From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Aug 1 00:51:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA02452 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 00:51:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id AAA26195 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 00:50:44 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 00:50:44 -0500 Message-Id: <200008010550.AAA26195@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1750 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, August 1 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1750 In this digest: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1749 IN> A thesis on the In Nomine list IN> Eli's Creationalism IN> Evil Eli (was: What's up?) IN> Hi Re: IN> Celestial Poisons Re: IN> Anti-Malakim IN> [DARK VICTORY] Colonel Maria Tzetke IN> The Anti-Malakim and their beliefs Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Colonel Maria Tzetke Re: IN> The Anti-Malakim and their beliefs Re: IN> A thesis on the In Nomine list IN> Ratsachim IN> Malakim Falling? Yeah right. Re: IN> The Novalis Argument (Was the thread that would not die) Re: IN> What's up? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:58:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1749 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:08:34 -0700From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> What's up?BillionSix@aol.com wrote:> >> Here's something I'm curious about. What the hell >> has Eli been up to? Does he have a secret plan? Or >>is he just out having fun? >Well, the vast majority seems to have a pretty >positive view of Eli's little vacation, and although >I'm inclined to agree, I'm going to take a stab at >(what will hopefully be) a bit of a darker view. >See, Eli's looking to Jump. Or at least go seriously >outcast. >Of course, he knows it'll be one hell of a struggle >down in Hell. He may have to destroy Belial outright >(and wouldn't mind doing so if possible) and possibly >other Princes as well if things go badly (although he >already has tentative allies in Andrealphus and >Vapula...). But he's confidant that he can hold them .off, and besides, when the alternative is the >destruction of everything that's ever been created... >well... >there's no choice at all, really. >Cheers, >Ryan _Kewl_. Of course, I don't buy it at all, but it's still outrageously over-the-top. :) Heh. I'm imagining Gabriel's reaction (torn, of course: can you really Smite somebody who's ended another's Cruelty to you), not to mention Yve's... ... oh, wait: what if the above is Eli's _Destiny_? I still don't buy it at all, but at least I'm grinning now. :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Feeling Much Better Now __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:37:55 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> A thesis on the In Nomine list As Beth so tactically pointed out. We've lost the purpose for this list. If I may take it upon myself to give the reasons why I like this list and joined I will as follows. 1. To talk about In nomine with people who love the game. Okay simply put I like talking alot....not really about anything meaningful for a game on occasion. Maybe your thoughts on why Dominic is such a blowhard or whether Laurence and Gabrielle are chaste or not (admittadly a real question in my games) and whether or not Michael is the holiest of the holy. Exchange stories, reflections, fanfic and humor. Basically I joined to make online friends with mutual interests. 2. To discuss stuff about In Nomine Now I made my points about just friendly chit chatting on the list now I'd like to share on occasion this inalienable fact-sometimes my game ideas suck. I when I joined this list didn't have the Gamemasters handbook or any superiors books and didn't realize how good they were until David and Beth pointed it out (thank you). I also realized how little I knew about some of the actual rules.... So I use this list to clarify. 3. To get ideas about adventures/NPCs/artifacts/secret societies This is pretty much self-explanatory. I try to contribute and like when other people contribute. 4. To find out about In nomine's future This is a good game and I like what's comming out on it (as a matter of preference I prefer the In Nomine Superiors write ups to the Revelations Cycle by leaps and bounds-others may disagree) plus the whole trouble people claim the game line (and may be correct) is in. News that concerns me. Now though...I've noticed something that really *sucks* I think. 1. Nitpicking Sure it was funny to begin with, you even made a funny wrap up about it but geez I get a digest format and I have to weed through hearing other people corrected about terminology all the time. Also...I don't care if I'm wrong about spelling or what I call my seraphim (singular). Frankly...it's annoying and I don't really want to be corrected because I don't bother to spellcheck or look over my work. Certainly it's hurt me before (I would correct my Laurence write up for the Collection-which I'm grateful was published TRULY EDG so it's not one big one on sentence) but I think everybody knew what I was talking about... Really....stop it. 2. Arguing subjects to death I understand that whether Novalis will defend herself if there is no recourse or meekly submit to death (as I would) is a important campaign distinction but the fact remains until "Flowers, Wind, and all of God's Creation" comes out (Superiors X) this is something no one can truly prove with the present information. Certainly the "truly pacifist" or "militant defender" will be an alternate view in any case. The same applies for other questions without answers. I'm grateful for discussing whether or not Khalid should be the Archangel of Faith with the dissonant conditions he has with almost 3 entire threads devoted to it....but it covered a number of issues in it and we recognized that no one had the write answers-we really don't need to repeat ourselves. If we've said something, nothing more to say really. Take it off list I think...I hope people would say I should... 3. Lack of respect It's odd but when religeous issues came up earlier in the digests I was pleasantly surprised everybody had a opinion yet when they shared it they weren't condemning or angry about it. I know for the most part we haven't broke this law yet quite openly David and others in this list have been called jerks, fools, and crass (I won't cuss on this list but you know what word I'm thinking). Leave any personal opinions at the door is something that I really don't like but something I'm willing to believe...I mean frankly we don't know each other very well but we're all here to discuss the game. Just something to get off my chest. - -Charles Phipps I play a Seraphim of Flowers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:46:15 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Eli's Creationalism This is a topic that's really one that can never be revisited enough (probably why his Superior book isn't out yet-it'll spoil the surprise). In my campaign I'm going with the whole "Eli is good" thing which I like because I like my archangels to be good and the whole matter of his working for humanity and buildling creation personally appeals to my sense of snubbing my nose against authority. In my game Eli is hoping to return the Grigori to Heaven by creating a Nephilim Archangel of Humanity to bridge the two worlds and counterbalance Lilith (who may redeem in my game anyway). Of course Dominic has only the barest idea and bones about this plot which is one of the reasons he's suspicious (he's gone, his servitors are away, he's visiting all these party dens, GRIGORI!). In truth he's inspiring creation while working on his prodject in order to gather enough essence to pull of his miracle. However they'res also good cause to note that Eli might just be on vacation and that he's really bored as all get out with Heaven and it's Rules (Snake Blisken anybody?). This Eli looks like he could end up tripping and serving the word of Sloth for Hell. Thinking basically that Creation (himself) has gotton way out of hand and it's time that he stop doing anything for a few billion years, let the demons tear down a bit, and quit shoving you bloody angels RELAX! Another fun theory of mine is that Eli believes his word encompasses all things and thus basically he really needs to expand his base of operations....forget everything that's gone before and start from scratch. His servitors are on loan because he needs the information on their words and for them to operate in every aspect of Heaven for his word to function properly....what he's planning is basically something that will propell him to leadership (by necessity) of the Host and make him the most powerful of archangels up to including Yves and Michael put together. Plus theres the whole theory he decided to work personally like his servitors but tripped up and now is a half revenant and can't remember what he's supposed to do...so he's trying to figure it out while covering it up for his servitors. The Eli and "God destrosy the world" is an interesting one too. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:59:21 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Evil Eli (was: What's up?) >That doesn't make any sense... God MADE the Earth. He made the Archangels, >who are all tied to the Earth in very real ways. Destroying the Earth >would litterally drive the entire Host insane, since their words would >become meaningless almost overnight. This presumes God is actually on the Angels side.... Here me out in this game. A:) The Angels are not the divine beings he wants them to be anymore than the demons B:) The Higher Heavens are already shut off from them. C:) Humanity certainly sucks half the time or more.... Ergo God has decided to destroy the world again....this time more permanently unlike the dinosaurs. Maybe work with something like Koala Bears or something less offensive. "Mutant Plant People" Snakes for sheer ironic value. >Considering the number of princes on Lucifer's side who advocate all out >extermination of mankind (Beleth, Baal, Belial, Saminga, etc...), I doubt >Lucifer wants to save the Earth. Even the Princes of Shal-Mari are mostly >interested in draining Humanity of every Forces they're worth. Counterpoint; Beleth wants to torment humanity and torture them. I doubt she wants them destroyed...they've commited too many sins against angels for mere death...only eternal suffering will suffice. Baal: Baal in my mind wants to beat Heaven. Humans have occasionally shown themselves to be loyal to Hell so he's fighting really Heaven's game in reverse. Belial: He just likes burning things, especially gabriel. Destroying the world would be cool but he'd need a new world to burn... Saminga: May want to destroy the world but on his smarter momments he may just think "Who dies after I kill everything...damn it will be boring" Lucifer on the other hand I think is inscrutable and depises humanity but he despises everything so that's not a major fault of his. Also he's willing to take in anybody no matter what views on the "ultimate end" they espouse...it's Asmodeus who keeps them from destroying the world. I quote Damien Thorne from the Omen III. (not exact) "The Christian God has Ten Commandments, I have only one. Love me above all other things." >Lucifer, perhaps... Mind you, that doesn't mean that the Princes would >agree... Anyone remember Furfur, Prince of Hardcore? Half the Princes in >Hell wanted to kill the upstart before he gained his princedom, and the >other half wanted him to have it. And that was a word that had potential >for destruction. >Creation is too strong a word for any one prince in Hell to have, without >the rest of Hell to look at him with envy and hatred. The destructive >Princes would see him as anathema to their Words, and the Takers would want >to steal his links to creation (Sex, art, food) for themselves. Perhaps that's true but recall that his link to Heaven would be severed and it would become immediatly linked to the Hellish aspects of it. Eli might become the Demon Prince of Rebellion, Sloth, Corruption (after all he's going against God's will in all things-preserving humanity), or Reality (which would have different conotations than Creation). Eli, Prince of Corruption Allied: Andre, Kobal, Lilith Associated: Fufur, Nybbas, Haagenti, Baal, Vapula Hostile: Asmodeus (we all against God for Christ's sake...DOH forget I said Christ), Belial (Too Elementally jealous), and Beleth (witch) Enemy: Saminga (Creationnnn BAAAAD, Death good to quote Saminga), Kronos Neutral: Everybody else >Eli would never become a Demon Prince, mostly because half the Princes in >Hell are opposed to his word, and the other half want to steal everything >linked to his word. You can't steal from Eli. Everything is already his. >You mean to say that Dominic's suspicions concerning Eli aren't just his >usual Paranoia, but that he's right? Imagine... 2 foul ups do not make a bad percentage. >Like I said... Eli would never survive as a Demon Prince, because half the >Princes would kill him outright, and others would stand back, watch the >chaos, then argue on what left-overs of Creation they'd keep for themselves. You see them as seeing him as any enemy. I see the above as seeing him as an oppurtunity for some serious victory and most of all... *POWER* - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:20:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin P Meares Subject: IN> Hi I just joined the list so I thought I'd make a brief post about my interest in In Nomine and my background as it relates specificly to the subject. I've been a a gamer for about 14 years now and have been interested in In Nominae more or less since it first came out. Partly its the fact its an interesting concept and two it fits into on of my other non gaming interests which I"ll get to in a sec. I've also run In Nomine at a few cns and am planning to continue to do so. There are two other things I'll mention before I go. First is that I'm a researcher for the Deleware Valley Demonology Research which is a real life group that investigates spirits human and other wise. As you may imagine it gives me a some what unusual perspective on In Nomine so if any one would care for some suggestions on adding new aspects to demons and angels from that aspect feel free to ask me. In eddition I'm currently batting around the idea of revamping the the In Nomine world for my own private use. My sole bone to pick with the game lies in the way its altered some of the archangels. To be perfictly honest the way that Michael and Gabriel have been protrayed are the main things I'm planning on trying to rework. Basicly I want to rework it to fit traditional mythology more(its a personal thing really and would take a long time to completely explain). I mention it because I could use some help and suggestions. The main basic things I'm thinking about are brinking back Raphael and Uriel(some thing I'd really like help with) as superiors bringing and creating an over seeing organization with the four of them and 3 more as its heads and Michael the de facto leader and prince of heaven. The trick also is picking the other 3 although Azrael would be another thought any suggestions? ===== http://the_master_2.tripod.com/mywebpage/ my home page(under construction) http://www.demonologyresearch.com the web site of the dvdr that I am a member of Love seeketh not Itself to please, Nor for itself hath any care; But for another gives its ease, And builds a Heaven in Hell's despair. William Blake The Clod and the Pebble __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 2000 20:32:07 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Poisons On Mon, 31 July 2000, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > out as the angel goes into a state of "Mmmm! Wanna cuddle and show love > and caring and snuggling and everything rings with the Symphony and > I LOVE just _everyone_ here, even that demon on the couch who just > doesn't see the light entirely yet but we're working on her..." I have a player whose charater is like this. All the time. Ad nauseum. ...and she's a -Dominican-. Aiiiiieeeeee... - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:50:48 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Anti-Malakim > > Mind you, Malakite Forces are Very Hard To Come By. =) >Such a creature would be rare, indeed. In fact, it casts an >interesting light on why the Malakim second oath exists. Ah ha... neat. >Is this why outcast Malakim are >hunted so ruthlessly, not because they might Fall, but because >they are useful as spare parts? I really, really like this idea. It's consistent with canon yet adds a neat, previously unconsidered dimension to the Mals and their foes. I do believe I will use it IMC one day. And this despite my being another one who has _very bad_ memories of D&D anti-paladins. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:59:16 -0500 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Colonel Maria Tzetke Two months had passed since the day the world ended for Maria Tzetke. She has no memory of the time before that day; her memories of any day before are foggy at best, with a choice slice of delusions brought on by the injuries she suffered that day. Images of striding seven leagues at a step, a flaming sword and a shield of adamant, and monstrosities even more terrible than the creatures her troopers turn up every day now, a few human, most not. She sleeps maybe three, occasionally four restless hours a night. It takes an effort for sleep to come, and when she sleeps there are no dreams, only a moment or two of quiet oblivion interspersed with extreme discomfort and, occasionally, dreadful nightmares. Once or twice she's awakened with a slash on an arm or leg that hadn't been there before, but nothing serious... only terrifying. Unfortunately, a colonel in the United States Army cannot afford to show fear, especially not with five competing United States, two Confederate States, a reborn Republic of Texas, and hundreds of cities cast adrift in the wake of chaos. The Army has to stand and bring order, put down rebellions, and protect the poor frightened people around her. She looks out from her command jeep, an old surplus model dug out from the Arkansas National Guard armory by requisitions. Around her are her soldiers, some 6,000 troops gathered from scattered and confused commands in Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma and Texas... mostly people cut off from home, seeking purpose, hoping that their new commander can make things right again. She could weep at the thought that, by her orders, some of these poor, sad creatures will die from her commands. She knows every single name, although she has spoken no more than once with the vast majority of them. She loves them as her children, and their lives weigh heavily in her hands. "The rebel Texans have opened up the rail lines to Palestine," her adjutant, Lieutenant Marley, smiles from behind his Coke-bottle lenses. "A quick raid should supply our forces for long enough to take Dallas, and with Dallas we should have enough supplies and manpower to pacify this entire region." Tzetke nods sadly, regretting the necessity of terrorizing innocent civilians, doubtless seeking any order after Armageddeon. Still, Texas is in rebellion against the United States, and the rebellion must be stopped. She doesn't understand why that's so important, but the rebellion MUST be stopped... COLONEL MARIA TZETKE aka ZADKIEL, ANGEL OF PROTECTION CORPOREAL - 6 (Str 12, Agi 12) ETHEREAL - 4 (Int 4, Pre 12) CELESTIAL - 3 (Will 10, Per 2) Vessel: Human Female (Cha +2, right eye missing, eyepatch, golden hair and Amazon figure), Role/6 Maria Tzetke, Colonel, US Army) (Zadkiel has many other vessels, but does not know of their existence.) Zadkiel has all of Protection's Attunements and Distinctions, but may not grant them. Zadkiel has all of Protection's Rites. Discords: Bound/6, Obsessed (rebellion, putting down)/4 Zadkiel could almost be considered fortunate; she faced Mammon, one of Hell's weaker Princes, on the day of Armageddeon. The battle was brief, but vicious, and although Mammon was destroyed, Zadkiel was thrown in a jumble of barely coherent forces from the walls of her citadel, landing on Earth in one of her many Vessels. A demon of Factions, a lowly 8-Force Djinn named Alamarle, had figured out the Colonel's identity some time before the Final Battle, and he had been assigned to watch for her comings and goings. With her sudden return, battle-scarred and amnesiac, he took the opportunity to persuade her to subdue those who would rebel against the authority of the United States. As her adjutant and chief of staff, he has effectively commanded her forces ever since, beginning with rallying a company near the wastes of Washington and moving westward, picking up troops as she went, ever towards Texas, which 'Lt. Marley' had pointed out was the most dangerous of all the rebel forces. Zadkiel now has a small army moving around northeastern Texas. Although not aware of her Celestial nature, she is subconsciously converting the dissonance from her military campaign (leaving some unprotected to serve the 'greater good' into Discord. That Discord is following the path set by Alamarle, and Zadkiel's sanity is now in grave danger. On the one side, her heart remembers the bottomless love she holds for humans, but on the other she is subject to occasional temper tantrums and irrational acts where the issue of 'rebellion' is concerned. In her more lucid moments, usually after another fantastic memory of her celestial existence comes to the fore, she thinks that the best way to protect the people is to disband her army and let them protect their own homes.... but Lt. Marley is always there to remind her of the stern call of duty and the needs of the nation. Zadkiel is tired and heartsick, and the nightmares she has when she can get a rare moment of sleep are almost as frightening as the dazzling glimpses of glory she sees in her flashbacks. (The nightmares are all too real, by the way- Malphas has arranged for a few of Beleth's tiny remnant of Servitors to watch the Marches for Zadkiel; when she pops up in the Marches, they charge after her, and she's had a couple of very close calls so far...) PLOT ELEMENTS Zadkiel's army is easily shifted to any point in the United States where your DV campaign might be located. I placed her in Texas in direct opposition to the Preserver faction in Austin, so Zadkiel's forces may be encountered either by a party leaving Texas to investigate events elsewhere or by a party sent specifically to investigate raids on farms, small towns and rail lines in north Texas. It should be obvious fairly quickly that there are Celestials in 'Colonel Tzetke's' army; Zadkiel expends Essence unconciously for things like the Song of Corporeal Healing, and Alamarle has been careless about his own expenditures of Essence. Add to this the disturbance every time Colonel Tzetke goes target shooting, and the party will realize fairly quickly what's going on. The players will figure out fairly quickly that Lt. Marley is a demon; he delights in abusing his power when the Colonel isn't watching, and he's particularly nasty to prisoners 'trying to escape.' The Colonel, however, is a less easily recognized factor; she varies between being sweet and friendly to terrifying and stern. Dreamwalkers will have the easiest time finding the Colonel's true identity, for in the Marches Zadkiel retains a recognizable form. If the party has no one with the talent for entering the Marches, things will be more difficult, but with encouragement, Zadkiel will regain enough memories to recognize her true nature... and with that recognition will come a reckoning with Alamarle, who has a hotline to a potent Baron of Factions to insure that Zadkiel won't be allowed to rejoin the forces of Heaven. Zadkiel is no longer an Archangel, but she is more potent than her progenitor Novalis. She will occupy an important place in the New Heaven hierarchy, and she will assist Novalis in the recruiting of scattered angels, Orphans, Outcasts and Renegade demons to the cause of preserving Creation. Her most important role, however, may be as the new military commander of the forces of Heaven... if she feels confident enough to accept the responsibility, and if she feels her duties to humanity do not interfere. Redneck Kris Overstreet, aka Redneck Gaijin publisher, White Lightning Prod. - www.wlpcomics.com I ***LOATHE*** Microsoft Outlook. Please get Eudora. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:53:57 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Anti-Malakim and their beliefs >I had another idea about an Anti-Malakim, that works like this: Malakim are >basically the ultimate Samurai; honorable and fearless. Now, what is the >opposite of a Samurai? A Ninja! So a good Anti-Malakite should be a >demonic Ninja. A Shadow-like being with attunments towards deception and >self-concealment, working through tricks and illusions. I can see this perfectly because contrary to common beliefs about the Ninja they weren't entirely against the idea of confronting their enemy up close and personal with blades....it was merely they would do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING THEY COULD to destroy their foes. An Anti-Malakite would basically be an honorable warrior (like Baal) who believed it was perfectly permissable to murder a man's entire family in order to cause him distress about betraying the order before fighting him while weak. >Darth Vader rip-offs get rather boring, when overused. And they should >never be allowed as PC characters. >- -Exit the LoneWolf Not necessarily. It's true most do not make good characters because basically the inspirations for the Anti-Malakim....(IMHO) Darth Vader Darth Maul ("At last we will have our revenge") Damien Thorne General Krull Kronos (The Horseman from Highlander: The Series not the Fate lord) The Knights of Takhasis (From The Second Generation of Dragonlance) are intimidating because their fanatically devoted to their cause, without fear, and perfect warriors which the latter is not something that necessarily most STs will want in their characters.. However in a demonic High powered political campaign such a character might prove very interesting. Particularly as a servitor of Baal, Asmodeus, and Kronos. "I live only to serve you master Baal, give me your bidding so that I may enforce it." These demons not being selfish but truly honestly believing in Hell with all their hearts and souls. Most demons would be probably openly mocking of them....when their not around. Many however (particularly Habbalah) would likely be drawn to the intensity of such True believers. Michael certainly would love them as much as he would call for their complete and utter annhilation. Seraphs especially so "The universe has become so depraved that the lie now feeds almost as succienltly as the truth" Certainly Laurence would be deeply shaken. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:13:10 -0700 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Colonel Maria Tzetke > Two months had passed since the day the world ended for Maria Tzetke. > COLONEL MARIA TZETKE > aka ZADKIEL, ANGEL OF PROTECTION Oh yeeeaaahhhh! I love Dark Victory. Keep it coming. The Other David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:20:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin P Meares Subject: Re: IN> The Anti-Malakim and their beliefs The idea seems intruiging to me. Well maybe not a precise opposition band but the idea of a dark warrior demon. Demons are creatures of death by there very nature. The bible reffers to Satan as being the a liar and a murderer. The concept of honor isn't even antithetical to an evil character. Lucifer and God have the same basic goal creating an ordered system in the universe. The difference is Lucifer thinks hes better suited to rule than God. Both in a sense serve the precepts of order not chaos. Some demons could have honor in terms of In Nomine Baal and his servants do. I don't think its some thing Lucifer would necissarily condone given that he is the purest form of evil in creation he would probably see things more from the stand point of win by any means necissary. If one was to posit the shadow warriors though I think they would probably be very rare especially outside of the service of Baal. ===== http://the_master_2.tripod.com/mywebpage/ my home page(under construction) http://www.demonologyresearch.com the web site of the dvdr that I am a member of Love seeketh not Itself to please, Nor for itself hath any care; But for another gives its ease, And builds a Heaven in Hell's despair. William Blake The Clod and the Pebble __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 00:16:48 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> A thesis on the In Nomine list Good post. >Now though...I've noticed something that really *sucks* I think. > >1. Nitpicking Seconded. Unless the person is an IN writer, or plans to be, this is dinky. Like wearing fluffy bunny slippers on Casual Friday, done occasionally it's cute, done regularly it's annoying. >2. Arguing subjects to death Seconded. When I see one of these talk-talk threads building up, I start skimming, so it's no big deal. It is annoying, though, especially for those who have to pay for bandwidth. Godwin's Law has already been mentioned. There's another Net Rule that says, if you're posting the third time in a day on the same subject, you're probably posting too much. >3. Lack of respect Seconded. Very firmly seconded. I am occasionally slightly lax in this regard -- mea culpa, thumpa thump (but onlny occasionally, I think, and I generally feel bad about it afterwards). "Lack of respect" is a nice way to put it, BTW; it covers more than flaming. Bad manners, over-snippage, under-snippage, "aren't-you-stupid" type comments, ad hominem attacks, baiting, sneering, picking quarrels, condescension and general low-grade trollery all come under this Word. We can do better. This is a very civilized list on the whole, and we really should try to keep it that way. >Just something to get off my chest. Thanks, Charles. Well spoken. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 02:01:45 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: IN> Ratsachim VERY well done... I think this is about to become canon (though very much UNKNOWN canon) in my game.... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! Want to hold up a bank in Latin? "Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam." (I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 17:22:59 NZST From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: IN> Malakim Falling? Yeah right. Ok then. Here is my view on Malakim and Dark Malakim or whatever you would call a Fallen Malakim. As well as the idea of Lucifer creating a new Band to stand against the Malakim. We need to explore the fundamental differences between the way we humans think, and the way a Celestial thinks. A human has a soul and a mind that is out of touch with the Celestial Symphony. It is clouded with self-doubt, with insecurities and with emotions that Angels and Demons simply cannot understand. We find it difficult to accept the existence of a Supreme Being just as much as we find it hard to believe that Angels walk among us and are organised and categorized like any large corporation. An Angel's mind is complex and simple at the same time. The complexities stem from the fact that we *cannot* understand them. They work in ways that some would call counterproductive to the immediate goal, but the Angel can see the implications hundreds sometimes thousands of years down the track from that one event. The Simplicity comes from a pure connection to the Divine. The Universe as a whole. There is no doubt that God exists just as there is no doubt that they exist. I can see an Angel slapping Descartes across the face whilst screaming "WRONG!" to him. Their minds are crafted as per their choir for a specific task, just like their resonance. Seraphim don't just detect the Truth, they live it, they are it. There can be no time when they think "is this the truth?" because they know that it is. As a side point this can also be the reason why they Fall. All choirs have the same mindset. The Malakim present a problem, but no problem is without solutions. The Malakim, as most people already know and have so nicely pointed out, were not present during Creation. They were made in response to Discord and Chaos in the Symphony. A manifestation of God's Divine Wrath and is Eternal Punishment. Real Old Testament type stuff. Uriel, the Archangel of Purity was the first. His Purity infused the entire choir with the *mindset* of God's Wrath. He didn't change his mind, it was changed for him by God and by his Word. Purity couldn't have been a better concept to become the first Malakim. Stone is a good next choice. Their minds are set with a single goal. Make the Symphony Pure. Regardless of what Archangel they currently serve or what Oaths they have taken. Uriel's original Oath as I see it was "I will strive with my blood and soul to remove the Discord created by those who have rejected the Purity and Love of God." Given these premises, Malakim would not Fall, at all. There is no room for argument. As it says in the APG (I think) "Malakim enjoy the Hell out of their jobs." Their minds are focused and burnt with the overriding goal of Heaven and their Father. Make the Symphony Pure. It may not be an Oath, but a Seraph doesn't have to swear "I will never lie" for him to live by that Truth. As far as canon is concerned because I know that people are going to want SJ to confirm "is this Uriel's real first Oath" and "is it true that Angels think like this". Don't bother, SJ have given us all the fuel we need to create our own canon. If Uriel is not coming back for the Final Trumpet then the chances of him showing up to answer these questions is slim at best. In my campaigns Uriel has already come back in response to a Michaelite's joke on a Dominican. One event caused the Purity of Heaven to return. The wonders of In Nomine never cease, because sometimes a single horrific murder is more likely to create a Tether than a hundred Holocausts. Right, now for the Lucifer debate. Just how dumb do you think the Lightbringer is? He has lived through the creation of the Malakim and has seen what they are. God's Divine Wrath. His Balseraphic nature must attribute this to a plot by the Archangels to undermine his key thoughts about the Symphony. The creation of a Dark Malakim in my eyes would be like getting a large fish and whacking David and Laurence with it. It would create such an uproar that the Militant factions of Heaven would come down on all Infernal outposts with the force of a Divine Tsunami. Just you try and stop Laurence and David from personally destroying every abomination called "Dark Malakim". Lucifer knows this, and he is quite happy to let his Calabim do the fighting of Hell. He knows that even covertly creating such a creature would be an enormous task and given how fickle the loyalties of Hell are, he could not risk Heaven finding out. This is not to say that is cannot be done. He is the Son of the Morning Star, and quite powerful thank you very much. A new Band would be like clicking his fingers. A new band that is the *exact* infernal analogue of the Malakim however would take more power than he could ever muster. The Malakim were forged in God's Purity. The Dark Malakim would therefore *have* to be forged in Lucifer's Corruption. The kind of event that would cause an already existing Band member to become a Dark Malakim would have to be an uprising of selflessness and harmony in Hell almost like that of a mass Redemption. Then maybe a new Band would be formed. To me though, it is better to leave the Malakim where they stand. With an untarnished reputation. Remember, Max from FoTM didn't Fall and he had to put up with LA and Hell although some would say the two are synonymous. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 02:05:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> The Novalis Argument (Was the thread that would not die) On Mon, 31 Jul 2000, Charles Phipps wrote: > As someone pointed out the Hitler rule has been broken... > > (For those of you who don't know what the Hitler rule is-let me reiterate > from the Yves dictionary) Actually, its proper name is "Godwin's Law". Dunno who Godwin is, though... (Just a bit of trivia, there...) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is _the best_. -- Frank Zappa, "Packard Goose" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 02:31:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> What's up? On Mon, 31 Jul 2000, Rolland Therrien wrote: > >See, Eli's looking to Jump. Or at least go seriously outcast. > > Doubtful, IMO. Doubtful, of course! But a very dark, twisted, and FUN idea.... > That doesn't make any sense... God MADE the Earth. He made the Archangels, > who are all tied to the Earth in very real ways. So? God's ineffable, man. > Destroying the Earth > would litterally drive the entire Host insane, since their words would > become meaningless almost overnight. No it wouldn't. They existed without words for a long while, and they'd exist without 'em in the future... God would most likely just remove the words from 'em. Or they'd have to reinterpret them... > Considering the number of princes on Lucifer's side who advocate all out > extermination of mankind (Beleth, Baal, Belial, Saminga, etc...), I doubt > Lucifer wants to save the Earth. Even the Princes of Shal-Mari are mostly > interested in draining Humanity of every Forces they're worth. Angelic propaganda! They're not so bad, really.... (See, what I think you're missing here is that this campaign seed is a way to suddenly reveal to the players that you've been PLAYING IN NOMINE BACKWARDS without them knowing! One hell of a shock, sure, but players love being surprised.... honest....) > Creation is too strong a word for any one prince in Hell to have, without > the rest of Hell to look at him with envy and hatred. The destructive > Princes would see him as anathema to their Words, and the Takers would want > to steal his links to creation (Sex, art, food) for themselves. So was Fate. q.v. Kronos's writeup. Lots of hate and jealousy, but Lucifer's blessing, a few allies, and sheer POWER let him ensconce himself well into the heirarchy. Of *course* there'd be backstabbing... but that's just another casual day in hell. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "the toll to arrive within dumbassia's boundaries is steep, but one is free to leave at any time." -- kevbob ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1750 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.