From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Jul 16 21:24:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA32762 for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:24:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id VAA32571 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:22:54 -0500 Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:22:54 -0500 Message-Id: <200007170222.VAA32571@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1714 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, July 16 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1714 In this digest: IN> Really messed up Idea Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store IN> Master of Divine Knowledge (WAS: in_nomine-digest V1 #1709) IN>News from the Gamming store front Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store Re: IN>News from the Gamming store front Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store IN> GURPS-IN and material for IN Re: IN> GURPS-IN and material for IN Re: IN> GURPS-IN and material for IN Re: IN> GURPS-IN and material for IN IN> servitors of fire Re: IN> servitors of fire Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:07:12 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Really messed up Idea Heheheh since I decided to do a Christian write up for In Nomine I suddenly had a very strange and odd urge to do a Gnostic write-up...........(odd since I'm a truly faithful liberal minister) In the book of Genesis Lucifer said "Let there be Light" which earned him his word as the Lightbringer and thus the demi-urge began to work out the creation of the world with his immediate underlings Gabrielle, Uriel, and Eli. God twiddeled his thumbs for about 10 billion years while Lucifer was exceptionally nasty to humanity inflicting plagues, commanding Heaven to do terrible things to mortals, and bringing prophets for humans to be better to each other...but generally being an unpleasant sort. The Fall never occurs because Lucifer commands a united tormentive host and blessing host. About 6 B.C. God however is so bloody sick of Lucifer's nastiness that he appears in a beutiful purely energy form called Jesus (who doesn't die because God is not part of Lucifer's science faire prodject here) and gives humanity the key to getting rid of everything unpleasant (avoid all earthy pleasures and devote oneself to the spirit). Needless to say Lucifer has been annoyed for the past 2000 years about this and prefers to tempt the virginal twigs in the True God's service. Dominic managed to take care of the Gnostic sects that had the biggest truths however during the Inquisitions so it's not that big of a deal. Possibilities The PCs are angels in Lucifer's service that are seeking to corrupt humanity away from God while trying to keep them from being evil. Difficult since the "Boss" of Heaven is a completly nasty micromanager who doesn't realize how uttely stupid such a misson is. Ingenuitive PCs may try to find the true Celestial god (difficult if they're soldiers or have vessels since Corporal forms are inherently evil and only true Celestial or Ethereal forms may find them) and convince him what Lucifer's made is not inherently bad. Human soldiers who discover the truth of this and must decide whether to achieve this bizzare kind of Nirvanna true heaven offers or deal with Lucifer whose a schitezoid deity commanding both the traditional heaven and Hell. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 19:39:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 04:15:38 GMTFrom: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store front... >>>Heh. Which bit? >It's bound to be the bit about the Grigori :) Face >it, people want Grigori! >(And a funny bit with a dog...) > >jo Sorry: trying to avoid spoilers for the people who haven't gotten the book yet. Page 57, Column 2, Paragraph 3, Line 7 (Word 8) to Line 8 (Word 2)* is the cause of my unusual physical reaction. Da*n, I just reread it, and my eyes bugged out _again_. It's just too freaking weird. :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Just Too Freaking Weird *Shame that there isn't an AA of Precision. Or Anal-Retentiveness. I could use the Essence. :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:48:20 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: IN> Master of Divine Knowledge (WAS: in_nomine-digest V1 #1709) At 6:51 PM -0700 07/15/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >Petitioner for the Word of Say, If I Take The Malakite >Resonance When I Get MDK, Am I Now Incapable Of Falling? I'd say no. The same is true of a Balakite** of Fate. The inability to Fall and survive Trauma, is seperate from the Resonance and Dissonance of the Malakim. I believe it's something that only Malakim are born with, and most other Angels (or Balseraphs) aren't. (*These are just my insane ramblings and should not be construed as 'canonical', unless someone with the power of 'canon' steps forth and clarifies.) (**The Non-Canonical name for a Balseraph of Fate, with the pretty black-'fleathery' wings. . . "Just like I do. . .") Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 00:47:20 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN>News from the Gamming store front Maurice Lane wrote: >1) It's Nifty. Good job done here by the authors and >playtesters. I may never actually play or GM a GURPS >IN campaign, but it was worth the bucks anyway. Really? I'm considering buying it just for the Grigori and Nephilim rules alone. Though this seems a rather large investment given I could instead be buying Superior books or the like with it. I wonder if it would impermissable to post the "reverse" engineered rules here on the list . >2) It's Selling. I talked to my Contact at my FLGS, >and he's reporting that the book has been a steady >seller for the past week (down to three copies after I >bought mine, out of an estimated twenty or so*). This >was a welcome bit o'news, but not nearly as nice as >watching him take down the display copy of S3 because >it had _sold_ _out_ completely otherwise. My FLGS can >be cheerfully mercenary at times**. Like I predicted Superiors 3 will outsell everything. I'd never bought a In Nomine book before in my life from the line (I bought the main book second hand) yet Superiors 3's promise got me into the game big time and I ordered it the momment I saw it. I personally did it almost entirely for Gabrielle though the addition of Yves, Khalid also helped. Blandine turned out to be surprisingly good too. After ordering it I soon ordered the Gamemaster's Guide and Superiors 1 (mostly for Michael and Laurence who became much more interesting after this) Anyone else have some theories why Superiors 3 is selling so well? >Also, the rest of the line has seen movement. Whether >or not this means anything is, alas, still up in the >air. Reply Hazy: Ask Again Later, and all that. Mine said "Yes" and then "Definately." though I must admit asking it "What does this mean?" makes the question somewhat open ended. All in all two thumbs up to the heads at In Nomine and let's hope their next supplements are as good as Superiors 3 (Ten to one the next demons after this will be Asmodeus, Baal, Kronos, and Malphus-the Destroyers) - -Charles Phipps ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 05:01:42 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store >From: Maurice Lane >> >Sorry: trying to avoid spoilers for the people who >haven't gotten the book yet Maurice, a lot of people on this list (such as me) won't be buying GURPS:IN because they _don't play GURPS_ and have the original version of IN already - -- thus adding zero value. So you might as well just be open about it. This isn't a spoiler. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 01:28:31 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN>News from the Gamming store front At 12:47 AM -0400 7/16/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >Maurice Lane wrote: > >Anyone else have some theories why Superiors 3 is selling so well? Two reasons: Good cover art. Honest to God Religious Themes. I'm sure of it. The connection to GURPS IN by proximity doesn't hurt. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 00:50:23 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store At 5:01 AM +0000 07/16/00, Jo Hart wrote: >So you might as well just be open about it. This isn't a spoiler. Three little words, that may or may not go together: Grigori. Song. Archangel. This has been a public service announcement*. (*I _did_ pick up GURPS IN. Doesn't mean I'll run it, since GURPS hurts my brain too much. However, I'm one of those Completest types. . . And it makes the ArchDean happy to get her 10% };;;> ) Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 08:38:00 -0400 From: "EDG" Subject: Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store Maurice Lane wrote: > Sorry: trying to avoid spoilers for the people who > haven't gotten the book yet. Page 57, Column 2, > Paragraph 3, Line 7 (Word 8) to Line 8 (Word 2)* is > the cause of my unusual physical reaction. It's a nice image, I'll admit. Unfortunately, the text that gets me is what follows, and it gets me because I can't /believe/ I didn't catch it in playtest. "The Seraphim Council believes that even speaking the Choir's name disturbs the Symphony..." Given the number of Seraphim wandering around - never mind that this is the Seraphim Council, which should be able to tell this by sheer implication - wouldn't the topic of whether or not the name "Grigori" disturbs the Symphony be rather moot by this point? It's a wonderful piece of flavor, and it certainly demonstrates the bureaucracy that Heaven experiences sometimes ("Of /course/ the name of the Watchers causes disturbance. Test it? This is ineffable fact, boy."), but on the whole I find it rather unlikely within canon. Oo. This just gave me a thought. ^_^ - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:05:00 +0100 From: "Christopher Lee" Subject: IN> GURPS-IN and material for IN WARNING: I am adopting a wholly personal position and do not claim to be speaking for anyone else! So please don't chew my backside if you don't like this. I'm considering buying it just for the Grigori and Nephilim rules >alone. Eh? What's all this then? Are there bits in the GURPS-IN that are original and not in original IN? I really hope not. I say this because I have no intention of buying GURPS-IN. It looks lovely and I had a flick through it whilst buying S3. I was impressed and I hope it sells well. I thought it looked very comprehensive and attractive. However, I have been playing both games for years and I personally think GURPS cannot handle high power levels. It works great for realistic, mundane sorts of genres (including hard sci-fi), but I have always found it collapses when it attempts to tackle high power levels. For example I think that GURPS is a poor system for either fantasy or supers. The system seems to stretch and has no mechanisms for accomodating the increases. As an example mundanes can often have skills rated say 16 in a 3d6 system, so where do you go to model a super-human grasp of the same knowledge? You can downrate ordinary people into fodder, or you can try to stretch the system. So having glanced at the book I made an informed decision to stick with the wholly workable IN system and keep GURPS for my special ops game. Anyway, I am digressing. When I read the above I was worried that original stuff might get printed in GURPS format and those of us who choose to remain with IN and do not see the point in buying GURPS stuff for it might be forced into buying a £15.99 (in my local store) book for a couple of side-bars of rules, and then have to convert them back anyway. I'm sure this isn't happening, but I hope you will avoid this, especially if the temptation arises to print further IN stuff in GURPS (maybe a GURPS-IN Companion or something). I like IN and I think it suits the genre well. I hope GURPS-IN does well and draws in lots of money. I have no doubt that the quality of writing is great and it is a good supplement for those who want to use it. However, I would join Jo in sticking with IN and hoping that GURPS-In will not be treated as part of the line and that IN users will not be expected to buy GURPS stuff too, with things seeing the light of day in GURPS format. If there are new rules, especially on something as long-awaited as the nephilim and grigori in the GURPS-IN I hope they see publication in IN format ASAP as they are eagerly awaited (and arguably long overdue, see below). I'll buy any IN products you release, so you can sell them to me, but I won't get GURPS-IN just for these. Chris Lee PS: sorry to be the voice of dissent again (no doubt this opinion is worthless!). However, I am a bit concerned that IN has stopped seeing any really new material. I like the Superiors books, but I would prefer to see the really untouched bits of IN get covered first. I mean when will the Ethereal Handbook see the light of day? Will there ever be rules for Grigori and Nephillim (in IN format!), etc. I like the Superiors books, they are as well-written as everything else in the line, but they are essentially fleshing out issues that are quite well-covered. For me they lack the vitality of some of the excellent earlier supplements such as the CPG, You Are Here, the Liber Servitorum, etc, as they are expanding existing material and not picking up the issues hinted at but not covered in the earlier books. For example Khalid got a decent chunk of a Revelations book, so why return to him when there are burning issues untouched? He is already in pretty usable format, and while the extra info is more than welcome there is absolutely nothing on the Grigori. I am concerned that with the long lags between supplements it must have been months since anything else came out and if we stick to Superiors books it will be months before anything other than them comes out. Why not intersperse the Superiors books with other material to keep up the variety and originality that has been the hallmark of this excellent game? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 19:20:42 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> GURPS-IN and material for IN Christopher Lee wrote: > Are there bits in the GURPS-IN that are original and not in original IN? Yes. > However, I would join Jo in sticking with IN and hoping that GURPS-In will not be treated as part of the > line Too late. > I mean when will the Ethereal Handbook see the light of day? Good question. It's supposed to go up for playtesting soon, but who knows? > Will there ever be rules for Grigori and Nephillim (in IN format!), etc. Someday, probably...when/if new supplements are put on the schedule. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:11:36 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> GURPS-IN and material for IN At 1:05 AM +0100 7/17/00, Christopher Lee wrote: > >Are there bits in the GURPS-IN that are original and not in original >IN? I really hope not. There are. Various opinions, often unhappy ones, have cropped up about this for some time. The slowdown of IN's schedule seems to be somewhat to blame, though it's led to some unhappy feelings. But, if you read the last two or three months of archives you'll see probably eight thousand more posts than you'd ever want to read about the subject. Including several from me. >When I read the above I was worried that original stuff might get >printed in GURPS format and those of us who choose to remain with IN >and do not see the point in buying GURPS stuff for it might be >forced into buying a £15.99 (in my local store) book for a couple of >side-bars of rules, and then have to convert them back anyway. I'm >sure this isn't happening, but I hope you will avoid this, >especially if the temptation arises to print further IN stuff in >GURPS (maybe a GURPS-IN Companion or something). Again, this has reached the point of needing to be added to the FAQ. So, to sum up: 1. Yes, there are new bits of Canon in GURPS IN. There are various reasons for it. And no one's particularly happy about it, in SJGames or out. 2. Everything in GURPS IN will eventually (we're told) be published in IN. No one is forced to buy GURPS IN. (And a good number of folks are likely to reverse engineer new stuff as a stopgap. I'm working on the Grigori myself, as I trust others are). 3. No further GURPS IN supplements are planned. GURPS IN is meant in part to bring more people to IN, not vice versa. There won't be GURPS stats in supplements or the like. >However, I would join Jo in sticking with IN and hoping that >GURPS-In will not be treated as part of the line and that IN users >will not be expected to buy GURPS stuff too, with things seeing the >light of day in GURPS format. Jo's point was she had no intention of buying GURPS IN, not that she hoped it wouldn't be considered a part of the line. It's not. Trust me. I *did* buy it. And I like it, but it's not In Nomine. It's some setting converted into GURPS, and laid out much much better than the Main Book. (*Much* better.) >If there are new rules, especially on something as long-awaited as >the nephilim and grigori in the GURPS-IN I hope they see publication >in IN format ASAP as they are eagerly awaited (and arguably long >overdue, see below). There are, and literally everyone on this list agrees with you. (See the archives for my long rants on this subject and on Grigori payoffs and the like.) >PS: sorry to be the voice of dissent again (no doubt this opinion is >worthless!). Hardly that, I'd think. > However, I am a bit concerned that IN has stopped seeing any really >new material. I like the Superiors books, but I would prefer to see >the really untouched bits of IN get covered first. I mean when will >the Ethereal Handbook see the light of day? As far as I know, it's been written. And I love the Superiors books (well, duh). >I like the Superiors books, they are as well-written as everything >else in the line, but they are essentially fleshing out issues that >are quite well-covered. That's actually one of my complaints with them. A good number of the Superiors currently covered already *had* expanded writeups, and while these are (in my opinion) vastly... er... superior to the Revelations writeups, that doesn't change the fact that it's not new information. I'd like to see some of the Superiors who aren't covered - -- like the Peace faction as an almost whole -- get into the books. The demons are doing better, on that score, with expanded writeups for Superiors not otherwise covered. > For me they lack the vitality of some of the excellent earlier >supplements such as the CPG, You Are Here, the Liber Servitorum, etc, Right! It's official. Some Folks Will Be Unhappy. Sorry -- I don't mean to neg your opinion, but there have been a lot of complaints about YAH and the Servitorum, with the Superiors books being pointed to as "more what's needed." Less so with the CPG, though it's less popular than the APG (though I think the CPG's a better book) and the IPG (better perhaps than either of the others). In other words -- Your Milage May Vary. >For example Khalid got a decent chunk of a Revelations book, so why >return to him when there are burning issues untouched? He is >already in pretty usable format, See, here I disagree. Khalid wasn't even remotely usable as written in the Final Trumpet. He was a horrible Elohite and a worse Archangel of Faith. Though he made a good Archangel of Raghead Terrorists.... The revisions in Sup3 are vast improvements over Khalid's original. If he doesn't seem particularly Elohite to me still, it's at least possible to make the leap of faith that he is -- and the rest of him is very well fleshed out and possible to be sympathetic with. > and while the extra info is more than welcome there is absolutely >nothing on the Grigori. There are rumors about Grigori stuff being delayed but in the pipe; about them being prepped but not in the pipe; about who knows what. Sigh. >I am concerned that with the long lags between supplements it must >have been months since anything else came out and if we stick to >Superiors books it will be months before anything other than them >comes out. Um... Superiors books *are* Supplements. And it's confirmed that the EPG *is* in the pipe, *somewhere* along the line. And, with the slowdown that's been apparently mandated, I'm just as happy to see Superiors finished rather than left hanging without expansions for Marc, Novalis and Eli, all of whom could really use them. (Then again, with GURPS IN and Sup3 apparently selling well, maybe we'll get a speedup.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 20:39:44 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> GURPS-IN and material for IN At 09:11 PM 16/07/00 -0400, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >3. No further GURPS IN supplements are planned. GURPS IN is meant in >part to bring more people to IN, not vice versa. There won't be GURPS >stats in supplements or the like. On a tangential note, the In Nomine bundles on Warehouse 23 were considered a raging success by all. The sales just of the bundles exceeded April and May IN sales put together, and Brendon said that a lot of people who ordered a bundle ordered some other IN stuff as well. Also, the strategy of providing a bundle with GIN included seems to have worked; by a little over two to one, people who ordered bundles ordered them with GIN. We conclude that a number of people who hadn't previously tried In Nomine were suckered in -- uh, encouraged to sample the line -- by that strategy. I think this is good news. We'll see if IN book sales are high throughout the rest of July as well. (Incidentally, for folks who are trying to track down the IN Game Master's Pack -- i.e., the screen -- it's amazing what you can discover when you go out to the warehouse and start opening dusty boxes. That's all I'll say on THAT topic ... except that you might want to watch W23 in September, armed with the knowledge that specials usually get posted on Monday...) - -- "People are stupider than anybody." | hackard@io.com -- Tom Lehrer | AIM: Talthybias | ICQ: 19083015 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:51:26 -0700 From: Daiv Subject: IN> servitors of fire Just a thought... What happens to servitors of Fire whose current subject dies before they are punished? not even those that die in the process of punishment, but say dies in from car accident completely randomly ( or at someone else's hands entirely)? would that result in a note of dissonance for the Gabrielite? If so, I can see demons making a point of killing off people that they know to be targets. done subtly, it could be an effective way of making their lives miserable. - -daiv ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:07:14 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> servitors of fire Daiv wrote: > > Just a thought... What happens to servitors of Fire whose current > subject dies before they are punished? not even those that die in the > process of punishment, but say dies in from car accident completely > randomly ( or at someone else's hands entirely)? would that result in a > note of dissonance for the Gabrielite? If so, I can see demons making a > point of killing off people that they know to be targets. done subtly, > it could be an effective way of making their lives miserable. It's an 'act of God' and the servitor is freed from that obligation. Death is assumed to be the ultimate form of justice... - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:24:15 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store At 19:39 -0700 7/15/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >Sorry: trying to avoid spoilers for the people who >haven't gotten the book yet. Page 57, Column 2, >Paragraph 3, Line 7 (Word 8) to Line 8 (Word 2)* is >the cause of my unusual physical reaction. I guess that's specific enough.... I think that's the #1 guess Elizabeth had. >Da*n, I just reread it, and my eyes bugged out >_again_. It's just too freaking weird. :) I think several people noted that in playtest. No, it's not a typo, and it's not a throwaway line. It's a bit of minor canon that might have gotten dropped into any appropriate place. (Though I don't think it was solidly established when the L. Canticorum was written or it might have shown up there.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1714 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.