From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jul 12 19:31:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07905 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:31:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id TAA24588 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:30:10 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:30:10 -0500 Message-Id: <200007130030.TAA24588@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1710 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, July 12 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1710 In this digest: Re: IN> A fine example of the Game in practice... Re: IN> Re: Origins (very OT) Re: IN> A fine example of the Game in practice... Re: IN> Mariel, Meserach, and a Very Empty Tummy Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. NOT a complaint. Re: IN> Lilim Re: IN> Mariel, Meserach, and a Very Empty Tummy Re: IN> Lilim IN> Re> Origins IN> Haagenti's Tummy Re: IN> Haagenti's Tummy Re: IN> Re> Origins IN> Christian In Nomine Re: IN> Haagenti's Tummy Re: IN> Lilim Re: IN> Lilim Re: IN> Lilim IN> Humorous, yet still useful, Song Re: IN> Haagenti's Fate Re: IN> A fine example of the Game in practice... Re: IN> Christian In Nomine Re: IN> Haagenti's Tummy Re: IN> Lilim Re: IN> Lilim Re: IN> Christian In Nomine Re: IN> Lilim Re: IN> Haagenti's Tummy Re: IN> Christian In Nomine Re: IN> Christian In Nomine RE: IN> Mariel, Meserach, and a Very Empty Tummy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:36:51 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> A fine example of the Game in practice... > > >http://salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/07/12/protective_services/index.html > >Personally, I've never heard anything good about CPS. If someone needs >the Game to harrass humans for a while, they would probably be a good >agency to use. > That was not harrassment. Now, my sister is training to be a social worker at the moment -- actually she's waiting for her exam results to see if she is now qualified -- so I've seen a little of the other side of this. Social services scare people. A lot. Vick did a placement which involved working with the elderly which was quite heart-breaking at times. Every visit she made, even though she was just a student, people were _convinced_ that she was going to sign a chit and have them taken away to be put into a home. It doesn't matter how many times the social worker says "No, really, we don't want to take you away from your home. We just want to see what we can provide to help you." They don't believe it. And how do you think a social worker (or the press, once they get hold of it) would feel if they'd investigated a reported case of child neglect, filed it away, and then found that something really horrible had happened to the child? They don't have a choice but to investigate reports. I'm sure the woman who wrote that article was really stressed out by the experience, but she was told that the social services didn't want to take her baby away. (Actually, investigating such reports can lead to women being correctly diagnosed and treated for post-natal depression -- AND the baby isn't taken away.) They can certainly be heavy handed, and they have the sorts of powers (to take children away, have people sectioned etc.) that quite rightly make people nervous -- so it'd be a great front for the Game in IN, but that article was unbalanced and emotive. I've noticed that Salon like doing this, which is why I stopped reading it. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:57:20 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Re: Origins (very OT) - --On Tuesday, July 11, 2000 21:40 -0400 Bull wrote: > > I'll be at Origins and probably spending a LOT of my time hanging out > at the FASA booth, dealing with Andon's incompitence, or running > stuff for the Shadowrun Tournament at Origins... > Cool. Say hello to my team decker while you're there. Big guy, blond, fairly quiet. VERY good at what he does. (And skipping this week's session to go to Origins! *jealousy*) Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:34:04 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> A fine example of the Game in practice... Emily Dresner wrote: > > http://salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/07/12/protective_services/index.html > > Personally, I've never heard anything good about CPS. If someone needs > the Game to harrass humans for a while, they would probably be a good > agency to use. I don't see what CPS did wrong in this case. They received a report of abuse -- they have no way of knowing whether or not its spurious, so they have to investigate it. Did they harrass this woman, or treat her unfairly? No. They conducted an investigation and found no evidence of abuse. Yes, it was stressful for her, for obvious reasons, but the one to be getting angry at is the busybody aunt. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:33:32 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Meserach, and a Very Empty Tummy At 4:56 -0400 7/12/00, Laurent wrote: >Question about the Limbo. Can the Celestial Song of Tongues be used to send a message from/to Limbo? I believe the answer is yes. And you can also send a short message in with Essence, *without* using the Song, as long as you know the person's true name or know them well (I believe those are the requirements -- I'm quoting from memory). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:47:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. NOT a complaint. At 3:54 PM -0700 7/11/00, Casca wrote: >On Tue, 11 July 2000, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Wrong -- the introduction to the list specifically states that SJGames >> has the right to _archive_ the things -- that's the digest, and the >> archives thereof. The INC is not mentioned as having that right, >> and since I'm not sure of the status... > >Then the next logical course of action is to go through the INC Oh, bah, you're making that far more complicated than it needs to be. Look, my comment was, essentially, meant to be: "Take the batch you intend to HTML. Put titles and authors in a single message. Post message to list. Wait 1-2 days. If no objections, put on INC." If someone posts-and-runs, well, hey, we can't solve everything. If they object later, the piece can be removed. _THAT_ is common courtesy. (Or however the heck that's spelled, since it never looks right to me.) And when it comes right down to it, copyright is legalized courtesy, in my book. (Which is why it's such a black art...) I'm also looking into whether I can modify the Welcome message such that posting to the list gives explicit permission to have stuff mined for the INC, just as it gives explicit permission to put stuff in the digest forever and aye. If I can, well, the Welcome message is 2 years out of date anyway and this state of affairs shouldn't last _too_ much longer. If I can't, then a list-notification would seem to cover the problem with minimal difficulties -- what would it take, five minutes of cut-and-paste? - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:39:46 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim At 4:15 PM -0400 7/10/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >>The people authorized to _create_ canon are few, and none of them, forgive >>me my bluntness, are you. > >Yes ergo why I suggested it. No offense intended to the lovely people who >do it. Okay, that's fine, but in the interests of not confusing people who might be new to the list, please don't use the phrasing: "In canon, I do X" or other varients of it. The only people who should be saying that are: * People referencing existing canon, preferably with a book citation at least, and a page-reference prefered. * Karakash (sometimes after touching base with me to make sure we agree). * Me. * Steve Jackson. If someone is not one of those four categories, then I will lay down the Line Editor Smack every time I see that someone implying that they are creating canon or are authorized to create canon. (Even authors tend to, appropriately, preface their comments with "Here's something I hope will be canon someday." Or some similiar phrase to indicate it's deuterocanoical right now at best.) In other words, use "In My Campaign," "I would like it if," "I think it would be interesting if," or other variations of "This is my take on things, but not canon." If you want something to be considered "free for authors to use," include a comment somewhere such as "(Feel free to use this, everyone!)" >>Feel free in your campaign, but in canon, those who have a reason to >>research such things generally believe there are less than a dozen >>alive in Heaven. In canon, there are 1.5 Bright Lilim named. Mira, >>Bright Lilim of Dreams, and in the Liber Servitorum, "Dee," Bright >>Lilim of Creation in service to Flowers. > >Really? I wasn't so sure any real impliance was made. This is in the IPG and/or FotM, in the places where Bright Lilim are discussed. I'd quote it, but for the baby-on-chest-can't-reach-books problem. In the main book, it says they are very very rare. - --Elizabeth McCoy, In Nomine Line Editor (arcangel@io.com) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:49:22 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Meserach, and a Very Empty Tummy At 9:56 AM +0100 7/12/00, Laurent wrote: >Question about the Limbo. Can the Celestial Song of Tongues be used to send a message from/to Limbo? > >I have H&H at home, but didn't have time to read it yet. Silly. The answer, happily listed in H&H, is "You can use Celestial Tongues to send Essence and a message _into_ Limbo, but not _out_ of it." - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:01:07 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Does a Lilim have to let a person know that she's fulfilling their Need or can she just do it and collect the Gaes? If the Lilim sees a Need/6, and the person hasn't got a Need/6, would the Lilim detect a lesser Need or would her resonance pick up nothing? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:10:50 -0700 From: tcp@zoomnet.net Subject: IN> Re> Origins >There is a Christian roleplaying web-zine called >"The Way, the Truth, and the Dice," at: Saying the contrast is a bit high is most likely the understatement of the year my friend. Unfortunately again it seems like the bearers of "God's word" have lost the forrest for the trees. While actual In Nomine offers a chance to examine divine issues by linking the divine to the Corporal-this goes far overboard and unfortunately renders the game unplayable. (I take exceptional offense at the necessitate that Angels cannot enjoy grateful dead music, cannot sin without falling ) As a minister I feel the need to write my own "perfect" Christian version of In Nomine-though in all likelihood it wouldn't be very different from In Nomine with a dash Dogma. Oh well :-) - -Charlemagne - ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:17:37 -0700 From: tcp@zoomnet.net Subject: IN> Haagenti's Tummy I'm not sure I particularly like the idea that Haagenti's tummy is a gateway to Limbo....while it might explain why he's perpetually starving (no matter how much I eat-I'm still hungry!) it doesn't really explain how he could eat his way to the top save by removal. In my mind Haagenti's stomach however might make an interesting Principality of Hell by itself however-those he doesn't chew down to their base essence are imprisoned in his gastic intenstine.... (I think this is based off the Afterlife video game) where they suffer eternal acidic dissolvement, rumbling small intestine breaking up, and the like to have their essence delivered to Haagenti... Only it works on demons too. Needless to say the Principality of Haagenti's tummy does not smell too good. - -Charlemagne - ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:23:49 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Haagenti's Tummy >From: tcp@zoomnet.net > >I'm not sure I particularly like the idea that Haagenti's tummy >is a gateway to Limbo....while it might explain why he's perpetually >starving (no matter how much I eat-I'm still hungry I think having _Oblivion_ in his stomach could explain why he's always hungry. Bets are on for Mariel not being actually dead in there ... jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:30:56 -0500 From: "Erich S. Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> Re> Origins > As a minister I feel the need to write my own "perfect" Christian > version of In Nomine-though in all likelihood it wouldn't be > very different from In Nomine with a dash Dogma. Oh, like David Edlestien's masterful "Jack Chick In Nomine"? (That was a joke, for those who may be written-humor deficient.) :) If you haven't seen it yet, then quit lurking around your e-mail box and go here: http://www.amadan.org/Innomine/Jack_Chick.html - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Demon of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, Impudite of The Game - ------------------------- Touched by an Impudite http://www.impudite.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:39:06 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Christian In Nomine tcp@zoomnet.net wrote: > Saying the contrast is a bit high is most likely the understatement > of the year my friend. Unfortunately again it seems like the > bearers of "God's word" have lost the forrest for the trees. > While actual In Nomine offers a chance to examine divine issues > by linking the divine to the Corporal-this goes far overboard > and unfortunately renders the game unplayable. Personally, I would find a pure fundamentalist Christian game pretty boring, not so much because of the high contrast, but because there's no real conflict. (That Heaven will win the War is a foregone conclusion, and in a battle between angels and demons, demons can never achieve more than perhaps a temporary stopgap victory.) Notice that the rules in the author's article basically made any believing Christian all but immune to diabolical powers. This is the worldview espoused by fundamentalists, who really believe that any Christian could send a Prince of Hell packing just by invoking Jesus or waving a Bible. However, I think it would not make for a very interesting game, unless you confine it entirely to morality plays, where the PCs are playing angels trying to sway individual humans towards their destiny. > (I take exceptional offense at the necessitate that Angels cannot > enjoy grateful dead music, One suspects that was a bit tongue-in-cheek. > cannot sin without falling Well, I think that the traditional view of angels is that they are holy and incapable of sinning -- thus, if they do sin, by definition they can no longer be angels. > or there was no> divine inspiration for Muhammed-though that latter is just a> bit of personal taste>) A fundie Christian cosmology would naturally regard all other religions as false. Personally, I think the suggestions I wrote in the Game Master's Guide provide a more viable framework for a Christian game. I suggested that believers (however you define "believer" -- could be anyone who's born-again in a fundie setting, or anyone who's been confessed recently and not sinned since, in a Catholic one) be treated as having the Blessed advantage (which makes them highly resistant but not immune to diabolical powers). And I pointed out the pitfalls of using a strict fundamentalist Biblical setting -- it may be true to many peoples' beliefs, but it kind of detracts from the whole point of In Nomine. IN is based on the assumption that both sides experience doubt and uncertainty, and that the War is a REAL conflict -- angels may be certain in their hearts of eventual victory, but the *players* shouldn't be. But the possibility that the Devil could actually win is fundamentally incompatible with most modern Christian worldviews. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:36:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Haagenti's Tummy > >I'm not sure I particularly like the idea that Haagenti's tummy > >is a gateway to Limbo....while it might explain why he's perpetually > >starving (no matter how much I eat-I'm still hungry > > > I think having _Oblivion_ in his stomach could explain why he's always > hungry. Bets are on for Mariel not being actually dead in there ... > And here I was believing that Haagenti subsisted entirely on sliders and cheap Chinese food. :) - - Em (Mmmmm White Castle.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:34:47 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Lilim Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > "In canon, I do X" or other varients of it. The only people who should > be saying that are: > > * People referencing existing canon, preferably with a book citation at > least, and a page-reference prefered. > * Karakash (sometimes after touching base with me to make sure we agree). > * Me. > * Steve Jackson. ...in reverse order of authority! =) Although, I've seen Steve revise his opinion at times in response to reasoned arguments from 'lower' in the hierarchy (as has Beth). Sometimes we all have looked at printed canon and said "D'oh! We have a rule for that!" ;) An additional note is that totally new canon (i.e. stuff for which no rules currently exist) has to be approved by Beth or Steve. Usually both in tandem for large things (like the Grigori resonance). Don't let this stop you from posting good ideas, though! I've seen several things pop up on the list (by various clever people) that have made it into canon eventually. Now if I can just get some time to finalize my construction rules for non-human vessels. The basic ideas are good, but they need polishing... =) - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:38:35 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Lilim ben wrote: > > Does a Lilim have to let a person know that she's fulfilling their Need or > can she just do it and collect the Gaes? The person has to know and, at least implicitly, accept the favor. > > If the Lilim sees a Need/6, and the person hasn't got a Need/6, would the > Lilim detect a lesser Need or would her resonance pick up nothing? Unless the person truly needs NOTHING, than any successful use of the Resonance will pick up something. Even a totally content person has a few Need/1 lying around (a bit of chocolate, a foot rub, etc.) Possibly even something they didn't know they needed. So, I'd go with the next lower Need. A kind GM could even give 'change' in the form of several lesser Needs that adds up to the roll. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:56:23 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim > > Does a Lilim have to let a person know that she's fulfilling their Need or > > can she just do it and collect the Gaes? > > The person has to know and, at least implicitly, accept > the favor. Does the person have to know that they will be expected to repay the favor? Or can the Lilim twist words and appear to be giving a gift? I can see Lilim having huge difficulties. "Here, I will give you this. All you have to do is agree to perform an unspecified favor at an unspecified date." Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:25:35 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Humorous, yet still useful, Song I like it. It will be a good base to have my players start making up their own songs to the Symphony. (especially since one of them works for Orc) - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:17:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Haagenti's Fate On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > << IMC, Haagenti's Fate is to devour Lucifer, take control of Hell, and > eventually devour all of Hell itself. Without Hell, destinies and fates > and good and evil will all become irrelevant, leaving humanity no way to > be judged. > > The Symphony becomes a joke. >> > > I don't know. The Symphony did alright without Hell for billions of years. > It's really a very new place, cosmicly speaking. Depends on how you look at it. To me, all those billions of years were just preparation for the arrival of humans. Soon after humans arrived, Lucifer led the fall, Hell was created, and the Free Will of the humans suddenly became incredibly important. Before the humans, there was no NEED for Hell. God's Plan (IMO and IMC) all along was to create beings with free will and test them, see what they choose. The Fall was preordained...God pushed Lucifier's buttons JUST right to make him choose to Fall, because God NEEDED Hell. The Symphony did alright without it for a long time, but now it's absolutely crucial to God's plan for humanity. The angels would never let humanity be wiped out, but wouldn't be able to catch on to HELL being wiped out...in fact, many of the angel would be happy to see it happen, not realizing that without Hell, humanity's Free Will is meaningless. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! GET SOME SLACK, CREATE SOME SLACK, OR DIE THESE ARE YOUR *ONLY* CHOICES -- St. Bubba ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:38:27 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A fine example of the Game in practice... From: "David Edelstein" > > Yes, it was stressful for her, for obvious reasons, but the one > to be getting angry at is the busybody aunt. Completely agreed on this one, David. A proto-adventure seed is forming around this even as we speak. I just need to decide which Prince would be most likely to assign a Shedite to use CPS as a weapon against Christopher... (It beats sitting around and fuming about what the aunt in question did, at least.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:46:51 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Christian In Nomine Okay, stopped fuming and had to take this to pieces. - --On Wednesday, July 12, 2000 12:39 -0500 David Edelstein wrote: > Personally, I would find a pure fundamentalist Christian game > pretty boring, not so much because of the high contrast, but because > there's no real conflict. (That Heaven will win the War is a foregone > conclusion, and in a battle between angels and demons, demons can > never achieve more than perhaps a temporary stopgap victory.) Oh so, so wrong. With the DPs and the rest of the host of hell in the position of KNOWING that the war is already lost, the fighting becomes much, much worse. A 'guerilla war' which ammounts to saying, "Okay, fine, if you're not going to be reasonable and do things my way, and I'm screwed anyway, I'm going to take as much of your precious creation with me as I can." I keep thinking of my HS basketball team, pissed because they knew they weren't going to win a regional game, wading into the visitors' stands to beat up their fans, and planting pipe bombs on their bus. The most dangerous thing in any world is a cornered animal with nothing to lose, because they'll do *anything*. > Notice > that the rules in the author's article basically made any believing > Christian all but immune to diabolical powers. This is the worldview > espoused by fundamentalists, who really believe that any Christian > could send a Prince of Hell packing just by invoking Jesus or waving > a Bible. ...if they had perfect faith. Nobody's got perfect faith. Heck, you have to go a long way to find real faith, period, instead of lip service that quiets a noisy conscience. An invocation of faith is only effective *to the degree that you believe it is*. That belief would be shaken to its foundations by a manifested DP. Or a real demon. Heck, I know people whose faith wavers if the streetlights don't turn their way and they're late for work. People are too easy to rattle that way. =) > However, I think it would not make for a very interesting > game, unless you confine it entirely to morality plays, where the PCs > are playing angels trying to sway individual humans towards their > destiny. Big problem. The vast majority of humans don't *want* their bright destiny. It implies that there's some overarching THING going on beyond their ken that they have no control of. People HATE that. People hate that so much that they'll shut their eyes and probe on blindly towards destruction rather than accept a solution that wounds their pride, or their personal world-view. They'd rather go to hell under their own power than anywhere else under someone else's. I still have flashbacks to this sort of thing, from working at runaway/women's shelters. > A fundie Christian cosmology would naturally regard all > other religions as false. Geez, stop spitting! That's not confined to Christianity by the by... > IN > is based on the assumption that both sides experience doubt and > uncertainty, and that the War is a REAL conflict -- angels may be > certain in their hearts of eventual victory, but the *players* > shouldn't be. But the possibility that the Devil could actually win is > fundamentally incompatible with most modern Christian worldviews. Of course the Devil can win! Not the entire war, but many, many battles in a sort of scorched-earth kinda way, losing at the very end but in the meantime taking away something precious that can never, ever be replaced. I agree that the *humans* should never be in on the real nature of the war, though. Let them come up with their own ideas, and pick sides (actively or by inaction) based on that. Remember in the context of our lifetimes, it sure looks like a loss for the home team. I still subscribe to the idea that humans do more damning than demons. To bring things full circle, the war, even in a Christian context, is still a REAL war with REAL losses. And the diabolical side has all the advantages in the Corporeal. Both sides - angels and demons - have a reason to be desperate and do desperate, insane things. That doesn't sound like a boring IN variant at all. Though it'd probably be damned as "too high contrast". Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Almost as bad as the flashbacks I get now from doing MS support.") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:48:48 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Haagenti's Tummy - --On Wednesday, July 12, 2000 13:36 -0400 Emily Dresner wrote: > > And here I was believing that Haagenti subsisted entirely on sliders > and cheap Chinese food. :) > Same thing. You eat one, you're hungry again an hour later. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Can't eat just one.") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:29:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, ben wrote: > > > Does a Lilim have to let a person know that she's fulfilling their Need > or > > > can she just do it and collect the Gaes? > > > > The person has to know and, at least implicitly, accept > > the favor. > > Does the person have to know that they will be expected to repay the favor? > Or can the Lilim twist words and appear to be giving a gift? > > I can see Lilim having huge difficulties. > > "Here, I will give you this. All you have to do is agree to perform an > unspecified favor at an unspecified date." IMC, the Lilim doesn't have to *outright state* that the person will owe her a favor, but she cannot in anyway state or imply that it's a freebie. Also, she can't narrow down the repayment terms, or she'll have to abide by them (so she can't say, "You can just pay me back the money", or that's ALL she can geas them to do). "Hey, pal, you look down on your luck... lost your job, didja?" "Yeah, how can you tell?" "I've been there, man, I've been there. I know what it's like, and I want to help you out. Here, it's your lucky day today...." "Wow! Oh my god, are you serious? W-what's the catch?" "Catch? Don't be silly. Use it to get back on your feet, pal. You can just owe me one, okay?" "Wow... you must be an angel...." - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! Want to hold up a bank in Latin? "Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam." (I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:08:28 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim At 11:01 AM -0600 7/12/00, ben wrote: >Does a Lilim have to let a person know that she's fulfilling their Need or >can she just do it and collect the Gaes? She has to let the person know that she _has_ fulfilled the Need, somehow. Doing it anon may or may not work, when she comes to call it in. And note that someone can _refuse_ a Lilim's favor! (This may require inventiveness, if it was something like, "A Clean House" and you're just _presented_ with one, somehow!) I think this is addressed somewhat in the IPG, if nowhere else then in the Lilim-think-X-about-Elohim paragraph. >If the Lilim sees a Need/6, and the person hasn't got a Need/6, would the >Lilim detect a lesser Need or would her resonance pick up nothing? A lesser Need, or I've seen the house-rule that she'd get a combination of Needs adding to 6. She'd also know that she couldn't find a Need/6. Or the GM might give a Need/mongo, such as "World Peace." At 11:56 AM -0600 7/12/00, ben wrote: >Does the person have to know that they will be expected to repay the favor? >Or can the Lilim twist words and appear to be giving a gift? I am planning to address this in future canon... What I _plan_ to have be the case is that the poor sucker does not _necessarily_ need to know that it's "just a little favor, you can owe me later" or whatever words the Lilim uses to invoke The Guilt Trip Of Debt that will lay the grounds for the hook. However, if she makes it seem _too_ much a debt, then either the person becomes more likely to blow all his Essence rebelling when she comes to call in the hook ("You said it was free! No way!") or, sometimes, ineffably -- It Doesn't Work. (Make sure those last three words send chills up your Lilim's spine.) Basically, what Lilim trade off of is making someone's feeling of debt rise up and overwhelm them. That activates the hook (if you're a mundane, at least, that's probably what it feels like). If you've previously worked hard to _defuse_ the feeling of debt, you're shooting yourself in the foot! The best way for a Lilim to do something tends to be: "Here, let me help." "You're sure? You can really help me? But how can I repay you?" "Oh, don't worry about it -- you can just do me a favor sometime." >I can see Lilim having huge difficulties. > >"Here, I will give you this. All you have to do is agree to perform an >unspecified favor at an unspecified date." That would be a Lilim trying to make a hook into a full Geas -- see "Promises" in the Lilim section of the IPG... - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:12:15 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Christian In Nomine Marc Bowden wrote: > The most dangerous thing in any world is a cornered animal with > nothing to lose, because they'll do *anything*. True enough, but all the demons CAN do in such a setting is tempt and corrupt. There'd be little or no physical confrontation, and diabolical powers vs. angels and Soldiers of God would be pretty much a wash. Calabite: "I invoke my demonic resonance to shred his puny mortal flesh!" Soldier of God: "I pray to Lord Jesus to protect me." GM: "A glowing shield seems to appear before the mortal. The demon's resonance rebounds from it. Take dissonance." Calabite: "Aaarrgh!!" Balseraph: "I tell the mortal that I'm tying up the little girl and throwing her in the trunk of my car because we're filming a movie, and he should get off the set." Soldier of God: "I am empowered with the Word of Jesus Christ our Saviour, fiend! Your lies cannot decieve me! In His name, I command you to release that child!" GM: "Take dissonance." Balseraph: "Aaarrgh!!" Shedite: "I try to possess him." GM: "Sorry, he's a born-again Christian. You feel an excruciating burning sensation and are blinded by holy light as you're repelled. Take dissonance." Shedite: "Aaarrgh!!" etc. > ...if they had perfect faith. Nobody's got perfect faith. Heck, you > have to go a long way to find real faith, period, instead of lip > service that quiets a noisy conscience. Sure, but presumably angels and Soldiers of God have perfect faith. > Geez, stop spitting! Huh? >>> That's not confined to Christianity by the by... All religions do tend to assume they're right and everyone else is wrong. Fundamentalist Christianity is one of the few that assumes everyone else is going to hell except them, however. None of the other major world religions do. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:21:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim At 3:08 PM -0400 7/12/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >[...]. However, if she makes >it seem _too_ much a debt, Too much a FREEBIE. Argh. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:09:31 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Haagenti's Tummy From: "Emily Dresner" > > And here I was believing that Haagenti subsisted entirely on sliders Nah, they keep teleporting out of his stomach... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:37:42 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Christian In Nomine - --On Wednesday, July 12, 2000 14:12 -0500 David Edelstein wrote: > Marc Bowden wrote: >> The most dangerous thing in any world is a cornered animal with >> nothing to lose, because they'll do *anything*. > > True enough, but all the demons CAN do in such a setting is tempt and > corrupt. There'd be little or no physical confrontation, and > diabolical powers vs. angels and Soldiers of God would be pretty much > a wash. > > Calabite: "I invoke my demonic resonance to shred his puny mortal > flesh!" > Soldier of God: "I pray to Lord Jesus to protect me." > GM: "A glowing shield seems to appear before the mortal. The demon's > resonance rebounds from it. Take dissonance." > Calabite: "Aaarrgh!!" > Depends on two factors. How long does the Soldier believe the shield will hold? And against what force? Was he fast enough to call for help before the big angry chipper-shredder there got to him? Roll for it. > Balseraph: "I tell the mortal that I'm tying up the little girl and > throwing her in the trunk of my car because we're filming a movie, and > he should get off the set." > Soldier of God: "I am empowered with the Word of Jesus Christ our > Saviour, fiend! Your lies cannot decieve me! In His name, I command > you to release that child!" > GM: "Take dissonance." > Balseraph: "Aaarrgh!!" > I'm sorry. I can't stop laughing at that image! Okay, I'm better now. Points: 1.) How does the soldier know the demon is lying? 2.) I'd be vaugely ammused if he tried this trick one too many times and it backfired on him. (Director: "Cut! What the hell was that?" Soldier: "Uh...") 3.) And if God just said, "Um, no. Work it out yourself."? Well, I imagine the balseraph hasn't been in a good scrap in ages.... I never suggested that any invocation of faith gave someone the ability to command demons, beyond the ability to drive them away.[1] That would lead to all sorts of ridiculous things....and oddly, the temptation to sliiiiiide towards your fate by thinking of them as your personal servants. God's not going to back that - but the demons might, to keep the illusion going until you've damned yourself so far... > Shedite: "I try to possess him." > GM: "Sorry, he's a born-again Christian. You feel an excruciating > burning sensation and are blinded by holy light as you're repelled. > Take dissonance." > Shedite: "Aaarrgh!!" > Uh... No. Their faith might enable them to resist better, but EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING, I don't care who, has *something* a Shedite can hook into. And recognizing it for what it is, I understand, is a problem. 'sides, sometimes that voice is saying something you want to hear. > >> ...if they had perfect faith. Nobody's got perfect faith. Heck, you >> have to go a long way to find real faith, period, instead of lip >> service that quiets a noisy conscience. > > Sure, but presumably angels and Soldiers of God have perfect faith. > Angels *know* the truth. Soldiers I'm a little hazier on, but still being (nominally) human, they're open to doubt, cynicism, despair, etc. In the average guy (for example, me) faith is a thing that waxes and wanes. There might be a minimum level it'll get to, depending on how often you take it out, shine it up, and reevaluate it, but it's not always 100% at that high point. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Remember, anything *obvious* in front of the Ords isn't kosher.") [1] I honestly don't know how this would work in the Corporeal realm. Maybe something not too dissimilar from turning a vampire...? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:38:12 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Christian In Nomine From: "Marc Bowden" > --On Wednesday, July 12, 2000 14:12 -0500 David Edelstein > wrote: > > > Shedite: "I try to possess him." > > GM: "Sorry, he's a born-again Christian. You feel an excruciating > > burning sensation and are blinded by holy light as you're repelled. > > Take dissonance." > > Shedite: "Aaarrgh!!" > > Uh... No. Their faith might enable them to resist better, but EVERY > SINGLE HUMAN BEING, I don't care who, has *something* a Shedite can > hook into. In the article that inspired this thread, Shedim are absolutely unable to possess a Christian under any circumstances. Same thing with all the other demonic abilities. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:37:21 +1000 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Mariel, Meserach, and a Very Empty Tummy Aaron wrote: > > Question about the Limbo. Can the Celestial Song of Tongues be used to > send a message from/to Limbo? > > Yep. 15 words per point of Essence, according to H&H. Without the Song, 5 > words can be sent per point of essence. I don't think that's technically correct. The CSoT can be used to send messages in, but it can't be used to send messages out. Once you're in Limbo, no-one knows if you're actually there, and they're sending in their messages blind. Leath. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1710 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.