life-if two angels save him-they might save the person's soul for a day-or if they get him to go back). >After all, it says in the gospels that after Jesus told his disciples that >one of them was fated to betray him, he then commanded Judas to go do it. It depends on contrast. In a "Last Temptation of Christ" Dark campaign Judas got the shaft because he was asked like Iblis to break the law of God by God. However if Jesus's Destiny was to die for his Faith and raise from the dead....that's got a lot of potential possibilities there. No offense in my mind Jesus was a marked man once he entered jerusalem. Pilate, Herod, the Sadduces, Judas, and Longinus (though he hasn't got it yet) met their fates in my opinion by condeming an innocent man to die. However Judas had already betrayed Jesus by the time he pointed out who was going to betray him. Judas's fate was done the momment he led them to the house...or it might have been when he gave Jesus the kiss. In a moderate contrast Jesus pronounced that Judas's failure was sealed-he knew after all. A light one appropriate is Judas might have fessed up and said. "Forgive me lord" and then Jesus would have put his hand on him and said "You are forgiven. What is to happen tonight was foretold."-Judas despaired and did not....ergo he hung himself believing his fate sealed. When it might have been the kiss (my belief was that was the point he completed his fate). Like Peter and the denial of Christ. He was fated to do it but also became Pope so God might have let him off the hook....or not. Depends on how you run it (or if it was THE fate). >What if betraying Jesus was both Destiny *and* Fate for Judas? My thoughts is personally Judas will likely end up making a pact with Saminga and become a vampire/mummy/etc. At which points he'll either become an enemy of Christianity because he blames God for all his woes (probably most likely I'm sorry to say) or he'll end up trying to seek repentence and discover that his vampirism has taken away THAT option... Lucifer just loves poor Judas to death.... - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 01:33:15 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> A look at Lilim Marc Bowdin: >Bright Lilim aren't /really/ a Choir, are they? That's the trouble; it's hard classifying the Lilim which is why people like Andre or Nybblas who likely have the biggest need for Lilim-can't manufacture them on their own. What they are could be..... 1:) The actual Children of Lilith: This would indicate that the Lilim are actually Lilith's offspring in the natural way by her various lovers-going directly out of myth. According to the legends she had children by angels, demons, animals, and mortals though frankly it's hard to tell the difference on the third one when Seraphs and Cherubs are involved let alone Kyirorites ...plus their opposite numbers. In cannon In Nomine I would put mortals as the vast number of fathers of the Lilim and any angelic offspring the mean spirited use of Song of Fruitation on the unsuspecting parents. This is the easiest method of explaining Lilim-they are humans who are the children of one of the most perfect humans ever made. Thus why the other demon princes can reproduce them (being unable to bear children or sire them naturally) 2:) They're souls who have met their fate and destiny Hehe kinda my own personal theory here...Lilith realizes these souls are truly free and when they rejoin with the symphony snatches them up and grafts them to the bodies she creates for them. A big secret of Aleamon I think :-) 3:) Just a creation of Lilith's Brought from the symphony just like any other choir-she has her own special brand to make them. "The Freedoms" is what type of Choir insturment they are made just like how all seraphs were brought from Truths. Since no other Demon Prince can touch humanity's personal symphony (stuck with being an Impudite as Kobal-loving humanity and it's goods but not a PART of it) she has a monopoly. Whistling in the Dark wrote: >So, yeah. I think they are a Choir. A minor Choir. A Choir so minor >it makes the Menenum (however you spell that -- I think it's the >first time I ever tried to) seem downright *numerous.* But a Choir >nonetheless. If they're the freedoms I think so. I put about three hundred or so in Heaven at this time. In my campaign they'res endless millions (not counting relievers) of angels serving each Archangel but only a few dozen (Hebrew times) to a hundred thousand (during the Great wars etc and Black Death) allowed down on Earth. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 22:44:39 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Kashrut Angels >From: Casca > > >I was thinking Judgement because the Kashrut wasn't a suggestion, but a >Holy Law, stringently codified down to nitpicky detail so as to eliminate >loopholes. > You could say that for most of the Torah laws, though :) Kashrut is, when all's said and done, a set of guidelines on how to live -- how to keep the food pure. It isn't a moral compass. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 23:02:14 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Concerning Novalis This is a slightly different take (warning: I usually have the archangels fairly bright.) I don't see Novalis as a grim, gritty, calculating type of personality. She's either the Archangel with the most longterm view of all, or the one with the most short-term, depending on who you ask. Now the thing to remember is that flowers, and plants in general, are happy, reactive things. They rejoice in the sun and the rain, put down roots, and grow toards heaven (mostly). And that's it. Some provide fruit which they happily give to birds, insects and humans -- in order to spread their seeds. But given enough time, dumb green shoots and flowers can overwhelm anything (_anthing_) that humans are capable of building. Roses have thorns, some plants have poisonous berries -- and of course, if you leave the flower alone, you may never see the thorns. If Archangel Michael fosters courage, Archangel David fosters patience and endurance, and Archangel Gabriel fosters passion and inspiration, then Novalis fosters joy .. and that's it. Because to her, every form of life is precious, and the gurgle of the crippled baby as the sun's ray slants across its face is just as important, just as necessary, as the laughter of lovers or the contentment of an old soldier who has retired to work in his garden. Calmness, contentment, sunniness and tranquility is in her nature. She laughs for no reason, simply because the world is alive, breathing and growing ... and her servitors laugh with her. She weeps for no reason, because so many things are lost with no-one to grieve for them, and her servitors grieve too. Everyone knows people who are always happy, despite whatever blows life has sent them. That's what Novalis and her angels try to bring to the world; because it's a beautiful world, full of all kinds of life. She's a hippy chick who loves the world and everything in it, and she _truly_ believes that if everyone could learn to love God, love themselves, and love each other, that there would be no more need for violence or war, and grass would grow on each grain of sand (that latter phrase is a Hebrew proverb, but her angels take it literally, and a lot of them are involved in agricultural research.) So can they be violent? Sure, it hurts Novalis deeply when anyone or anything makes more pain in the world. And when she _fights_, it is raw, undisciplined, elemental violence ... the sort of violence you might get from a trapped rat, or a mother swan defending her nest, or any normally gentle creature that has been pushed beyond the bounds of reason. She's not a reasonable archangel. But violence is one of the evils which her Malakim are sworn to destroy, so it really is a last resort from them; they only use it if they are sure that violence on their part is the lesser evil. Despite her hippy, happy nature, Novalis does understand the natural cycles of life and death -- even if she doesn't articulate it in the calm rational way that Jean might choose; she understands things on an emotional level -- that things are born, grow old and then die to make way for new things. Her angels comfort mourners, and the dying, but they try to show that life goes on and one should try to find ways to be happy and take joy from little things. Each person who finds something joyful in the world is also celebrating God, and no demon should be allowed to take that away. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 02:38:41 -0400 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Seed: Super Haagenti Hunter 3D Intersting idea. Only one plot hole I see. How is it exactly that these two have enough information about other Principalities to make Princes worry? Demon Princes hide that information from eachother, so at best they are going to share a general layout of exterior and non-essential areas. Another issue is that in canon Superiors can simply rearrange their domain. While Demon Princes prefer to do this by hordes of slave labor they can just will everything to be different. If I ever ran it I'd probably have it not be Eli who released it, but Kobal. Just because its an excellent item of damnation. I love the new slang that would come with it. I can also imagine Haaganti trying to act out the video game in hell, getting put down and then the hell media filled with: "These damned video games! They lead our impressional demon princes to do horrible things!" Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:32:42 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> A look at Lilim At 1:33 AM -0400 7/8/00, Charles Phipps wrote: > >Whistling in the Dark wrote: >>So, yeah. I think they are a Choir. A minor Choir. A Choir so minor >>it makes the Menenum (however you spell that -- I think it's the >>first time I ever tried to) seem downright *numerous.* But a Choir >>nonetheless. > >If they're the freedoms I think so. > >I put about three hundred or so in Heaven at this time. In my campaign >they'res endless millions (not counting relievers) of angels serving each >Archangel but only a few dozen (Hebrew times) to a hundred thousand (during >the Great wars etc and Black Death) allowed down on Earth. Really? Well, I can semi-agree (IMC -- this is all sheer opinion) with the number of Angels, though I have considerably less (under a million angels total, with less than one percent on Earth. About two million demons, with a similar percentage on Earth). However, there are only eleven Brights known in Heaven or on Earth this time IMC. Almost every Archangel who doesn't have any wants one. Those that do have one (or rarely two) want more. (There *are* more, IST a specific Archangel through a deal between he and Lilith, which would be an astounding scandel if it got out.) If I recall correctly (my notes are in a box somewhere in the mess of my new apartment) the proportions work out like this (including the two Canon Brights I'm aware of): 1 Bright of Dreams (FotM & TFT) 1 Bright of Creation in Service to Flowers (Liber Servitorum) 2 Brights of the Sword 1 Bright of Stone 2 Brights of Trade 1 Bright of Lightning 1 Bright of Fire 1 Bright of Flowers 1 Bright of Judgement The last, of course, is the most interesting... and this doesn't count Fallen or Desceased Brights (in the last century, two Brights of the Wind have Fallen, and *three* Brights of War have been Soul Killed. As a result, Janus and Michael have had trouble getting Brights assigned to them.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 12:24:56 -0700 From: Laura Davidson Subject: Re: IN> I certainly hope this isn't an exception. At 08:44 PM 7/7/00 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 7:18 PM -0400 7/7/00, EDG wrote: >>When I went back today, there were no remaining copies of Superiors 3, and >>one remaining copy of G:IN. (As far as the physical book goes, I have yet >>to see anything but the cover of S3, though I must admit that Gabriel looks >>good in glossy.) In addition, there were four back-orders for S3. > > Yeah, I hope that's not an exception too! It's not. I tried for a copy Friday night (first free time I had) and haven't been able to get either. My gaming store had sold out of both. Tuesday or Thursday for more, depending on when the order comes in, I've been told. I'm very glad that it's going like this, but I want these books, also. :) - -Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:22:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Diane J Donaldson Subject: IN> sales of new books In my local gaming store, which got its books on Friday, there are plenty of copies of Superiors 3 left, but only one copy of GURPS IN. (There were three when I called to reserve mine this morning.) djd ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:45:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Idle Question ... I might as well ask it now, while I'm thinking about it: Why are so few Superiors portrayed as primarily female? We've got Blandine, Gabriel and Novalis (plus Zadkiel as a minor) on the side of Heaven; Beleth and Lilith aligned with Hell. Most of the Superiors writeups cover treating feminine versions of their subjects, but only in the case of Andre does this seem as more than obligatory for the sake of completeness (IMO, at least). And, of course, the feminine version of Dominic is subject for rude and disrespectful commentary among the more irreverent IN devotees. :) What I'm curious about is whether this is a holdover from the French game, a result of some inherent game philosophy, or just the product of random development. It doesn't particularly _concern_ me, as my next campaign will cut and paste to suit, and gender is probably immaterial to a being that reproduces asexually anyway, but it's a minor question that I've gotten bored with pondering. Or has this come up, and is now part of the Hidden Lore of the FAQ? :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Not Wishing To Start An Inadvertant Flamewar, BTW. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1704 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.