From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jul 17 11:29:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18408 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:29:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA31045 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:17:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:17:38 -0500 Message-Id: <200007171617.LAA31045@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1715 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, July 17 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1715 In this digest: Re: IN>News from the Gamming store front Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store IN> In nomine timeline Re: IN> GURPS-IN and material for IN Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store IN> A taste, Just a taste Re: IN> A taste, Just a taste IN> An alternate taste... Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store IN> Graveyard Greg Returns Re: IN> servitors of fire Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store IN> Something to share Re: IN> In nomine timeline Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:32:32 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN>News from the Gamming store front At 0:47 -0400 7/16/00, Charles Phipps wrote: [GURPS IN] >Really? I'm considering buying it just for the Grigori and Nephilim rules >alone. Though this seems a rather large investment given I could instead be >buying Superior books or the like with it. Though I certainly wouldn't mind you buying it, I'd agree that it's probably not worth buying it for that reason. A slightly more compelling reason might be that the *reverse* GURPS->IN conversion rules are intended to allow GURPS supplements to be used in IN. Mostly that's probably useful for historical supplements, though; Who's Who, and the like. But my own opinion would be that buying Superiors books first would make sense. > I wonder if it would >impermissable to post the "reverse" engineered rules here on the list moot point since I don't have it>. Eric's already asked that question -- that's a question for SJ, probably. It's in the "borderline" area. >Anyone else have some theories why Superiors 3 is selling so well? It has a hot babe on the cover.... >All in all two thumbs up to the heads at In Nomine and let's hope their next >supplements are as good as Superiors 3 (Ten to one the next demons after >this will be Asmodeus, Baal, Kronos, and Malphus-the Destroyers) Superiors 4 is already listed on the web site. I don't think Superiors 6 (probably the next DP book) has actually been decided. The breakup into books is known, but the order of publication hasn't been set yet for some of the later books. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:36:43 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store At 8:38 -0400 7/16/00, EDG wrote: >"The Seraphim Council believes that even speaking the Choir's name disturbs >the Symphony..." > >Given the number of Seraphim wandering around - never mind that this is the >Seraphim Council, which should be able to tell this by sheer implication - >wouldn't the topic of whether or not the name "Grigori" disturbs the >Symphony be rather moot by this point? Depends on *how much* disturbance it causes -- it is canon that there are disturbances too small to be heard by normal angels. Except Grigori.... Whether the AAs can hear them... yeah, maybe. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:00:58 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> In nomine timeline Hey guys, using the Gamemaster's Handbook as a base I've been making a timeline for players for my campaign (basically to keep track of all the new information that I add to the history of the game) and I came up with some odd thoughts I'd share on all of this that might prove interesting.... 1. Malphus as the First Kyriorite: I found this an interesting idea that just sort of occured when I was writing, given he's so early mentioned in the creation of angels (right up there with Kobal, Beleth, and Blandine). After all he is the Demon Prince of Factions. Also he doesn't seem to possess any bodies but have his own in his write-up-maybe Malphus alone among the Demon princes rebbelled utterly against his nature as a possesor to seek something for himself and himself alone. Lucifer to Malphus: "Why be shattered, when you can be whole." 2. Lucifer the Lover of Humanity: One of Lucifer's intial big greviances with Metatron and God is the sealing away of the diabolic from humanity. Lucifer asking how God could possibly allow humanity to endure so much suffering when his angels could undo it all with a snap fo their fingers more or less. 3. Baal as the Betrayer: This was something that struck me as someone mentioned earlier that Baal as the Angel of Valor might be very foolish. What if however Baal rebbelled after initially denouncing Lucifer? Like Michael during the fall he said Lucifer's ideas where foolish, getting his word, but then (perhaps litterally) stabbing Michael in the back and leading his host against the Lightbringer. I mean who says he has to join intially? 4. The Tower of Babel: One of the most curious aspects of the tale untold is that the Tower was very similar to Beleth and Blandine's in that it litterally was going to reach from the Earthly realms to Heaven. Eli of course put the kabosh on it I undortunately am having trouble adding some points to some other issues in the timeline.... 1. What kinduv events do you think surounded Uriel killing Beezlebub? 2. Anyone have an idea which Archangels created which? (I put Jordi as Saminga's creator, Baal for Malphus, Eli for Kobal, Beleth, and Bladine, and David for Novalis). - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:37:53 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS-IN and material for IN At 1:05 +0100 7/17/00, Christopher Lee wrote: >Are there bits in the GURPS-IN that are original and not in original IN? I really hope not. The short answer is "yes and no". There are a *very* small number of new bits of canon in there, for various reasons. The most notable (and controversial) was the inclusion of the Grigori resonance, and a *little* more detail on that Choir. This wasn't done to make people buy GURPS IN, but rather for the sake of completeness (as several other bits of IN canon not in the main book got pulled into GURPS IN). Since GURPS stats *wouldn't* be published for the Grigori in the IN line, when they were covered (which looked at the time like it would be roughly concurrent with GURPS IN), we didn't want a bunch of GURPS IN players beating us up about not having a major Choir (it *is* listed in the main IN book, though not with stats) with the GURPS conversion. It was a tough call, and we knew it was going to raise *someone's* hackles, either way. You can blame me -- I suggested it originally. If I'd known at the time that the Grigori's IN intro would be delayed so much... I don't know. I think I probably would have ground my teeth and still suggested it, but it would have depended on when the Grigori were going to show up. As far as the other bits of "new canon" in GURPS IN -- most of them are simply clarifications that we felt were needed in GURPS, where all powers tend to be pretty well nailed down. For the most part, these nitpicky details can be thought of as pseudo-canon -- if, for some reason, the LE *had* to make a ruling on them in the IN line, it would be the same as what went into GURPS IN. A few others are things that simply cropped up during GURPS IN production, and the LE (and SJ) made a canon decision for *both* GURPS IN and the main IN line. The most notable of these were a few changes in distinctions and attunements. Gabriel's are in the Superiors 3 version of her; I think the only other one (and the most radical) was to Saminga's Habbalah. The original version of this was deemed too Word-unrelated to live, and replaced in toto with a new ability -- they can now remote-control corpses like a temporary zombis. >However, I have been playing both games for years and I personally think GURPS cannot handle high power levels. As a general rule, I agree with you. And we actually made some compromises in GURPS IN celestials to fit them in under the "ceiling". From what I've seen so far, this seems to have worked well enough. It's hard to know until someone's run a campaign for a year or so -- not something that can be playtested, just guessed at. >When I read the above I was worried that original stuff might get printed in GURPS format There wasn't, and isn't, any intention of printing stuff for GURPS IN and not IN. In fact, it's clearly stated in the front of GURPS IN that additional IN material will be published in IN, not GURPS. >especially if the temptation arises to print further IN stuff in GURPS (maybe a GURPS-IN Companion or something). Frankly, there's no temptation there! The GURPS IN conversion was sufficiently painful that the thought of doing any more of it is likely to send me screaming off into Beleth's realm. I suppose someday someone may convert some of the additional expanded Superior attunements, Songs, and artifacts into GURPS. But I suspect that would be more likely to be a Pyramid article or web page than a book. >and hoping that GURPS-In will not be treated as part of the line It *is* part of the line, as far as consistency goes. And also for other reasons -- the supplements for GURPS IN *are* the In Nomine line. It's best to think of GURPS IN as a 1.5th edition of the main IN book, with a different rules base. It differs from the main IN book in those ways a 2nd edition IN main book probably would. > and that IN users will not be expected to buy GURPS stuff too, This was never an expectation, to my knowledge. Yes, we knew some IN players *would* buy it, but it was, and is, primarily a book for existing GURPS players, not the current IN market base. And as far as I know, everyone's been up front about that. >If there are new rules, especially on something as long-awaited as the nephilim and grigori in the GURPS-IN I hope they see publication in IN format ASAP You, me, the LE, and just about everyone else, I think, agree on this. Unfortunately, sometimes the realities of the publishing business set in. I know of a number of GURPS supplements that have gotten started, and never seen the light of day, for various reasons. (Well, some of them did come out eventually.) Unfortunately, there are roughly half a dozen IN projects that would be really nice to have. And they can't all be done at once. When GURPS IN was originally planned, we fully expected the Grigori information to be out within a couple months. (And that was with the original *planned* release date for GURPS IN; after it started slipping, it seemed possible the Grigori material might precede it into print.) It turned out to not happen that way. > I'll buy any IN products you release, so you can sell them to me, but I won't get GURPS-IN just for these. And frankly, I wouldn't want you to. There's some chance that this particular bit of canon may be released "officially" to the IN community somehow. There's really not much more than a few sentences there. The stuff I'd *really* like to see, like what the Grigori and their Children are doing these days, is still missing, and awaiting a future IN supplement, hopefully. > However, I am a bit concerned that IN has stopped seeing any really new material. I like the Superiors books, but I would prefer to see the really untouched bits of IN get covered first. Actually, that's a lot of what the Superiors books are about -- to give expanded writeups to the Superiors who weren't going to get covered in future Cycles (which format drew enough flack that it was decided that wouldn't happen, if and when any future Cycles were done). As things worked out, the first Superiors book wound up covering Superiors who already had expanded writeups in the much-maligned Revelations Cycle. However, Superiors 2 was all-new stuff, except for Kobal. And the Superiors books basically came out of player demand -- there weren't *any* plans originally to do such things. But a *lot* of people asked for them, both here on the list, and in a somewhat more formal survey of IN players. > I mean when will the Ethereal Handbook see the light of day? It's in the pipe. Print date? Who knows.... But I expect it will appear sometime relatively soon (this means some number of months, I should add). The exact date will be up to the Managing Editor, who is the person who worries about production schedules. > Will there ever be rules for Grigori and Nephillim (in IN format!), etc. It's certainly intended that there be; it was always in the plan. When it will happen now is a good question.... >as they are expanding existing material and not picking up the issues hinted at but not covered in the earlier books. Well, Relevations did a little of that, and got soundly thrashed by most players. I think this cooled the enthusiasm a bit for doing more of the same.... > He is already in pretty usable format, and while the extra info is more than welcome there is absolutely nothing on the Grigori. Are they as important as most Superiors, to most players and GMs? You, yes. I'm not so sure about others. YMMV.... The particular order things are covered in is always going to bother *someone*. Most people seemed to want the Superiors books, when they were proposed. Nothing else was nearly as popular a concept, as I recall. >I am concerned that with the long lags between supplements it must have been months since anything else came out and if we stick to Superiors books it will be months before anything other than them comes out. Why not intersperse the Superiors books with other material to keep up the variety and originality that has been the hallmark of this excellent game? Frankly, because a lot of those other books you like so much haven't been stellar sellers. The line can't be sustained on books with marginal sales; and the Superiors books seemed likely to be more popular with more people than some of the other possible books. As a matter of fact, some people got tired of the succession of "Liber" books a while back. Again, YMMV. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:50:33 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store At 8:38 -0400 7/16/00, EDG wrote: >It's a nice image, I'll admit. Unfortunately, the text that gets me is what >follows, and it gets me because I can't /believe/ I didn't catch it in >playtest. > >"The Seraphim Council believes that even speaking the Choir's name disturbs >the Symphony..." Which is taken, Elizabeth just pointed out to me, essentially word for word from the main IN book -- it's not new. (In Nomine, p. 105.) Maybe we *should* have changed it.... But it was already canon.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:04:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> A taste, Just a taste Eric came up with a little game, as you all know: he's writing up either Eve AA of Women, or Eve DP of Submission, and he suggested that a couple of us do the same, toss it on our respective web pages and compare notes. Well, I'm doing it (dunno if anyone else is) and tossing it on my page Friday. And, since I don't know if anyone else is doing a writeup besides Eric and I, and it's been lots of fun and more people should think about playing, I present to you a rumor (nothing more) from my hopefully immortal opus that may stir some of you to join in... ;) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of I Gotta Share. Sorry. Tranxript of Interview 456WAIDS/3455.x4r "Listen, why on earth you want to hear about this one is beyond me completely. I'm sure that your boss needs to know about this, but this story is big. He should ask Eve herself and be done with it." "Oh, he didn't Reveal to you why he didn't, huh? You just have to love ineffability. Fine, fine, it's your funeral. You didn't hear this from me, OK? And you better hope there aren't any recording devices around..." "There aren't? How do you know ... oh, right. Useful trick to have, I must say. Anyway, your boss wants to know why Laurence keeps supporting the Archangel of Women when she's always taking him to task. Well, I heard this from a Choir-mate (never mind who) who got it from somebody who was there to witness a meeting between the two. My guess is as good as yours whether it's true or not." "Yes, yes, I'm not thinking clearly. Of course you'd be able to discern the Truth better than I could. I see that your Choir still hasn't gotten your collective heads around idiom yet. You want to hear this story, or what?" "I'm getting to it, I'm getting to it. Anyway, when Eve descended the ladder, my buddy told me that Laurence was a little confused, naturally, but he didn't freak out as much as some of the others. After all, he was doing his job, unlike some people he could name. He welcomed her to the Seraphim Council, let her take up her position, and didn't give her any trouble at all. And, in return, Eve starts tearing chunks off of everybody who didn't "remember their mission to aid humanity" - including the aforementioned Laurence." "Yes, you Know this already. Unfortunately for you, I give information best when it's presented in narrative form, with full background. Feel free to ping me and see." "I mean for you to use your freaking resonance, you literal-minded pedant." "Thank _you_. As I was saying, Laurence was a little shocked at all this, but since he's not the type to wash dirty linen in public ... I _mean_, he decided to privately discuss the matter, he asks Eve to stop by his HQ and talk about things. All very polite and civilized. "Now, picture the scene. Eve shows up, and seeing as Laurence has, shall we say, issues about private meetings with extraordinarily majestic, putatively married women, there's a bunch of chaperones from both sides. That's how I was able to hear what happened next. Laurence is being very polite about the whole thing, but he's firm about explaining to her that he was, in point of fact, General of the Host, and sometimes has to make unpleasant decisions about how to fight the War. Unless, of course, she has orders from God to supercede him? "Eve shakes her head, and equally politely, tells him that God wouldn't have done that without telling him, of course. Still, she did think that Laurence needed to alter his methodology a bit, and she wasn't alone in thinking this. Laurence was free to disregard her opinions, absent direct command from the Almighty. But he should know that she wasn't alone in her opinion. "Laurence raises an eyebrow at this and asks her who else agreed with her. Eve reaches into a sleeve of her robe and pulls out a sealed missive." "I see _that_ got your attention. It certainly got his: Laurence went absolutely still when he saw the sigil. With what my contact swears was a noticeable shake in his hand, he opens the letter, reads the message, and just stares at it for a while. Then, in front of both his and her people, he bows down and kisses her feet. And he hasn't undercut her since." "What, you think I know what's in the letter? I wouldn't have a clue. What would make you think that I did ... right. Damn. Ping me again when I say this: you really, really don't want to hear this next part." "You'll take the chance? Tough luck on you, pal. Now, apparently someone was in a position to see the actual message after Laurence dropped the letter on his desk. She or he happened to know the older dialects, so it was comprehensible. It was a short message. Come closer and let me whisper it to you." "The message was five words and one letter long. I swear, on my Honor, that I was told it said: Listen to her. Persevere. Wait. - - U. "'Byproducts of corporeal digestive processes', indeed." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:19:55 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> A taste, Just a taste At 9:04 PM -0700 7/16/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >Eric came up with a little game, as you all know: >he's writing up either Eve AA of Women, or Eve DP of >Submission, and he suggested that a couple of us do >the same, toss it on our respective web pages and >compare notes. Oh... I *like.* Here, let me send out a teaser too. It looks like we went down very different paths, which has me excited about this. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:21:08 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> An alternate taste... As with Morgan, here's my teaser on my take on Eve. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. - --KJV, 1 Timothy 2:11-15 It is said that the humans of Eden were in all ways perfect, created instead of born of man or evolution, and of the fullest number of Forces that humanity can possess in life, so that the perfect humans of Eden would be like Angels in their strength and ability. Crafted - -- some say inspired by the hand of God himself -- by Eli, working from the Primal Clay that God granted him. Born of Fifteen Forces, Five each of Corporeal, Ethereal and Celestial -- for the humans of Eden were to be perfect, the better to test the perfection of Humanity. And so Adam was created and made perfect in Forces, sculpted and shaped and given life. And as humanity had been divided by the forces of evolution into two parts -- the better to grow and develop and spread their diversity between each other -- so was Lilith created as well, also perfect in Forces, sculpted and shaped and given life. And Adam and Lilith were taken as man and wife. But Adam was not content, and neither was Lilith. Made so much alike as one another, Adam and Lilith could not help but contest with one another. And so -- perhaps with prompting and perhaps not, Lilith walked away from Eden, and Adam was not sad to see her go. And yet, it could still be said that for Eden to progress, there would need to be two -- a man and woman, a husband and wife -- or else the truth of humanity would never be seen. And so the Lord spoke unto Eli through the Voice of the Metatron, and Lucifer too spoke to Eli, for in these days, the Lightbringer was the brightest jewel of the sky, the shining Seraphim, who sat at the Head of the Seraphim Council with Michael and Baal his right and left hands. And they asked him to sculpt a new woman for Adam's wife. "I cannot make another," said Eli. "For if I made another perfect woman, whole in Forces and sculpted from the Primal Clay, then she would again be Adam's equal, another Lilith, and Adam will not look upon her with pleasure, and she too will leave." "Then you say that humanity cannot coexist," the Lightbringer asked. "That when perfected, they become intolerable to one another? How then can humanity be said to enjoy God's grace more than the Angels? How then can humanity aspire to the heights of the Heavenly Glory? This experiment was a failure." "Not so," Eli said. "For perfection is what humanity aspires to, not achieves. In failing to reach their goal, humanity can exceed perfection itself. In creating perfect humans, we strip from them humanity. Of this I know -- am I not the first among Mercurians, the Friends of Man? We understand them, Most Holy, which you do not from your place among the heavens." And Lucifer was disturbed at Eli's words, for he did sense the shining truth of them, but could not believe that the Bringer of Light, the Illuminator of God's Most Holy Works could fail to understand all there is to understand about humanity, where even a mighty Mercurian remained the furthest from God's Grace, yet knew them well. And he fell silent, even as the Metatron, who was the Voice of God, spoke. "Then how shall we test humanity, if not in perfection and sculpted from perfection?" "Once again I shall take up the clay," Eli said. "And sculpt as best as my hands, inspired by the Lord, can do. However, I will not sculpt all of this new Woman. Instead, I shall first take from Adam one Ethereal Force, impregnated with his thoughts, his personality -- and with this shall I sculpt the seed of what he thinks a woman shall be. And so Adam will be made less than perfect, for he shall have Fourteen Forces, Five of Body and Five of Soul, but only Four of Ethereal. And his new wife shall be made of Fifteen Forces, but while Fourteen of them shall be perfect as Heaven, the Fifteenth -- the seed of it all -- shall be Adam's, which itself has changed from the day it was crafted from the clay, and therefore it shall also change the whole. And so the two shall be truly human, for they shall not be perfect, but will be perfectly suited to one another as husband and wife." And the Metatron said that Eli's work shall progress as Eli himself had said it. And Lucifer heard the words of the Metatron, and agreed, though he remained troubled at the affair -- his troubles having been born with humanity before Eden's creation, and no less troubled now. And he sent of himself to Lilith, and he and Adam's first wife spoke of things together. And Eli went to Adam and spoke unto him, saying "I have come, as sent by the Lord, to make a wife of you and for you." "Of me?" Adam asked. "How is this possible?" And Eli spoke in metaphor, of how a clipping from a tree may graft onto another root, and form a new tree, seperate from the old. And spoke of how a portion of Adam could be taken, and his new wife created from that. And the metaphor he chose for Adam was Adam's rib, which he said could be made the foundation of a new woman. And Adam was frightened, but took comfort in Eli, the Friend of Man, and agreed. And Eli brought Adam down into a deep slumber, and took of Adam one Ethereal Force, and began to sculpt around it. And so Adam became less than perfect, but therefore more perfectly man. And the woman was sculpted and born of the clay, her soul breathed into her by Eli, for the Lord breathed through him to give her human life, and he Sang the Corporeal Song of Life that no Angel now knows, and Adam's Second Wife was born into the world. And she was greater than her husband, for she was Fifteen Forces Whole and he was Fourteen, but her Fifteenth Force was Adam's, and it spoke to her of who she should be, and what sort of wife was right for Adam. And so she too was less than perfect, and therefore more perfectly human. And Eli called down Yves to see the new Wife, and Yves (who was the Namer of things still) named her Eve. And when Adam awoke and he and Eve spoke, both were full happy with one another and took one another to husband and wife, and Adam put thoughts of Lilith from his head. And so Eli rose from Eden, to leave Adam and Eve to conduct their lives without divine intervention, as the Lord had commanded through His Voice the Metatron. But even as Lucifer and his followers were troubled, so did they question the wisdom of the Metatron. And some whispered that the Metatron had not spoken the Lord's will when he commanded that no Angel interfere with Eden, but instead had spoken for himself. And so the Angel Ophis, Servitor of the Seraph Baal who was the Left Hand of Lucifer and the Seraphim Council, slipped into Eden in the Vessel of a Serpent, and tainted the pair with temptations beyond what had been mandated by the Lord through His Voice the Metatron. And the Lord spoke through His Voice the Metatron, saying that the Angel Ophis had tainted the experiment, ruining its purity. And despite the complaints of many, including Bright Lucifer, head of the Seraphim Council, the Lord spoke again through His Voice the Metatron, declaring that humanity was to be left alone in all ways, left to grow and develop on their own. And Lucifer, deeply disturbed, took the Metatron aside, and through him consulted with God for a very long time indeed. Thou madest Adam, and gavest him Eve his wife for an helper and stay: of them came mankind: thou hast said, It is not good that man should be alone; let us make unto him an aid like unto himself. - --KJV (Apocrypha) Tobit 8:6 And while the Bringer of Light spoke to the Lord through His Voice the Metatron, Adam and Eve left the Garden, brought forth by Eli. And Eli, who was the Friend of Man, showed them how to create shelters, that the two could live seperately from their human brethern until they were prepared for life outside the Garden. And Eli clasped Adam's hand as friend, and embraced Eve as he might his sister, and spoke well to them both. But Eve he took aside, and spoke unto her, saying "We shall see one another again, when the fullness of time has worked its nature." - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:41:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:24:15 -0400From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store At 19:39 -0700 7/15/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >>Da*n, I just reread it, and my eyes bugged out >>_again_. It's just too freaking weird. :) >I think several people noted that in playtest. No, >it's not a typo, and it's not a throwaway line. It's >a bit of minor canon that might have gotten dropped >into any appropriate place. (Though I don't think it >was solidly established when the L. Canticorum was >written or it might have shown up there.) Well, it _does_ handily explain why a game that routinely incorporates musical imagery has Music supported by a "mere" Word-bound. :) Hmm. I know that Fallen or Redeemed Superiors lose their Words, and that regular Word-bound can be stripped of their Word by the Seraphim Council, but _can_ even the SC strip a Word from a mere Outcast Superior? It'd be something to see them try ... from a safe distance. Like another plane. :) Anyway, if they can't, then I'd imagine that Israfel-watching could be a common exercise among certain members of the Host: "Well, is she a Superior yet?' "No, sir." "Damn. Well, at least we know that at least _one_ of them is still alive out there..."* Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of I'm Not Dead Yet *Yeah, I know that she might not automatically upgrade, but she's a prime candidate for it. IMHO. :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:26:12 -0700 From: Graveyard Greg Subject: IN> Graveyard Greg Returns >Also, as another note, Steve kenson, one of the contributers for the >Angelic Players Guide, will be around and GMing the SR tourney if anyone >feels like pestering him Hmmm...after returning from Origins, I must say this: I *think* I met Kenson, but sometimes the con addles my memory circuits, much like my memory (and body) is addled now. I'm pooped--see ya! Greg Graveyard? _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 07:39:55 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> servitors of fire >From: Daiv >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: IN list >Subject: IN> servitors of fire >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:51:26 -0700 > > Just a thought... What happens to servitors of Fire whose current >subject dies before they are punished? not even those that die in the >process of punishment, but say dies in from car accident completely >randomly ( or at someone else's hands entirely)? would that result in a >note of dissonance for the Gabrielite? That ... could be interesting. If they end up in hell, then I think you can assume that they automatically count as having been punished. If they end up in Heaven then I guess the angel can catch up with them and give them a Stern Talking To (tm). However, if they get reincarnated ... then I would give the angel concerned a note of dissonance -- which they could work off by tracking down the reincarnated soul and working through its punishment for the previous life. Yes, this could get extremely icky if an angel of fire ends up beating a child. Only the angel (and Gabriel) will understand that the punishment was fair, just and thoroughly deserved. The inquisition might see things differently. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 07:40:48 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store > > >Da*n, I just reread it, and my eyes bugged out > >_again_. It's just too freaking weird. :) > >I think several people noted that in playtest. But you chose to ignore the playtesters. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:03:12 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: IN> Something to share This is a short story about a demon by Isaac Bashevis Singer (translated from the Yiddish into English). I thought it was quite interesting. http://www.britannica.com/bcom/magazine/article/0,5744,341901,00.html jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 07:27:30 -0400 From: "EDG" Subject: Re: IN> In nomine timeline > 1. [Malphas] as the First [Kyriotate]: I found this an interesting idea that > just sort of occured when I was writing, given he's so early mentioned in > the creation of angels (right up there with Kobal, Beleth, and Blandine). > After all he is the Demon Prince of Factions. I would expect that there were other Kyriotates before Malphas; I have a feeling my judgment would be swayed depending on his pre-Fall Word (if he did, in fact, have one). > Also he doesn't seem to > possess any bodies but have his own in his write-up-maybe [Malphas] > alone among the Demon princes rebbelled utterly against his nature as a > possesor to seek something for himself and himself alone. Where do you see that? "Malphas... presents himself as an older man with a mean disposition"? As far as I can tell, that's either how he prefers to show up in the celestial plane (I don't recall whether demons can modify their celestial form like angels can), or his preferred vessel-type. It's easy enough to find a bitter old man these days. > Lucifer to [Malphas]: "Why be shattered, when you can be whole[?]" Interesting thought. There aren't enough hours in the day for me to expand upon it, though... > 2. Lucifer the Lover of Humanity: One of Lucifer's intial big [grievances] > with Metatron and God is the sealing away of the diabolic from humanity. > Lucifer asking how God could possibly allow humanity to endure so much > suffering when his angels could undo it all with a snap of their fingers > more or less. Again, an interesting take on things, but it doesn't make for a good motivation for the Fall. "Hey, God lets bad things happen to good people. It's not really nice of Him, I know, but hey, since he's letting it happen, let's all go down and /make/ bad things happen to good people!" > 3. Baal as the Betrayer: This was something that struck me[,] as someone > mentioned earlier that Baal as the Angel of Valor might be very foolish. > What if however Baal [rebelled] after initially denouncing Lucifer? Like > Michael during the [Fall] he said Lucifer's ideas [were] foolish, getting his > [Word], but then (perhaps [literally]) stabbing Michael in the back and > leading his host against the Lightbringer. I mean who says he has to join > intially? Do you mean leading his host /toward/ the Lightbringer? > 4. The Tower of Babel: One of the most curious aspects of the tale untold is > that the Tower was very similar to Beleth and Blandine's in that it > [literally] was going to reach from the Earthly realms to Heaven. Eli of > course put the kabosh on it Eli? No, no. This would have been Malphas at work. As for Blandine and Beleth, their Towers - afaik - stretched simply from the Ethereal to the Celestial, and didn't go anywhere /near/ the corporeal plane. > 1. What kinduv events do you think surounded Uriel killing [Beelzebub]? No idea. ^_^ > 2. Anyone have an idea which Archangels created which? (I put Jordi as > Saminga's creator, Baal for [Malphas], Eli for Kobal, Beleth, and > [Blandine], and David for Novalis). This is from memory: Saminga wasn't involved in the Fall. His writeup places him as a minor demon when the Egyptians were around; he's actually a relatively young Prince. Baal was not an Archangel at any point, and thus would have had difficulty creating Malphas. Myself, I would go with Jordi; I have strange notions that perhaps Malphas was the first one to point out that humans had faith, differentiating them from animals. You might be spot-on with Eli and his coterie. I should suspect, though, that if this were the case, Kobal is sort of a little brother to Beleth and Blandine, by a factor of several eons. It would stun me to find out that David created Novalis. It creates a sense of irony, yes, but that sort of coincidence is so rarely seen in reality that I would be surprised to find it in In Nomine. In fact, I would suspect that if anyone created Novalis, it would have been Eli; in turn, I wouldn't object to seeing Beleth as a servitor of Stone. My 2c, EDG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:43:44 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store Jo Hart wrote: > > > > > >Da*n, I just reread it, and my eyes bugged out > > >_again_. It's just too freaking weird. :) > > > >I think several people noted that in playtest. > > But you chose to ignore the playtesters. I don't think that's a fair statement. Listening to the playtesters (who weren't universally on one side of the issue, I'm sure) and then making a decision is not the same as ignoring them. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:18:43 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store At 7:40 +0000 7/17/00, Jo Hart wrote: >> >> >Da*n, I just reread it, and my eyes bugged out >> >_again_. It's just too freaking weird. :) >> >>I think several people noted that in playtest. > > >But you chose to ignore the playtesters. No. This was a case where the playtesters didn't have enough information to really make an informed comment -- this wasn't something for GURPS IN, but a bit of unrevealed canon for the main IN line, related to some of the Grigori background that's been worked out, stuff that will hopefully make it out someday. I suppose we could have chosen not to mention it, but I don't think the actual fact is likely to change. - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1715 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.