From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Jul 9 20:10:00 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03871 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:10:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id UAA28565 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:08:19 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:08:19 -0500 Message-Id: <200007100108.UAA28565@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1705 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, July 9 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1705 In this digest: Re: IN> sales of new books Re: IN> Idle Question ... Re: IN> I certainly hope this isn't an exception. IN> Super Haagenti Hunter 3d Re: IN> Idle Question ... Re: IN> A look at Lilim Re: IN> Adventure Seed: Super Haagenti Hunter 3D Re: IN> Idle Question ... Re: IN> A look at Lilim Re: IN> Idle Question ... Re: IN> A look at Lilim Re: IN> Idle Question ... (Blandine/Beleth) Re: IN> Idle Question ... All the Fuss about Harry Potter (WAS: IN> Khalid and Faith) Re: All the Fuss about Harry Potter (WAS: IN> Khalid and Faith) Re: All the Fuss about Harry Potter (WAS: IN> Khalid and Faith) Re: IN> A look at Lilim Re: IN> A look at Lilim Re: IN> A look at Lilim IN> Perspective on the Fall IN> I'm thinking of changing from digest to post ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:56:47 -0700 (PDT) From: MANDY JON BOWYER Subject: Re: IN> sales of new books On Sat, 8 Jul 2000, Diane J Donaldson wrote: > In my local gaming store, which got its books on Friday, there are plenty > of copies of Superiors 3 left, but only one copy of GURPS IN. (There were > three when I called to reserve mine this morning My local gaming store got in a bunch of IN books on Thursday (but no S3 :<) and where all sold out by today. Mandy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 02:03:01 +0100 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> Idle Question ... >Why are so few Superiors portrayed as primarily >female? >What I'm curious about is whether this is a holdover >from the French game, a result of some inherent game >philosophy, or just the product of random development. > It doesn't particularly _concern_ me, as my next >campaign will cut and paste to suit, and gender is >probably immaterial to a being that reproduces >asexually anyway, but it's a minor question that I've >gotten bored with pondering. For what it's worth, in the French game Blandine is very beautiful and is reputed to have had numerous love affairs -- even (horror for all good Christian Archangels) lesbian ones with some of her prettier angels, liaisons with Valefor, Janus... (Beleth is male, and the whole Blandine-Beleth relationship never existed in INS/MV.) Novalis is also male, and somewhat heavier on the drugs, though I love the bit where he tries to separate Michael and Laurent on the Seraphim Council floor. (Michael was trying to throttle Laurent. Something about fascist idiot Archangels. Don't ask.) Gabriel is male, and hasn't been heard of for the last several hundred years, ever since that rather painful Islam incident. There is a female archangel called Ange, Archangel of Converts, who manifests as a young girl -- well, technically she is still a young girl, as she has only recently become an Archangel. (In a rather enjoyable campaign called _Baron Samedi_ which may involve the PCs helping her reach that position, after tangled events involving a voodoo cradle, human sacrifices, a renegade Michaelite and a renegade Andrealphite, and, um, general confusion.) There's also Catherine, Archangel of Women, who is in fact Eve (yes, that Eve) and who has been missing since the Joan of Arc affair, though she also shows up in a campaign (the Deus Ex Machina supplement) and may be involved in helping the PCs stopping the Celtic gods and a Renegade Archangel from destroying Notre-Dame . . . There aren't actually any female Demon Princes. Though Andrealphus _can_ appear in female form. (And is in fact currently spending nine months in female form, on Earth, due to a little breeding project he/she has in train . . .) Genevieve (who has just got hold of the latest INS/MV supplement, just out, the Encyclopaedia Spiritis, Volume 1. It deals with Heaven and the Archangels. A fair amount of general stuff, then four pages per Archangel, including a section of "opinions on other Archangels" which looks not a million miles from the layout as used by our own beloved IN/SJG. Ah well, a good idea is a good idea . . .) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 21:27:58 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> I certainly hope this isn't an exception. > Yeah, I hope that's not an exception too! > It's not. I tried for a copy Friday night >(first free time I had) and haven't been able to get either. My gaming >store had sold out of both. Tuesday or Thursday for more, depending on when >the order comes in, I've been told. >I'm very glad that it's going like this, but I want these books, also. :) And on a good note as well, when I walked into Ye Locale Gaming Store today, I went to the counter to ask for S3 and a look at GURPS IN. After all, the past several books IN books I've bought from them have been produced by asking if they had them - from boxes under the counter. No display space at all. Today, they were both on nice, well-done end caps. About eight copies of each. I didn't hang around to see how many copies disappeared after my two, however. But it was a notable change! Mind you, I was also at the mall today. WotC didn't have any IN in the store, and the other local chain that takes mall space only had a couple of the old Rev cycle books. Regards, Ki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:35:12 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Super Haagenti Hunter 3d >Intersting idea. Only one plot hole I see. How is it exactly that these >two have enough information about other Principalities to make Princes >worry? Demon Princes hide that information from eachother, so at best they >are going to share a general layout of exterior and non-essential areas. True though frankly I doubt Shal Mari is all that secret. Andre, Kobal, and Haagenti thrive on getting as many folk (demon prince to imp) in town as often as possible. Still I doubt Asmodeus and Baal's reaction is going to be any less severe on the whole issue of demon prince names, bands, and principality general info falling out of demonic hands in such a comical fashion. At least enough to toast two small time servitors. >Another issue is that in canon Superiors can simply rearrange their domain. >While Demon Princes prefer to do this by hordes of slave labor they can >just will everything to be different. I'd forgotton about that, so it's probably best to just remove the tactical angle of it all and make it a strictly embarassment issue as above. It's not often one side is embarrased this badly truly. >If I ever ran it I'd probably have it not be Eli who released it, but >Kobal. Just because its an excellent item of damnation. I love the new >slang that would come with it. I can also imagine Haaganti trying to act >out the video game in hell, getting put down and then the hell media filled >with: >"These damned video games! They lead our impressional demon princes to do >horrible things!" *snicker* Oh yeah. Whole new dimension to Haagenti. (the whawhawhawhawhawha sound of Pacman whenever one of his servitors are around, speculation abounding whether or not Kirby is a habbalah of his, Need I mention the Yoshi and Super Mario brothers jokes)... And once he recovers from his headache Baal gave him when he bit him...his servitors will be in deeep trouble. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 2000 21:17:46 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Idle Question ... On Sat, 08 July 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: > I might as well ask it now, while I'm thinking about > it: > > Why are so few Superiors portrayed as primarily > female? The way I run it IMC is that the Words, being generally human concepts, influence their holder towards a particular gender. Biologically, this is meaningless, but emotionally/intellectually it affects the holder. Thus, masculine Words (War, the Sword) result in masculine holders, etc. Jordi is really the only exception to this -- the Word of Animals has no human connotations, even the way that Flowers, Stone and Fire have. But since Jordi is a Kyrio, this doesn't matter too much. I get the impression Jordi is referred to as a 'he' as a matter of convenience. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:47:25 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: Re: IN> A look at Lilim At 1:33 AM -0400 07/08/00, Charles Phipps wrote: > That's the trouble; it's hard classifying the Lilim which is why people like > [Andrealphus]* or [Nybbas] who likely have the biggest need for Lilim-can't > manufacture them on their own. I think it's more along the lines of the Word that Lilith holds, her pulling out the 'Lilith-Force' necessary to make the Lilim catalyze properly, and any number of Lucifer/GM Fiat you can come up with. > What they are could be..... >1:) The actual Children of Lilith: Interesting. Highly unlikely, but interesting none the less. In a sense, they _are_ her children, but only because she contributes a piece of herself to their making. >2:) They're souls who have met their [Fate] and [Destiny] Again, interesting theory. However: Some of them tend to go back around for a second chance. Those that _do_ achieve Nirvana, tend to recycle their Forces back into the Symphony. Which means, it's entirely possible that Lilith snags these suddenly free Forces, and brings them together in her children. > A big secret of [Alaemon] I think :-) Not likely. Now, Gebbeleth on the other hand. . . Or perhaps Mariel knows (knew?). . . > 3:) Just a creation of Lilith's > Brought from the [Symphony] just like any other [Band] - she has her own > special brand to make them. Which is essentially the canonical version of things. > "The Freedoms" is what type of [Band] [instrument] they are made[,] just like > how all [Seraphim] were brought from [Truth]. Ah, but her very word means her Daughters have the 'Freedom' to choose. They are given a choice, and nothing more. > Since no other Demon Prince can touch humanity's personal symphony (stuck > with being an Impudite as Kobal-loving humanity and it's goods but not a > PART of it) she has a monopoly. Lilith, one and only. > I put about three hundred or so in Heaven at this time. Bright Lilim? Try more like a handful, at MOST. Even with 1 angel per 100 humans. They're _that_ rare, and all the more precious. Why do you think Lilith let's them get away with it? };;;> (* Considered the PROPER, and CORRECT Spelling.) Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:01:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Seed: Super Haagenti Hunter 3D Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:36:28 -0400From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Adventure Seed: Super Haagenti Hunter 3D >Sometimes just WEIRD plot seeds appear to you. Tell >me what ya think. Weird is good. It made me laugh, which I assume was the idea. BTW, David might actually like this one, assuming of course that the "protagonist" of the game doesn't have any ranged weapons. Well, maybe not. >As for the two perpetrators themselves....realizing >the rather deep excrement they're in they decide on >the prudent course of getting the hell out of Hell >and become renegades. Looking for allies who won't >promptly turn them into Dominic and Asmodeus's >hunters, they are considering joining the other side >(they're mainly worried they can't have sex or make >violent games or cuss) I'm sure that Mikey will be more than happy to discuss new career opportunities with these two. Of course, IMC, Mike wenches, swears like a sailor and was a betatester for Diablo 2... :) >or making the titanically weird option of asking >Lucifer himself for a pardon. You know, for some reason I think that might actually work. I just have no idea why. Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Secret Levels __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 04:11:29 -0500 From: "Matt W." Subject: Re: IN> Idle Question ... > Why are so few Superiors portrayed as primarily > female? As far as sexes go, I always divided Superiors into three distinct categories: The Definitely Masculine The Definitely Feminine The Don't Matter Either Way The Definite Masculine include Michael, Baal, Saminga (the male form is less tied to birth and creation), etc. etc. To these people, the "he" pronoun refers specifically to a masculine image The Definitely Feminine are the same way, and are listed as Princess and refered to as she, etc. etc. The Doesn't Matters are a *majority* of the Superiors. Litheroy can be an excitable old female archaeologist to a young male private detective. Jean will appear as just about anybody, but prefers just one vessel and appearance (it's simple, more effecient, and doesn't smack of vanity or whimsy). Eli would quite frequently show up as female (for the same reasons Saminga wouldn't.) Andrealphus loves it either way. Dominic is specifically described as appearing either way, of course, IMHO Dominic's behavior is more feminine than masculine. Kobal will switch to any mask for the joke. The "he" pronoun is used just because English lacks a personal neuter pronoun besides "it" which just doesn't sound right. It's assumed, however, that the celestial tongue contains a perfect, non-offensive, respectful neuter pronoun which is untransatable. The "It" in celestial you use to refer to androgynous Jean is not the same "It" you use to refer to that nasty spot on the Cathedral wall, or at least that's my opinoin. = Mathus, Demon of Rants = = ArchRival of Timothy = ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 09:52:04 -0700 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> A look at Lilim > At 1:33 AM -0400 07/08/00, Charles Phipps wrote: > > That's the trouble; it's hard classifying the Lilim which is why people like > > [Andrealphus]* or [Nybbas] who likely have the biggest need for Lilim-can't > > manufacture them on their own. > > I think it's more along the lines of the Word that Lilith holds, her > pulling out the 'Lilith-Force' necessary to make the Lilim catalyze > properly, and any number of Lucifer/GM Fiat you can come up with. You know, as a matter of clarification she's the Human Princess of Freedom in GURPS IN. The other question that I have never seen asked or answered- Can Lilith make anything else? Or is it just Lilim? I favor that interpretation myself and the more I think about I do think I like the all Lilim are Lilith's actual children concept. David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 11:56:31 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Idle Question ... At 20:45 -0400 7/8/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >Why are so few Superiors portrayed as primarily >female? ... >What I'm curious about is whether this is a holdover >from the French game, Elizabeth (holding baby right now, so not on email) says she thinks it's mostly a holdover from INS/MV. > a result of some inherent game >philosophy, or just the product of random development. Could be some of those, too, I suspect -- only Derek really knows, probably. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 12:12:45 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> A look at Lilim At 12:52 -0400 7/9/00, David Rodemaker wrote: >> At 1:33 AM -0400 07/08/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >> > That's the trouble; it's hard classifying the Lilim which is why people >like >> > [Andrealphus]* or [Nybbas] who likely have the biggest need for >Lilim-can't >> > manufacture them on their own. >> >> I think it's more along the lines of the Word that Lilith holds, her >> pulling out the 'Lilith-Force' necessary to make the Lilim catalyze >> properly, and any number of Lucifer/GM Fiat you can come up with. > >You know, as a matter of clarification she's the Human Princess of Freedom >in GURPS IN. Canon is that Lilith is a human still, as far as the Symphony is concerned. Since GURPS IN listed the Choir/Band of each Superior with their titles, Elizabeth decided her canonical title in that format is "Human Princess" (where Andre is "Impudite Price" and Kronos is ""Balseraph" Prince"). There's nothing new here except a slight bit of notation. > The other question that I have never seen asked or answered- >Can Lilith make anything else? Or is it just Lilim? This is explicitly CDaU in the FotM writeup of Lilith. Canon is that she has never made anything else, to anyone's knowledge. Elizabeth notes that she could, as a Superior, add Forces to a demonling until it fledged, and possibly influence the Band it fledged into. But this isn't the typical "how to make demons" process used by the Princes. > I favor that >interpretation myself and the more I think about I do think I like the all >Lilim are Lilith's actual children concept. Lilim are true celestials, and canon on humans is that normal human reproduction (even with celestials using Fruition) results in *some* flavor of human (including Nephalim and Children of the Grigori). People have suggested this in the past, and it has some support from the Lilith mythos -- though I recall something about her having 100 children a day that way, which isn't exactly "normal" human reproduction.... Following canon, the fact that Lilim are celestials eliminates the notions that they are either Lilith's children by "normal" processes, or human souls recycled by her (since canon states categorically that humans *can't* become celestials). She might, however, recycle raw Forces from human souls -- something every Prince can do. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 18:30:20 +0100 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> Idle Question ... (Blandine/Beleth) Okay, this I _have_ to share. While skimming through the new French Encyclopaedia Spiritis (which I recommend *absolutely* to anybody who can speak French or use a dictionary -- 160 pages, 4-8 on each Archangel, inner workings of the Council, private domains in Heaven, oh baby) I paused on the Blandine writeup. They've made some changes from the previous basic version in the main rulebook, which had pretty much no history at all. Oh yes. See, apparently there was now a male angel named Rennel in Heaven earlier, who was in charge of the Dreams of God. While taking a five-second break from chanting praises, his eyes met those of a beautiful female angel named Blandine, who was one of those responsible for watching over the humans by night. It was love at first sight. Together they began exploring human dreams, hand in hand, discovering their full scope and possibility. But then came the Samael (Lucifer) business. Rennel saw in him a courageous freethinker, an innovator trying to explore to the maximum the divine gifts of the angels and the fantastic freedom of humans. Blandine saw him as a shameful sinner who refused to confess his faults before a loving and merciful father, an arrogant angel too full of himself, who thought he could stand in the place of divine justice and truth. (And an angel who thought he could push women around.) As chaos reigned in the Divine Council, Rennel and Blandine clasped each other's hands once more. Each wanted to draw the other to their chosen leader. An instant of doubt. Their eyes met one last time, and the breach was complete. The battle which followed eradicated all hope of reconciliation. Rennel ended up being thrown down to Hell with the rest of the rebels. Blandine tried to follow him down as far as possible, but was prevented. She was named Angel of Power (though not yet AA) of the Dreams of God, in place of Rennel. He and Blandine met one last time in the Marches, at God's direct command, to blur the memories of all non-Archangels (and a few grade 3 (Master-level) angels) of before the Fall. Rennel had changed -- he now called himself Beleth, and his once-white wings were now dark as night. They performed their task, and then separated forever. And that night, alone on her cloudy promontary at the edge of the Eternal City, Blandine wept. (She reached her position as Archangel later, but that's another story.) Anyhow -- isn't it nice to see that Siroz and the INS/MV authors are reading our books? :) Genevieve - --- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 12:46:55 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Idle Question ... > Why are so few Superiors portrayed as primarily > female? The original sources portray nearly every angel as male -- original sources being, of course, the various extra-Biblical texts. In these sources, angels were considered to have no gender. Church fathers went so far as to declare that the Grigori were, in fact, an entirely different kind of angel -- a sub-angel -- and were thus able to procreate with humans. On the other hand, angels were always referred to as "he", painted as male, and generally made more masculine. Islam goes so far as to decree that only sinners believe in female angels. On the other hand (third hand?), there are scholars who maintain that Gabriel really was a female angel, and that this perception changed dramatically between the Black Death and the Renaissance until Gabriel became decidedly male. Gabriel's attention to births, pregnancy, and other topics are part of the reasoning for making him female. So it's a holdover from 4,000+ years of angelology. :-) > Morgan (FAW) Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:16:03 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: All the Fuss about Harry Potter (WAS: IN> Khalid and Faith) At 6:25 AM -0700 7/7/00, Jo Hart wrote: >Not to mention Harry Potter. At 9:33 AM -0400 07/07/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >(Why do I feel like I just admitted something horrible...) Well. . . You see. . . };;;> (This is partially Genevieve "Maya"'s faul. . . Er ideas, as it is mine. };;;> ) Given: J.K. Rowling; Author, and quite-quite Human. In fact, he's never really been subjegated to any non-corporeal-in-origin influences. (Anyone saying otherwise, just doesn't get the fact that Humans are God's favorates.) Results: Any number of things can come from this, especially if you think in In Nomine terms. 1) The HP series of books has coincedently run across a touchy subject, namely Sorcery. This certainly has thrust the Author to the forefront of several Celestial and Ethereal attentions. No doubt that Blandine, and to some extent Yves too, have sent Celestials to protect the Author from any threats. Laurence and Dominic might have trouble accepting this; and Gabriel will just smile knowingly, scream loudly, and set something ablaze. (Any other angelic opinions are the realm of the creative GM, like yourselves.) 2) The myserious 'Dozen' have a vested interest, since the HP series of books promotes Ethical and Moral use of Sorcery. Take that as you will. 3) Hatiphus (you remember her, right?), has convinced herself that she had something to do with this. Taken in a certain light, the HP Series of books is currently promoting the Word of Sorcery like nothing before. Especially when you're a demon who has a portion of the True Symphony playing in your head 24-7; needless to say, she's quite-quite batty. Now, if she could only just get the Author to start promoting the positive aspects of selling your soul to Hell. . . Closing: Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. I'm certain over a dozen different ideas can spin forth from this, and I'm not about to explore them _all_. I need time to think of other things, ya'know? };;;> Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 15:21:17 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: All the Fuss about Harry Potter (WAS: IN> Khalid and Faith) "Tafka J." wrote: > Given: > J.K. Rowling; Author, and quite-quite Human. In fact, he's never really > been subjegated to any non-corporeal-in-origin influences. She. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:30:45 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: Re: All the Fuss about Harry Potter (WAS: IN> Khalid and Faith) At 3:16 PM -0500 07/09/00, Tafka J. wrote: > J.K. Rowling; [...] In fact, he's never really [...] I stand corrected. _She's_ never really. . . (Therefore I show my true colors, that I've never read the books. Really, I have no interest too, until the consumer commercialism sourounding them firmly dies down.) . o O (I am Jack's fan-boi urges being supressed.) Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:36:28 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A look at Lilim From: "David Rodemaker" > > You know, as a matter of clarification she's the Human Princess of Freedom > in GURPS IN. The other question that I have never seen asked or answered- > Can Lilith make anything else? Or is it just Lilim? I favor that > interpretation myself and the more I think about I do think I like the all > Lilim are Lilith's actual children concept. I would say that, even as the other Princes are unable to create Lilim, Lilith is unable to make anything else. Hmmm, I think I may just have to play around with the concept of Eve, Archangel of Women, creating a choir to balance the Lilim... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:44:38 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> A look at Lilim > Hmmm, I think I may just have to play around with the concept of Eve, > Archangel of Women, creating a choir to balance the Lilim... That's a little narrow. Maybe you should call her the Archangel of Yin. ;-) Of course, Eli might have an *angel* of Women working for him. That's the typical heirarchy in most fertility religions, anyway... women tend to be strongly associated with creationist forces. Hey, Adam and Eve had kids. Those kids had kids. Wouldn't it be whacky for some demons to come across some 10+ force human who literally wrestles them to a stand-still? Descendents of Seth and Cain... erm. I said a naughty word. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:53:13 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A look at Lilim From: "ben" > > Hmmm, I think I may just have to play around with the concept of Eve, > > Archangel of Women, creating a choir to balance the Lilim... > > That's a little narrow. Maybe you should call her the Archangel of Yin. ;-) Nah, I was just borrowing that from the original French game. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:32:28 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Perspective on the Fall Well here's my opinion on Novalis the Archangel of Flowers.....and indeed all angels who were alive 23000 B.C. Novalis did her part during the Fall; maybe she was a medic (some flowers have medicinal properties), maybe with sheer abject horror she protected against those that her old friends had become, for all we know she might have been there flamming sword hacking with the rest of them (sheering). However the fact remains putting this in perspective that for approximately at least ten billion years Novalis and Andrepaulus were likely lovers, Lucifer every morning never forgot to turn on the sun for her creations, Asmodeus...well i don't know what he did but I think he probably gave alot of advice on arrangements. Kobal made her laugh and laugh and laugh all the live long day. THAT IS A FREAKING LONG TIME. Michael takes this betrayal personally....as did Uriel and David (though not to the point of affirming everything God's will to the point you were not but it as they did). Metatron was their friend and so was everyone else in the war-to them Lucifer and his lot are beyond redemption. You may argue they believe in redemption but may I point out I sincerely doubt they believe in or would accept Lucifer if he stopped on their doorstep and offered his hand to say his sorry. They're very angry at the Demon bands and want revenge. As Superior seeing every instance of war, holocost, rape, torture, atrocity, bullying and the like I think they righteously believe in Armagedon because their foe's deaths in their mind will bring back peace, the old Heaven, everyone getting along...this nightmare can end. Novalis on the other had is a bit more perplexed and so is Blandine-they're Cherubs after all. These were their friends, lovers, mothers, fathers, and children! (angelically speaking) How can they do this?! I mean shouldn't they try reasoning first (she's not stupid, she understand she'll lose others if they don't protect themselves or others)? Let us never forget that for the very old demons and all the fallen and not hellborn-this is a very personal Civil War over slavery and liberation, culture vs. unity (except the lines are muddled as to whose representing what). Most newer angels likely can't understand why they would want a murderer back....however if one was your wife before she lost it may make some more sense. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 18:08:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> I'm thinking of changing from digest to post What the above says. I'm thinking of switching over to receiving the posts as they come in, rather than waiting for the digest. Anybody have a strong opinion, one way or the other? Morgan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1705 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.