From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Aug 2 20:09:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA17945 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:09:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id UAA13499 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:07:51 -0500 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:07:51 -0500 Message-Id: <200008030107.UAA13499@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1753 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, August 2 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1753 In this digest: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Re: IN> Hi Re: IN> A Tether to Lust Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God Re: IN> My Take of Yves Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Re: IN> Fwd: Bifrons Kampflied engl version Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God Re: IN> Undead and Tethers Re: IN> Super High Stats Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony IN> Angelic/Corporeal Translation Woes Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Hear The Symphony Scream Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God Re: IN> Hi Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Hear The Symphony Scream IN> Thoughts on Malakite Oaths Re: IN> Undead and Tethers Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Colonel Maria Tzetke Fwd: Re: IN> Bifrons Kampflied engl version IN> Fwd: Michael and Yves and Kronos Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Colonel Maria Tzetke Re: IN> Hi Re: IN> Hi Re: IN> Super High Stats Re: IN> My Take of Yves Re:IN> Angelic/Corporeal Translation Woes IN> Tsayadim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:47:45 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Maurice Lane wrote: > Has anyone played around with a future, multi-world IN > campaign? I'm planning to actually run some kind of > IN campaign Real Soon Now, and I'm toying with the > idea of doing something _odd_. Galactic empires sound > about right. > > The only thing that concerns me with doing the above > is that, with a corporeal population in the > quadrillions, Word-bound might be _insanely_ powerful. > > Any suggestions? Two suggestions: First-- Use GURPS Lenman as a source. It's already space opera with a cosmic battle between good and evil. The Arisians and Edorreans can be whole races of Soldiers for Heaven and Hell respectively, or mass Roles for angels and devils. Even if you don't copy the worlds and races of Lensman, you can copy the concepts and themes. Second-- Split Superiors into two levels, cosmic and local. Cosmic Superiors are the more abstract or elemental ones -- Yves, Michael, Gabriel, Janus, David, Jean. Jordi and Novalis could go either way; they could be cosmic, or there could be analogs for them on any life-bearing planet. Cosmic Superiors tend to be decidedly more ineffable and (in that way) Yves-like, while local ones are more like great big Word-bound. This needn't make any difference to game mechanics; it just helps give a more wide-open feel to the cast, I think. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:57:15 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Hi Kevin P Meares wrote: > Actualy the fire aspects of Gaberiel are one of the few things I > don't have a major issue with. I think its an interesting aspect > to the Archangel and fitting to his personality(after all he is a > messanger and the dispenser of God's wrath). Ok the basic outline > i have thus far is this. I'm scrapping Dominic(I really don't > like him hes obnoxious and a step above demons) entirely and > Michael is basicly taking his place. The council is lead by the > seven principle archangels (7 is a traditional number of God) > Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, Urial and probably David, Jean, and > Azrael. Sounds like you are increasing the "brightness" and "contrast" of the game, to use the jargon developed on this list (and used in the GM's Guide) to describe variations on IN style. Also, you are apparently bringing the celestial hierarchy more into line with traditional Western angelology, like that of Dionysios the Areopagite. Other ideas you might consider are the Principalites (guardian angels of nations and ethnic groups) and a College of Saints (if you want to raise the profile of human souls in the game). I have always been interested in different players' variations on IN canon. Please continue to post. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:59:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A Tether to Lust Very well-written adventure seed. I found it a little more intriguing than I might, since my family lived in Champaign- Urbana for 20 years, and worked at the University. I always knew those frat houses were no damn' good... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 11:10:08 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony - --On Wednesday, August 2, 2000 7:29 AM -0700 Maurice Lane wrote: > The only thing that concerns me with doing the above > is that, with a corporeal population in the > quadrillions, Word-bound might be _insanely_ powerful. Sure, maybe. But spread thin over how many worlds and trillions of souls...? AAs are supremely powerful, but even they aren't God, and can't be everywhere at once. Not that this leaves the DPs potential 'blind spots' as the Host attempts to pick up the slack. Heck, you could lose whole planets that way... *innocent whistling* Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("One soul at a time suits me fine, thanks.") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 03:15:03 NZST From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God All good words from Earl, however it still doesn't address the issue with Michael and Yves and his distrust in him. In Nomine makes religion a nice bedside companion but SJ make damn sure they don't step on anyones toes. It is this that makes THEM the authority on Yves NOT the bible nor Abrahamic Theology. I am taking this from the games point, and from what has been written in the extensive literature on the nature of Yves and Michael's inherant distrust. Toy with the possibility of Michael realising who he has been so wary of for the last 1000 or so years and what happens then? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 03:23:42 NZST From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> My Take of Yves Again, good stuff. I want to keep this within the scope of what is available in IN terms. Jesus was the son of God? Even SJ don't answer that one. I agree with you that Humanity plays a HUGE part in the Symphony with God as the maestro. Michael doesn't distrust the bright destiny of Humanity though. He is concerned with the patron of destiny. Michael has two views much like Dominic. There is the way to win the war, and the way to lose the war. He considers himself the best person to fight, but not the best person to lead. This shows that he at least knows when to step aside and let the planning be done by someone who is a litte less bloodthirsty. Yves however, in what ever form you put him in - Is in some way a bigger part of the Symphony (read God) than ANY other Angel/Soul. Michael distrusts THE SYMPHONY in the form of Yves, because the way to win the war is to share resources, and the way to lose is to keep things secretive. Read the adventure in Liber Reliquarium. That sums it up entirely. Michael has a beef. How long will it take before that beef becomes something akin to BSE? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 10:24:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Matt Walsh Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: > Has anyone played around with a future, multi-world IN > campaign? I'm planning to actually run some kind of > IN campaign Real Soon Now, and I'm toying with the > idea of doing something _odd_. Galactic empires sound > about right. Doesn't the GMG mention some INS/MV supplement detailing a space-opera setting? Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:35:01 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: Bifrons Kampflied engl version Omentide wrote: > Was it in INS/MV? Does anyone know? Just out of interest and because I> find the concept of something translated from French to German to English> somewhat amusing. Actually, IIRC, the German edition of INS/MV is not a straight translation of the French version into German, but an adaptation, much like the SJG version, though I believe it's much closer to the original than ours is. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 11:29:20 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God Alex Liddell wrote: > All good words from Earl, however it still doesn't address the > issue with Michael and Yves and his distrust in him. My complaints about SJG's handling of theology are, indeed, not relevant. I was just using the occasion to vent. But I thought it *was* relevant to take that theology and show how Michael could know all about it and still not trust Yves. Being One With God, and knowing and feeling it, might make you the best theologian in Heaven, but it might not qualify you to be the War's chief of intelligance operations. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:44:46 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Undead and Tethers Tim Groth wrote: > > Are undead still human enough to influence tethers? I don't think canon says, but I'd say no, since they are only held together by infernal Forces, and thus are effectively a result of celestial intervention themselves. Although I could see arguments to the contrary. Zombis have no souls, so they certainly couldn't influence a Tether. OTOH, their actions shouldn't disturb one either. > On a related note does commanding Soldiers to do things to cause a tether> to form count as enough celestial interference to negate the help? _Probably_ not, but I'd say no Superior can be sure of that, so actions humans take without any celestial prompting at all are probably considered more valuable. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:51:09 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Super High Stats Jo Hart wrote: > Put it this way: the highest Intelligence that a human can have is 10 -- and > that includes Einstein/ Newton et. al. Your Seraph is a degree of magnitude > more intelligent than that. Not necessarily. Remember that Intelligence represents speed as well as quality of thought -- RAM rather than processing power, if you will. As in many game systems, it's quite possible to represent someone like Einstein without giving him a stratospheric Int score, and while a celestial with an Intelligence of 12 can certainly think *faster* and recall details better than any mortal, it doesn't mean he's ultimately smarter than Einstein or Newton, or capable of the same mental feats. Real-world "intelligence" works much the same way, once you get to a certain point. There's nothing that a person with an IQ of 180 can comprehend that's beyond the range of a person with an IQ of 120...it'll just take the IQ 120 longer to grasp it. (This is a broad generalization, of course, since equating IQ with intelligence is another problematic notion.) There's a bit about relating Intelligence to "intelligence" in the EPG, if it ever sees the light of day. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 13:20:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: > The only thing that concerns me with doing the above > is that, with a corporeal population in the > quadrillions, Word-bound might be _insanely_ powerful. Nah. The strength of a Word can be summed up by the following question: "How important is this Word, compared to all others, to Humanity?" In other words, it's a RELATIVE thing. So in your future game, I'm sure the celestials of Space Travel and Rocketships are going to get quite a boost, and the Angel of Colonization will finally get a few more Word-Forces... but Shadows are still Shadows, Networks are still Networks (though Orc'll be quite busy I'm sure), and even Flowers are still Flowers. In fact, if the humans decide NOT to bring flowers with them, and colonize dead worlds with nothing but oxygen-producing algaes and such, Novalis may find her power diminishing... But in no way does "More Humans" equal "More Word Power". - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! When you're having a bad day, remember: It takes 42 muscles to frown, but only 4 to pull the trigger of a decent sniper rifle. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:52:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Angelic/Corporeal Translation Woes Date: 2 Aug 2000 10:13:11 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re:IN> Novalis Thing Addendum (Re: IN Romance - -- Opposites Attract) On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:03:19 -0400 Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>Also note, re Michael, that he _still_ calls >>Dominic "hyena" -- it won't break canon to have him >>be snarky about things. (Nor would it break the >>other way. Heh.) > i've always disliked this as seriously >dissonant for Michael. being snarky and holding >grudges makes loads of sense, but for a Seraph--and >the Seraph of Seraphim at that!--to indulge in petty >name-calling is not only hideously childish (which i >might buy) but seriously dissonant, considering that >Dominic and his Servitors are not literal hyenas, nor >do they *actually* tear apart the weak, straggling >members of a group for their own selfish >aggrandizement. Well, Michael's doesn't _actually_ call Dominic a yena. It's just that the actual Angelic insult is so hard to translate into English, and the final draft really needed to get to the printers, and it was close enough in connotations for speakers of English to get the idea, and well, you know how it is. ;) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of It Would Have Been A Page And A Half Long, Anyway. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 12:53:14 -0700 From: Rolland Therrien Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony - -----Original Message----- From: Matt Walsh To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 8:32 AM Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony >On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: >> Has anyone played around with a future, multi-world IN >> campaign? I'm planning to actually run some kind of >> IN campaign Real Soon Now, and I'm toying with the >> idea of doing something _odd_. Galactic empires sound >> about right. > >Doesn't the GMG mention some INS/MV supplement detailing a space-opera >setting? Yeah, it was called "Stellar Inquisition". Basically, it's the year 4000 after Christ, and the war between Heaven and Hell has extended to the stars. Armageddon occured, and the Earth is now a glassy orb, with the city of "New Jerusalem" being the only source of life. And that was considered a victory for Heaven, since the old world had been corrupted by the Demons. So now, after centuries of space colonisation, the Cosmos is divided in a war between the Angelic forces of Heaven Space, which seems like a cross between 1984's world and the Vatican, and the Demonic forces of Hell Space, a cosmic empire divided up amongst the various Demon Princes, who shape the worlds in their control according to their own tastes. Baal's worlds are constantly in conflict, Asmodeus (French, non-inquisition version's ) worlds are all like Las Vegas, and Andrealphus' worlds are all popular vacation spots for the lustful. Space colonisation is possible for the Celestials and their human agents (Everything's more open now) through two kinds of drive, which use short cuts through Heaven and Hell to cross the gulfs through space. Heaven's drives are powered by the constant prayers of pure children, raised in sensory deprivation (and thus knowing no sin), while Hell's use the pain of burning souls. The standard way Stellar Inquistion is made up, it's hard to tell the good guys from the bad, even when all sides are compared. Hell's worlds are sometimes more painful to live on, but everyone has the freedom to do what one wants to do; as long as you don't piss off the more powerful people. Meanwhile, in Heaven, everything is homogenised, and everyone has to be a faithful, obedient little christian, obeying the will of the Superiors and the new Pope's council. In other words, a religious fundamental's dream. Propaganda even has you pray to god before using any form of technology (even a little "Please light this room, God" before turning on a light switch), which promotes obscurantism and ignorance. I was never really pleased with the "standard" world of Stellar Inquisition myself. Feel free to make up your own "In Nomine in Space" world. - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 12:18:27 -0500 (CDT) From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony I've been thinking about this on my own for some time, but I haven't really codified anything yet. On the other hand (), Phil Moyer has: his In Nomine 2070 can be found at http://www.jurai.net/~pmoyer/IN2070, and it's got some interesting ideas about integrating IN and science fiction.() - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 10:22:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Guy Royse Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Hear The Symphony Scream One thing that occurs to me in a space based In Nomine campaign that could be a problem is Essence regeneration. When does it happen? Which dawn? What if days are longer or shorter on other planets or the planet is tidally locked and so never had a sunrise? I know this is kinda twinkish, but it really is an important factor. Perhaps there is no Essence regeneration on a daily basis and all Essence is generated by Rites. This would certainly be a simple solution to the problem. You would probably want to add extra Rites for PCs if this were the case. Or maybe not. Perhaps starving the PCs a little bit could be fun. In fact, starving the PCs a bit in a conventional campaign this way could be fun as well. It could make them think about their Word a bit more. Another thing to keep in mind is your tech level (to use a GURPS term). If your tech level allows very rapid space travel (a few hours to most destinatoins) then the world isn't much different than today. Planets replace cities and spaceships replace airplanes. However, if space travel is much slower (say days, weeks, or even months) then Tethers take on a bigger importance then just being embodiments of a Word and an event. They become celestial highways and knocking out significant tethers becomes and effective way of cutting enemy supply lines. I think the idea of doing space based In Nomine is great. Keep us posted on what your doing. I know that I am certainly interested. Do you have any thoughts on extra-terrestials and perhaps their effects on the Marches? Or the Far Marches? Guy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 13:21:50 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: > In fact, if humans decide NOT to bring flowers with them, and > colonize dead worlds with nothing but oxygen-producing algaes > and such, Novalis may find her power diminishing... But algae also fall under her Word. At least, she was put in charge of the first microorganisms on Earth, according to the GMG. If her Word covers all Earth-descended plantlife, then algae farms in space would just expand her influence. If her Word covers all plantlike life everywhere in the cosmos, nothing humans do is likely to affect it at all, cosmically, though we might have local effects. (In fact, that's another way to look at Words in an INSpace game -- varying in power and quality on a planet-by-planet basis. Janus is very big on Jupiter, Gabriel in any star...) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 12:45:04 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God During all the discussion of whether Michael was causing himself dissonance by mistrusting Yves, I flashed back to the discussions about making Eve either an Archangel or Demon Prince. Then it occurred to me: Yves is the namer of things, just like Adam. What if they are one and the same? Discuss. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 18:49:43 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God >Yes, it would be unwise for us to discount that opinion. Yves may very >well not be the "right" manifestation of God. However, God is eternal and >omnipotent. A manifestation of God in ANY form is going to be all of >these things. That is why he is Perfect, he cannot be anything else. Equally and (I think) equally canonically, one might argue that everything (i.e. The Symphony) is a manifestation of God. Yves is, I would agree, a bit 'special'. So, when you come to think of it, was/is Lucifer. I'd tend to include all the celestials who were actually there when God said Fiat Lux (and remember the nature of the Lightbringer). Which, in In Nomine terms includes David as well as Michael. So what makes Yves especially special? Well, you can do the Yves/Kronos=God trick. Vaguely but not absolutely canonical. Taking a Qabalistic correlate (sorry), God is Kether, Yves is Chokmah. That's the way I tend to think of it and, whilst it's not mentioned in canon, I can't see anything uncanonical about it. Feel free to disagree... In ordinary English, that means Yves is not equivalent to God, but Yves is that early manifestation of the Godhead which names itself, God and everything that follows from it. Yves is the reflection of God. As such, Michael is entitled to feel that Yves is not a perfect reflection. God, indeed, is something which cannot be perfectly reflected. As a Seraph, Michael would be inordinately offended by an 'imperfect' reflection of God. As a Seraph he would see that imperfection as a flaw, rather than an inevitability. Really, you only get a problem if you assume that Yves is God. I reckon that assumption is a justifiable interpretation of canon (which might make Michael's position difficult to accept), but I don't think it's the only justifiable interpretation. Oh, and what Earl said. Hilary ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 18:59:31 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Hi >Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, Urial and probably David, Jean, and Azrael. No problems with 7, but what happens to water? I was thinking about this after I posted last night and there's nothing in the game that corresponds to the element of Water the way Gabriel traditionally does. That's not water as in dihydrogen oxide or whatever it's called but water as one of the four elements. Yes, one of the problems (for me) with Gabriel being fire is that Michael isn't. I'm used to working with Archangels corresponding to earth/air/fire/water and the four cardinal points of the compass. One of the big things about 7 (for me) is that it's the number of planets known to the ancient world. I'd have to spend quite a long while fitting the In Nomine Archangels into that particular pattern - probably end up with too much of a distortion. Lucifer is >going to take a more active role as the boss. Like Earl said, this sounds pretty high contrast stuff to me. I'm a seriously low contrast person. I guess I would be most useful here if I ducked out of this conversation. Hilary Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 14:22:05 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God Prodigal wrote: > Then it occurred to me: Yves is the namer of things, just like > Adam. What if they are one and the same? Discuss. Difficult to reconcile with canon chronology, since Yves is there at the Beginning and Adam comes long 15 billion years later. Of course, it could be got around. Adam might be an aspect of Yves, just as Yves is an aspect of God. Adam might be a Role Yves took, covering up his absence in Heaven by some collusion from God, or time-travel, or multiple manifestation. In any case, it means the whole Fall was not what it seemed, and the same for the Eden setup generally. It strongly suggests both Heaven and Hell are sets of pawns in some Illuminesque plot of Higher Heaven or God or somesuch. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 19:28:11 +0100 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony _Stella Inquisitoris_, set thousands of years in the future, with a angelic-assisted empire on one side and a demon-run empire on the other side. It's even darker and more satirical than the ordinary INS/MV. There were a couple of supplements, but that was all. I suspect the line just didn't "take". (The ordinary INS/MV is still going strong, though, I'm glad to say.) I love the ideas about how the Princes run their own solar systems, though. Mmmmmm. Genevieve - -----Original Message----- From: Matt Walsh To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 02 August 2000 16:25 Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony >On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: >> Has anyone played around with a future, multi-world IN >> campaign? I'm planning to actually run some kind of >> IN campaign Real Soon Now, and I'm toying with the >> idea of doing something _odd_. Galactic empires sound >> about right. > >Doesn't the GMG mention some INS/MV supplement detailing a space-opera >setting? > Matt > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 15:38:37 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Hear The Symphony Scream In a message dated 8/2/00 12:23:26 PM Central Daylight Time, groyse@yahoo.com writes: << One thing that occurs to me in a space based In Nomine campaign that could be a problem is Essence regeneration. When does it happen? Which dawn? What if days are longer or shorter on other planets or the planet is tidally locked and so never had a sunrise? I know this is kinda twinkish, but it really is an important factor. >> I had read the Essence regeneration always happens every 24 hours, and that the sunrise/sunset thing was purely symbolic. Which meant that you still got Essence even in Heaven and Hell, in the Marches, The Center of the Earth, and presumably Outer Space. Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 15:34:03 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Thoughts on Malakite Oaths Okay I had In Nomine on the brain last night while I was going to sleep and my thoughts wandered to the Malakite oaths...let me share some thoughts with you. 1:) Suffer not an Evil to Live when it is my choice Obviously this seems to imply that if it weren't for Michael, God, Yves and the other superiors then the Malakites would be descending on the Ethereal marches slaughtering every nasty Ethereal before moving onto Earth for every drug dealer, rapist, thief, and adulterer before finally culminating on the big attack in Hell......(okay maybe causalty figures stay them in hopes of slaying MORE evil). However examing this oath I note that it is "suffer not an *evil*" to live and I was curious if this might not make the Malakites the best redeemers in Hell as they work to undo the base that causes evil moreso than life (the issues). Of course it's much easier to bust heads....but probably less effective in the long run. Another idea is does this oath apply to oneself? If a Malakim finds something evil in himself does that mean he must remove it from himself (Sloth, Greed, Pride, Wrath-if it's theres and not gods, Lust, Envy, Gluttony) thus perhaps explaining why they don't Fall? 2:) Never surrender to Hell Okay obvious this says "Do not let yourself be captured by demons" however this might also be a metaphorical for "Never surrender to despair or give up when the cause/effect will be evil.". Roughly this oath might mean that whenever a Malakim is losing faith in heaven, ultimate victory, and his choir resonance (the common causes of Falling in my mind) this oath causes them to take heart and rise to the occasion that it is for the best. Your thoughts? - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 16:13:40 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Undead and Tethers At 1:10 AM -0400 8/2/00, Tim Groth wrote: >Are undead still human enough to influence tethers? I'm strongly inclined to say, "Fnord." As a GM, I would hint this to my PCs, and never tell them yea or nay, but proceed according to whatever the plot required. >On a related note does commanding Soldiers to do things to cause a tether >to form count as enough celestial interference to negate the help? I think this is implied, yes. Generally. Tethers are ineffable, and it's always possible that a human's actions will be enough, despite or because of celestial interference. Beware _which_ Word an "interference" Tether forms to, though... (Saminga just _hates_ it when a spree of undead serial killings sends a Tether up to Michael or Zadkiel for the bravery of someone defending against their killer...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 16:18:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Colonel Maria Tzetke At 10:26 PM -0500 8/1/00, Kris Overstreet wrote: >plus the >discussion on Zadkiel being lame, inspired me to bring out this tidbit I'd >originally prepared for the DV PBEM, which disintegrated due to player >absences shortly into it. And darn it all, too. They were putting the _experienced_ Malakite in charge, IIRC. The one who fledged, like, a _few_ months ago, instead of the one who was created about a month ago and was on Earth for the first time... O:> (Hey, we got the _first_ mission done before the PBEM died.) Fun game. Are the logs still online? - --Beth, typing w/a baby (iolanthe) on her chest. Vapitalizatoin & spelling difficult, typing w/1 hand & supporting baby w/other. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 16:19:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> Bifrons Kampflied engl version >From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 15:07:11 -0500 >To: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Admin request of type /\b u n s\w*b/i at line 9 >From: "Prodigal" >Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: Bifrons Kampflied engl version >Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 15:07:08 -0500 > >I ran the verses through a translator, and here's what I got: > >"Combat song of Bifrons, D"monenprinz of the dead ones: The war dogs prepare >to the fight at this black Sabbat, this M"nner made of iron and steel >pulling out t-to ten all living person They break from the crypts of death, >you out come, in order to slaughter to murders and. They, which servants of >the gentleman dark-eat, you are the putting ions the h-lle. The wild s-hne >of the dark ruler recken their weapons towards sky this is the putting ions >of the Satans the u n s terblichen krieger." > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 16:21:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fwd: Michael and Yves and Kronos >From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 15:02:07 -0500 >To: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from ["Glenn Brown" ] >From: "Glenn Brown" >Subject: Michael and Yves and Kronos >Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 13:13:56 -0700 > >Despite the fact that maybe Michael, 'the Seraph of Seraphim', should >understand Yves' nature, I don't think Michael does understand Yves. Look at >what it says in Superiors 1, page 112, regarding Michael's view of Kronos. >"I don't pretend to understand him any more than I do Yves. He's as >incomprehensible and as mystical. But I do know that he is evil. My fight is >to bring the universe to what God wants, not to let it fall to some Fate." > It sounds to me as if Michael would be utterly shocked to learn that both >Yves and Kronos are manifestations of God. >Yves and Kronos interest me, because they are the characters in In Nomine >who most drastically diverge from real world religions. Kronos in particular >is really different. There is just no place in Judaism or Christianity or >Islam for a manifestation of God who is fighting on the side of demons. >Kronos does seem to fit a little better into a Zoroastrian world view, since >Ahriman was more than just a rebellious fallen angel. >How do you think both Heaven and Hell would react if they knew about Yves >and Kronos' true natures? Some Demons might wonder, if Kronos is really just >a part of God, then are the Demons who serve Kronos really rebelling against >God? Maybe the Habbalah have been more right than anyone realized! If God is >fighting on both sides, then haven't both angels and demons totally >misunderstood what the War is all about? >No wonder God's victory is assured. If the Symphony achieves its Destiny, >then Yves, (God) wins. If the Symphony falls to its Fate, then >Kronos, (God) wins. >What if God is omnipotent, but indecisive? The War will continue until He >decides which side (of Himself) he wants to win. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 15:12:26 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Colonel Maria Tzetke From: "Elizabeth McCoy" > > Fun game. Are the logs still online? I wish I coulda joined... :( ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 15:36:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin P Meares Subject: Re: IN> Hi Actually yeah thats exactly what I'm trying to do. I will happily continue to post at least in part because I'd like suggestions and advice to advance the ideas along. ===== http://the_master_2.tripod.com/mywebpage/ my home page(under construction) http://www.demonologyresearch.com the web site of the dvdr that I am a member of Love seeketh not Itself to please, Nor for itself hath any care; But for another gives its ease, And builds a Heaven in Hell's despair. William Blake The Clod and the Pebble __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 15:38:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin P Meares Subject: Re: IN> Hi I've seen the idea of the 4 principle archs relating to directions and elements before. See Silver Ravenwolf's Angel's Companions in Magick for details on one way. ===== http://the_master_2.tripod.com/mywebpage/ my home page(under construction) http://www.demonologyresearch.com the web site of the dvdr that I am a member of Love seeketh not Itself to please, Nor for itself hath any care; But for another gives its ease, And builds a Heaven in Hell's despair. William Blake The Clod and the Pebble __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 15:53:29 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> Super High Stats David Edelstein wrote: > Jo Hart wrote: > > Put it this way: the highest Intelligence that a human can have is 10 -- and > > that includes Einstein/ Newton et. al. Your Seraph is a degree of magnitude > > more intelligent than that. > > Not necessarily. Remember that Intelligence represents speed as well as > quality of thought -- RAM rather than processing power, if you will. A third (probably less canonical, but who knows? It may be a bit easier to roleplay anyways) take might be to equate high intelligence scores with enourmous breadth of experience. An Angel with 12 Intelligence is undoutedly very smart, but might have approximately human intelligence combined with ten thousand (or however many) years of practical experience, leading to the impression of a superior hyperintelligent trans-Einstein being. (this thought was brought to you by a throwaway line from good omens to the extent that Azirphale wasn't any smarter than your basic human, but had the advantage of thousands upon thousands of years of experience) Cheers, Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 19:02:51 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> My Take of Yves At 3:23 AM +0000 8/3/00, Alex Liddell wrote: >Read the adventure in Liber Reliquarium. [...] Oh, gods, no, don't read it... It's waaaaaay... weird. Messed up. I still don't recall seeing it before it was in print. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2000 23:02:03 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re:IN> Angelic/Corporeal Translation Woes On Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Maurice Lane responded to my writings thusly: >Well, Michael's doesn't _actually_ call Dominic a >hyena. It's just that the actual Angelic insult is so >hard to translate into English, and the final draft >really needed to get to the printers, and it was close >enough in connotations for speakers of English to get >the idea, and well, you know how it is. i appreciate your trying to rationalize this, but to my mind, it doesn't wash. first, Dominic and his Servitors are not literal hyenas, and second, they don't *do* what hyenas do, so a metaphorical connection doesn't exist, either. >Morgan (FAW) >Kyriotate of Destiny >Petitioner for the Word of It Would Have Been A Page >And A Half Long, Anyway. heh, maybe. and of course, i may be missing something. -=|horsefly|=- God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:59:48 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Tsayadim A more sympathetic look perhaps at Uriel's frequently maligned angels.... The Tsayadim's History Uriel's servitors are and were the most flawless in Heaven in terms of fighting the war against Hell because they never once faltered against the forces of darkness or fell. While one wing was usually dipped in blood their voices were always raised in praising of the Lord for his goodness and bounty, and they were more than any concerned with the return of their brothers to the Purity that was the Host. However when Uriel decided that the Ethereal menace had become too great to be dealt with passive resistance such as monotheism he took the fight directly to the Marches and made war against the pagan and false gods created by humanity's fears, terrors, and insecurites. Slaughtering the enemies of the Host Uriel was soon (a mere thirty years) recalled back to Heaven to face trial by his oldest friend and compatriot Dominic for attempting rid the world of it's mental anguish. God recalled Uriel to Higher Heavens before the Trial could begin and installed Laurence as commander of the host with most of the servitors of the archangel of Purity going forth under their brother who had been annoited by God to make war on demons or joining with their other brother Khalid to aid their friends on the Earth in growing in knowledge. A small number though made note of the fact that Uriel was not Raphael, he was not dead and he had not called an end to the Crusade. Only he or God could. Calling themselves the Tsayadim (Greek for Hunters) they returned to the Marches in secret and continued their battles....never resting until they were victorious. The Tsayadim Today The Tsayadim today are much like Heaven imagines them, a secret "cult" (they take great offense at this word believing it indicates they worship Uriel instead of God) dedicated to continuing the War on Ethereals technically over the forces of Hell. They operate much like a group of soldiers living off the land in Enemy territory (which they are) with some differences. Having no need of sleep, food, or even rest the closest they come too is holding services on the Sabbath day and prayer during the mornings (they keep track of the day in the somewhat bizzare marches by the supply of essence they recieve) and staying in encampments for planning sessions and logistics. Never staying in one area more than necessary to avoid bringing the wrath of Beleth or the pantheons they work to annhilate down upon their heads without undo preparation (more than once they have set a trap relying on their opponent's hatred of them). All the Tsayadim are amazingly skilled warriors due the fact that they are all in all fighters who have been in constant battle for more than one thousand years. The average Tsaydim indeed can battle the strongest of Baal's captains to a standstill and will likely destroy him with enough time. As heaven suspects the Tsaydim are primarilly Malakim but because none of Uriel's servitors can fall they have a surprising number of Seraphim, Elohim, Olfalim, Cherubim, and even Mercurians among them (though the numbers grow drastically smaller with each group on that list). Because of the Tsayadim's reputation the Hunters are rarely able to replenish their numbers and would not do so because of their beliefs of heaven personally. However on occasion they have and it would shock heaven dearly their method (see below). Despite Laurence, Khalid, Michael, and even Blandine (in momment's pleading) a distinctly large number of Word-bound exist among the Tsaydim as well. While few of these words deal with Corporeality (Purity being an Ethereal and Celestial word by itself) they are often surprisingly strong. Perhaps though not so surprising because only the devotion of a word might explain some of the single minded strength Tsaydim have in their hope of ultimate victory. Well armed the Tsaydim for the most part use the same swords and armor (well kept of course) that they've been using for the past milleneia. However necessity breeds compliance (within VERY STRICT reason) among the Tsaydim and when they recover Ethereal artifacts or Celestials (usually those among fallen angels or booty from such) they have no qualms about taking it for themselves to use against their foes. Unholy anything of course is destroyed immediately as well as anything tied to a pagan concept. Important Hunter Beliefs On Uriel As one might imagine the Tsaydim are not condemning of their Sheperd (they never refer to him as Lord) and consider Uriel the angel who realized that because purity of SPIRIT not victory mattered was allowed back into the Higher Heavens by God. Roughly this means that because Uriel cared enough to try and treat humanity's illness instead of destroying the demons (who were the cause were not the suffering) the Most High blessed him. It is every Tsaydim's hope to emanuate their prophet someday. On Heaven's Host While one might expect some grumbling (and ohhhh there is grumbling) the Tsaydim for the most part do not consider Heaven a traitor to their Sheperd or Lord. They realize that God has a plan for all creation and while their work is very important they realize it does not encompass all of the symphony (after all the angels in Heaven are angels and not demons). They despise it when they here one of the host speaks ill of Uriel or the Crusade because it is in their mind "misplaced sympathy" born of good feelings but applied to the wrong people. The average Tsaydim would risk his soul again and again for an angel of the Lord. On Hell's Forces The Tsaydim view the Ethereal forces as a larger threat than Hell this does not however mean that they have any sympathy for the forces of Darkness and personally are gut sickened by any angel that would consider work with them on ANY occasion. A demon which walks into their land meets death painlessly and without torment (admittadly unless they need information). Ironically though a demon who displays a desire for redemption will be offered it under the burning circle (see below) though it is a strictly "ask and ye shall recieve, don't and expect no quarter" policy. On the Ethereals The Tsaydim average response to the mention of Ethereals is to go to confession for the tirade of bad lanquage that they release on them. The Tsaydim's opinion on Ethereals is a bit unique in that they consider the dream beings a manifestation of humanity's flaws. When a "good" ethereal is created it is because humanity cannot see such ideas in their fellow man or in God. When a bad ethereal is created it is seen as a manifestation of humanity embracing despair and darkness. In either case all ethereal beings are tempters away from God and at the very best unhealthy signs of humanity's sickness. The average Tsaydim has a literally "AWESOME" knowledge of the various Ethereals and can quote what a number of Heaven's host seem to forget about them (Zeus and Apollo were rapists, Poseidon the source of shipwrecks, unicorns were butchers along with dragons, and every other concievable sin of the pagan beings)... On Humanity Can their be any doubt that humanity is our chosen charges, God's beloved children? It was as a human that God manifested (Tsaydim being almost exclusively Roman Catholic Christians) and it is for humans that we fight this war-for otherwise the demons could rot in Hell where they belong. The Tsayadim believe humanity is innately perfect and their current difficulties are the result of Hell affecting the Marches which perpetually soils humanity's connection the symphony with their evil. Dreamshades are considered deluded but a Tsaydim will weepingly destroy those they encounter the same as with Hellsworn those whom they cannot convince to go Heaven. On the Archangels Needless to say David, Laurence, Gabrielle and Khalid are considered very righteous and highly by the Tsaydim though Laurence is a divided opinion-most accept that God made him Uriel's successor for a reason....he was wrong to stop support of the Crusade. Michael is considered very risquey with his associations and vainglorious, the same with Dominic. Novalis, Eli, and Blandine are all bleeding hearts who by their lack of vision hurts those they try to protect (I'm alright, your alright is dangerous). Jordi, Jean, and Marc they consider following properly their words and don't give them much thought. They are truthfully very critical beings but a thousand years without support on occasion does that. Both Khalid and Laurence though have recieved enough support from their servitors in the marches that they're reconsidering their work and rumors of them occasionally "restocking" the Tsaydim may have some basis in fact. On Dissonance: The Tsaydim deeply hate this and actually manage to find a way to blame the Marches for this (demons corrupting the marches corrupting humanity corrupting angels basically). One of their mottos for humanity and the Host is "Be true to your nature". Humanity should be good on all fronts, a Seraphim should rejoice in the truth of the Symphony, a Elohim objective...Malakim be honorable to what he holds dear and vows. As a result dissonance is extremely rare for them and viewed as a deeply disturbing commodity requiring confession, pennace, and sincere remorse (to which they remove it with an attunement or more oaths). So far none have become dissonant enough for execution and those who lose "hope" go usually back to heaven to join Laurence's service. The Burning Circle This attunement is a ability founded by the current leader of the Tsaydim which allows 12 Tsaydim who know it to gather around a demon in a circle and concentrate....each spending 3 essence. The resulting energy causes whoever is inside the circle to undergo a terrifying purification experience that renders the demon if truly repetant into a purified warrior of Uriel's Hunters. In some extreme cases it is rumored that the resulting being is a Malakim but this may just be heavenly rumor. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1753 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.