From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jul 19 10:57:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21303 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:57:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id KAA28167 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:48:59 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:48:59 -0500 Message-Id: <200007191548.KAA28167@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1719 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, July 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1719 In this digest: IN> Furfur and Hardcore Re: IN> Re: Legion & Haagenti Re: Re:IN> A fun little thought, with hairy implications. Re: IN> A fun little thought, with hairy implications. Re: IN> A fun little thought, with hairy implications. Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store Re: IN> More on Kyriotates of Michael. Re: IN> Furfur and Hardcore Re: IN>News from the Gamming store front Re: IN> Ranting [was:A fun little thought, with hairy implications] Pushing Malakim (was Re: IN> A fun little thought, with hairy implications.) IN> Being Undead Re: IN> Interventions. Re: IN> Furfur and Hardcore Re: IN> Ranting [was:A fun little thought, with hairy implications] Re: IN> Michael's Kyriotates. Re: IN> Interventions. IN> Re: Deeply Heretical Re: IN> Re: Deeply Heretical Re: IN> Re: Deeply Heretical IN> Dead Superiors Re: IN> Dead Superiors Re: IN> Dead Superiors Re: IN> Dead Superiors IN> Cinematic gun battles in IN... IN> Holy vs. Unholy Re: IN> Dead Superiors Re: IN> Dead Superiors Re: IN> Holy vs. Unholy Re: IN> Furfur and Hardcore Re: IN> Ranting [was:A fun little thought, with hairy implications] Re: IN> Dead Superiors ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:02:23 -0400 From: Bull Subject: IN> Furfur and Hardcore Here's a question that may have come up before. (In fact, I'd be willing to bet it has, but... :)) Anyways, I'm curious just how much of "Hardcore" does Furfur embody? While Night Music basically only discusses the Hardcore Music aspect of things, his Word is simply Hardcore, not Hardcore Music. So could it cover other things considered Hardcore? Porn and Wrestling are the only two "major" aspects that come to mind. Basically, I worked up a Calabim of Furfur who tries to follow the Hardcore Wrestling aspect of Furfur. Rather than having music playing when he uses his "extra" Resonance bonus, he has to be poing a hardcore wrestling manuever (slamming people into concrete or through tables). This is actually a bit more limiting sometimes, but... :] Thoughts? Bull _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:47:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Legion & Haagenti On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > >Okay, so you'd probably have to do two books on the dead DP's, but I wouldn't > >complain :) > > Frankly, I'd settle for the 2 page writeups that match the Main > Book's initial writeups, plus a third page each detailing their > history in microcosm. Put them in order of destruction, and have a > fourth and fifth page each devoted to how the course of history > proceded between these events and how more modern AAs and DPs rose. > > That's sixty pages out of 128. Giving plenty of room for prominant > historical Word-bound (Demogorgon leaps immediately to mind) and some > fun pre-Superior bits for some other types. (Laurence as a new Angel > or as the newly Word-bound Angel of the Sword, for instance. Or > perhaps a bit on Magog the Angel of Fortitude. Or Nybbas's writeup. > Or the pre-Legion-fight writeup of Haagenti, and how he distinguished > himself so much during the big fight. > > All of that would *still* leave enough wordcount on how to run a > Superiors game with even the chance to have boxed text that upsells > different historical GURPS books. > > Call it the Liber Temporum, and we're in business. > > Right? Right? Anyone? Anyone? Yes, YES. This might even be tenable! Squeeze 'em all into one book... five pages each and then a bunch of history. Would it sell? Well, to ME it would, definitely.... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is _the best_. -- Frank Zappa, "Packard Goose" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:16:22 -0700 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: Re:IN> A fun little thought, with hairy implications. > >Now, the automatic answer is, "Of course not." > >Several arguments why, of course: because Jumping and > >Falling are essentially the same thing, or because > i would distinguish between Falling and Jumping by > degrees. the former creeps up on an angel as selfishness > that wears away at the soul; the latter is a conscious > choice made with or without a lot of thought behind it > but generally no Discord or Dissonance. I have a hard time reconciling the thought of an angel with no D/D Jumping. It seems to me that while certainly within the *rules* it sort of breaks the entire flavor of the game. Why would an angel want to Jump if it didn't have any? The Other David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:31:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> A fun little thought, with hairy implications. On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: > Malakim cannot Fall. > > But can they Jump? > > [snip] > > However, whatever the actual reason, a Malakite who > cannot Jump is a Malakite who is forbidden to make a > fundamental choice about themselves. _The_ > fundamental choice. They are locked into the service > of Heaven, and cannot pick their side. The lowest > creature in the three planes has more freedom than > they. Unless, of course, you assume that they *choose* to give up that freedom. In my campaign, no Malakim are created from scratch. They *must* fledge from Relievers, and they must choose to become Malakim. If they do, they are given a "breaking-in" period as 8 Force Relievers on duty with Malakim. If they pass, they get to be Malakim. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:35:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Matt Walsh Subject: Re: IN> A fun little thought, with hairy implications. On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: > However, whatever the actual reason, a Malakite who > cannot Jump is a Malakite who is forbidden to make a > fundamental choice about themselves. _The_ > fundamental choice. They are locked into the service > of Heaven, and cannot pick their side. The lowest > creature in the three planes has more freedom than > they. Alternative hypothesis: remember that the first Malakim weren't created, they were reshaped. (A Malakite would say "purified", I suspect, but whatever.) What if this is how all Malakim happen? Consider: when an angel is first created, it receives an inspiration and a choice. In one moment of revelation, the angelic newborn knows about the Fall, and is offered the same chance that Uriel and them were offered: follow your nature, or take up arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them. (*) The ones who choose to fight become newly-fledged Malakim. Having made the choice of joining Heaven's guardians of honour, the opportunity to Fall is taken from them. But they did have it to begin with. Even Uriel could have joined the Rebellion, back when he was a Seraph. This would imply that no Superior can actually *create* a Malakite as such, any more than Lilith can create a Daughter who *will* 100% guaranteed serve a certain Prince. Both can make the desired alternative attractive, by a suitable flavouring of Forces, but the new Celestial must make the choice themselves. (This actually touches on something else that I've been thinking about: does an original Malakite's former Choir influence their outlook? How is an Elohite/Malakite different from a Kyriotate/Malakite?) Matt (*) Apologies to Mr. Wm. Shakespeare; it just seemed *so* suitable. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:44:59 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store At 03:48 PM 18/07/00 -0400, Walter Milliken wrote: >Some of that should already be there -- I believe the attunement changes >were supposed to be put up as errata. Some of the other things aren't, >though. For the record, our previous errata coordinator had a big chunk of life hit him, and a lot of errata for all our games has backlogged. With any luck, that will clear up soon. - -- "People are stupider than anybody." | hackard@io.com -- Tom Lehrer | AIM: Talthybias | ICQ: 19083015 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:30:36 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> More on Kyriotates of Michael. At 5:58 PM -0600 7/18/00, ben wrote: >Can a Kyriotate of Michael go celestial and have their vessel vanish the >same way other celestials do? Yes. > If so, can they then possess some other >people and have their normal vessel as a reserve? Not with the Forces invested in the vessel. But with their remaining Forces, yes. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:35:00 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Furfur and Hardcore At 9:02 PM -0400 7/18/00, Bull wrote: > >Basically, I worked up a Calabim of Furfur who tries to follow the Hardcore >Wrestling aspect of Furfur. Rather than having music playing when he uses >his "extra" Resonance bonus, he has to be poing a hardcore wrestling >manuever (slamming people into concrete or through tables). This is >actually a bit more limiting sometimes, but... :] > >Thoughts? "Todd... why do you have your submachine gun wrapped in barbed wire? That can't possibly do any good." "You serve your Word in *your* way, and I serve my Word in *mine.*" - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:30:39 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: Re: IN>News from the Gamming store front At 9:26 PM -0400 07/17/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >Alaemon being, as usual, mysterious. You mean that shadow I thought I saw? Wait, nevermind. . . I could've sworn it was there a minute ago. . . >At 4:56 PM -0400 7/17/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >> I'll probably buy [Nybbas], [Andrealphus], Kobal, and Haagenti first >> personally. Superiors 2 is a good book. So is Superiors 1. And Superiors 3. Buy them. Buy them all. They are all much better than Cats! *ahem* I think I've had my share of sillyness today. Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:33:19 -0500 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> Ranting [was:A fun little thought, with hairy implications] David Rodemaker wrote: > I have a hard time reconciling the thought of an angel with no D/D Jumping. > It seems to me that while certainly within the *rules* it sort of breaks the > entire flavor of the game. Why would an angel want to Jump if it didn't have > any? Sometimes I wonder if anyone reads that coolest of text from the Main IN book. You can find it on the back cover of any soft back. It starts out "They are much like us..." or something to that extent. (my personal book had the misfortune of being in my car when it started leaking* so mine's currently unavailable or i'd quote it in it's entirety). Sometimes I just get tired of many people casting angles as perfect being without doubt or fear or any other flaw that isn't expressed as outright discord. There aren't your standard run of the mill angels here these are In Nomine angels. They steal; they kill and they cope with a world that just doesn't seem to get it. The APG didn't help this at all because that book was so insanely bright that the complete change of tone from the main book is so off-setting many people never get over it. (of course more check digit tables didn't help anything) Humm... Has anyone considered completely eliminating check digit tables in IN 2.0? I know that I'd really like to see the seraphim and malakim check digit tables go away. The Seraphim on is murder to any mystery while nothing makes a GM jump like a malakim who resonates anyone who's given a name. I'm sure the eloite and merc one's are just as bad, I've just not had an abusive player of either choir yet and as I mentioned my book is currently unavaliable**. Trent Ofanite of Doubt * Due to an unfortunate accident involving ice and a Texas driver. ** At least now I have a good excuse to buy the new Hardcover Note: Do not send personal reply to ihatemicrosoft@msn.com the address is fake and if it exists at all isn't mine. Instead send replies to mtrent@bigfoot.com. The reasons for this involve msn's refusal to let email go through their server that doesn't claim to come from an msn email address despite obviously being connected with their service, though they aren't polite enough to send an error message. They just dump it into Limbo without ceremony. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:53:51 -0400 From: Tim Groth Subject: Pushing Malakim (was Re: IN> A fun little thought, with hairy implications.) It says in the APG that Malakim Oaths are like Discord, at least in the ways they can be removed. This means that theoretically a Demon Prince could undo such oaths. Since the first two prevent Falling and Jumping when removed the Malakim could choose to become a demon. IIRC Superiors are only able to remove Discord from celestials attuned to them, so no DP could strip a Malakite of its oaths. But an Archangel could. I doubt any Archangel has ever done this. So if an Outcast Malakite decided to serve a Demon Prince, and somehow become attuned to the Word enough for the Demon Prince to remove oaths from them then possibly the Malakite could become a demonic equivellent. Or maybe a very clever Prince could trick a Malakite into serving them and from there procced to engeener the Virtue's Fall. The more probable way that a Malakim could Fall is if they never swear their oaths. Even created Malakim have to swear the oaths, they can't be imposed. So they choose to give up the possibility of Falling so they can better serve. A newly fledged or created Malakite can go, "Nope, I swear to serve Lucifer." or "I promise to only give a damn about myself." or even "I promise to eat 10 cheese doodles a day." Of course such a Malakite would probably be bashed out of existance on the spot. So they get to choose, either they never Fall or they don't exist. Unless you believe in that life-after-soul death mumbo jumbo. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 02:36:15 -0400 From: Tim Groth Subject: IN> Being Undead It just sorta came to me. Enjoy, or call me names, which ever floats your boat. Babies are born crying because they hear clearly. Without mommy filtering things Death starts comming in loud and clear. It starts telling them that no matter what their life is like its going to end, that nothing they do is going to matter one damned bit. It says it with the confidence of millinia behind it, Death knows what its talking about. Even when we get older we hear it. When its quiet, inside and out, the loudest bit of the Symphony that comes through is Death. Cause it keeps talking to us, assuring us that our time is comming. I spent alot of time alone with Death, and I hated it. I liked everything else about quiet. The worse was when Death started sounding sweet. That's when I'd drink or screw or do anything else I could to make myself stop hearing. On of those things was try to appease death. Dogs, cats, an occasional goat. All offered up to Death at a graveyard. I didn't wnat Death to answer, but it did. One of Its demons came to see me, pulling a body out of its grave to talk to me. The demon told me that I could escape Death, that I could fully embrace my service to it. I accepted, anything to make all that fear go away and to have that hideous certainty on my side. The ritual was nothing like what I expected. It was at a cathedral, way out of town, rarley visited and now made up with all sorts of strange icons, that blended grotesque and absurb. A still born baby was placed on the alter by a man wearing a paper meshe jackel head and costume robes. Black candles were carried in by painfully thin woman that looked like goth crack whores. The demon's face was painted up like a skull and he wore a top hat. None of it made sense to me, I just lay in between the rows of pews like I was supposed to and waited. The demon chanted, and the man in the bad costume chanted, and Death spoke louder than ever. It sounded somewhat angry, screaming at me for daring to escape it. I was affraid it would claim me then and there, to prevent me from escaping it. Then something foul was poured down my throat and suddenly Death spoke kindly to me, like a father would speak to a favored son. That's the way its talked to me ever since. I can hear it now, telling me about how I will help it rise up to drown out the rest of the noise that I can hear now. Terrible strains of music, about flowers and fire and justice and mercy. Aweful bits that try and convince me that my soul is gone and that I'm lost. I am not lost! My soul is mine more than it has ever been. I am immortal. Which is why I'm not worried now. The angels have done their worse, and its just a matter of time before I get back up. They riddled my body with bullets, left me in some ditch. It doesn't matter that I can't feel anything anymore, cause Death is assuring me its only a matter of time. I catch some fleeting bits of the other sounds, and try to hang onto them like Death tells me. I need to come back like a good boy, cause Death needs me to help it win. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 02:09:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Dykes Subject: Re: IN> Interventions. - --- ben wrote: > If you're a renegade, is a 666 still a positive > intervention for you? > > Conversely, do outcasts benefit from a 111? 666 is good for Hell, 111 is good for Heaven. I try to make it bad for all the immediate parties involved, but then, I'm used to GMing Paranoia... The easy intervention for Outcasts and Renegades is immediate Fall or Redemption, depending on how it suits your campaign future, and whether the celestials in question are PCs or NPCs. Or you can complicate things by putting a Triad or squad of of Novy's Redemption Malakim nearby or somesuch and making whatever disturbance echo exceptionally loudly... > If a demon is battling another demon and rolls a > 666, is that good or bad? It's good for somebody...whatever infernal plot element you wish to introduce into your campaign. > If a bad cop shoots at a renegade demon and rolls a > 111, is that good or bad > for the cop? If the PC is the demon, I would go for the the nearby Judge or Redemption Squaddie arriving as the cavalry. It should turn into a case of out of the frying pan, into the fire. The cop isn't likely to kill the demon unless he's packing serious heat and he's already hurt, but facing a Novy Mal Redeemer, well, he's going to Redeem. Or not. 8-) bkd __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:04:58 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Furfur and Hardcore - --On Tuesday, July 18, 2000 9:02 PM -0400 Bull wrote: > Basically, I worked up a Calabim of Furfur who tries to follow the > Hardcore Wrestling aspect of Furfur. Rather than having music > playing when he uses his "extra" Resonance bonus, he has to be > poing a hardcore wrestling manuever (slamming people into concrete > or through tables). No doubt the In Nomine equivalent of the "Zen Shotgun" centering skill. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 06:58:04 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Ranting [was:A fun little thought, with hairy implications] Matt Trent wrote: > Sometimes I just get tired of many people casting angles as perfect > being without doubt or fear or any other flaw that isn't expressed as > outright discord. They have doubt and fear, but they are angels, and choosing to "jump" would be the equivalent of a human spontaneously choosing to gouge his own eyes out. Not likely unless you're suffering from severe mental illness...which in celestials manifests as Discord. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:48:05 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Kyriotates. In a message dated 7/18/00 6:49:33 PM Central Daylight Time, jkarakash@dg-rtp.dg.com writes: << > How many forces does a Kyriotate of Michael have to commit to their vessel? Human vessels 'cost' 5 forces. A Kyrio of Michael gets reallllly interesting once they get 10 forces and can possess a human as well as their own vessel. >> Of course, they could just buy 2 vessels. Anybody ever hear of the Paratwa? :) Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:49:33 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Interventions. Bruce Dykes (and others) wrote: > 666 is good for Hell, 111 is good for Heaven. I agree. Remember that the fundamental meaning of an Intervention is not who it's good for, but that you have the direct action of God or Satan. (Or, if you want them further off stage, at least *more* direct action.) So the GM has to, momentarily, role-play what God or Satan wants to do about this situation. 111 is good for a Renegade if the Renegade is sincerely (or at least sorta sincerely) seeking Redemption -- unless you play God as a real hardass. 666 is good for the Renegade if he's seeking a way back into his Demon Prince's good disgraces. > If a bad cop shoots at a renegade demon and rolls a 111, > is that good or bad for the cop? Depends on the exact dramatic situation. If the demon is a defector, probably bad, at least in immediate effects. Just plain bad would be a weirdo riccochet that bounces back and wounds or kills the cop. Immediately-bad-but-longterm-good would be the demon dying a martyr's death, going to Heaven as a new angel, leaving the cop with a stricken conscience and legal complications that lead to a change of career and life. If the demon is evil-but-alienated, then 111 might be good for the bad cop, probably in a direction leading him to be a good cop. E.g., the demon pulls some ghastly Numinous Corpus on the bad cop, who fires wildly but nevertheless kills the demon thanks to providential riccochet. He rightly concludes "Somebody up there likes me" and reforms his character. Or at least he gets a repuation as a monster-slayer and goes on to try to live up to his new heroic image. Or you could do it the simple way and God simply favored him as the lesser of two evils. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:54:34 EDT From: Daedalus3D@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: Deeply Heretical I'd always assumed that the reason that humans have more than 5-forces occasionally is due to the amount of Grigori blood running through them. Naturally, humans shouldn't be able to have more than 5-forces ever, Period. However, having an entire choir of outcast angels inbreeding leads to some strange results, and I'm not just talking about the Nephalim. Also, I guess, Adam and Eve had 15 forces, so human descendents who have a large enough in-bred amount of their "genes" (it's probably more metaphysical than that though) could have more potential forces too. The cool thing then is that Soldiers would exist at all if it wasn't for the Grigori. Same with Sorcery and the other brands of mortal "magic." Both Heaven and Hell take advantage of the Grigori's children every day. I assume Casca's heretical discussion will continue (it's too good not too) so I'll save my other comments for later. Daedalus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:30:39 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Re: Deeply Heretical Daedalus3D@aol.com wrote: > > I'd always assumed that the reason that humans have more than 5-forces > occasionally is due to the amount of Grigori blood running through them. I believe that's something I even hinted at in the CPG. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:29:36 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: Deeply Heretical David Edelstein wrote: > Daedalus3D@aol.com wrote: > > > > I'd always assumed that the reason that humans have more than > > 5-forces occasionally is due to the amount of Grigori blood > > running through them. > > I believe that's something I even hinted at in the CPG. Just to bring up a literary parallel, in "Many Waters" by Madeline L'Engle (a sequel to her better-known "Wrinkle in Time"), we learn that the wife of Japheth -- one of Noah's three sons -- is, in IN terms, a Child of the Grigori. That would mean that, taking Noah's sons as the forefathers of the whole human race, humans are one twelfth Grigori by blood, on the average. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:32:08 EDT From: Daedalus3D@aol.com Subject: IN> Dead Superiors Okay, I like Eric's idea of the "Liber Temporum" for a couple of reasons. A) as a single book, it would be more likely to ever get printed, unlike the 3 superiors books that I was suggesting. B) Unless you were planning to run a historic campaign, niether the players or the GM really needs _that_ much information on dead Superiors. Hey, the basic info that's included in the main book would be enough. Say, if we could get Dissonance, a few Attunements, and a page on their organization, I would be happy. But . . . I still think that it would be more likely to be done as a Superiors book. I mean, it seems that Superiors books are WBP (What's Being Printed) right now. So, the likelihood of a project being done anytime in the next couple years is significantly improved if it's not too off the beaten path from WBP now. Here's my new revised suggestion, based on the responses to my original (especially Eric's). Superiors #?: The Quick and the Dead. (The "quick" being Uriel, Gebbeleth, and any other Superiors who aren't really dead, just MIA. The "dead," well that's everybody else.) A basic write up on each Superior that's much shorter than a Superior book, but longer than just pure essentials. I'd say the writeups in Revelations would be a good guide. Through reading the combined history of those involved in certain historical events (Legion and Raphael for the Legion Incident, Meserach, Mariel, and Haagenti for the Swallowing Incident) GM's and players should be able to get enough of the basic idea to run at least a few senarios around it. In the back, we could get David to expound on running historical campaigns, fleshing out the bits from the GMG. I also like the idea of including famous historical Word-bound (kudos to Eric). So what do you think? I'm trying to build energy around this (if you haven't noticed). Obviously, I agree with Morgan that having a historical Superiors book is not as important to most players than having current Superiors fleshed out, but I think it would be a welcome break say about half-way through the line. Also, if interest in the Superiors line ever wavers, it could help. Basically, a dead Superiors book would be 90% brand new material, based on about two dozen lines of printed canon. I'm _not_ demanding that the Superiors line should be interrupted immediately for this project, (don't kill me Beth :) please) but I am mainly trying to see that it gets put on the drawing board as something that's important to happen _eventually_. Personally, everyone I know that plays IN would buy a dead Superiors book. Okay, I've said my share. Responses would be greatly appreciated. Daedalus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:51:30 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Dead Superiors Daedalus3D@aol.com wrote: > I still think that it would be more likely to be done as a Superiors book. I > mean, it seems that Superiors books are WBP (What's Being Printed) right now. No, they're what WERE being printed. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:10:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas J Howell Subject: Re: IN> Dead Superiors On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, David Edelstein wrote: > > No, they're what WERE being printed. > > -David > Does this mean that no more Superior books are forthcoming? - - TJ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:24:59 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Dead Superiors Thomas J Howell wrote: > Does this mean that no more Superior books are forthcoming? S4 will be out soon (I am doing final edits now), but I don't think any more are going to be on the schedule for awhile. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:23:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas J Howell Subject: IN> Cinematic gun battles in IN... I was gazing at the picture on page 1 of Superiors 3 today (where an angel is sliding down the hood of a car with both guns blazing) and thought - "Hmmm...there aren't really any rules for attacking this way in In Nomine..." How about this: Attacking two separate people on the same action: - - Do the same damage to both targets but suffer an additional -2 Acc. Attacking one person with two guns: - - Add 1/2 the power of the second gun to the damage total. I still wouldn't allow hand-to-hand attacks to use these rules since they're already obnoxious. (for an in game justification, the hand-to- hand attacks REALLY represent a multitude of blows - perhaps there could be negative modifiers when one hand/arm/etc. is rendered useless). Comments? - - TJ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:29:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas J Howell Subject: IN> Holy vs. Unholy It's always bothered me that IN makes no real distinction between Holy and Unholy pistols. I always thought that attuned artifacts should be difficult to use by the other side. So here's a home rule - If an artifact is specifically mentioned as being either Holy or Unholy, a member of the Other Side cannot use it without penalty. Use causes Dissonance depending on the Level of the artifact. Levels 1 & 2 cause Dissonance every 3 times of use, levels 3 & 4 cause Dissonance every other use, and levels 5 & 6 cause Dissonance EACH time it is used. This increases the cost of the artifact by +5. Comments? - - TJ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:24:23 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Dead Superiors At 11:10 AM -0400 7/19/00, Thomas J Howell wrote: >On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, David Edelstein wrote: > >> >> No, they're what WERE being printed. >> >> -David >> > >Does this mean that no more Superior books are forthcoming? At least one is "in production," meaning it's beyond the playtesting/editing stage and into the editing/layout stage, scheduled (last I knew) for September. Beyond that.... Well, they're not officially discontinued, but I don't know of any being currently written, either. I think the next three or four months are pretty critical for IN's health. My expectation, even if they're vastly back-burnered, is that all the Superiors books will eventually be done. Eventually could be a very long time, however. If sales don't support putting out more than 1-3 supplements a year, Superiors will take half of forever to actually finish -- especially if not every yearly supplement turns out to be a Superiors book (and I know there's an EPG also "forthcoming", for instance). So at least one's on the schedule, I suspect the others are "forthcoming" still, but aside from the scheduled one you might not want to hold your breath. (Though Sup3 seems to be selling well, and that can only help. Someone who actually *knows* something, like Andrew Hackard, should feel free to defenestrate this analysis in lieu of a better informed one.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:20:56 -0700 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Dead Superiors > I'm _not_ demanding that the Superiors line should be interrupted immediately > for this project, (don't kill me Beth :) please) but I am mainly trying to > see that it gets put on the drawing board as something that's important to > happen _eventually_. Personally, everyone I know that plays IN would buy a > dead Superiors book. I would agree, I still want to see the current round of Sup books done also but I think that a book of the "other Superiors" would do well. I also think that a single book with all of them would be the most feasible. Hey, if one or more of them is popular enough then an actual Sup book could be done for them... Heck, the sales to munchkin players alone would justify it, disregarding all the GM's who would like a copy. The Other David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:46:08 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Holy vs. Unholy Thomas J Howell wrote: > > It's always bothered me that IN makes no real distinction between > Holy and Unholy pistols. I always thought that attuned artifacts should > be difficult to use by the other side. They can always be given a Feature (per the Liber Reliquarum) to make that so. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:46:57 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Furfur and Hardcore Bull wrote: > Anyways, I'm curious just how much of "Hardcore" does Furfur embody? While > Night Music basically only discusses the Hardcore Music aspect of things, > his Word is simply Hardcore, not Hardcore Music. > > So could it cover other things considered Hardcore? Porn and Wrestling are > the only two "major" aspects that come to mind. > > Basically, I worked up a Calabim of Furfur who tries to follow the Hardcore > Wrestling aspect of Furfur. Rather than having music playing when he uses > his "extra" Resonance bonus, he has to be poing a hardcore wrestling > manuever (slamming people into concrete or through tables). This is > actually a bit more limiting sometimes, but... :] > > Thoughts? Wrestling is actually a poor venue for 'hardcore' characters. They are putting on an act that is very controlled. A pro-wrestler that got out of control would quickly be unemployed. Now a NON-pro wrestler is basically just a fighter. The trick is to do 'shocking' things. Go to extremes. (Full-contact martial arts is bordering on hardcore...) The essence of 'hardcore' is breaking the normal boundaries of convention, taste or generally accepted practices of decency. Hardcore doesn't let itself be bound by the usual restrictions... in fact it delights in breaking them at every opportunity. Examples: Normal porn: people having sex on the flimsiest of pretenses =) Hardcore: people having sex in ways that would squick the mainstream viewer (insert depravity of choice, here) Fighting: a bunch of street punks beat each other up Hardcore: the winners cut off the left ears of the losers Assassination: shoot the target Hardcore: blow up building that contains the target using the daughter of target as human bomb Crime prevention: get evidence and arrest criminals Hardcore: spoke criminals' drugs that causes blood to pour from their eyes and have them die from violent seizures If you plan a 'hardcore' action and you get the feeling, 'Ewwwww, that was unnecessary', then you've probably got it. Harcore is obvious, very intense, and always breaks conventions. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:32:06 -0700 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Ranting [was:A fun little thought, with hairy implications] > Matt Trent wrote: > > Sometimes I just get tired of many people casting angles as perfect > > being without doubt or fear or any other flaw that isn't expressed as > > outright discord. > > They have doubt and fear, but they are angels, and choosing to "jump" > would be the equivalent of a human spontaneously choosing to gouge his > own eyes out. Not likely unless you're suffering from severe mental > illness...which in celestials manifests as Discord. Thank you for putting that so eloquently David. I was trying to figure out how to respond when your message popped up. The Other David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:42:00 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Dead Superiors At 10:32 AM -0400 7/19/00, Daedalus3D@aol.com wrote: >I'm _not_ demanding that the Superiors line should be interrupted immediately >for this project, (don't kill me Beth :) please) but I am mainly trying to >see that it gets put on the drawing board as something that's important to >happen _eventually_. Personally, everyone I know that plays IN would buy a >dead Superiors book. I don't necessarily see this as an interruption, per se. I see the Liber books, the Player's Guide books, the Cycle books and the Superiors books all being separate lines inside the lines. In fact, it bothered me when the Book of Locations was named "You Are Here" instead of a Liber, because it diminished the Imprint Identification. See, here's how I see the breakdown, imprint-wise, with a UNIX metaphor to hopefully confuse the issue somewhat. Note also that I express an opinion of what they're hoped to be, not what all of them succeed at: MAIN BOOK: The core, obviously. As has been pointed out before, All That's Needed To Play. The Operating System and Kernel. GUIDE BOOKS: The APG, IPG, CPG, GMG and forthcoming (for some definition of forthcoming) EPG. Books that flesh out the core rules. OS and Kernel Patches and advanced packages that can be installed. Optional, but strongly recommended for improved games. Includes some collation from other sources (like the Cycles). LIBERS: The Libers Canticorum, Servitorum, Castellorum, Reliquarum and You Are Here - actual additions to the core rules, expanding on some rules and adding others. Additional packages for new services to be installed on the system. All wholly optional, but each adding great depth and flavor to the rules. SUPERIORS: Sup1-3, with 4 due in September (for some definition of due). Books that correct and expand upon the description of Superiors, plus collation of information from the Cycles, to become revised editions of Superiors, with great expansions and flavor enhancements. Think of new versions of old services, with additional services running on the new processes. Optional, but cleaner and stronger than the originals. CYCLES: The Revelations Cycle, and other rumored Cycles for the future. Adventure books that have some source materials as well. Best used for adventures, with 'source' materials often being revised and developed for one of the other imprints later (for example, the RevCycle has expanded Superiors writeups and new Superiors, both of which are then expanded upon further in the Superiors imprint). Shareware and other totally optional components downloaded and installed when a user wants them for some reason. So, assuming we have a moderate number of yearly supplements printed in future years (which is something of a tall assumption), there's no reason to see a new Liber coming out 'interrupting' the Superiors books. Really, each of the four imprints should see *some* supplements within a year or two for a really healthy line. (An EPG for the guides, another Liber of some sort, Superiors continuing, and *some* kind of adventure book or adventure seeds, properly filed in the Cycles.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1719 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.