From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jul 13 14:41:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02130 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:41:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA08713 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:39:39 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:39:39 -0500 Message-Id: <200007131939.OAA08713@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1711 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, July 13 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1711 In this digest: Re: IN> Humorous, yet still useful, Song Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. NOT a complaint. IN> A overlook of Christian In Nomine IN> Lilim Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. NOT a complaint. IN> Hell's metaphysical composition This is an Odd One, even by my flexible standards... (Was: Re: IN> Lilim) Re: IN> Mariel, Meserach, and a Very Empty Tummy Re: IN> Lilim Re: IN> A overlook of Christian In Nomine Re: IN> Canon/Cannon (was Lilim) IN> Fantasy Island Re: IN> A overlook of Christian In Nomine IN> Way, Truth & Dice Re: IN> Canon/Cannon (was Lilim) Re: IN> Way, Truth & Dice Re: IN> Canon/Cannon (was Lilim) Re: IN> Way, Truth & Dice Re: IN> Lilim Re: IN> Fantasy Island Re: IN> Fantasy Island Re: IN> Fantasy Island IN> Fairly odd question: possibly shading OT? Re: IN> Fairly odd question: possibly shading OT? Re: IN> Fairly odd question: possibly shading OT? Re: IN> Fairly odd question: possibly shading OT? Re: IN> Fairly odd question: possibly shading OT? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Jul 2000 17:46:09 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Humorous, yet still useful, Song On Wed, 12 July 2000, "Charles Phipps" wrote: > > I like it. Thanks, so do I. :) Writing the gestures and incantations was the most fun, and I was hoping that level of detail would have been put into the Canticorum. Alas.... > (especially since one of them works for Orc) Servitors of Lightning and Technology should probably get a bonus its performance. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 2000 18:12:03 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. NOT a complaint. On Wed, 12 July 2000, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Oh, bah, you're making that far more complicated than it needs to be. Really? I don't think so. If we're going to talk about dubious legalities, let's talk about ALL of them. And if an author hasn't given his/her permission to have an article posted, then that article is posted in infringement of copyright, and therefore illegal. This opens up the possibility of lawsuit, as you mentioned earlier, and therefore it behooves SJG to get said authors' permission ASAP. To do otherwise is hypocritical. > Look, my comment was, essentially, meant to be: "Take the batch you intend > to HTML. Put titles and authors in a single message. Post message to list. > Wait 1-2 days. If no objections, put on INC." If you want me to reply to this, let's take it to private email where it belongs. > If someone posts-and-runs, well, hey, we can't solve everything. If > they object later, the piece can be removed. I find this to be at extreme odds with your previously stated position of "If we don't get permission, we can't put it on the INC." > I'm also looking into whether I can modify the Welcome message > such that posting to the list gives explicit permission to have > stuff mined for the INC, just as it gives explicit permission to > put stuff in the digest forever and aye. If I can, well, the > Welcome message is 2 years out of date anyway and this state > of affairs shouldn't last _too_ much longer. Pity it took an Asian Land War to get that ball rolling. > If I can't, then a list-notification would seem to cover the > problem with minimal difficulties -- what would it take, five > minutes of cut-and-paste? Email me privately. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:28:48 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> A overlook of Christian In Nomine Erich S. Arendall wrote: >Oh, like David Edlestien's masterful "Jack Chick In Nomine"? (That was a >joke, for those who may be written-humor deficient.) :) >If you haven't seen it yet, then quit lurking around your e-mail box and go >here: http://www.amadan.org/Innomine/Jack_Chick.html Hehehe I loved Jack Chick In Nomine (though I wish I knew where the name came from) it was truly hilarious as it described the kinduv "grab hold of faith and do not let go until I'm in Heaven" attitude I face ever single day working. Strangely with the whole morality play David Edlestien prophet of RPGs wrote in actually was an intriguing campaign idea though I would gag from the rest of it. Speaking of the master himself.... *DAVID* wrote.... > Personally, I would find a pure fundamentalist Christian game >pretty boring, not so much because of the high contrast, but because >there's no real conflict. (That Heaven will win the War is a foregone >conclusion, and in a battle between angels and demons, demons can never >achieve more than perhaps a temporary stopgap victory.) Notice that the >rules in the author's article basically made any believing Christian all >but immune to diabolical powers. Agreed unfortunately unless you take the option that angels are beings who are immune to changing their minds (basically not unlike Superiors 3 and the ideas of "one momment when you can achieve your destiny or fate) it renders the idea of free will rather pointless. Also I've discovered that a great many people in the idea are sort of in denial that pain, suffering, and the like exist for some reason. A fundementalist Christian (this is not including all members-surprisingly many are more open minded than most-a almost contradiction I know) must face the fact that the Jews as the Chosen people of God were tempted and turned away as all demons. Also faith is high maintenence requiring you to tend it like any fire....and can be willingly put out. >This is the worldview espoused by fundamentalists, who really believe that any Christian could send a >Prince of Hell packing just by invoking Jesus or waving a Bible. However, I think it would not make for a very >interesting game, unless you confine it entirely to morality plays, where the PCs are playing angels trying to >sway individual humans towards their destiny. Again as I said "Touched by an Angel" In Nomine has it's own rewards (surprisingly my players have unknowningly met some of your write ups dear David-thanks). >One suspects that was a bit tongue-in-cheek. As was my own but it was very telling. They closed their mind to the point that Jean as an Archangel of Lighting was completely pointless because he and his angels did nothing because they couldn't inspire. I wrote them about this and other things (though I believe the base there was interesting enough to take note of). If an angel cannot appreciate something beutiful in God's creation then why bother? One would think the high contrast truly good angels would find something beutiful in everything...even the most vile creation of satanic spawn. >Well, I think that the traditional view of angels is that they are holy and incapable of sinning -- thus, if they do >sin, by definition they can no longer be angels. Again something I wrote about is that players are not angelic so they don't know better (and let's face it-the majority of us knowingly and willingly do something wrong at some point in our lives). One would think they would take the time to portray the forgiveness of such an entity. >Personally, I think the suggestions I wrote in the Game Master's Guide >provide a more viable framework for a Christian game I read that and liked that Boss. >But the possibility that the Devil could actually win is fundamentally incompatible with most modern Christian >worldviews. And Khalid's actually. Don't forget. IMWV (in my world view) it's amusing (and somewhat disturbing) to think of Lucifer for game purposes and elsewise is attempting to bring God to his fate and acknowledge that Lucifer for all his works and so forth was right....the universe, humanity, and his angels are flawed so he should simply acknowledge them and their universe as just as pure as the rest of "good". Effectively in my mind the Devil's plan is to make everyone good, happy, God loves us types despite any evil action they can, will, and may take. Why fundementalism occasionally scares me in concept. Why most angels will of course say "God will never do that", Dominic gets noticibly antsy.....why he was so tempted in my campaign because he *IS* God's judgement and he wants the Devil and all his children back no doubt...but acknowledges most must be destroyed. He is the cynical optimist after all. And Lucifer is a Balseraph so no doubt he believes his own propaganda. (boy I jumped alot around through my own beliefs and game terms in that one) >All religions do tend to assume they're right and everyone else is >wrong. Fundamentalist Christianity is one of the few that assumes >everyone else is going to hell except them, however. None of the other >major world religions do. Again why it scares me; It basically smacks of the unfortunate aspect of a cult or the Saddukar from Dune. You say the rest of the universe is dirty and damned and thus all ye do must be okay. - -Charlemagne One crazy minister's rant :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:39:16 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Lilim >Okay, that's fine, but in the interests of not confusing people who >might be new to the list, please don't use the phrasing: >"In canon, I do X" or other varients of it. The only people who should >be saying that are: A thousand Pardons Moinsure Elizabeth that was meant to be "I'd" not I. As one can imagine by reading my Screwtape and Wormwood write ups...I occasionally get fast and loose with my typing skills. It's basically the old "my brain gets away with my typing skills" like inspiration goes faster than you are able to handle. I blame an Ofanite of Eli with a possesion song if I wasn't so sure it ran in the family. >* People referencing existing canon, preferably with a book citation at > least, and a page-reference prefered. Then that would be "in cannon " :-) Sorry I love to nitpick. Sorry Sorry...please go on. >* Karakash (sometimes after touching base with me to make sure we agree). >* Me. >* Steve Jackson. >If someone is not one of those four categories, then I will lay down the >Line Editor Smack every time I see that someone implying that they >are creating canon or are authorized to create canon. (Even authors >tend to, appropriately, preface their comments with "Here's something >I hope will be canon someday." Or some similiar phrase to indicate >it's deuterocanoical right now at best.) While it would certainly be a dream come true to write for In Nomine (it's my favorite game) I understand of course such a situation even for published authors and you have my word I will watch out further in my writings for the kind of mistakes your talking about. >In other words, use "In My Campaign," "I would like it if," "I think >it would be interesting if," or other variations of "This is my take >on things, but not canon." Understandable and good points to be made. Though I can't imagine an imposter claiming such a thing on a list where everyone knows each other effectively. Do you think Dominic has an angel of cannon? Like George Lucas servitor to decide what's real and whats not in Star wars and the like? >If you want something to be considered "free for authors to use," include >a comment somewhere such as "(Feel free to use this, everyone!)" "Will write In nomine for food" seen by Eli. Yeah definately. Basically I subscribe to the opinion though that anything typed up here is rather public format for usage....I mean shouldn't it be? - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:58:06 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> A clarification about this mailing list/INC/Pyramid. NOT a complaint. As point of reference, I'd like to apologize to the list and to Casca for bringing what clearly should have been a private reply to a public forum. Casca deserved more consideration, and other folks on here deserved not to endure bric-a-bracs. Suffice to say, Casca and I are discussing our positions in private e-mail, and my apologies again for any embarassment or discomfort caused. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:50:58 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Hell's metaphysical composition Rev Pee Wee wrote: >Depends on how you look at it. To me, all those billions of years were >just preparation for the arrival of humans. Soon after humans arrived, >Lucifer led the fall, Hell was created, and the Free Will of the humans >suddenly became incredibly important. That depends...this is an idea I'm considering for my campaign that I was curious if I could run by everyone else..... Basically when Yves named Good and Evil....God in response divorced from himself everything was not Good leaving a primordial wickedness and chaos that was festering and boiling....but imprisoned....this became Hell and is more precisley named Ahrimane. Ahrimane as you might guess is as close to an Anti-God as you want get and a possible canidate for release if Lucifer (or whoever) finds the keys. Unaware the ancient Evil is likely to undo all of his brother's creation to sow his own seed. This would imply that Lucifer found Hell and it always existed. Variants on the divorce from god concept also work. >Before the humans, there was no NEED for Hell. God's Plan (IMO and IMC) >all along was to create beings with free will and test them, see what they >choose. The Fall was preordained...God pushed Lucifier's buttons JUST >right to make him choose to Fall, because God NEEDED Hell. Another concept that's amusing is that it's God's basement. "This is where I store all the stuff I don't need but can't bear to get rid of". Pre-Fall it's where he stuck the stuff that he really didn't understand (must...resist...urge...to...make...sexist...joke) God: Hmmmmm what exactly is this Eli? Six year old Eli: It's a Klobberfang! God: Uh what does it do? Six year old Eli: It can eat worlds! Nothing can kill it! It breathes fire and it absolutely will not stop until it's killed everything in creation and burned the rest to crisps. God: Uh huh and what do we do after it's done all that? Six year old Eli: Uh...um......errrr....but it's COOL! God: Uh huh. It goes in the Pile. (note Gehenna means "Place of Waste" in Hebrew) >The Symphony did alright without it for a long time, but now it's >absolutely crucial to God's plan for humanity. The angels would never let >humanity be wiped out, but wouldn't be able to catch on to HELL being >wiped out...in fact, many of the angel would be happy to see it happen, >not realizing that without Hell, humanity's Free Will is meaningless. Yeah, God wants everybody back in my mind but it might take a long long long long long long long long long time. Besides it's their paradise since they choose to live that way (in theory). - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:58:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: This is an Odd One, even by my flexible standards... (Was: Re: IN> Lilim) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:39:46 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim > then I will lay down the Line Editor Smack every time Thanks, Beth. I never would have thought of this, otherwise. Cue evil laughter... ;) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of What? YOUR Dominic Doesn't Have Even A Rudimentary Sense of Humor? Stephanie Elohite Friend of Judgement Angel of Smack Downs Suggested Word Forces: 6 Corporeal Forces: 5 Strength: 12 Agility: 8 Ethereal Forces: 4 Intelligence: 6 Precision: 10 Celestial Forces: 5 Will: 10 Perception: 10 Vessel: young human female/4 Roles: Pro Wrestler/4, Status 4, Charisma +1 (Stephanie Elizabeth "Sic 'em" Mueller) Skills: Chemistry/2, Detect Lies/4, Dodge/3, Emote/1, Fighting/3, Large Weapon/2 (baseball bat), Ranged Weapon/2 (shotgun), Savoir-Faire/2, Tactics/1 Songs: Form (Corporeal/2), Harmony (Ethereal/3), Healing (Corporeal/1), Light (Celestial/4), Motion (Ethereal/3), Shields (All/3), Thunder/2, Tongues (Corporeal/3) Attunements: Elohite of Judgement, Incarnate Law, Heavenly Judgement, Friend of Judgement Angel of Smack Downs: by spending 1 Essence, Stephanie can determine the person most in need of a comeuppance within line of sight. For 3 Essence, she can do the above, and determine the most effective way of administering said reproof. Artifact: a small spray can, showing a man with a stick beating a donkey. It is a relic/4 (Corporeal Song of Might) and a reliquary/4 (can only be used by the relic). Dominic's dissonance requirements are, of course, well known. The one about "ignoring heresy in an angel" usually gets the most airtime, however, as it's a perennial (and quite understandable) source of worries for most of the Host. In fact, an unobservant - well, observer - would assume that Dominic's Servitor rate heresy - hunting as their most difficult job. Servitors of Judgement actually worry more about making sure the punishment fits the crime: after all, that takes finesse, while not ignoring heresy isn't particularly difficult to do. It may be incredibly _unwise_, given the tactical situation, but from a purely mechanical standpoint not ignoring heresy is easy. You either Smite or file a report. Not exactly Halls of Progress research, here. But making an appropriate judgement - and punishment? _That_ can be tricky. Sure, Triads are trained to do it, and many of them do it well, but they're trained to deal with angels, not humans. Dominic can't allow his Servitors to completely ignore mortal affairs, however, so Dominicans often find themselves stuck with trying to adapt celestial rules to corporeal problems. The best of them, having milleniums of experience, can do so with flair, intuition and a good deal of improvisation. Everybody else calls for Stephanie. Stephanie is big on balance and equilibrium, even for her Choir. Strictly speaking, her Word might be more accurately translated as "Providing necessary reproof for an entity's transgressions", but English can be remarkably succinct at times, no? Stephanie isn't very complicated: she sees those in need of karmic adjustment, and provides it at the earliest opportunity. This can make her an irritating companion, as she'll smack down anybody, anywhere, anytime. This includes Soldiers, Saints, Triads, fellow angels, and on one infamous occasion, the Archangel of the Wind (luckily, Janus was in a good mood that day, so he merely drop-kicked her five hundred miles. Her spray can relic mysteriously appeared on her desk three weeks after she made it back to a Tether). Of course, her major task is to provide balance to the enemies of God. Demons fear her, not so much because she is relentlessly deadly (she is, as only an Elohite can be), but because she can choose _not_ to be. Stephanie, thanks to her Word, can intuitively determine how best to provide a stinging reproof to an offender, whether it be death, pain, humiliation or ridicule ... and she's frighteningly good at it. Her Role is extremely helpful in this: everyone expects pro wrestlers to be over the top, so Stephanie has a free hand to do all sorts of weird things without raising suspicion. Many a demon has found his favorite Role an absolute laughingstock after Stephanie has "balanced" his undeserved good name. And, oh yes: don't _ever_ make her take out her spray can. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 00:49:58 -0400 From: "Aaron Medwin" Subject: Re: IN> Mariel, Meserach, and a Very Empty Tummy From: Leath Sheales > Aaron wrote: > > > > Question about the Limbo. Can the Celestial Song of Tongues be used to > > send a message from/to Limbo? > > > > Yep. 15 words per point of Essence, according to H&H. Without the Song, 5 > > words can be sent per point of essence. > > I don't think that's technically correct. The CSoT can be used to send > messages in, but it can't be used to send messages out. Once you're in > Limbo, no-one knows if you're actually there, and they're sending in their > messages blind. Er, that's right. My error, not reading the question in it's entirety. > Leath. - -Aaron Medwin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:07:01 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim > >"Will write In nomine for food" seen by Eli. > (... in my living room window) jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:09:01 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> A overlook of Christian In Nomine A >fundementalist Christian (this is not including all members-surprisingly >many are more open minded than most-a almost contradiction I know) must >face >the fact that the Jews as the Chosen people of God were tempted and turned >away as all demons. They're all in service to Malphas anyway. jo (iRL) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 06:19:24 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> Canon/Cannon (was Lilim) >>Then that would be "in cannon " :-) Sorry I love to nitpick. Sorry >>Sorry...please go on. Canon. A cannon is a piece of field artillery. Ki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 05:17:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Dykes Subject: IN> Fantasy Island SciFi channel is now showing Fantasy Island...the newer one, where Malcolm McDowell plays a Bright Lilim of Destiny. And has three assistants, the lovely Ariel (okay, I don't think they named her), the lunkheaded Cal (undoubtedly short for Caliban), and the effete Harry... Cal and Harry were rescued (or otherwise transported,specifics aren't given) in from hell. They seem to have more relievers than fully fledged...maybe redeeming demonlings? Enough forces to fledge as a demon, not enough forces to become an angel. Ariel is a shapeshifter. I'll have to watch more to see if I can get a tighter In Nomine bead on the characterizations... Additionally, all the resorts services are provided by one man called Scotty. He runs the local Pizzeria, garbage dump, cleaning service, provides the complimentary toiletries, etc. There's a mysterious travel agency, the sort of storefront you've never noticed before, but stumble into during a rainstorm, staffed by an elderly couple, which scripts (or not) customer's fantasies. The Island itself is likely (what the hell, most definitely) in the Marches, transit via the plane. I'll have to look in the Libers to see the specific mechanics. SciFi is running it on Tuesday evenings... bkd __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 06:00:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Dykes Subject: Re: IN> A overlook of Christian In Nomine - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > Erich S. Arendall wrote: > >Oh, like David Edlestien's masterful "Jack Chick In > Nomine"? (That was a > >joke, for those who may be written-humor > deficient.) :) > >If you haven't seen it yet, then quit lurking > around your e-mail box and go > >here: > http://www.amadan.org/Innomine/Jack_Chick.html > > Hehehe I loved Jack Chick In Nomine (though I wish I > knew where the name > came from) Ahhh...thanks for the link...I was looking at the Chick stuff, and I'm definitely going to crib his Catholic church stuff for a secret sect in the Church... For those who want to read Chick stuff on their own: http://www.chick.com/ bkd __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:38:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Way, Truth & Dice Charlemagne wrote: > As a minister I feel the need to write my own "perfect" Christian > version of In Nomine-though in all likelihood it wouldn't be > very different from In Nomine with a dash Dogma. > Oh well No, please go on and do so, and post it. I, at least, am interested in such variations. I understand the necessity for IN to be marketed in an interdenominational manner, but I think the game would be more vivid if tied to real religions. (The GM Guide even gives recommendations for doing this.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:18:18 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Canon/Cannon (was Lilim) - --On Thursday, July 13, 2000 6:19 AM -0500 "Kiara S. Legner" wrote: >>> Then that would be "in cannon " :-) Sorry I love to nitpick. >>> Sorry Sorry...please go on. > > Canon. A cannon is a piece of field artillery. > > > Ki > *think* I still don't see the difference. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Both can go off in unexpected directions.") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 07:34:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Guy Royse Subject: Re: IN> Way, Truth & Dice > > As a minister I feel the need to write my own "perfect" Christian > > version of In Nomine-though in all likelihood it wouldn't be > > very different from In Nomine with a dash Dogma. > > Oh well > > No, please go on and do so, and post it. I, at least, am > interested in such variations. I understand the necessity > for IN to be marketed in an interdenominational manner, but > I think the game would be more vivid if tied to real religions. > (The GM Guide even gives recommendations for doing this.) Ya. Me too Seriously tho, I would be very interested in ideas about how Orthodox In Nomine could work. Personally, I think to make In Nomine more Christian one would first need to define the nature of Jesus. Being the central figure in Christianity, the current CDaU simply won't cut it. One of the things that I did't like about the Way, Truth, & Dice write up was it's portraital of sin. Sin isn't just a list of things that one shouldn't do because God said so. Sin *is* selfishness. I think the author missed that. In fact, I think that that is the entire point of Jesus. No human can be entirely selfless (i.e. sin free). Jesus died so that that would be OK. Second, clean up the Archangels and Demon Princes. Khalid doesn't fit well in a Christian perspective as he is currently portraited, for example (and before everyone jumps down my thoat about my ignorance on the nature of Khalid, I haven't gotten Superiors 3 yet because the gaming store here in Columbus was out of stock and that is a *good* thing). Anyhow, that my thoughts. I look forward to hearing some other ideas on Orthodox In Nomine. Guy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:44:21 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Canon/Cannon (was Lilim) From: "Kiara S. Legner" > >>Then that would be "in cannon " :-) Sorry I love to nitpick. Sorry > >>Sorry...please go on. > > Canon. A cannon is a piece of field artillery. Which is why he was cowering before one of Michael's servitors, who no doubt wondered what the big deal was. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:54:34 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Way, Truth & Dice Guy Royse wrote: > I look forward to hearing some other ideas on Orthodox In Nomine. Hm. If you meant *Eastern* Orthodox In Nomine, one wrinkle is that, from what I've heard, Eastern Orthodoxy has a slightly different view of Heaven and Hell from Western Christianity. *IF* I've heard right, they believe that the dead experience a rather dream-like existence -- more reminiscent of Greek Hades or Elyssian Fields, or Hebrew Sheol -- until the general resurrection. Put into IN, this would mean, perhaps, making the Celestial Plane more like the Ethereal, or splitting off a sub-plane for the dead between the two. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:18:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim At 9:39 PM -0400 7/12/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >>* People referencing existing canon, preferably with a book citation at >> least, and a page-reference prefered. > >Then that would be "in cannon " :-) Sorry I love to nitpick. Sorry >Sorry...please go on. No, cannon are things that go boom. Canon is That Which Is Writ. >Yeah definately. Basically I subscribe to the opinion though that anything >typed up here is rather public format for usage....I mean shouldn't it be? No, not necessarily. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:10:03 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Fantasy Island - --On Thursday, July 13, 2000 5:17 AM -0700 Bruce Dykes wrote: > SciFi channel is now showing Fantasy Island...the > newer one, where Malcolm McDowell plays a Bright Lilim > of Destiny. > I don't know about that. I always thought Ariel was the Bright, with songs of Form, Charm, Attraction, and Dreams. I never *quite* worked out who the Malcolm McDowell Roarke would be. Is it a bad sign that I was flipping channels, stopped on SFC, and had these thought as my first reaction? Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:17:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Fantasy Island On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Marc Bowden wrote: > I don't know about that. I always thought Ariel was the Bright, > with songs of Form, Charm, Attraction, and Dreams. I never *quite* > worked out who the Malcolm McDowell Roarke would be. I've got two theories about Roarke. The first is fairly normal. He's a high-Force Elohite of Destiny with the Word of Redemption Through Suffering. Everybody he deals with goes through Hell (metaphorically), but the purpose is to lead (or drive, if necessary) those people to their Destinies. The other theory is that he's Yves. > Is it a bad sign that I was flipping channels, stopped on SFC, and > had these thought as my first reaction? Nope. What's bad is if you stop on CNN while flipping channels and have these thoughts. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:54:27 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Fantasy Island - --On Thursday, July 13, 2000 12:17 PM -0400 Richard Gant wrote: > The other theory is that he's Yves. I thought about this, and STOPPED thinking about this before I hurt myself. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("He could also be Litheroy, or a servant...") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:58:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Fairly odd question: possibly shading OT? I'll ask it anyway. You all can just shoot me if it _is_ off-topic. Is the purchase of RPG-related material tax deductable if a), you wish to sell creative work to the RPG in question; b), the producers of the RPG explicitly state that a familiarity with their work is essential to would-be writers and artists; and c), you actually do sell creative work for cash money? Not that c) applies to me, actually, but I need a compelling real-world reason to rationalize buying GURPS IN, and if the above is actually true, then I have whizzo justification... :) Morgan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:22:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Fairly odd question: possibly shading OT? At 10:58 AM -0700 7/13/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >I'll ask it anyway. You all can just shoot me if it >_is_ off-topic. Oh, it's off-topic for In Nomine, mostly, but I won't shoot you. >Is the purchase of RPG-related material tax deductable >if a), you wish to sell creative work to the RPG in >question; b), the producers of the RPG explicitly >state that a familiarity with their work is essential >to would-be writers and artists; and c), you actually >do sell creative work for cash money? > >Not that c) applies to me, actually, but I need a >compelling real-world reason to rationalize buying >GURPS IN, and if the above is actually true, then I >have whizzo justification... :) IANALB (I Am Not A Lawyer But)... I think that you'd have to manage either C, or already be an author who can wave published work around to lend credence to your story. If you write (and have published) a few Pyramid articles, that would probably suffice for already being an author. If you buy it, and write some Pyramid articles that are then published in the requisite amount of time to qualify for C, you may be golden. Who knows, maybe some spiffy rejection letters will at least prove you tried. (Hint: get them from elsewhere than I. I don't have spiffy boilerplate, and if, stars help you, you actually get somewhere, you may get sucked into the Hurry Up And Wait black hole of publishing. Said black hole is why the IPG-Lilim and FotM-Lilith material was written when I was But A New Author, and published when I was a LE.) Anyone with better URLs to point to, or more experience in this matter, go ahead and speak up. I'm quite likely wrong on this subject, since I've never managed to let it bother me. (When I was young and poor, I cultivated contacts who got me a GURPS Basic Set off the "damaged" pile. Sure, the pages fell out, but it was free.) (Managing _that_ on short notice requires contacts in Austin, and probably a lot of chocolate -- it's probably cheaper to buy the book. Though if you can acquire a 'life-size' cardboard pirate stand-up thingy, send me some private email and I'll... broker something.) I'll quite happily state B if you want. O:> So, I imagine, would Kromm. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:11:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Fairly odd question: possibly shading OT? > Is the purchase of RPG-related material tax deductable > if a), you wish to sell creative work to the RPG in > question; b), the producers of the RPG explicitly > state that a familiarity with their work is essential > to would-be writers and artists; and c), you actually > do sell creative work for cash money? According to my tax statements, as prepared by a professional accountant last spring, that's a big negative. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 15:13:51 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Fairly odd question: possibly shading OT? At 10:58 -0700 7/13/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >Is the purchase of RPG-related material tax deductable >if a), you wish to sell creative work to the RPG in >question; b), the producers of the RPG explicitly >state that a familiarity with their work is essential >to would-be writers and artists; and c), you actually >do sell creative work for cash money? In general, business expenses are tax-deductible. The joker in there is the word "business".... The IRS will generally only accept it as a business expense if you actually make money at it. In other words, you must make more income from the business than your expenses. If you don't, they classify it as a hobby, not a business, and deny the deductions. There are some exceptions to this which mostly seem to be oriented toward the fact that real businesses sometimes lose money for a year or two, and then turn profitable. I've never claimed business expenses of any sort related to either my own writing or Elizabeth's, even though I file Schedule Cs routinely for both of us, for our writing and editing income. In theory, purchase of background materials, travel to conventions, office supplies, etc. would be deductible. But there's not very much income there, really, and it's not worth getting audited over. Even though Elizabeth has a title and is pretty clearly doing this professionally.... I think there are some writers guides on taxes; I'd suggest looking at one of those. (SFWA has some, I think, but I don't know if they're generally available. I think Writer's Digest also tends to publish tax tips for writers around tax time every year.) The rule of thumb to keep in mind is that the IRS has a *much* higher audit rate on self-employed people, primarily related to expense claims. That's why I never bother to claim expenses -- it's not worth saving $100 or so in taxes if it also gets me audited. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:23:55 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Fairly odd question: possibly shading OT? At 10:58 AM -0700 7/13/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >I'll ask it anyway. You all can just shoot me if it >_is_ off-topic. > >Is the purchase of RPG-related material tax deductable >if a), you wish to sell creative work to the RPG in >question; If you *do* sell creative work in RPGs, and can show that income as part of your tax, you may deduct supplements and the like. Why yes, I'm looking forward to this next year... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1711 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.