From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Aug 2 09:48:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28697 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:48:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id JAA07673 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:46:50 -0500 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:46:50 -0500 Message-Id: <200008021446.JAA07673@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1752 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, August 2 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1752 In this digest: Re: IN> A Tether to Lust IN> New, Improved, Heretical Archangel! Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Colonel Maria Tzetke Re: IN> Artifact/McGuffin: The Redemption Gun Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Colonel Maria Tzetke Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Colonel Maria Tzetke Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Colonel Maria Tzetke IN> IN in NZ Re: IN> IN in NZ IN> Undead and Tethers Re: IN> IN in NZ Re: IN> IN in NZ IN> Michael vs Yves vs God Re: IN> IN in NZ Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God Re: IN> IN in NZ Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God IN> Super High Stats Re: IN> Super High Stats Re: IN> Super High Stats Re:IN> Novalis Thing Addendum (Re: IN Romance -- Opposites Attract) Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God Re: IN> Artifact/McGuffin: The Redemption Gun Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God IN> My Take of Yves Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Re: IN> Hi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 22:56:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> A Tether to Lust On Tue, 1 Aug 2000, Douglas Muir wrote: A very, VERY good writeup! I don't know if I'll end up using it, but it's been filed away in my 'in nomine saved messages' folder as a damn good seed/scenario. Only one correction for you... > Jimmy Mack, Hellsworn Soldier of Lust > > Corporeal Healing - 2 Corporeal Charm - 3 > Celestial Charm - 3 Soldiers can ONLY sing Corporeal songs unless they have the special "Ethereal Connection" or "Celestial Connection" attunements... and only a Superior can grant those, so they're very rare. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "When nothing's funny, it gets easy to laugh at the drop of a hat - or a bomb." -- Devo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 19:49:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> New, Improved, Heretical Archangel! I've added another Heretic to the stable. You'll find him, as usual, at: http://www.familyshoebox.com/family/Oops I just want to make one thing clear, here. Unlike some of my other stuff, there are absolutely, positively, beyond a shadow of a doubt, NO philosophical, intellectual or academic statements to be found here. For a change, I'm just being exclusively silly. The only practical use that this Redeemed has is to be printed out and "accidentally" left in a place where your players can see it, the next time you need to distract them from the major campaign twist that you're _really_ planning (or the next time that you're just feeling nostalgic for your old Paranoia campaign). Hope it helps. :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Yes, Really, It's Just Meant To Be Silly and Disconcerting. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 22:26:40 -0500 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Colonel Maria Tzetke At 09:51 AM 8/1/00 -0700, you wrote: >>> COLONEL MARIA TZETKE >>> aka ZADKIEL, ANGEL OF PROTECTION > >>Oh yeeeaaahhhh! >> >>I love Dark Victory. >> >>Keep it coming. >Hoo, yeah. Feed the Need. :) > Well, considering all the bad blood there's been recently, plus the discussion on Zadkiel being lame, inspired me to bring out this tidbit I'd originally prepared for the DV PBEM, which disintegrated due to player absences shortly into it. >Does one dare hope that a bit on the surviving >Ethereals will come down the pike soon? > Not -too- soon; I have my own writing chores in non-IN venues, sorry. Redneck Kris Overstreet, aka Redneck Gaijin publisher, White Lightning Prod. - www.wlpcomics.com I ***LOATHE*** Microsoft Outlook. Please get Eudora. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:40:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin P Meares Subject: Re: IN> Artifact/McGuffin: The Redemption Gun To be honest this thing strikes me as a ridiculously bad idea. Your basicly dropping into the PC's lap(because I guarantee you they will fina a way to get a hold of it) an instant kill device. For starters doesn't it occur to you that oh I don't know Lucifer or the Game(both of whom have spies in every organization in Hell) would have shown up very very quickly and confiscated the gun from Vapula in the first place. The reason Asmodeus would want it is fairly obvious(easy way to eliminate troublesome demons just keep a good hold on them so if they redeem you can finish the job on a weakened celestial). As to Lucifer there are probably millions of reasons the Prince of Darkness would want it if for no other reason than his evil sense of humor. Beyond that its a lot of power to put in any one's hands even an NPC. If you rolled very well you could wind up wiping out an entire party with out meaning to. Besides the redemption aspect of it throws the entire point of redemption out the window. Digging your way out of hell is an aspect for great role playing not a point and click type of thing. Heck do you really think Heaven would accept such a being it would sound a lot like some one with a high potential to yo yo. ===== http://the_master_2.tripod.com/mywebpage/ my home page(under construction) http://www.demonologyresearch.com the web site of the dvdr that I am a member of Love seeketh not Itself to please, Nor for itself hath any care; But for another gives its ease, And builds a Heaven in Hell's despair. William Blake The Clod and the Pebble __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 00:26:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Colonel Maria Tzetke On Tue, 1 Aug 2000, Kris Overstreet wrote: > Well, considering all the bad blood there's been recently, plus the > discussion on Zadkiel being lame, inspired me to bring out this tidbit I'd > originally prepared for the DV PBEM, which disintegrated due to player > absences shortly into it. Zadkiel's still lame, but this writeup was anything but. I'm coming to realize that even if I don't like her, she can still be VERY useful... ...see, if you don't like a Superior, then it's no big deal to mutate the hell out of him/her! Turn her into a near-remnant... cool. Make her fall... cool. Have Haagenti soul-kill her, sparking a new political movement in Heaven... cool. If I mind-wiped Novalis in my game, or made Gabriel fall in my game, or had Haagenti soul-kill Laurence in my game... that would change things way too much for my GMing comfort. But Zad's so marginal that it would be JUST enough of a shakeup to matter, but not enough to make my job harder. > Not -too- soon; I have my own writing chores in non-IN venues, sorry. Whenever you can, man. It's all very appreciated... I've got all the DV stuff so far printed out pretty and bound in a folder. I don't know when I'll get to run a DV game, but I *will*. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "People love to be told what to do. They love not doing what they've been told even more. They love it the most when they are made to do it anyway." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:17:59 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Colonel Maria Tzetke From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" > > Zadkiel's still lame, Not at all. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 01:09:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Colonel Maria Tzetke On Tue, 1 Aug 2000, Prodigal wrote: > From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" > > > > Zadkiel's still lame, > > Not at all. Is too. (NOTE: This ees a *joke* about how easily curt, small, "Nuh-uh" replies can turn into a cascade similar to the Monty Python 'Argument' sketch. Don't anyone actually start one... they're lame and a waste of bandwith.) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! Any resemblance between the above views and those of my employer, my terminal, or the view out my window are purely coincidental. Any resemblance between the above and my own views is non-deterministic. The question of the existence of views in the absence of anyone to hold them is left as an exercise for the reader. The question of the existence of the reader is left as an exercise for the 2nd god coefficient. A discussion of non-orthogonal, non-integral polytheism is beyond the scope of this message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 16:32:42 NZST From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: IN> IN in NZ Hey, This is a request for all people in NZ who play In Nomine to make yourselves known. There seem to be closet groups who just play within their circles of friends, I am guilty of this so I repent. We should at least be talking to each other. These US fellows have good ideas, but their terminology can be taxing at times. All hail the metric system! Reply to me personally so we can set some games up or something. Cheers. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 00:40:40 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> IN in NZ In a message dated 8/1/00 11:34:08 PM Central Daylight Time, val_arrin@hotmail.com writes: << We should at least be talking to each other. These US fellows have good ideas, but their terminology can be taxing at times. All hail the metric system! >> EVIL!! EVIL, I tell you! Oh, people will TRY to tell you that metric is better. That it is easier to learn and more standardized. But the dark path is ALWAYS easier! One must STRUGGLE to learn the ways of virtue!!! Metric is a Vapulan plot. I tell ya. Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 01:10:01 -0400 From: Tim Groth Subject: IN> Undead and Tethers Are undead still human enough to influence tethers? On a related note does commanding Soldiers to do things to cause a tether to form count as enough celestial interference to negate the help? Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 17:48:14 NZST From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> IN in NZ Oh you may think that Imperial is better - it certainly proved well for George Lucas.... but the Metric system has also its virtues, just look at Pulp Fiction. Us IN fellows in the South Pacific are just damn lucky that Yards and Meters are almost the same. Feet can be converted with a little variation. Obviously Vapula introduced the Metric system well before Jean could fully standardise it (yes we use "s" instead of "z" down here). Heaven is aware of the problem the US presents with their superior attitude towards all and sundry. You may prevail with your outmoded form of measurement for a while yet, but the powers of the Light shall introduce you to the wonders of Litres and Grams. For IN however, I am just confused as to Pounds - they just don't covert well into Kg, and as for Stone? David must be happy that his word is fully entrenched into your system of measurement! I still appeal to the NZ players! Come and band together! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 17:48:37 NZST From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> IN in NZ Oh you may think that Imperial is better - it certainly proved well for George Lucas.... but the Metric system has also its virtues, just look at Pulp Fiction. Us IN fellows in the South Pacific are just damn lucky that Yards and Meters are almost the same. Feet can be converted with a little variation. Obviously Vapula introduced the Metric system well before Jean could fully standardise it (yes we use "s" instead of "z" down here). Heaven is aware of the problem the US presents with their superior attitude towards all and sundry. You may prevail with your outmoded form of measurement for a while yet, but the powers of the Light shall introduce you to the wonders of Litres and Grams. For IN however, I am just confused as to Pounds - they just don't covert well into Kg, and as for Stone? David must be happy that his word is fully entrenched into your system of measurement! I still appeal to the NZ players! Come and band together! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 18:00:24 NZST From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God Just entertain this hypocrisy for a while. Michael and Yves don't see eye to eye. That much is certain, however one sided the hostility may be. Michael has thoughts about the information Yves is so secretive about and also about his involvement in the Gabriel issue. Yves is a manifestation of God. His Divine Will made "Angel" to really look at Himself and act without the presense of Metatron. Does Michael know this? Do any of the Archangels know this? For if they did, surely instead of talking with Yves and accepting his words based on respect they would bow down and accept regardless of what the words were. Michael especially, he obeys God, he knows the Truth of God and will follow him where he leads. Lucifer certainly knows that Kronos is the Infernal Yves, and is probably smart enough to figure out that Yves and Kronos might as well be the same thing. He must be laughing his Balseraph butt off at the irony of having Michael openly hostile towards the manifestation of God amidst all of Michael's holier-than-thou preeching towards Lucifer during The Fall. Does anyone have a resonable arguement to support Michael's standpoint? Or is he heading for the biggest Fall this side of the Rebellion. Does Kobal have anything to do with this at all? The Ultimate Joke would look good if it involved The First Angel and The First Soul.... surely not. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 06:16:05 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> IN in NZ > >Metric is a Vapulan plot. I tell ya. > Actually, yes -- but I didn't have room to slip that bit of explanation into the Vapula writeup :) Didn't get in the demonic tether to the room in Sevres where the 'standard kilogram' is kept either ;/ jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 02:18:21 EDT From: SdshowTim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God Well as I see it Michael obviously realizes Yves isn't a normal angel. But he doesn't know that Yves is a manifestation of God, and he would be livid about hearing that Kronos was as well. I'm sure that the Superior resonance cloaking keeps the Truth from comming to light. Lucifer, IMO, does know that Kronos/Yves are simular manifestation of God. Kronos is a sign that he's made a dent, that the Forces that comprise God are starting to pick up some of Lucifer's vibes. He probably really does think its funny that Michael isn't aware that he's hostile to God. However Michael's hostility is justified in some ways. Yves has a lot of power and knowledge and isn't using it to help the War end quicker. Michael's view probably isn't as clear as Yves, where he sees a harmful delay Yves sees a neccesary pause. Michael can't view reality the way Yves does, he doesn't have the ability to scroll through time or see a list of Destinies and Fates. Michael thinks that Yves has to be doing something wrong, at the very least, for Heaven to not be doing better. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 18:50:31 NZST From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> IN in NZ Actually, yes -- but I didn't have room to slip that bit of explanation into the Vapula writeup :) Oh this is conspiracy! There for such heresy the Inquisition has been contacted with all of your details. Jean is also looking into your backgrounds, with such an in depth knowledge of the supposed Demonic Nature of the Metric System your trials will be short and brutal. Vapula did bring the Metric system to the world.... earlier than Jean would have liked, he needed time to remove America as the dominant force in the worlds media. As long as you are prevailent in the minds of the movie watching public you will continue to have Metric minds thinking in Imperial terms. Oh you are sick, you really are. ;) Alex ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 19:05:37 NZST From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God Well it may be True that Michael can't see the world the way Yves does. It may also be True that Michael doesn't really know the true nature of Yves. However, it is common knowledge that Yves has God's ear. This known, Michael is STILL hostile to Yves. When Yves makes his necessary pause with all of his Divine knowledge and DIVINE knowledge, Michael can still see red at his lack of direct information dissemination. Lucifer MUST know about Yves and Kronos. Lucifer in essence (yeah) created Kronos. He helped to heal him and fed him all the selfishness that spawned the original Fall. Lucifer also knew Yves well before Kronos came along. Lucifer it seems had quite a cozy relationship with Yves and God (through Metatron). That knowledge would not be lost to him, maybe just a little bent. I still find it hard to imagine Michael, the greatest Angel in Heaven, distrusting the Word of God. He must be clearing himself of Dissonance quite regularly if that is the case. Keep in mind that Michael trusts himself to know The Truth about God and the Symphony. He is the quintessential individual. With such a blunt view on what is Right and Wrong - as Seraphim usually take, he is assuradly going to be on the slippery slope down to Hell. How long will it take before the meetings with Baal turn into a out and out slandering of Yves and his seemingly lax attitude towards The War. Baal rebelled for personal reasons of Valour and Glory. Michael stood aloof in the knowledge that God was on his side. He is now saying that God is on his side, but the one who talks to God and supposedly carries out his commands is a cowardly little bookworm who would rather look at pretty pictures than get his knuckles dirty. Michael will be harbouring not just a distrust of Yves, but distrust of his conversations with God. Michael obeys... but for how long. Remember that this is about Michael's opinions and his Seraphic nature conflicting with THE TRUTH about the nature of God and Yves. Balseraphim have been created for much less. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 03:06:36 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Super High Stats How does one exactly play/represent the super high stats that Celestials may possess? I mean it's fairly low on the totem pole the maximum human beings may possess in a skill yet many Celestials have above and beyond this level. What truly is "Unearthly" Intelligence, perception, precision, and will and how high/perfect is it in comparison. My seraphim for instance has a 12 Intelligence and an 8 Precision (An extra Ethereal force from Novalis for good thinking) how much of a genius is he? How precise? These are real questions here I believe that have never been (to my admittadly) limited knowledge of cannon answered. What are the limits of super stat Celestials? - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 20:42:45 NZST From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> Super High Stats What are the limits of super stat Celestials? The stats are provided as a Dice Rolling mechanic, like anything to represent anything where there is the element of chance. The upper limit for a PC celestial is 12, now that doesn't mean that he can pick up a book, speed read at 150 words per second, remember everything and apply that knowledge to the task at hand. However it represents the Potential to do so. There are Attuenments to represent Supernatural abilities. Vassal of Destiny for example, no matter what the Int score, he can remember and comprehend all written material. However it may be hard for him to apply to it a real life situation if his Int score is quite low. I take the stats that don't deal with direct influence on the corporeal or celestial realms, like Int and Per to be guildlines for what situations I can allow a Dice Check. An Angel with 6 Per walks into a room and makes a brief sweep for anything unusual, if there is a priceless object hidden underneath the bed and the only indication that it is there is the slight smell of incense coming from the bedroom, then a Human with Per 2 will in no way even get a roll to detect it, they simply don't have the intuition or whatever you care to call it. A celestial with Per 6 would however get a penalised roll, someone with Per 12 would probably notice it automatically because of his Supernatural Perception. Same with Int. Some situations require some lateral thinking that may be beyond the scope of the Player him/herself. That is where an Int check is applicable, with Int 2 no chance, Int 6 a normal roll, and with 10-12 there may be something the GM can say the the PC that will lead him in the right direction without the PC needing to make a roll. Superiors have scores much higher than the 12 ceiling and they are called ineffable or inscrutable because of such a HUGE mental capacity or Spiritual connection to the Symphony. Things like Str and Agi are no brainers. Str 12 means really what you make it. If you want your PC's to be able to tear wheel clamps off cars and hurl them close to the speed of sound at an opponent then so be it. Ditto Agi. Matrix style dodging of bullets is more than possible with an Agi of 12 in my eyes. I use a revision of the combat system however. I hope that can clear some things up. Alex ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 08:59:46 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Super High Stats > >My seraphim for instance has a 12 Intelligence and an 8 Precision (An extra >Ethereal force from Novalis for good thinking) how much of a genius is he? Put it this way: the highest Intelligence that a human can have is 10 -- and that includes Einstein/ Newton et. al. Your Seraph is a degree of magnitude more intelligent than that. As to how to play a PC who is brighter than you are so that it really does seem that clever ... there are some tricks to it :) Basically, you will need some help from your GM to pull it off convincingly. I'll try to expand when I have a bit more time, but this applies to pretty much any RPG where you are playing that type of character. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2000 10:13:11 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re:IN> Novalis Thing Addendum (Re: IN Romance -- Opposites Attract) On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:03:19 -0400 Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >Also note, re Michael, that he _still_ calls Dominic "hyena" -- it >won't break canon to have him be snarky about things. (Nor would it break >the other way. Heh.) i've always disliked this as seriously dissonant for Michael. being snarky and holding grudges makes loads of sense, but for a Seraph--and the Seraph of Seraphim at that!--to indulge in petty name-calling is not only hideously childish (which i might buy) but seriously dissonant, considering that Dominic and his Servitors are not literal hyenas, nor do they *actually* tear apart the weak, straggling members of a group for their own selfish aggrandizement. each time Michael and his Seraphim said such a thing, they'd be wracked with Dissonance, and Michael would open his eyes to the Truth of his error. and immediately order a cease on such behavior from his angels. now, remaining snarky towards the Dominicans would be perfectly fine, though.... -=|horsefly|=- "It was a different time: a time of blood and guns and killings.... It was a time when killers needed saints, for so much of God's good work was being done." --SAINT OF KILLERS #4, Garth Ennis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 06:50:25 -0400 From: "BDP" Subject: Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God >Remember that this is about Michael's opinions and his Seraphic nature >conflicting with THE TRUTH about the nature of God and Yves. Balseraphim >have been created for much less. OTOH, we are assuming that Yves is the *right* part of God made manifest. That ain't necessarily so. If Kronos is also a manifestation of God, then we know at least one renegade part of God is out there. And Yves may have been created so that God would have someone off of whom to bounce ideas, which implies that Yves doesn't know *everything*, just a Humongous Amount of Things. It's possible that Yves *is* part of God, but not the Part that is Truth. It is, rather, the part that is Choice. Choice being the ultimate moment of Goodness when you reach Two Possibly True Roads. Fate is no more or less true than Destiny. Fate simply is the decision for Badness. It boils down, in the end, to how close to God Yves really is, and what we assume that means. In short, the idea that Michael is headed for a Fall because he distrusts Yves plays on the idea that Yves is The One True Manifestation of God, and that Michael is an Archangel of Very Little Brain. :) Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 07:49:55 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Artifact/McGuffin: The Redemption Gun - --On Tuesday, August 1, 2000 6:09 PM -0700 David Rodemaker wrote: > >> It began as a project of Vapula's. He wanted to design a >> weapon to use against renegades that could soul kill a >> celestial even in a vessel, and could be used without generating >> any disturbance. It wasn't a major project, but every occasion he >> had some spare time he worked on it, and eventually he had >> something ready to try out. > > > Vaputech.... > > Great idea. > "Misapplying tomorrow's technologies...today!" Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("'Made in...' I can't read the rest, it's just a squiggly rune...") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 01:29:43 NZST From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God "In short, the idea that Michael is headed for a Fall because he distrusts Yves plays on the idea that Yves is The One True Manifestation of God, and that Michael is an Archangel of Very Little Brain." Yes, it would be unwise for us to discount that opinion. Yves may very well not be the "right" manifestation of God. However, God is eternal and omnipotent. A manifestation of God in ANY form is going to be all of these things. That is why he is Perfect, he cannot be anything else. It does say that Yves is not omnipotent, now does this mean that he is NOT really a manifestation of God and therefore Michael have every right to give him the flick without any serious consequences, or is he in fact God looking through the eyes of someone who doesn't know it all. As it has been said, perhaps just enough knowledge to keep him at Archangel level without going to overboard. Michael however is another kettle of fish. There is no dispute in the fact that he DOESN'T LIKE YVES. One bit, not even a little bit. He is WRONG about so many things, is the direct quote. Michael IS an Archangel of very little brain. He is keyed to winning the War, whatever a soldier needs he wants. Soldiers need the inside track, and Yves gives his little enigmatic smile and pussy foots around the subject like the quintessential teacher. Answers questions with questions and such. Michael already has demonstrated his lack of patience for such things. IF Yves is God (simplified manifestation) then Michael is going down. There is no way it can be otherwise. If a normal run of the mill Seraph tells a lie then he gets Dissonance and it hurts. When a Seraph Archangel has a universal Truth undone before his eyes, then he Falls..... or gets brought before Dominic which would be worse. Yves and Michael are THE Archangels in Heaven, if they don't get along then Malphas has already won. If Malphas knew what we in the gaming world know about God and Yves, his word would be absolute. A fracture between God and Michael. Kobal is still laughing at this behind their backs. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 10:02:15 -0400 From: "John J. Maurer, Esq." Subject: IN> My Take of Yves I have always wanted a more satisfactory answer to good old Yves/Michael myself. Sometimes it appears that this conflict was basically manufactured to make sure SOMEONE dislikes Yves. Here is my take. God is not the symphony. God is the Conductor. HUMANITY is the symphony. Therefore Yves !=God. Yves = The best that humanity can be. And the best that humanity can be ain't good enough for Michael. I'd be willing to bet that Michael would be happier with no free will. Everyone obeying the will of god and humming along in perfect harmony. Yves represents the "choice to do good" as viewed through the lens of humanity. Kronos represents the "choice to do evil" as viewed through the same lens. Yves is not always right, nor is he omnipotent. He has a unique perpsective on the best humans can be. He tries to guide people towards those based on an ineffable standard. Michael strives to make humans reject evil and struggle against the adversary. That is not always the best thing for Yves but it is the best for Michael. And God, being the master Conductor knows when we need more Oboes (yves) and when we need more Trombones (Michael) each one has its place. As far as the whole notion that God (and therefore Yves) is Omnipotent, that is ineffible. As far as whether any manifestation of God is omnipotent I direct you to the Aryan heresy. The whole notion of what Jesus (as a manifestation of God) was HIGHLY contested in the real world for some time and definately is not explained in IN. Speaks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:13:03 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God I've never liked the "Yves is a manifestation of God" concept in In Nomine, because it is the biggest, fattest break with Abrahamic theology in the game. And the game essentially IS roleplaying with the mythology of Abrahamic religion. Oh, yes, they introduce twists, and that's fine, but this is more than a twist -- it's a fracture. Now that I've vented that, though... The same place where they first say Yves is an aspect of God (the Angelic Player's Guide, I think) also says something like, "But then, so is everything, *really*." In short, it declares pantheism, and in the same breath undercuts Yves's special status. That is, Yves isn't the only one who's God. Michael is the most powerful seraph in mind, as well as body. It would be quite reasonable for him to know all about Yves and Kronos and reason thus: "Yves is an aspect of God. Very impressive. But so is Kronos. So am I, and so is Lucifer. So are rocks. There are two things that are different about Yves. One is that he doesn't have a choir; the other is that he is, I suppose, immediately *aware* of his aspect-nature. This makes him like a human mystic who has intuitively grasped his Union with the Infinite in a flash of mystical ecstasy. Only for Yves, it's not a flash, it's the way he is all the time. "That fact of union with God may well be the center of Yves's consciousness. But that wouldn't mean that Yves is omniscient or infallible. Yves has one great big fact straight -- the presence of God in all creatures -- but it doesn't follow he has everything else straight. So, when I see him making what look like strategic errors in disclosing information -- like with Gabriel vis a vis Christianity and Islam -- I have no reason to think those can't be real errors just because he's Yves. "Yves is One With God, and he can feel it, which is what makes him special. But everyone else is One With God, too, whether they feel it or not, including everyone who ever made a mistake." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 07:29:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Has anyone played around with a future, multi-world IN campaign? I'm planning to actually run some kind of IN campaign Real Soon Now, and I'm toying with the idea of doing something _odd_. Galactic empires sound about right. The only thing that concerns me with doing the above is that, with a corporeal population in the quadrillions, Word-bound might be _insanely_ powerful. Any suggestions? Moe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:34:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: > Has anyone played around with a future, multi-world IN > campaign? I'm planning to actually run some kind of > IN campaign Real Soon Now, and I'm toying with the > idea of doing something _odd_. Galactic empires sound > about right. Sounds cool. > The only thing that concerns me with doing the above > is that, with a corporeal population in the > quadrillions, Word-bound might be _insanely_ powerful. > > Any suggestions? Yeah. Assume that the Word-bound (except for Archangels and Demon Princes) are limited to a single world. Orc is the Angel of Earth's Networks, not the Angel of All Networks. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 07:46:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin P Meares Subject: Re: IN> Hi Actualy the fire aspects of Gaberiel are one of the few things I don't have a major issue with. I think its an interesting aspect to the Archangel and fitting to his personality(after all he is a messanger and the dispenser of God's wrath). Ok the basic outline i have thus far is this. I'm scrapping Dominic(I really don't like him hes obnoxious and a step above demons) entirely and Michael is basicly taking his place. The council is lead by the seven principle archangels(7 is a traditional number of God) Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, Urial and probably David, Jean, and Azrael. Michael is the leader of the army and the prince of the host in general. Yves will be kind of a Gandalf like advisor to the group not technicaly a part of it but they all respect him(including Michael). Michael is also absorbing a lot of Laurance's personality(nothing in the game irritates me more than the way its screwed up Michael). The other archangels basicly report to one of the seven. Players have to defer to an order from the which ever of the 7 there superior answers to and to any one given by Michael. There suposed to at least respect the others but as long as they don't blatently ignore them they stay out of trouble. I haven't begun work on the princes yet but among other things I think Lucifer is going to take a more active role as the boss. - --- Omentide wrote: > > >The main basic things I'm thinking about > >are brinking back Raphael and Uriel(some thing I'd really like help > >with) as superiors bringing and creating an over seeing organization > >with the four of them and 3 more as its heads and Michael the de > facto > >leader and prince of heaven. The trick also is picking the other 3 > >although Azrael would be another thought any suggestions? > > Cool. > > There are immense problems reconciling In Nomine with traditional > material. Personally I stopped worrying about it. I guess it's no > more > problem for me than the whole game is for people with more > 'conventional' > religious beliefs. IN Canon is never going to 'mesh' with any real > life > belief system and there are pretty good reasons why it shouldn't try > to do so. > > Ultimately it's a game and most people are going to adapt it to their > own > uses. That's what I've always taken published RPG material to be > FOR. Canon doesn't matter unless you want stuff to be published > 'officially' or, arguably, if you're demo-ing stuff under the SJ > banner. We've done a lot of work on Ethereal stuff (developing pagan > > entities in a non-canonical manner) which we're hoping to share with > people > at some point in time. > > To get back to the points you were making. One of the things that > seriously bugs me in Canon is Gabriel being associated with Fire. > That's > something I just have to live with when I'm running canon. The > canonical > absence of Uriel and Raphael also bugs me. You can't really bring > them > back without violating canon. But, like I said, canon isn't > something that > bugs me a great deal... > > Maybe you could substitute Aurial for Uriel (same concept, different > spelling). In which case, your big shots could be Michael, Raphael, > Gabriel, Auriel. That's nice and elemental (though you've still got > the > Gabriel=Fire connotations to deal with). Janus (canonical Wind) > could > substitute for Raphael, or be one of your three back ups. The > Earth-mother > aspect of Novalis (if I may be so bold as to mention Novalis on list) > could > also be used elementally. Jean (canonically lightening) is pretty > Airy, > which is another possibility. > > This feels somewhat disjointed. I'm throwing out ideas here. > However, if > you want to get back (on or off list) with a slightly more detailed > idea of > what you're trying to do, we might well be able to help. > > > > > Ashley and Hilary > omentide.omentide@virgin.net > http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide > ===== http://the_master_2.tripod.com/mywebpage/ my home page(under construction) http://www.demonologyresearch.com the web site of the dvdr that I am a member of Love seeketh not Itself to please, Nor for itself hath any care; But for another gives its ease, And builds a Heaven in Hell's despair. William Blake The Clod and the Pebble __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1752 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.