From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Aug 7 20:38:46 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA16295 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 20:38:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id UAA30583 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 20:37:29 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 20:37:29 -0500 Message-Id: <200008080137.UAA30583@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1762 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, August 7 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1762 In this digest: Re: IN> Fwd: Corpreal Artifacts Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Re: IN> Elohite Archangels (was Faith and the Sword) IN> Weird Campaign lvl Artifact IN> Khalid and Laurence IN> Formatting & Stuff IN> Pagan Religeons (Was Faith and Sword) IN> This will get me in so much trouble... Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Re: IN> Weird Campaign lvl Artifact Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Re: IN> Pagan Religeons (Was Faith and Sword) IN> Thoughts about Lilith (was: Thoughts about Plurals) Re: IN> Pagan Religeons (Was Faith and Sword) Re: IN> Long Thoughts About Plurals IN> Oannes, the feminine and stuff Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Re: IN> Long Thoughts About Plurals IN> Expanded Fire Attunements (somewhat long) Re: IN> Thoughts about Lilith (was: Thoughts about Plurals) Re: IN> Fwd: Human vessels/bodies Re: IN> This will get me in so much trouble... Re: IN> Pagan Religeons (Was Faith and Sword) Re: IN> This will get me in so much trouble... Re: IN> This will get me in so much trouble... Re: IN> This will get me in so much trouble... Re: IN> This will get me in so much trouble... IN> Re: Oannes IN> Re: In Space, Everyone can still hear you disturb the Symphony... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 15:13:37 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: Corpreal Artifacts Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >I have found that corpreal artifacts have a character point cost equal> >th their level as a resource, but where do I find their level as a> >resource? Their level is a resource is equal to the points you spend on them. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 14:06:33 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword > > I have NO Muslim friends, so this IS my view! > > You are joking, right? Yes. > -David Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 19:55:28 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Elohite Archangels (was Faith and the Sword) At 13:46 07/08/00 -0400, you wrote: >Humph! > >Marc. Just Marc. >Elohite Angel of Salvation I trust that was an objective statement... Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:13:15 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Weird Campaign lvl Artifact This is a completely unserious artifact that I for some reason can't get out of my head so I'd thought I'd share it.... Note to all Eli loves; He either comes off as REALLY bad or REALLY good with this. The Apocolypse Globe Opening: "Are you absolutely sure young one?" Dominic puttered around his cathedral pacing with the disturbing ramifications of this. His young Cherub floating with a disturbed look on his face behind him. "Yes sir, Eli and Kobal have been recorded meeting approximately 152 times in the past three years that I have been tracking the Archangel of Creation." the Cherub frowned clearly confused by it all. Dominic had assigned the Cherub because she was loyal to her former friend and would balance out any suspicion and loyalty she felt for her superior.... The Eli case had become a hot topic in Heaven. "We'll give him one last chance to explain himself.....perhaps there is a chance he is not doing something wrong but something good." the evidence Dominic had found was always flimsy, it was not certainly his defination of good but it was not hellish either and often good. It was erratic and a puzzle that HAD to be solved... 'Lord please let Eli prove innocent...' he muttered the prayer he made for each of the angels he judged, though almost always it was in vain. *** "Hmmmm I'm not sure I like this plan Kobal." Haagenti said chewing on his bottomless bag of Snyder's potato souls.....it had been a gift from the Demon Prince of Dark Humor and always made the coolest crunchy sounds. "You'll love it Haagenti....it's something I've been working on for a very long time....it will change the course of history forever." Kobal smirked, pitying his poor "brother" and what was going to happen to him. "Well if you say so..." The Apcolypse Globe Eli's masterwork is a very...err...odd looking device as it appears to be a snowglobe when not activated. The globe contains a eerie looking Transylvanian castle that is perfectly minute in it's detail to the point you could just SWEAR there were people moving inside of it. Activating it of course requires shaking. When activated the globe assumes the form of a large castle that resembles the worst combination of B-Movie horror with mansions. However there is a powerful presence to it that immediately marks it as a tether to the side WHOEVER is viewing it (Soldier of God to Superior) belongs to. Needless to say rainstorms or snowstorms begin whenever the castle arrives. A side effect of the artifact's weather patterns Eli says but really just a cute touch on his part. Trying to explain how the Apcolypse globe works is pretty much impossible as Eli's hundred years of work and genius going into it surpasses anything Kronos, Yves, Raphael, Jean, or Vapula could comprehend (or at least not without ALOT of study). Roughly speaking though it combines the princibles behind the Symphony, Tethers, Timestream, Words, and Essence with Sorcery, Science, and Attunements to become quite possibly the most complicated device since the Earth. Okay Okay, what exactly does it DO? Eli would gladly talk about it for days (he's worked a long time on this) but Kobal sums it up bests "It makes me laugh by trapping superiors" The Apcolypse Globe can contain simply put....every Superior in Heaven, Hell, and quite possibly the Ethereal Plane (though that may be stretching Eli's purpose) in an infinately expanding, contracting, and shifting prison which will restrict their ability to escape quite handily. Even Lucifer cannot get out if Kobal and Eli's understanding of the princibles is correct (explaining THAT requires a understanding of the Word of Light that Eli and Kobal share). Simply put Eli and Kobal intend to trap the Superiors of the War inside the Globe and put and end to it permanently. WHY: This depends on your interpretation of the Archangel of Creation and Kobal...plus possibly God. Possibilities... * Eli believes that it is time the Superiors of the War worked out their differences mano-a-mano without bringing this whole armageddon thing together...and hopefully breaking the War's moral back (maybe he believes they'll LIKE each other again if they sit down and chitty chat) Kobal finds this enormously amusing... * Eli disgusted with the way the Universe is going has decided to rewrite it the way the Ethereals said Yawhew did (and this may be how he did it-if Eli *IS* God). Trapping the Superiors in his globe, he shall extend his word to encompass ALL the words that Hell and Heaven leave behind and do things the way they SHOULD BE DONE. Kobal finds this enormously amusing....and if Eli *IS* god this is the special task he was assigned....to gaurentee God's birth without paradox. * Eli has lost his marbles (likely in any case) and so has Kobal. The Plan Lure the Superiors here with Kobal's help and then suck their energy in while escaping...perhaps even just using projections. Thoughts? - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:25:53 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Khalid and Laurence Personally my opinion stands as stated: It is very foolish for anyone but an Elohite to hold the Word of Faith with the possible exception of a Kyriorite (very good thoughts there). No other choir could possibly have the detached sense of mind and observation to lead humanity to try and touch the Sublime.... I once started one of the longest threads explaining why I felt why Khalid having the Word of Faith as "Belief without Proof" wrong and instead "Conviction you are Right" which still needs a Elohite because a Angel must deal with the fact mortals are consistantly so WRONG. As for Khalid being a "towel headed bomber" I admit that his orginal write-up was very poor and pandered instead to stereotypes even to write an Archangel falling....but in Superiors 3 I must say I was completely satisfied with the way Khalid is recovering.... Points I like * Khalid was an Israelite in the Desert with Moses....the Old Testament growth and harsh conditions go a long way to explaining Khalid's belief ala David that advenrsity hardens you. * Khalid was disenchanted with Uriel because he adopted religeon over others....indeed losing the Elohite perspective in Malakim zeal. Khalid's following of this is very important.... * Khalid while he did not believe God appointed Laurence was not angry with Laurence so much as he believed himself a superior canidate and was worried that more religeons would be overwhelmed by Christianity. (his hypocracy is mute testament to MUCH FAITH) * Khalid as he stands now understands Islam as it was MEANT to be and his servitors now run the stretch from the fanatical, backward, and intolerant to the ultra liberal desiring change with the most inbetween. He is an Archangel with a kingdom filled with what Islam truly is today and he now must rectify his troubles...by reaching out. * Sodekai and his work to foster a new religeon indeed speaks of a great change ahead for mankind that will truly justify Khalid's faith in God...and prove that the spark of the divine exists under all dogma harming his word. Khalid now is a beutiful piece of work and I believe no more offensive than Laurence being the Patron of Christianity and yet being the word of a weapon (something extremerely hypocritical and disgusting until one realizes that a sword buried upside down harming no one...is a cross). When Laurence's crucible is over I see him as a follower of the orginal Christian tenants abandoning the war for more teaching. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 17:31:54 -0300 From: "I Savoy" Subject: IN> Formatting & Stuff Sorry about that, I hadnt even realized it until I saw my message in the digest.. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:33:10 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Pagan Religeons (Was Faith and Sword) Prodigal wrote: >That is because Wiccan practices channel essence to Ethereal Gods rather >than to Heaven. Counterpoint I believe while most "pagan" religeons channel essence some to Ethereal beings it is VERY rare that even the most pagan of religeons does not send ANY essence to Heaven or Hell. In this case Wicca by nature as a pacifistic "Do no Harm" religeon sends essence to Novalis. The Greek Religeons and Aztec only sent essence to the Ethereals when they sent did rituals just to the Gods and never preached against right and wrong. IMHO at least. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 15:43:19 -0700 From: Graveyard Greg Subject: IN> This will get me in so much trouble... http://woundsunlimited.com/issue4/pages/beth.html If she's a Demon Princess, I've been fighting for the wrong side. Nice pic, Beth :) Graveyard Greg Gaming Guardians, the comic! http://gamingguardians.keenspace.com ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 17:27:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword On Mon, 7 Aug 2000, David Edelstein wrote: > > > He also gives the stereotypical american view of muslims "Rag headed > > fanatics who kill anyone that disagrees with them." > > You think he still comes off that way even from the S3 writeup? I'm > disappointed. For the record, I don't. I *do* think he still comes across as way too subjective for an Elohite, but there was nothing more you could do about that, David, without either a *complete* rewrite or changing his Choir. > >I had an idea for an angel of faith that is Wiccan, > > That would never fly in canon, since Wiccan is by definition pagan. If > Khalid didn't reform him, Dominic would fry him. Exactly. A few times since our group started playing In Nomine, I had to point out to a few players that they can't always map their own feelings about 'alternative' (hate that term; can't think of a better one right now) religions onto their angelic characters. One player was talking about how his angel of DOMINIC was into paganism, and I had to tell him, "Sorry, but while you might not have any beef with paganism, your CHARACTER really shouldn't be supporting it if she's pro-Heaven. Paganism is anti-Heaven, as it supports the Ethereals and sucks away Heaven's essence. Doesn't mean you have to attack pagans, or even try to bring down pagan shrines and such, but you really shouldn't support it if you're serving Judgment." > > IMHO more worked needed to be done on Kalid before he was "set loose" on the > > In Nomine universe. > > I don't think having a Muslim Archangel is a bad thing. It's the > fanaticism that needed work. Really, it's the choir (but how many times can we say that? I'm gonna stop after this one...it's enough), and also IMO the choir attunements that kind of bug me. I always thought the "add one to your characteristic" was just... well, ODD. Useful, I guess, but rather boring. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "OH you otten nichel I otten a currency from ten cent of dollar / I grad AT otten AT sap ya but I not otten time" -- (Beginning of Devo's "Wiggly World", run through Babelfish twice) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:47:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Weird Campaign lvl Artifact - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > The Plan > > Lure the Superiors here with Kobal's help and then suck their energy > in while escaping...perhaps even just using projections. > > Thoughts? First, congrats on coming up with a truly unique and twisted artifact (whatever you've been using, share!). As to the use of the Apocalypse Globe in a campaign, this thing is far too powerful to even let PC's find out about -- if it really exists. However, spreading *rumors* about such a device and watching the chaos that ensue is right up Kobal's alley -- and Eli might even cooperate just to see what creative methods Heaven comes up with for dealing with the problem. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "And on the 8th day God created gamers, and he looked down from Heaven and said, 'It is... well... uh...'" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 17:33:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword On Mon, 7 Aug 2000, ben wrote: > > > I have NO Muslim friends, so this IS my view! > > > > You are joking, right? > > Yes. See, (I caught the irony right away, Ben), he was making a point about how people seem to never just say, "That isn't the way I view them, of course." They always seem to say, "I have Muslim friends, so I don't view them that way!" Ask someone white if they're a racist, and they always seem to end up saying, "No! Some of my best friends are black!" whether that last part is true or not. It's kind of weird... like we have to go above and beyond stating our viewpoint and put forth *evidence* of our open-mindedness. Just an odd phenomenon. I smiled at Ben's response when I read it... glad to see someone else notices it, too. For the record, I don't think *anyone* on here sees Muslims as ragheaded truck-bomb-driving fanatic terrorists. They're often fanatic, but no more so than most of the Christians in the spotlight, or most of the Pagans I know. So I don't think that's much of an issue, really. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Human germ!" -- Shrapnel (Decepticon), _Transformers: The Movie_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:55:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Pagan Religeons (Was Faith and Sword) - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > Counterpoint I believe while most "pagan" religeons channel essence > some to Ethereal beings it is VERY rare that even the most pagan of > religeons does not send ANY essence to Heaven or Hell. In this case > Wicca by nature as a pacifistic "Do no Harm" religeon sends essence > to Novalis. I disagree. Plenty of religions advocate doing no harm (at least in their purest forms or in certain variants). Hinduism is very big on nonviolence -- yet it clearly feeds Ethereals. The fact that a belief system promotes peace may strengthen Novalis' Word, but that doesn't in and of itself cause the Essence generated to go to Heaven. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "And on the 8th day God created gamers, and he looked down from Heaven and said, 'It is... well... uh...'" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 17:15:03 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: IN> Thoughts about Lilith (was: Thoughts about Plurals) >For Lilim I prefer Daughter(s) of Lilith. Which, last night, provoked a >long discussion round here about whether or not Lilith was capable of >producing children by biological methods. > > >Ashley and Hilary >omentide.omentide@virgin.net >http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide Some things I've been pondering re Lilith: 1.) The apple story is well-known to be considered a sexual metaphor by many interpreters of the Bible. This being the case, Lilith would have left the Garden before achieving sexual maturity and would be stuck at that stage. (Demonic mission - find the Garden, now probably residing somewhere like the Marches, and get your Mother an Apple....) Instead of menopause, we'd actually be looking at someone who, biologically, was pre-menarche. In that case she'd have to produce the Daughters in some other way. 2.) Eating the apple gave Adam and Eve the Knowledge of Good and Evil. But if Lilith never touched this... she might not care about, or even know, the difference between Good and Evil! Another childlike state.... To her, Heaven and Hell are all the same thing, and Lucifer convinced her that he'd do right by her, so she joined him. The Word of Freedom is utterly neutral with respect to Good and Evil, since both require a conscious choice of path. If you're not free to choose, you can't do good or evil. G:IN specifically points out that every Lilim is given a choice at creation - be Bound, be Free, or be destroyed. Not much of a choice, but it's their decision to serve Hell rather than be destroyed. 3.) Been wondering... could Lilith create a Bright Daughter to begin with? There are many reasons she might not have to date. If she could, then perhaps she would, just once, just to spite Lucifer a little and show him that she's still making her own decisions? That'd be a bizarre character origin. *looks up* "Where am I?" "Hell." "Who am I?" "Your name is Leila." "Who are you?" "My name is Lilith. I am your Mother, Princess of Freedom." "Why am I here?" "I decided to create something different for a change." "Me?" "You." "How am I different?" "You're more caring than your sisters... and me. Among other things." "You don't care about me?" "Maybe. You were created for my own purposes. Caring didn't really come into it. But you won't be able to stick around to understand this more deeply." "Why not?" "Feel the air in this place. How is it to you?" "It... it feels nasty here." "That's understandable. You belong in Heaven." "How do I get there?" "Close your eyes and think about being in a nicer place, where you belong." The Daughter does so, vanishing as she ascends to Heaven like angels can from Hell. When she arrives in the comfortable, soothing Light, she finds on her person a beautiful relic sword, and the calligraphied inscription: "You can choose your friends, and you can choose your enemies, but you can't choose your relatives. Love, Mother" As long as I'm on the subject, could someone(possibly someone official) clarify the "angelic" status of Bright Lilim? For example, could a Superior create a Choir Attunement for them? Granted, there are so few that it would hardly be worth it, but possibly it could be something related to the opposite of their demonic resonance - for example, something having to do with Charity. Could a Bright Daughter ever achieve Archangel status? (Now *there*'s a Choir for the Word of Redemption!) William ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:20:47 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Pagan Religeons (Was Faith and Sword) From: "Charles Phipps" > Prodigal wrote: > >That is because Wiccan practices channel essence to Ethereal Gods rather > >than to Heaven. > > Counterpoint I believe while most "pagan" religeons channel essence some to > Ethereal beings it is VERY rare that even the most pagan of religeons does > not send ANY essence to Heaven or Hell. In this case Wicca by nature as a > pacifistic "Do no Harm" religeon sends essence to Novalis. While Novalis might get some degree of essence from Wicca, it is still centered around the worship of Ethereals, and thus a *huge* no-no for any of Heaven's forces to be following. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 21:34:50 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Long Thoughts About Plurals >I could make a joke about menopause here, but I think it would be safer >not to. ;;;) Though it successfully invokes the tone of last night's conversation. Such jokes were made in the privacy of our own home. Nonetheless, I wouldn't mind knowing the formula for the HRT she's on... Could her alliance with Hell have been hormonally driven? >On a somewhat more serious note, I expect that Lilith *could* reproduce >normally, but that she would not do so by choice. Given that she isn't subject to other corporeal bodily functions (e.g. ageing and dying), she might well still be ovulating. In which case one would have to distinguish between Daughters of Lilith (aka Lilim whether male or female in manifestation) and Lilith's female biological offspring. >Although having her undergoing weird cravings could make for an amusing >adventure seed, as any number of Frees try to bargain their way out of >their Geases in return for getting Mom whatever her current Needs happen to be. Ooh. I completely misread this first time. Thoughts of Lilith worrying about her biological clock ticking away and no gooey biological babies to look after. Lilim competing with each other to find her the perfect (mortal) toyboy with substantial genetic endowment... Roll on the Grigori. Mmmn. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 22:08:18 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: IN> Oannes, the feminine and stuff Beth >My brain just fractured in a skew way... Should I, if an opportunity >should appear, see if I can sell TPTB on Oannes as primarily female, >though maybe only in a 60-40% split? (To explain all the male refs... >Curse the english language fixation on neuter/unknown = "he," anyway...) Two problems. Firstly water and/or oceans. Often sailors think about wind rather than water when setting out on a journey. Fishermen are more interested in the harvest. Many give thanks to Mary. Others give gifts to Poseidon or other deities. Maybe even Bast - - just how many fishermen give part of their catch to the harbour cats. Or to the gulls or various other seabirds. Equally travellers might thank or make offerings to Saint Christopher. Ultimately it does appear that water is broken. maybe water is best left this way. Water does have a feminine component, amd just perhaps it was something missed in the grand scheme by a masculine deity, or maybe he had other ideas... On the feminine. God is a male. He may not have thought some stuff through properly, or equally as above may have grand plans which are outside of common (celestial) knowledge. According to IN God made Lilith, she walked away. Then he made Eve, she did the important bit, bore children, but at the same time there was the apple incident. It seems to me that either God is not that good at making females or his plans are outside the paternalistic (male or androgenous) aspects of Heaven. To put in an Archangel with a profoundly female agenda just does not fit with the profoundly male orientated mythology. I guess it would just about be possible to elevate Mary (though we could argue about which Mary or even more heritically that they were one and the same), but it doesn't really work that well, and in Canon, humans (even Saints) cannot become Celestials let alone Archangels. There are possible ways around this, maybe outside of Heaven and Hell, outside of Celestials and their nature. Preserving Canon would then be a problem, but there are I am sure ways that do not break Canon, or work from parts of Canon which are curently unexplained, or have sufficient gaps in them to create the necessary space. Ashley Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:26:39 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" > > For the record, I don't. I *do* think he still comes across as way too > subjective for an Elohite, but there was nothing more you could do about > that, David, without either a *complete* rewrite or changing his Choir. I agree completely with you here. As anybody who has been through (or knows somebody who has been through) therapy shoul dknow, it takes time to change deep-rooted behavior patterns. And Khalid allowed himself to be subjective for too long to change much more than he already has. (Now, a writeup of Khalid after he has become completely objective about Faith could be an interesting challenge... *g*) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:37:14 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Long Thoughts About Plurals From: "Omentide" > > Given that she isn't subject to other corporeal bodily functions (e.g. > ageing and dying), she might well still be ovulating. I just don't see her willing to undergo all the bodily changes that pregnancy carries with it, though. The selfishness that she had to have developed as a defense mechanism if she was to survive as a Princess is something that I can't reconcile with a willingness to allow another being to take nine months of her time in anything close to that invasive a manner. This could be another reason for why she learned to create Lilim, now that I think of it - perhaps she still felt the maternal urge, but refused to give up her body and time to the process of creating offspring? Being able to create children outside of her body in a fraction of the time would be a perfect compromise, I'd guess. > >Although having her undergoing weird cravings could make for an amusing > >adventure seed, as any number of Frees try to bargain their way out of > >their Geases in return for getting Mom whatever her current Needs happen to be. > > Ooh. I completely misread this first time. Thoughts of Lilith worrying > about her biological clock ticking away and no gooey biological babies to > look after. That's not how I meant it. I was referring to the old stereotype of women wanting ice cream and pickles to eat when they're pregnant. How much weirder could what a Princess wanted to eat be? ;;;) (And how many Geases could you get Mom to trade in for it?) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 14:41:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: IN> Expanded Fire Attunements (somewhat long) Greetings from the Dark Side... An earlier post listed some beefed-up Choir Attunements for angels of fire. While I somewhat agree that the Attunements as written in the main book don't offer much, I must point something out. 1) Most Attunements work automatically with no die rolls and no Essence cost. Gabriel's are no exception. 2) Gabriel's Choir Attunements -- with the exception of those for Ofanim and Malakim -- detect some form of cruelty. 3) If a demon is doing his or her job, some kind of cruelty is going to be involved. These three facts add up to one thing: angels of Fire can *automatically* detect demons! The main limitation of this is that the angel doesn't know that the target is a demon. Even so, ALL demons will "ping" on some kind of Gabrielite radar. In fact, no demon can hide from an angel who has the Seraphic, Cherubic, Elohite and Kyriotate of Fire Attunements. However, since I do agree that angel of Fire Attunements could offer a little more bang for the buck, here's a list of expanded Fire Attunements that help Gabriel's Servitors do their jobs a little better. The text here can be tacked onto the end of the text in the main book. In every case, "subject" refers to the kind of person detected by the Choir Attunement. Seraphim: These Seraphim add their number of Celestial Forces to the Target Number of any attempt to use their Resonance on a subject or to extract a confession from such a person. Cherubim: If they use their Resonance on a subject, they do not incur Dissonance for harming that person. Elohim: With a touch, these Powers can cause a subject to feel the pain of their victim (the subject can resist with a Will roll). [This one is similar to an expanded Elohite of Fire Attunement that was posted earlier. I liked that one, but I believe that Gabriel is mostly about punishing the guilty -- she's perfectly willing to leave healing to Novalis.] Kyriotates: Dominations of Fire automatically succeed when using their Resonance on victims of physical abuse (roll anyway to get the Check Digit). While possessing that host, they add their number of Corporeal forces to the Target Number of any attempt to give the abuser a taste of his own medicine. Mercurians: These angels begin play with 10 additional Character Points which can only be spent on a Role appropriate to their Choir Attunement. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "And on the 8th day God created gamers, and he looked down from Heaven and said, 'It is... well... uh...'" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:54:02 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Thoughts about Lilith (was: Thoughts about Plurals) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "William J. Keith" To: Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 4:15 PM Subject: IN> Thoughts about Lilith (was: Thoughts about Plurals) > Some things I've been pondering re Lilith: [snip] > 3.) Been wondering... could Lilith create a Bright Daughter to begin with? > There are many reasons she might not have to date. If she could, then > perhaps she would, just once, just to spite Lucifer a little and show him > that she's still making her own decisions? That'd be a bizarre character > origin. And even if she can't do it directly, she *can* easily create a daughter -- and then, five seconds after she's born, Lilith looks over at the Archangel standing next to her and says "OK, now it's *your* move -- and you owe me one." After all, a Free Lilim with absolutely zero exposure to any Balseraphic propaganda or any of Hell's culture at all is probably wide-open for Redemption straight out the gate... especially if "Mom" took a little extra care with her Ethereal Forces to make sure that she was born with the right frame of mind... [snip] > As long as I'm on the subject, could someone(possibly someone official) > clarify the "angelic" status of Bright Lilim? For example, could a > Superior create a Choir Attunement for them? Yes. There are Bright Lilim attunements listed for every angelic Superior with an expanded writeup (that is to say, all those in Superiors 1 and 3 and, IIRC also in the various books of the Revelations cycle...) [snip] > Could a Bright Daughter ever achieve Archangel status? (Now *there*'s a Choir for the Word of Redemption!) Theoretically, yes Practically speaking, I don't think they live long enough to be even a remote possibility for the job. (In addition to the danger of "yo-yoing", there's the problem that they *really* hostile attention from their ex-comrades... even more so than the average Redeemed demon. Especially as far as the Game is concerned -- Asmodeus seems to have a special place in his heart for Lilim that Redeem, even moreso than any other Band.)7 Besides, there's been what, exactly *one* new Archangel in the past 2000 years? And he was a replacement for a departed Superior? This ain't Hell, they have a *very* low turnover on Superiors. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 18:33:10 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: Human vessels/bodies Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > I'm sorry I have to ask this, but the IN core book and the Corporeal > >Player's Guide contradict on this point and the errata is still > >unclear. Do humans gain any free 'vessel level' for calculating body > >hits, or are they limited to the two levels of toughness that they may > >purchase? From the FAQ: The rules for calculating a mortal's hits has been changed. The new formula is [Corporeal Forces + Toughness] times Strength. IOW, there is no 'vessel level'. Default for Toughness is 0. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 2000 17:23:39 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> This will get me in so much trouble... On Mon, 07 August 2000, Graveyard Greg wrote: > http://woundsunlimited.com/issue4/pages/beth.html Cool! And a pic of Em, too! Now all you need are pics of Jo and Maya, and I'll have a complete collection! By the by, I'm completely okay with posing for the follow-up "Studs of Gaming." I'm told I look fabulous in a posing pouch... ;) - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 19:39:18 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Pagan Religeons (Was Faith and Sword) Charles Phipps wrote: > Counterpoint I believe while most "pagan" religeons channel essence some to > Ethereal beings it is VERY rare that even the most pagan of religeons does > not send ANY essence to Heaven or Hell. No, not very rare. Just harder to track. > In this case Wicca by nature as a > pacifistic "Do no Harm" religeon sends essence to Novalis. Which is why Novalis might not have a problem with Wiccans. Nor would most of the more religiously-indifferent angels, providing they are not actually feeding ethereal spirits (which most pagans are not, in IN, simply because usually they don't know enough to have any real effect with their prayers and rites). But if they are, it's a Bad Thing. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 19:43:52 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> This will get me in so much trouble... Graveyard Greg wrote: > > http://woundsunlimited.com/issue4/pages/beth.html > > If she's a Demon Princess, I've been fighting for the wrong side. Nice pic, > Beth :) So Emily was wrong -- women DO describe their own bra sizes online. - -David (or does this mean Elizabeth is really a man?) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 19:40:09 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> This will get me in so much trouble... From: "David Edelstein" > > So Emily was wrong -- women DO describe their own bra sizes online. > > -David (or does this mean Elizabeth is really a man?) Assuming that Emily and Beth leave enough pieces of you intact that they can locate and bury you, David, what sort of flowers would you like placed upon your grave? ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 19:51:46 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> This will get me in so much trouble... Casca wrote: > By the by, I'm completely okay with posing for the follow-up "Studs of Gaming." I'm told I look fabulous in a posing pouch... ;) What the heck is a "posing pouch"? You sit in a kangaroo and say "cheese"? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 20:51:08 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> This will get me in so much trouble... David Edelstein wrote: > So Emily was wrong -- women DO describe their own bra sizes online. http://www.pamie.com/July00/13July00.shtml > -David (or does this mean Elizabeth is really a man?) I *doubt* it! =) You should too, if you know what's good for ya! - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 19:08:26 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: IN> Re: Oannes > The whole game has serious problems >with water and Binah equates with the primal oceans (amongst other things), >also with strong feminine stuff (which IN also tends to lack). >My brain just fractured in a skew way... Should I, if an opportunity >should appear, see if I can sell TPTB on Oannes as primarily female, >though maybe only in a 60-40% split? (To explain all the male refs... >Curse the english language fixation on neuter/unknown = "he," anyway...) In short, YES. Ki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 18:39:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: In Space, Everyone can still hear you disturb the Symphony... Sometime earlier today, Beth wrote: >And people wonder how _Book of Night with Moon_ (and, >frankly, all the other "So You Want To Be A Wizard?" >series books) relate to IN. Ignore the talking cat->mages -- it's all about the relations that drive the >stories. It's about thwarting "the Eldest, Fairest, >andFallen." Hoo, yeah. Great stuff for a Bright campaign (and someday I _will_ find the notes I started on doing that series as a :SJG's First RPG: campaign, tear them up, and rewrite for IN instead. Much as I love SJGFRPG, IN is really a much better fit). As to the earlier (non-quoted) Bujold-related suggestion* ... hmmm. I think that you could do a humans-only universe, and it'd even be a neat universe, but I don't know if it'd be my kind of neat universe. I like weird aliens and weirder alien faiths. Doing an alien Superior would be kinda tricky, though. Where does one start? Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Dexitroboping *If you think Larry would be perturbed by Miles, imagine Mike dealing with Cordelia... :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1762 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.