From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Aug 3 14:50:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08129 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:50:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA29594 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:49:08 -0500 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:49:08 -0500 Message-Id: <200008031949.OAA29594@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1755 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, August 3 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1755 In this digest: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Re: IN> Tsaydim part II-NPCs Re: IN> The short life of PBEMs Re: IN> Habbalated Re: IN> The short life of PBEMs Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Re: IN> The short life of PBEMs IN> New Fire Attunements (was re: Habbalated) Re: IN> Habbalated IN> I Dunno. "A bloodfeud of Demon Princes" isn't snappy enough, somehow. Re: IN> I Dunno. "A bloodfeud of Demon Princes" isn't snappy enough, somehow. Re: IN> Habbalated Re: IN> Habbalated Re: IN> New Fire Attunements (was re: Habbalated) Re: IN> New Fire Attunements (was re: Habbalated) Re: Yves=Adam? (was Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God) Re: IN> Hi Re: IN> Artifact/McGuffin: The Redemption Gun Re: IN> New Fire Attunements (was re: Habbalated) Re: IN> I Dunno. "A bloodfeud of Demon Princes" isn't snappy enough, somehow. Re: IN> I Dunno. "A bloodfeud of Demon Princes" isn't snappy enough, somehow. Re: Yves=Adam? (was Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God) Re: IN> I Dunno. "A bloodfeud of Demon Princes" isn't snappy enough, somehow. IN> More Yves Stuff Re: Yves=Adam? (was Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God) Re: IN> Artifact/McGuffin: The Redemption Gun Re: IN> The short life of PBEMs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:47:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, Rolland Therrien wrote: > >The original reason for this post was suggesting ways to prevent minor > >Word-bound from becoming obscenely powerful in an In Nomine sci-fi game. > >this is just one way to do it. Sure, Orc most likely *is* Angel of All > >Networks In The Entire Universe. However, if you wanted to limit him in a > >sci-fi game, my suggestion is the easiest way to do it. > > > Here's an alternative idea: If Networks start growing beyond Earth, then > that would mean Orc has more and more worlds to cover. So he gets some > subbordinates of his own, assigned by Jean: the angel of Earth's Networks, > the angel of Mars' Networks, the angel of Rigel-4's Networks, and so on... > All of them under the supervirsion, the Angel of Networks. > > That's what really happens when someone does well in a company; they get > promoted and assigned some helpers to expand their division. I rather like this. Of course, if there were spacefaring races before life was created on Earth, it may turn out that Orc *is* one of those subordinates. Or not. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:51:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Rolland Therrien wrote: > Here's an alternative idea: If Networks start growing beyond > Earth, then that would mean Orc has more and more worlds to cover. > So he gets some subbordinates of his own, assigned by Jean: the > angel of Earth's Networks, the angel of Mars' Networks, the angel > of Rigel-4's Networks, and so on... All of them under the > supervirsion, the Angel of Networks. Sounds plausible. What happens when Earth's expanding sphere of influence bumps into that of the Orion Federation, with its own networks already in progress and some angels overseeing them? Much would depend on whether they all report to Jean, or whether Orc reports to Jean, Archangel of Lightning, and Zaphod, Angel of Orionic Networks, reports to Slartybartfarst, Archangel of Tools. Since canon already gives Jean a major Tether in the Jovian system, he already looks pretty cosmic, so I'd recommend the former. Earl Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 09:51:16 -0700 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony > >> > > > Yeah. Assume that the Word-bound (except for Archangels and > >> > > > Demon Princes) are limited to a single world. Orc is the > >> > > > Angel of Earth's Networks, not the Angel of All Networks. > >> > > > >> > > How does that fit with canon? I mean, Orc didn't sign up for > >> > > the Word of Earth's Networks... he is the Angel of Networks. > >> > > >> > Well, yeah. But the game's default focus is Earth. There was no real > >> > reason to specify "Earth's Networks", because the default game doesn't > go > >> > to any other world. > >> > >> A Word reflects a particular part of the Symphony. Unless other planets > >> have their own Symphonies, a Word would be applicable on all planets. > > > >The original reason for this post was suggesting ways to prevent minor > >Word-bound from becoming obscenely powerful in an In Nomine sci-fi game. > >this is just one way to do it. Sure, Orc most likely *is* Angel of All > >Networks In The Entire Universe. However, if you wanted to limit him in a > >sci-fi game, my suggestion is the easiest way to do it. > > > Here's an alternative idea: If Networks start growing beyond Earth, then > that would mean Orc has more and more worlds to cover. So he gets some > subbordinates of his own, assigned by Jean: the angel of Earth's Networks, > the angel of Mars' Networks, the angel of Rigel-4's Networks, and so on... > All of them under the supervirsion, the Angel of Networks. > > That's what really happens when someone does well in a company; they get > promoted and assigned some helpers to expand their division. Yes and if Networks becomes that important... You get you own corner office in the new split-off company with its own Cathedral. The Other David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:18:34 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Tsaydim part II-NPCs Charles Phipps wrote: > > Note: special thanks to David Eldenstein's webpage: > http://www.amadan.org/Innomine/Uriel.htm#AZRAEL CHOIR No problem, and thanks for showing me that I need to change the names of those internal links. (That's what I get for using another page as a template.) - -David E-D-E-L-S-T-E-I-N ;) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:22:05 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The short life of PBEMs Michael Neal wrote: > As far as I can tell, it isn't just PBEMs. Quite simply, you need people > that are willing to make a *commitment.* Yes, I seem to be on a run of > PBEMs (not just IN, BTW) that can't keep going due to long gaps between > postings. But I'm having the same trouble with my face-to-face games. My > best friend just dropped the bombshell on me that he (as well as everyone > else in our group, who were there and agreed) doesn't think that joining a > game that is supposed to meet every other week is actually a commitment, > since it's just a hobby. If something else comes up, so what? Well, I think the players (and GM) have an obligation to let the rest of group know ahead of time, if possible, that they won't be able to make it for a session. But sometimes other things DO come up. You can of course select people for your group that you expect to come reliably. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:23:24 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Habbalated Alex Liddell wrote: > There are rules for the emotions a Habbalah can inflict a person with in the > Core Book. There are attunements that give the Habbalah the ability to > inflict other emotional states upon a person. Forgive me if I am wrong, but > doesn't this royally shaft the Habbalah on Attunements. Much like the > Attunements of Fire (Gabriel) except for the Malakim one, these give the > angel or *angel* the shaft. Yes, this is something that I've been arguing for some time. The precedent was set with the first Demon Prince that gave a new emotion to his Habbalah as their attunement. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 11:29:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Twila Oxley Price Subject: Re: IN> The short life of PBEMs In our current f-t-f role-playing group, attending is viewed as a serious committment, and only weddings, deaths, unexpected changes in work schedules, or one's senior prom (so we included my daughter in the game, grin... we agreed that the French War could be postponed for "reasons of love and fashion"...) are allowed as excuses to miss the previously scheduled game. When one character has previous extreme committments (such as their honeymoon, travel, etc.), they're written out of the game for that period of time and then brought back. It seems to work. This gaming group is one, however, that is made up of two married couples and three other women -- it's really female-heavy! Most of the other gaming groups I've been in haven't been quite so committed. My experience of PBEMs is limited to one which I actually started playing by snailmail. The rules were that the GM synthesized the results of all previous actions sent to him by a certain date, and then projected the plot into the future. You had two weeks to respond with your actions, etc. And then the cycle began again. It was heavily non-dice-based, and had its own unique problems, but when it worked, it was *very* effective. Unfortunately, if the GM was distracted, it fell apart. I started in it in early 1990/91, and it's still going on today, although sporadically. Twila ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 11:28:38 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Space, Everyone Can Still Hear You Disturb The Symphony Yesterday, I think it was, I recommended splitting the Superiors into two ranks, local and cosmic. Here's some elaboration on that. I offer it because some of the Superiors, as their personalities have been developed, just don't seem very cosmic, while others do. It would still work to make all the Superiors cosmic, or all of them local, but, to me, it feels right that expanding the scope of mundane experience, by going out into the galaxy, would parallel an expansion of celestial background. Example: There are seven cosmic Uber-Archangels of Nature. These are beings of the next rank above Archangel. Let's call the "Aeons." They are: - The Aeon of Radiation - The Aeon of Plasma - The Aeon of Gas - The Aeon of Liquid - The Aeon of Solid - The Aeon of Autotrophic Life - The Aeon of Heterotrophic Life Each of these has Archangelic *envoys* on every lifebearing sphere in the universe, and the first five have envoys on many of the non-lifebearing spheres, as well. The Terran envoys are, of course, known as Jean, Gabriel, Janus, Oannes (deceased), David, Novalis, and Jordi. Some envoys are separate, subordinate, local Archangels. Some envoys are permanent local manifestations of their Aeon, termed an "Emanation." Sometimes, an Emanation develops separate consciousness and volition, and becomes a separate Archangel. There are other Aeons besides the Aeons of Nature. Dominic might be a envoy of the Aeon of Justice, for instance. Or maybe he isn't. Other Archangels are not envoys of any Aeon. It's left as an exercise for the GM to decide who is what. But I'd guess that Yves, Eli, and Michael, as we know them, are Emanations, David is a non-Emanation envoy, and Marc is a non-envoy. And what about the devils? Unless you're running a very bright campaign and making Lucifer a local troublemaker, Lucifer-as-occasionally-seen-here is almost undoubtedly an Emanation. The fallen opposite of an Aeon is an Archon, by the way. And is Belial an envoy of an Archon of Fire (and Gabriel is nuts from Word-friction all over the universe)? Or is he a local non-envoy (and envoys of Fire on other worlds are mostly sane)? Also, while an Aeon always rejoices in the "birth" of a new, independent Archangel from Emanation status to separate being, Archons might view the new being as a potential competitor and resorb it. Might this explain Valefor's appearance and the DISappearance of the Demon Prince of Rapine? You see? All kinds of new possibilities opening up. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 11:45:58 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> The short life of PBEMs Janet Anderson wrote: > What is it about IN PBEMs that gives them such a short life? (I don't know > about any others; IN is the only game I've played by e-mail.) Is it the > players or the GMs or a combination? And can it be corrected? All PBEMs, regardless of system, are hanging under the sword. I've been in over a dozen PBEMs and only ONE was completed satisfactorally. (And the one I GMed suffered the same fate... people get busy, fall behind on their email and then... poof!) The longest-lasting ones I've seen are for Amber, but I think that is very mindset related. Amber by email complements Amber FtF nicely. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 13:05:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: IN> New Fire Attunements (was re: Habbalated) Alex, you're absolutely right about Gabriel's attunements, IMO. It's very unfair that her Ofanim and Malakim get cool powers while everyone else just gets the duty. I have been using the following attunements, which I think balance things out a bit. (For the record, these MAY be included in the INC. :) - ------ EXPANDED GABRIEL CHOIR ATTUNEMENTS Note that the text below should be _added_ to the text in the main IN book. SERAPHIM They also know the temperature of anything in their line of vision, even in the dark. This effectively gives them infravision. CHERUBIM Betrayers' skin blisters and itches at the touch of these Cherubim. IF they touch such a person and make a Will roll, the betrayer takes the check digit in damage each turn of contact; this damaging contact can be held for turns equal to the Cherub's Corporeal Forces. If the Will roll is failed, the Cherub takes damage equal to the check digit, but may try again. This can only be done (successfully) once per person. ELOHIM They also have the ability to extract the emotional pain from one person, healing their pain (and Mind hits equal to the angel's Celestial Forces*). They may, with a touch, return this pain to the person who caused it, doin the same amount of mental damage to the aggressor. While these Mind hits are healing, the subject suffers a penalty to ALL rolls equal to the unhealed damage. * Yes, Celestial Forces; it's the angel's spirit healing them, not his mental prowess. KYRIOTATES As long as they have 3 free Forces, these angels can manifest as fire! Their senses and speech work normally, but they cannot actually burn anyone or anything. They do feel as hot as normal fire, however, and those immersed in their flame will probably believe they are burning. MERCURIANS Her Mercurians are experts at igniting the spark within a human. They all have +1 Charisma (in any vessel) and add +1 to any skill roll to inspire or affect emotion in a human (e.g., Sex Appeal, Artistry, Emote). - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth...that you are a slave. Like everyone else, you were born into bondage - born into a prison that you cannot smell or taste or touch...a prison for your mind." -- Morpheus, _The Matrix_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 13:09:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Habbalated On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, David Edelstein wrote: > Yes, this is something that I've been arguing for some time. The > precedent was set with the first Demon Prince that gave a new emotion to > his Habbalah as their attunement. At least Mammon seems to have been fixed in S4... IIRC, his Habbalah are given a BONUS to inflict their Self-Hatred (?) emotion now, instead of being able to "inflict" it. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! Though they broke my legs / They gave me a crutch to walk / Laws to guide me / And a crutch to walk. / Amen. -- Chumbawamba, "Today's Sermon" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 09:41:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> I Dunno. "A bloodfeud of Demon Princes" isn't snappy enough, somehow. Anybody come up with a good name for a gathering of DPs? Especially when gathered as a formal group. I mean, you can semi-get away with making "bunch of AAs" and "Seraphim Council" more or less synonymous (sorta kinda not really), but if there's a good collective name for their opposites in canon, I don't remember it. Morgan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:44:02 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> I Dunno. "A bloodfeud of Demon Princes" isn't snappy enough, somehow. I'd recomment a "horde" for a demonic collective, and a "host" for an angelic one. Both sound a little silly when applied to only two or three individuals, but then the same is true of "herd" or "pack." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 16:47:20 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Habbalated >From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" > > >On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, David Edelstein wrote: > > > Yes, this is something that I've been arguing for some time. The > > precedent was set with the first Demon Prince that gave a new emotion to > > his Habbalah as their attunement. > >At least Mammon seems to have been fixed in S4... IIRC, his Habbalah are >given a BONUS to inflict their Self-Hatred (?) emotion now > We fixed that too. I can't remember which emotion they get the bonus with, but it isn't self-hatred any more. (Covetousness instead?) jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 09:53:30 -0700 (PDT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Enanidah=20Kallai?= Subject: Re: IN> Habbalated - --- David Edelstein > Yes, this is something that I've been arguing for > some time. The > precedent was set with the first Demon Prince that > gave a new emotion to > his Habbalah as their attunement. I don't have the book on me atm - was that core book Superior introduced or not? I think it was, but can't remember which ones. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:43:02 -0400 From: Jeffrey Kreider Subject: Re: IN> New Fire Attunements (was re: Habbalated) "Rev. Pee Kitty" wrote: > > I have been using the following attunements, which I > think balance things out a bit. > > KYRIOTATES > As long as they have 3 free Forces, these angels can manifest as fire! > Their senses and speech work normally, but they cannot actually burn > anyone or anything. They do feel as hot as normal fire, however, and those > immersed in their flame will probably believe they are burning. I like your suggestions. What happens when somebody throws a bucket of water on a Kyriotate manifesting as fire? - -- Jeffrey Kreider aes_sedai@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~aes_sedai/index.html ICQ #1844690 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The shortest distance between two points is under construction. - Noelie Altito ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:50:16 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> New Fire Attunements (was re: Habbalated) Jeffrey Kreider wrote: > What happens when somebody throws a bucket of > water on a Kyriotate manifesting as fire? It manifests as annoyed fire? (If it can't do real damage by burning, it seems only fair that it not take real damage from water, fire-extinguishers, etc.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 18:54:23 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: Yves=Adam? (was Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God) > >Adam is Yves in the same way that Yves is God. Yves is a reflection of >God in the Celestial realm - In Nomine's equivalent of Adam Kadamon. He >is the bridge between God and Humanity in the Symphony. (Incidentally, >this also makes Yves an androgyne.) My heavily researched Qabalah LIKES this. Do you reckon it's a different way of expressing Yves as Chokmah, or a totally different concept? I'm not at all sure, to be honest. And all celestials are androgenous anyway, albeit on a very rarified level. It's only when they hit the corporeal (Malkuth) that they have to take on gender along with a vessel. >Adam is the reflection of Yves in the Corporeal realm. So is Eve (as an >androgyne, Yves is both male and female - "he" served as the template for >both). Interestingly enough this also Lilith a Corporeal reflection of >Yves, which may explain why she can hold a Word while still being human. Where does this leave the descendants of Adam and Eve (or, in other words, the rest of us)? Perhaps all humanity contains a fragment of Yves (or a fragment of the corporeal reflection of Yves) which is what Yves calls 'destiny'? >Kronos begins getting interesting at this point as well. He is In >Nomine's equivalent of a kelippotic Adam Kadamon. This would allow for >the possibility of a corrupted version of Adam and Eve having existed on >the earth. Not necessarily. Depends how you look at the Qlipthoth. Kronos turned up post-fall and post-rebellion. Maybe he's the reflection of Yves in a shattered mirror, just as Adam is the reflection of Yves in a corporeal mirror. If the Kronos reflection came about after Adam was created, there is no necessity for him to reflect back corporeally, if you see what I mean. Alternatively, you could argue that the corrupted version of Adam and Eve was what Adam and Eve became after the Fall. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 18:44:38 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Hi >I've seen the idea of the 4 principle archs relating to directions and >elements before. See Silver Ravenwolf's Angel's Companions in Magick >for details on one way. Not familiar with Silver Ravenwolf (is that Native American or New Age stuff?). It's certainly implicit in the Golden Dawn rituals and could well be far older (an argument for a different forum). My point, really, was that In Nomine, as written in canon, doesn't really correspond to ANY of the traditional stuff. My belief is that was a deliberate choice. To stick it to any tradition or belief system would be to invite criticism on the grounds that it was 'blasphemous' or 'wrong' or 'innacurate'. None of those words (in my opinion) are really applicable to an RPG. In Nomine is a world of it's own - use it as thou wilt. The problem with the way you want to use it (if I'm getting the hang of your ideas right) is the absence of the watery principle in canon. Which of the Archangels should guard the West? Following my own traditions (Qabalistic), I'd want to put Gabriel there, but the fire stuff implicit in canon prevents me. Qabalistically you have Michael (fire) in the South, Uriel (Earth) in the North, Raphael (air) in the East and Gabriel (Water) in the West. East is the entrance, West is the exit. South fights off unwanted intrusions, North 'earths' whatever takes place within the circle. An oversimplification and, probably, arguable (in a different forum). If you take the In Nomine world and adapt it to something in that tradition (or your own tradition, whatever that may be), you may well have a great game. I'm not sure, though, whether you still have In Nomine... Hilary Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 13:02:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN> Artifact/McGuffin: The Redemption Gun Kevin P Meares writes: > To be honest this thing strikes me as a ridiculously bad idea. Your > basicly dropping into the PC's lap(because I guarantee you they will > fina a way to get a hold of it) an instant kill device. Well, it is powerful in both its original and toned down versions, but not any more powerful than any of the major unique artifacts in the Liber Reliquarium meant to be used as plot devices. Yes, PC's will probably get a hold of it for a little while, but like those other items once its purpose has been served one way or another they will lose possession of it. >For starters > doesn't it occur to you that oh I don't know Lucifer or the Game(both > of whom have spies in every organization in Hell) would have shown up > very very quickly and confiscated the gun from Vapula in the first > place. The reason Asmodeus would want it is fairly obvious(easy way to > eliminate troublesome demons just keep a good hold on them so if they > redeem you can finish the job on a weakened celestial). As to Lucifer > there are probably millions of reasons the Prince of Darkness would > want it if for no other reason than his evil sense of humor. Well, as far as the Game is concerned, they do have spies in every organization in Hell, but that doesn't mean they are aware of absolutely everything going on in Hell. If they did, it wouldn't be a Game. It is entirely possible that it slipped pass their notice. Or maybe they were aware of the project but not aware of the detail, just the fact that Vapula put it aside as a failure. And if the toned down version of the TSPP is used, then it definitely looks like a failed project to the Game. As for Lucifer, he seems to follow a philosophy of observation and non-interference when it comes to the schemes and projects of his Princes. As long as something doesn't threaten him personally, or to totally undermine the cause of Hell in a spectacular fashion, he prefers to let his Princes sort things out. If he was aware of Vapula's project, it would be very probable he would be content to watch and see what develops. > Beyond > that its a lot of power to put in any one's hands even an NPC. If you > rolled very well you could wind up wiping out an entire party with out > meaning to. That depends on the NPC. The most likely fate (or destiny if you prefer) of the TSPP will be that it will eventually end up in the hands of a Superior, or at least an NPC who is close to such levels. If the angels get it, then most likely they'll turn it over to Heaven, and it will be up to the Archangels to decide what to do with it. And if a PC decides to secretly keep it, then it will be very interesting to see how long he can keep a it a secret from his Superior. A demonic group of PC's is more likely to want to try to keep it, but they would have even more to worry about when a Prince eventually finds out. It can get really nasty when Asmodeus discovers your holding out on him. And to a group of outcasts and renegades, it is more trouble to try to keep than it's worth. One would be better off making a deal with one side or the other, rather than have both sides continuously coming after you. I don't see the TSPP as any more unbalancing than any of the other Superior artificts like Laurence's Sword or Vapula's Raygun. As for accidently wiping out a party, I can see your point when it comes to the original version. I guess my default mode of thought when I thought this up was a group of PC angels, which meant the worst that could happen when shot was being stunned for a little while. But if the PC's were demons then it would definitely be very dangerous. The toned down version should probably be the one used, to give both angels and demons an equal chance. > Besides the redemption aspect of it throws the entire > point of redemption out the window. Digging your way out of hell is an > aspect for great role playing not a point and click type of thing. It doesn't really negate the role playing aspect of redemption. Remember, it only redeems those who are likely to redeem anyway. The role playing is in the journey one takes to get to the point one wants to redeem, from initial bouts of conscience and nagging doubts about one's existence, to contemplating the possiblity and making a decision, and breaking ties with one's old ways and making a commitment to see it through. Once one reaches the end of the trip by becoming Redemption material, then the exact process of Redemption itself makes little difference. Whether through Superior or artifact, it is the steps which one took to get to that point which really matters. > Heck do you really think Heaven would accept such a being it would > sound a lot like some one with a high potential to yo yo. Well, there are precedents for celestials redeemed via artifact. There's the Holy Lance, which probably redeemed a demon once at least. And I believe a Tear of God (from the Liber Reliqarium) can also redeem a demon who sincerely wants Redemption. But your probably right. Heaven would probably not accept such a being with no questions asked. There would probably be an inquiry where he would have to prove that he has truly redeemed. Research would have to be done. Investigations into his past. Observation of is behavior. Witnesses would probably be called to testify both for and against him. Sounds like a lot of work for some angelic PC's. Incidently, if it did up in Heaven's hands, who should get it? Laurence has his his Sword. Michael has his Axe. Zadkiel has her Shield. Which Archangel's personal style meshes the best with The Redemption Gun as his or her signiture item? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:03:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> New Fire Attunements (was re: Habbalated) On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Jeffrey Kreider wrote: > > > What happens when somebody throws a bucket of > > water on a Kyriotate manifesting as fire? > > It manifests as annoyed fire? > > (If it can't do real damage by burning, it seems only fair > that it not take real damage from water, fire-extinguishers, > etc.) Yeah, what he said. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Human germ!" -- Shrapnel (Decepticon), _Transformers: The Movie_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 14:50:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas J Howell Subject: Re: IN> I Dunno. "A bloodfeud of Demon Princes" isn't snappy enough, somehow. On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: > Anybody come up with a good name for a gathering of > DPs? Especially when gathered as a formal group. > > How about a Cabal? TJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:55:31 -0400 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> I Dunno. "A bloodfeud of Demon Princes" isn't snappy enough, somehow. A Betrayl of DPs. Maybe a Treachery, but I prefer Betrayl. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 14:59:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: Yves=Adam? (was Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God) On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, Omentide wrote: > >Adam is Yves in the same way that Yves is God. Yves is a reflection of > >God in the Celestial realm - In Nomine's equivalent of Adam Kadamon. He > >is the bridge between God and Humanity in the Symphony. (Incidentally, > >this also makes Yves an androgyne.) > > My heavily researched Qabalah LIKES this. Good. I'm glad to know that I'm not horribly misunderstanding the concept. :) > Do you reckon it's a different way of expressing Yves as Chokmah, or a > totally different concept? I'm not at all sure, to be honest. I think it's more like expressing Yves as the entire Tree of Life, if I understand Adam Kadamon correctly. If I had to pick a single Sephirot that he corresponded to, however, I think I'd make it Daat (Knowledge, which isn't really a Sephirot in the same way that Yves isn't really an Angel). Hmmm... An "In Nomine Qabalah" could be interesting. How do these correspondences sound? Keter - Laurence (formerly Michael) [?] Hokhmah - Jean Binah - Raphael (Deceased) (Daat) - Yves Hesed - Novalis Gevurah - Dominic Tiferet - [?] Nezah - Janus Hod - [?] Yesod - David Malkhut - Eli I'm not really sure about Keter, Tiferet, or Hod. > And all celestials are androgenous anyway, albeit on a very rarified > level. It's only when they hit the corporeal (Malkuth) that they have > to take on gender along with a vessel. I may have used the wrong word when I called Yves an androgyne. What I meant is someone who is both male and female simultaneously. The way I see it, angels have no sex, while Yves has both. Incidentally, I would have correlated the Corporeal with the world of Assiyah, not just the sephirot of Malkhut. > >Adam is the reflection of Yves in the Corporeal realm. So is Eve (as an > >androgyne, Yves is both male and female - "he" served as the template for > >both). Interestingly enough this also Lilith a Corporeal reflection of > >Yves, which may explain why she can hold a Word while still being human. > > Where does this leave the descendants of Adam and Eve (or, in other words, > the rest of us)? Perhaps all humanity contains a fragment of Yves (or a > fragment of the corporeal reflection of Yves) which is what Yves calls > 'destiny'? If I was to use the In Nomine cosmology and history straight, I would rule that Soldiers are the descendents of Adam and Eve. the greater the Force potential they have, the purer their lineage is. Normal humans with only a 5-Force potential are primarily descended from the humans who were not part of the Eden Experiment. All of the Children of the Grigori are Nephilim or something similar (Anakim, Zumzummim, etc.). Alternately, assuming that Adam and Eve are the ancestors of the entire human race, the "fragment" of Yves means that all human beings have a touch of divinity in them, making them "embryonic gods". Despite the seeming handicap of the 15-Force ceiling for humans, every member of the human race has the potential to become something *much* greater than even the most powerful Archangel. > >Kronos begins getting interesting at this point as well. He is In > >Nomine's equivalent of a kelippotic Adam Kadamon. This would allow for > >the possibility of a corrupted version of Adam and Eve having existed on > >the earth. > > Not necessarily. Depends how you look at the Qlipthoth. Kronos turned up > post-fall and post-rebellion. Maybe he's the reflection of Yves in a > shattered mirror, just as Adam is the reflection of Yves in a corporeal > mirror. If the Kronos reflection came about after Adam was created, there > is no necessity for him to reflect back corporeally, if you see what I mean. Yes, I do. A broken reflection of Adam and Eve would make for something interesting in a campaign, however. Kronos attempts to create a second (or third) breed of humanity as a reflection of himself. The idea is to use them to nudge humanity as a collective towards it's Fate, tipping the scales of the War in the favor of Hell. > Alternatively, you could argue that the corrupted version of Adam and Eve > was what Adam and Eve became after the Fall. According to the timeline, Kronos came into existence after the Fall. Maybe the corruption of Adam and Eve (even just a little) is what *created* Kronos. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:01:28 -0500 (CDT) From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> I Dunno. "A bloodfeud of Demon Princes" isn't snappy enough, somehow. On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: > Anybody come up with a good name for a gathering of > DPs? Especially when gathered as a formal group. Myself, I would compare the various dark Superiors to ravens, and call them a murder of Princes. ^_^ - -EDG a sleuth of Princes? What's the collective for wolverines? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:07:00 -0400 From: Tim Groth Subject: IN> More Yves Stuff More on my take on Yves to through into the discusion. The way I see it Yves isn't God, but he is arranged in away almost identicial to God. The his Forces are very God like in their arrangement, it makes him very close to God but it doesn't make him God. Likewise Kronos is arranged in a God like manner, he's not God. Adam, Lilith and Eve are designed in a simular way, in fact all of humanity is. Humanity is more God-like than any celestial or ethereal, even Kronos and Yves. Michael doesn't like Yves because he's seen Yves make mistakes as well as make decisions Michael wouldn't and that Michael believes would help Heaven win. This rubs him the wrong way, it doesn't mean he's hostile to God he's hostile to something built like God. As a side note Michael isn't the Seraph's Seraph, Lucifer was (he bore the Word that made him the quintessential Seraph). In fact Michael is very counter stereotype for Seraphim. To some degree so is Dominic. I guess God realized that overly Seraphic Superiors weren't the best thing. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 15:22:14 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Yves=Adam? (was Re: IN> Michael vs Yves vs God) Richard Gant wrote: > I may have used the wrong word when I called Yves an androgyne. > What I meant is someone who is both male and female > simultaneously. The way I see it, angels have no sex, while > Yves has both. "Androgyne" is correct. I think "hermaphrodite" would be, too. In biology, there is a delicate distinction: androgynes are both sexes at once; hermaphrodites change back and forth. Neuters are neither. In Gustav Davidson's "Dictionary of Angels," he says that an angel of no gender or unknown gender is called a "timtum" (or whatever the proper transliteration from Hebrew should be). Earl P.S.: I nominate Gabriel for Hod and Blandine for Tiferet. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:36:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Matt Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Artifact/McGuffin: The Redemption Gun On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, Benjamin Acosta wrote: > Incidently, if it did up in Heaven's hands, who should get it? Laurence > has his his Sword. Michael has his Axe. Zadkiel has her Shield. Which > Archangel's personal style meshes the best with The Redemption Gun as his > or her signiture item? My vote's for one of the Ofanim, Gabriel or Janus. Neither of them have any great findness for demons, and this thing deals with demons in a right quick manner. The ones that get redeemed are either saved from their own cruelty or pushed to change their entire existence, depending on your point of view. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 14:58:09 -0500 From: "Michael Neal" Subject: Re: IN> The short life of PBEMs > Well, I think the players (and GM) have an obligation to let the rest of > group know ahead of time, if possible, that they won't be able to make > it for a session. But sometimes other things DO come up. You can of > course select people for your group that you expect to come reliably. I'm not talking about those kinds of things. I'm talking about the guy that has shown up once in the last four months. Or the GM that cancelled a session because he didn't want to drive in the rain. And so forth. j. Michael Neal ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1755 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.