From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jul 31 13:21:44 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07288 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:21:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA23633 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:20:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:20:06 -0500 Message-Id: <200007311820.NAA23633@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1746 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, July 31 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1746 In this digest: Re: IN> Anti-Malakim Re: IN> In Nomine Adventures (Was Dead Superiors) Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1745 Re: Good OmINs, was re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract Re: IN> Canonical Questions? Re: IN> Weird artifact #1 IN> Found on ebay... Re: IN> Weird artifact #1 re: Michael and Falling (was Re: IN> Thirty seconds over the re: Michael and Falling (was Re: IN> Thirty seconds over the Re: Good OmINs, was re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract Re: IN> Question... Re: IN> Weird artifact #1 Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract Re: IN> Anti-Malakim IN> McCaffery & BuildACulture (Re: IN Romance -- Opposites Attract) Re: IN> Found on ebay... Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract Re: IN> Anti-Malakim Re: IN> Licence to Smite Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 02:19:10 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Anti-Malakim From: > > How would you do Anti-Malakim? (Fallen Malakim or a version of > Malakim created by Lucifer loyal to Hell and Hell alone)? > > Basically? > > 1:) What would their personalities be like? > > 2:) Their resonances? > > 3:) What would Heaven/Hell's reaction be to this creation of > nastiness? My concept of Fallen Malakim (I privately refer to them as "The Broken,") is that before a Malakite can Fall, it has to break all of its Oaths. If it fulfills any of its Oaths before it can break all of them, the process has to start over again. So if it manages this, it becomes the embodiment of selfishness rather than honor, with its resonance detecting the most selfish and selfless things its target has done, rather than honorable and dishonorable. And each of its Oaths is twisted into something fitting to the Broken's new nature. Heaven makes the destruction of each Broken one of its highest priorities, while Hell is divided between those wanting to get some quick revenge on the Broken for what it did before Falling, and fighting over who gets custody of it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:42:49 -0400 From: Bull Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Adventures (Was Dead Superiors) At 12:35 AM 7/31/00 -0500, Prodigal wrote: >> > *BOGGLE* You like FotM and FT?? You are in a minority >> > of 1 there on this list then. >> >> No, he's not. There are a lot of problems with FotM and FT, but many >> people have pointed out that there's some good stuff in them as well. >> Don't presume to speak for the entire list. > >I have to second what David said. Yes, they have some really deep flaws, but >they have the makings of some unbelievably good adventures in them. > I actually did like them, yes... they weren't perfect, and had plot holes you could throw Lucifer through, but... So did Star Wars :] Overall it was an interesting story, and for me, that makes or breaks something like this :] Bull _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 07:58:54 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract >From: "Prodigal" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: >Subject: Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract >Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:58:04 -0500 > >From: "Jo Hart" > > > > > >It's *not* nice to fool with Mother Nature. Push her far enough, it's > > >going to hurt. > > > > But Novalis isn't Mother Nature, she's the Archangel of _Flowers_. > >Venus Flytraps are flowers... > Which are only dangerous if you are an insect. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 03:02:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1745 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 19:38:14 -0700From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> Weird artifact #1Maurice Lane wrote:> > Here's the first interesting thing I came up with. > Any use that it might have for certain Servitors of > Trade, Revelations or Protection is Strictly > Coincidental. :) >Actually... Servitors of Litheroy couldn't use this >artifact (at least not in any campaign I ran). It's >inherently deceitful to pretend that something is >something that it's not. And to actually conceal the >fact that a sword is in fact a sword, well... >Cheers, -Ryan DOH! I knew that, I really did. That's what happens when you get too cutesy with an intro... :) Anyway, drop "Revelations" (they were never really intended to use the artifacts anyway) from the above. Moe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:36:05 +1200 (NZST) From: Keith Bolland Subject: Re: Good OmINs, was re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract On Sat, 29 Jul 2000, Marc Bowden wrote: > Frozen door-to-door salesmen. On weekends, some of the younger demons > go ice skating. Ooo! Obscure reference allowing a complete diversion from the topic at hand! I just -know- this will have been done before, but I'll ask anyway (maybe someone will take pity on me and point me to a webpage). Superiors - and Choir/Band - for Aziraphale and Crowley. Well, mainly Aziraphale. Crowley is the quintessential Impudite of Dark Humor, at least to my mind. But I just can't wrap my mind around what Aziraphale would be. I know the prologue indicates he was of a Cherubic persuasion, but that doesn't seem any more appropriate than the other "duh" choice, a Mercurian. So, uh, help? I've got a serious itch to write them into a campaign somehow, but I can't see how. [If my blathering isn't making any sense, this is a _Good Omens_ reference. By Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman. Funny as hell. Go read.] Thanks, etc. //-- <*> Keith Bolland ---------------------------------- // "...I'll always know you were just enough of a bastard // to be worth liking." -- Crowley, to Aziraphale ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 07:56:04 -0400 From: "EDG" Subject: Re: IN> Canonical Questions? > Does anyone have any recommendations of places I can go to for canonical > answers to questions if I am unable to find them on this list? There are several places to go, depending upon what your question is. The In Nomine FAQ lives at http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/faq/ The In Nomine Online Errata Archive lives at http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/errata/ There's a small bit of Canon Trivia living at http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/canon.trivia.html The INcyclopedia (hope I capitalized that right), which catalogues canon characters, lives at http://www.incyclopedia.org/ - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 08:56:33 -0400 From: "Krishnaswami, Neel" Subject: Re: IN> Weird artifact #1 Ryan Elias wrote: > Maurice Lane wrote: > > > > Here's the first interesting thing I came up with. > > Any use that it might have for certain Servitors of > > Trade, Revelations or Protection is Strictly > > Coincidental. :) > > Actually... Servitors of Litheroy couldn't use this artifact (at > least not in any campaign I ran). It's inherently deceitful to > pretend that something is something that it's not. And to actually > conceal the fact that a sword is in fact a sword, well... Okay, just give Litheroy's servitors an umbrella with a solid steel core. It really *is* an umbrella; it's just that when you whack people with it they hurt an awful lot. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:12:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Diane J Donaldson Subject: IN> Found on ebay... I cruise ebay for less-than-full-price IN books to use as my secondary office copies, and just found this (cut and pasted, so typos are not mine): Item #396612556 GURPS Generic Universal Role Plaing System is picking up In nOmine as it will be discontinuing it's own run (or so I am told). Two local authors (local to us) are the ones that have written the GURPS - In NOmine book. Earth is the Battleground for Heaven and Hell by Elizabeth McCoy and Walter Milliken. Published by Steve Jackson Games. Elizabeth, Walter, you holding out on us?? ;-) djd ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:15:50 -0700 From: Rolland Therrien Subject: Re: IN> Weird artifact #1 - -----Original Message----- From: Krishnaswami, Neel To: 'in_nomine-l@lists.io.com' Date: Monday, July 31, 2000 6:03 AM Subject: Re: IN> Weird artifact #1 >Ryan Elias wrote: >> Maurice Lane wrote: >> > >> > Here's the first interesting thing I came up with. >> > Any use that it might have for certain Servitors of >> > Trade, Revelations or Protection is Strictly >> > Coincidental. :) >> >> Actually... Servitors of Litheroy couldn't use this artifact (at >> least not in any campaign I ran). It's inherently deceitful to >> pretend that something is something that it's not. And to actually >> conceal the fact that a sword is in fact a sword, well... > >Okay, just give Litheroy's servitors an umbrella with a solid steel >core. It really *is* an umbrella; it's just that when you whack people >with it they hurt an awful lot. :) Ah, you mean the Ryouga Habiki special Depleted Uranium Core battle umbrella? That one's been in business for years! Unfortunetly, it's an invention of VapuTech, which was supplied to the aformentionned Human Martial Artist (an unknowing Soldier of Hell), by his demonic overseer, a Shedite petionning for the word of Pathological Obsession. - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 06:19:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: re: Michael and Falling (was Re: IN> Thirty seconds over the Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 19:09:32 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Michael and Falling (was Re: IN> Thirty seconds over the Vale...) - - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Lane" >> That being said, I doubt that B&B would join forces >> and hold off all comers. Even if Blandine _wanted_ >> to which I can't see her doing), Beleth would never >> believe the offer to be real. I _can_ see Blandine >> finding David and kicking the cr*p out of him, then >> using his unconscious body to lay out Michael*, >>which is something that one really shouldn't let >>happen in front of the relievers. :) [snip] >> *Never fight someone who's been unceasingly at war >> for 20,000 years. There's no way you can have as >> much of a mad-on as her. :) >I realize you're joking here. At least, I hope >you're joking here. 9/10s joking. It was completely joking, until I had the thought that if David wasn't expecting the punch, didn't have his defenses up, and Blandine was really, really irritated, she might clock him hard enough for him to fold up out of sheer surprise. That's how they got Houdini, after all. It's unlikely that it could happen any other way, of course. I just like the image of cartoon Blandine swinging Cartoon Davey (with Xs for eyes) into cartoon Mikey, causing knockback (but not causing him to drop the axe. _Nothing_ will ever cause Mike to drop his axe) at the very least... YMMV Moe P.S. I was going to post a bit about how little Choir-dissonance conditions care about one's intentions, or devotion to God, but then I thought, "Why bother?" I have no intention of using Michael in a way significantly different than his writeup, I'm _not_ going to have him Fall in any campaign I run, so his abberant ways are now (to me, at least) a feature, not a bug. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:55:40 GMT From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: re: Michael and Falling (was Re: IN> Thirty seconds over the >From: Maurice Lane >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: re: Michael and Falling (was Re: IN> Thirty seconds over the >Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 06:19:01 -0700 (PDT) [snip] >I just like the image of cartoon Blandine swinging >Cartoon Davey (with Xs for eyes) into cartoon Mikey, >causing knockback (but not causing him to drop the >axe. _Nothing_ will ever cause Mike to drop his axe) >at the very least... Now *that's* comedy. >P.S. I was going to post a bit about how little >Choir-dissonance conditions care about one's >intentions, or devotion to God, but then I thought, >"Why bother?" I have no intention of using Michael in >a way significantly different than his writeup, I'm >_not_ going to have him Fall in any campaign I run, so >his abberant ways are now (to me, at least) a feature, >not a bug. Well, the beauty of it is this -- since everybody knows the 10 Stupid Seraph Tricks for "How Not To Tell The Whole Truth And Still Never Get Dissonance", I don't have to detail how Michael can do everything he's ever been written up as doing and still go nowhere near his Choir limitations. - -- Chuckg ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:33:47 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Good OmINs, was re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract Keith Bolland wrote: > I know the prologue indicates he was of a Cherubic persuasion, > but that doesn't seem any more appropriate than the other "duh" > choice, a Mercurian. So, uh, help? It says that Aziraphale is, technically, a Principality, though he tended not to bring this up as people usually snickered. A "Principality" in traditional western angelology is the guardian angel of a nation or ethnic group. I conclude that Aziraphale is the Guardian Angel of England (or Britain, maybe, but I'd bet just England). As a guardian angel, cherub still fits quite well. It would also explain why he'd be so aghast at the idea of Armageddon coming. It won't do his attuned (England) any good at all. "There'll Always Be an England" should be one of his favorite tunes. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:55:50 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Question... Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 3:06 AM -0400 7/28/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > >At 2:50 AM -0400 7/28/00, Tim Groth wrote: > >>I can sort of understand the lying argument for why the Balseraph > >>attunement is better, but from a game balance point of view a Master > >>distinction shouldn't be worse. Also why should Kronos know more about the > >>Symphony than Yves, I'm sure Yves can keep a vessel attached when adding > >>the Kyriotate resonance. > > what he said. (Unless Karakash cites something to the contrary, in > which case he & i discuss it. O:>) > Nah, this sounds reasonable to me. They have this TIE to the Symphony, y'see. Freaks other Celestials (and some Superiors) out, it does. In fact, I'd be more inclined to think that Yves' version works BETTER, but not enough to mess with canon. =) > i would say, therefor, that the kyriotate inability to have a vessel is > part of kyrio nature, more than resonance. (Why can't they have their > vessel and hosts too? Simple -- possessing their vessel takes all their > Forces. Of _course_ they can't be possessing anything else at the same > time.) Oh, that's _clever_! - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:05:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Weird artifact #1 On Mon, 31 Jul 2000, Rolland Therrien wrote: > >Okay, just give Litheroy's servitors an umbrella with a solid steel > >core. It really *is* an umbrella; it's just that when you whack people > >with it they hurt an awful lot. :) > > Ah, you mean the Ryouga Habiki special Depleted Uranium Core battle > umbrella? That one's been in business for years! Unfortunetly, it's an > invention of VapuTech, which was supplied to the aformentionned Human > Martial Artist (an unknowing Soldier of Hell), by his demonic overseer, a > Shedite petionning for the word of Pathological Obsession. Soldier of Hell? Nah. I don't see it. I'd say a cursed Ethereal soldier, who was granted great physical strength (5 Corporeal Forces) at the cost of his Precision (seems like a good attribute to tie a sense of direction to). He's also the occasional unwitting tool of the Demon of Making Ranma Saotome's Life a Living Hell. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:14:53 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract From: "Jo Hart" > > >From: "Prodigal" > > > >From: "Jo Hart" > > > > > > > >It's *not* nice to fool with Mother Nature. Push her far enough, it's > > > >going to hurt. > > > > > > But Novalis isn't Mother Nature, she's the Archangel of _Flowers_. > > > >Venus Flytraps are flowers... > > Which are only dangerous if you are an insect. But her writeup DOES state that she will show her thorns, if pressed too far. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:13:40 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Anti-Malakim > > How would you do Anti-Malakim? (Fallen Malakim or a version of Okay, Malakim can't Fall, right? But, as you say, Hell could create it's own butt-kickers. Now, why haven't they? Perhaps it's because Heaven just can do some things that Hell cannot. (Not unreasonable, since the reverse is true.) So, what if you Force-stripped a Malakite and used those forces to make a new kind of demon? We know from canon that some of the nature of the 'donor' exists in their forces (the so-called human to demon conversions and the example of grafting demonic Forces onto a human to give them band attunements). Mind you, Malakite Forces are Very Hard To Come By. =) Such a creature would be rare, indeed. In fact, it casts an interesting light on why the Malakim second oath exists. What if it is a known fact among Superiors in Heaven that their greatest warriors can be used this way? What if only a few Superiors know about it? What if only the Malakim themselves (higher ranking ones, that is), know about it? Is this why outcast Malakim are hunted so ruthlessly, not because they might Fall, but because they are useful as spare parts? This 'anti-malakite' would probably have to have oaths as well to bind its nature together. Immunity to Trauma comes from the oaths, so that's a freebie. The first oath would probably be warped to provide an alternate definition of 'evil'... up to the Demon Prince in question. The second oath is changed enough to provide a demonic POV. Resonance is changed so that the viewpoint of the creating Demon Prince is predominant in the judgement. They would be all the worst that Hell thinks about Malakim and then some. Perhaps more so than any other Band or Choir, they would be ruled by their natures. Because of their unnatural nature, the oaths would probably have to bind them much more severely than with the Malakim. They hardly ever get dissonance because they can't even conceive of breaking them. I agree that the phrase anti-malakite brings back ugly memories of anti-paladins, though! =) - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:35:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> McCaffery & BuildACulture (Re: IN Romance -- Opposites Attract) At 9:06 PM +0000 7/29/00, Jo Hart wrote: >>From: Uncle Wolf >> >>Sounds like somebody has never read "The Thorns of Barevi" by Anne >>McCaffrey, in her short story anthology "Get Off The Unicorn > >If that's the pathetic soft porn one, then I think anyone who has never read >it is v. lucky and should try to continue in that mode ;) She rewrote that scene for her Freedom Planet series. Which was an interesting take of "developing a culture through the eyes of the PCs." Even if she did have her usual fantasytech. To wrench that topic, kicking and screaming, to IN, consider running a Large, Earth-moving, Plot-advancing campaign in that style -- not everything happens to the PCs, though a lot does. They wind up coming home a few times to find the guys there have come up with something cool while they were off adventuring... (The rest of the plot or execution, YMMV, and let's not get into that on the IN list...) - --Beth, typing w/a baby (iolanthe) on her chest. Vapitalizatoin & spelling difficult, typing w/1 hand & supporting baby w/other. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:43:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Found on ebay... At 9:12 AM -0400 7/31/00, Diane J Donaldson wrote: >I cruise ebay for less-than-full-price IN books to use as my secondary >office copies, and just found this (cut and pasted, so typos are not >mine): > > >Item #396612556 > >GURPS Generic Universal Role Plaing System is picking up In nOmine as it >will be discontinuing it's own run (or so I am told). HUH??? Argh. If anyone bothers to READ the boxes in the GURPS IN table of contents, they will clearly see that it says, on p. 4, "We don't plan a whole series of "GURPS In Nomine" books ... further support for the _In Nomine_ world will be in the original _In Nomine_ line." In black and gray (it _is_ a box!), it says that. Anyone who says otherwise is... well, illiterate, I guess. O:op >Elizabeth, Walter, you holding out on us?? ;-) Not on that front, certainly. Don't believe everything you read on ebay. Geeze. - --Beth, typing w/a baby (iolanthe) on her chest. Vapitalizatoin & spelling difficult, typing w/1 hand & supporting baby w/other. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:44:30 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract > >But her writeup DOES state that she will show her thorns, if pressed too >far. > I just don't see the big deal in allowing just one of the superiors to be a committed pacifist. I don't remember Gandhi calling on his followers to take up arms and neither will Novalis, regardless of what venus fly traps do. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:16:39 GMT From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract >From: "Jo Hart" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract >Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:44:30 GMT >>But her writeup DOES state that she will show her thorns, if pressed too >>far. >I just don't see the big deal in allowing just one of the superiors to be a >committed pacifist. Because it pastes a very large bullseye on her head? Right alongside the blinking neon sign saying "DEMONS, PLEASE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF MY GOOD NATURE FOR ALL YOU'RE WORTH"? As I see it, in In Nomine there is no such thing as "out of the war zone". The War spans Heaven, Hell, and all points in between. There is "on the front lines" and "further away from the front lines", but there is no such things as "outside the War". And a 100% committed pacifist caught inside a war zone has the life expectancy of a hamster on an Interstate highway. (A "self-defense only" pacifist, or a "violence is never the first option -- but it is still an option, however last-resort" pacifist OTOH, at least has a *chance* to not be a victim.) >I don't remember Gandhi calling on his followers to take up arms "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." - -- Mahatma Gandhi Gandhi preached civil disobedience and noncooperation, true. Break an unjust law, sit there, get arrested, clog the jails. Show the strength of your resolve by showing that you would rather suffer whatever your enemy chooses to inflict upon you as the price of noncompliance rather than either cooperate with him or fight him. And this does work to change your enemy's mind -- *provided that your enemy still has at least some basic humanity left*. Civil disobedience takes advantage of the fact that although the guy you oppose is unjust, he's still not a totally unscrupulous monster. For example... trying civil disobedience on the US government works pretty well. Trying it on Stalin or Hitler would only have helped him obliterate you faster. Against a foe willing to *oppress* its opposition, civil disobedience can possibly work. Against a foe willing to *exterminate* its opposition, civil disobedience only makes you an easier victim. I mean, what's Baal's or Beliai's response going to be to a non-violent Gandhi-style protest? They won't even *hear* what the opposition is trying to tell them -- they'll see a stationary *object*, whack it with a sword or a flamethrower, and step over the pile of meat on their way to their next object-to-be-whacked. Gandhi's civil disobedience methods only work if your enemy has at least a *smidgen* of concern left remaining as to whether you live or die. When it comes to Hell, that smidgen is simply not there. Individual demons may care or may repent -- demonic society as a whole is still quite firmly focused on the goal of razing Heaven flat and having every angel live either Fall or die. (Regardless of what Heaven's goals vs. Hell are or should be, what *Hell's* goals are re: *Heaven* are unequivocal.) This is why I object to trying to make Novalis into a *total* pacifist. It's like declawing a cat and then throwing it into a pit bull's kennel. The cat would have been on the short end of the odds anyway... but now, it has *no* chance. There was an old joke from one of the Champions supplements... Psycho Vigilante Man -- "FREEZE!" *criminal freezes* *BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM* Psycho Vigilante Man -- "Thanks. I hate moving targets." Being a *total* pacifist in the War between Heaven and Hell would place you in a similar position. Just Another Stationary Target. (Somebody has to be Heaven's resident advocate of mercy, true. And Novalis is it. I am not preaching against mercy, or even against hope. I am just objecting to sticking parsley behind her ears, stuffing an apple in her mouth, and then ringing the demonic dinner bell.) >and neither will Novalis, regardless of what venus fly traps do. Fine then. I'm not saying that we should change canon so as to have the Malakite Archangel of Flowers (although that was an interesting alternative writeup, if you're in that kind of mood), but I am saying that Novalis should be written so as to reflect the reality of the situation she's standing in. Give her ideals, and strong ones, and beautiful ones -- but not *totally* impractical ones. That's just not fair... to her. Novalis is *not* stupid, and she is not naive, and in order to still be a total non-violent pacifist in the 22nd millennia of the War, you'd have to be both. - -- Chuckg ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:34:26 -0400 From: "John J. Maurer, Esq." Subject: Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract - -----Original Message----- From: Charles Glasgow To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Monday, July 31, 2000 1:16 PM Subject: Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract >>From: "Jo Hart" >>Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >>To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >>Subject: Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract >>Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:44:30 GMT >For example... trying civil disobedience on the US government works pretty >well. Trying it on Stalin or Hitler would only have helped him obliterate >you faster. Okay, we've breached the Hitler rule. This argument should be officially over. Please for the LOVE OF GOD end this thread. Speaks ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:48:42 -0700 From: "Sean McCarthy" Subject: Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract Oh, just what we need .. a mailing list rules lawyer. Sean (To keep it relevant, I happen to think The Love Of God is an interesting concept. I'm sure there is a good angel-sounding name that means Love of God in Hebrew. Either as Love Aimed At God or God's Own Love. Anyone know what that name would be? It could be an interesting NPC...) Some agent of The Game said... > > Okay, we've breached the Hitler rule. This argument should be officially > over. Please for the LOVE OF GOD end this thread. > > Speaks > > _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:55:48 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract From: "Jo Hart" > > > >But her writeup DOES state that she will show her thorns, if pressed too > >far. > > I just don't see the big deal in allowing just one of the superiors to be a > committed pacifist. I don't remember Gandhi calling on his followers to take > up arms and neither will Novalis, regardless of what venus fly traps do. It is possible for Novalis to be a committed pacifist, and yet still be capable of resorting to violence if no other choice presents itself. She'll even work her hardest to find another choice, but in the end, even as a Mercurian is capable of waving in the Malakim when all forms of negotiation fail, so too is Novalis able to fight if circumstances dictate. And I brought up venus flytraps because, as Flowers, they fall under her word. Their violence is not that of choice, but rather of necessity (as they would starve otherwise.) So too with the Archangel under whose aegis they fall. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:03:13 -0500 (CDT) From: edg@pyramid.sjgames.com Subject: Re: IN> Anti-Malakim On Mon, 31 Jul 2000, John Karakash wrote: > Mm... evil. >:) Here's my interpretation; thoughts? (Warning! Pidgin Hebrew Alert! ^_^) Ratsachim The Slayers "I will suffer no enemy to live, if it is my choice. I will honor my Prince and my Word at all times. I will never surrender in a fight, nor allow myself to be captured by the forces of my adversary. I will uphold my duty over my feelings. I will never make the first attack." The Ratsachim (singular: Ratsach) are the reformed Forces of captured Malakim, recreated by Demon Princes in the hopes of adding the power of the Virtues to the armies of Hell. Ratsachim have no memory of being angels, only a gut feeling that they have a Purpose In Life... and the Demon Princes creating the Ratsachim give them that purpose. Resonance - --------- The Ratsachim resonance is for dishonor; they can tell when someone has broken a moral code, not only in terms of the target's own integrity but in terms of the Word the Ratsach serves. They themselves are ineffable; if one Ratsach resonates upon a fellow Bandmate, his resonance will misfire (although this does not count as a failure, and he still has full use of the power). It is in this way that Ratsachim can identify each other. In addition, the Ratsachim get /feedback/ when resonating on Malakim, and their resonance not only fails, it may not be used for /twice/ the normal length of time. (Ratsachim use the Malakim check digit results, but they only see the ignoble side; they do, however, see the most ignoble things the target has done with respect to not only the target's own code, but the Word the Ratsach serves.) Dissonance - ---------- Ratsachim are disgusted by dishonor much as Habbalah are by weakness, and they seek to purge themselves of it as much as possible. When he is created, a Ratsach swears at least five oaths which reflect his code of honor; violating any one of these oaths causes him dissonance. Three of these oaths are part of the Ratsachim nature, and are a constant among all of the Band. First, a Ratsach will never allow an enemy to live, if it is his choice. Given the opportunity to dispose of an enemy, a Ratsach will take it; however, the simple change from enemy to non-enemy is enough to defuse this oath. Second, a Ratsach holds his Prince and his Word above almost all else. Ratsachim will follow the orders of their Princes without question; the only exception is when the Prince orders a Ratsach to violate one of his oaths. This is intolerable to a Slayer, and when this happens - which is, understandably, rare in the extreme - the Ratsach tends to swear loyalty to an neutral Prince, and declare his former master to be an enemy. Third, a Ratsach will never surrender in a fight, nor allow himself to be captured by the forces of an enemy. While a Ratsach can (and, rarely, will) show weakness, surrendering is the ultimate disgrace, and being a captive prevents the Ratsach from performing his duties. There is a fourth, unspoken oath, though this does not cause dissonance. Each night at sundown, the Ratsachim all kneel and recite their oaths. If they fail to perform this ritual, the Essence normally gained at sundown is lost to them. Manner and Appearance - --------------------- In their celestial forms, Ratsachim are shadows, moving silently from place to place. Any creature looking upon a Ratsach in his celestial form must roll Will; if he fails, he sees in himself what the Ratsach would see with his resonance (the check digit of the resonance roll being equal to the check digit of the failed Will roll). Ratsachim share their opinions on vessels with the Malakim. Ratsachim almost always move very quietly. They are soft-spoken and inobtrusive, always watching. Those who notice them get the impression of hundreds of thousands of eyes, hiding in the darkness, watching everybody's every move. Game Mechanics - -------------- A Ratsach begins play with no fewer than five oaths, sworn at creation. Each oath beyond the fifth grants two extra character points. Ratsachim are one of the few demon Bands with a Perception-based resonance; they use the check digit table of the Malakim, but only gain the ignoble results. Failing the Perception roll disallows the use of the resonance for a number of hours equal to the check digit of the failed roll. Resonating a fellow Ratsach gives no result at all (and the knowledge that it was a Ratsach who was resonated), but resonating a Malakite always fails, and causes the Ratsach's power to short-circuit for /twice/ the normal length of time! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:07:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Licence to Smite > Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:26:47 -0500 > From: "Charles Glasgow" > Subject: Re: IN> Licence to Smite > (Canonically, a lot of Heaven's intelligence > operations are Michael's > anyway... he has more agents in place (a lot of them > Saints), more sleeper > agents, more "off-the-record" contacts with neutrals > and ethereals and > Renegades, etc, etc, than half the Host combined.) > But while I > understand your intent to fit Zadkiel in somewhere > (so as to give her > something to do), the sad fact is that half the > stuff you've got her doing > is already canonically allocated to Michael, and the > other half still fits Canonically allocated? Sure. Exclusively canonically allocated? _That_ I'd argue. :) I'm playing without a net here, BTW (as I'm at work and away from my library), so bear with me. Any intelligence agency worth its salt on Earth has its own paramilitary arm (except, of course, for the CIA*) that can be used for what is sometimes called "direct action". Now, they can often utilize formal military forces, but there are situations where soldiers are ill-suited by training and inclination to carry out certain objectives ... and there are times where you need someone, anyone, there _right_ _now_. It's more efficient to have a permanent force (especially if it's one where _you're_ the final authority, rather than a absent military hierarchy). Now, extend this to the Host. There are quite a few discrete, organized forces, ranging from ronin (Gabriel) to disorganized warbands (Janus, David [sorta])to internal security / political officers (Dominic) to formal military forces (Laurence, Michael). They all can be quite useful, but they have their own masters/mistresses, and their names aren't Marc or Litheroy. :) Besides, dissonance problems make for fun headaches. Larry's knights aren't too good at improv. Dave's gangbangers tend to reactive responses, rather than proactive. The Hounds of God would enjoy playing Mission: Impossible, actually, but they can't be trusted to not report back to the Big D him/herself. Windies can't spend a month screwing with somebody's head: heck, they can't spend a long weekend on the task. Mikey's warriors have difficulty knowing when to cut and run (well, it's more like they know, but they don't really _care_). Gabbie's Lost Lambs have their own problems. Marc & Litheroy might have preferred to get some Creationers, but Eli doesn't answer the phone anymore. Really, a group who's major problem is that they have to successfully defend the faithful (i.e., win) is pretty attractive to someone who needs special/covert ops work done. They'll use the other groups, if and when, but Zaddie's people are pretty much the default option. Anyway, that was my rationalization behind it all, so if you don't wanna use Zaddie, feel free. It ain't a deal breaker for the rest (and it _does_ give Marc and Litheroy some other reason for existence. Two out of three ain't bad). :) Moe *Of _course_ they don't have anybody that can do discreet wet work or subversion. Really. I mean it. :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:18:50 -0500 From: "Eeyore" Subject: Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract - -----Original Message----- From: Charles Glasgow To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Monday, July 31, 2000 12:24 PM Subject: Re: IN> IN Romance -- Opposites Attract >I mean, what's Baal's or Beliai's response going to be to a non-violent >Gandhi-style protest? They won't even *hear* what the opposition is trying >to tell them -- they'll see a stationary *object*, whack it with a sword or >a flamethrower, and step over the pile of meat on their way to their next >object-to-be-whacked. And accomplish what, exactly? You can play your Flowers however you like, but mine (actually a Creationer in Service to Flowers, but she has the zeal of a convert) is pretty close to a total pacifist. As Rachel sees it, except in those rare circumstances when she adopts celestial form, what's the worst that a demon can possibly do to her? Put her into trauma. That'd suck, but she'll make it back. This War is one in which one has to throw Clausewitz right out the window. It isn't *about* destroying the enemy's forces. It's about making sure that more human souls turn to Heaven than to Hell. How is this accomplished by teaching them violent solutions to their problems? In fact, if the Flower does his job properly, the demon that slays him has been quite counter-productive. There are few situations that have as many possibilities for promoting selfless behavior as after a tragic death. > >Gandhi's civil disobedience methods only work if your enemy has at least a >*smidgen* of concern left remaining as to whether you live or die. When it >comes to Hell, that smidgen is simply not there. Individual demons may care >or may repent -- demonic society as a whole is still quite firmly focused on >the goal of razing Heaven flat and having every angel live either Fall or >die. The analogy breaks down. Your equivalent of the British aren't in charge. It's the attitude of your *Indians* that's important. >This is why I object to trying to make Novalis into a *total* pacifist. >It's like declawing a cat and then throwing it into a pit bull's kennel. >The cat would have been on the short end of the odds anyway... but now, it >has *no* chance. Sure it does. Oh, it's going to get ripped apart, all right. But there is a fair chance that the folks who watched you toss the cat in are going to be thoroughly disgusted by your behavior and work to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. If so, that's a Flower that can feel good about a job well done when she comes out of Trauma. J. Michael Neal Of course, my Kyrio of Fire has a rather different perspective on things... ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1746 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.