From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Aug 8 14:19:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA32140 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 14:19:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA14344 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 14:18:04 -0500 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 14:18:04 -0500 Message-Id: <200008081918.OAA14344@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1764 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, August 8 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1764 In this digest: Re: IN> New Campaign - and questions from my players Re: IN> New Campaign - and questions from my players IN> Precision Re: IN> Weird Campaign lvl Artifact Re: IN> Laurencemon and LeviathanTwo... Re: IN> Weird Campaign lvl Artifact Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Re: IN> Precision Re: IN> Great Books Re: IN> This will get me in so much trouble... Re: IN> Weird Campaign lvl Artifact Re: IN> Laurencemon and LeviathanTwo... Re: IN> Faith and The Sword IN> Holy and Unholy Bullets Re: IN> Precision Re: IN> Weird Campaign lvl Artifact Re: IN> New Campaign - and questions from my players Re: IN> Precision Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Re: IN> Pronounciation: was Long Thoughts About Plurals Re: IN> Precision Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Re: IN> Precision Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Re: IN> Precision Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Re: IN> Thoughts about Lilith (was: Thoughts about Plurals) Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Re: IN> Weird Campaign lvl Artifact Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Re: IN> Faith and The Sword ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 11:58:35 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> New Campaign - and questions from my players josephr@ca.ibm.com wrote: > Which does have a point - no other relics or talismans are one-shot items, > and vessels, roles and songs don't go away if you use them - why should the > bullets? There's an option in Liber Reliquarum for making 'one-shot items' cost no character points, but still require an investment in time and Essence. If you don't like it, simply provide bullets to servitors when their Superior is happy with them and ignore the CP cost. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 09:06:00 -0700 (PDT) From: sw@haven.eyrie.org Subject: Re: IN> New Campaign - and questions from my players > The one MAJOR complaint I'm getting is about resources - and in specific, > the Holy/Unholy bullets. > > To be brief, I'm getting grief from them on how, from a game design > setting, it doesn't make sense to use their character points for a resource > whose only purpose is to be used up, and which doesn't replenish. > > Which does have a point - no other relics or talismans are one-shot items, > and vessels, roles and songs don't go away if you use them - why should the > bullets? > > Have the rules on the bullets changed? Is there some solution I'm missing? > some rule I'm not picking up on? > Or should I just tell them "It is ineffable" - and go from there. Well, you're the GM. I'd just have a set number that "regenerate" whenever there's a "...and several days pass" jump in play, or between sessions, or whatever, and adjust the rate at which they re-stock depending on play, as a reward/punishment. "Bad angel! No bullets for you!" Then again, I don't actually have the book handy to look at the rule... That's just how I'd do it. - --JT ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 12:05:21 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Precision Could someone explain the meaning and use of the Precision attribute? How does it differ from Intelligence or Agility? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 12:07:57 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Weird Campaign lvl Artifact Rolland Therrien wrote: > Ooh, I want to trade one of my Laurencemon for a Davidsaur. > And I'll be hunting hard for the elusive LeviathanTwo. Hm. I can just see imps and relievers getting into trouble, fraternizing with the Enemy, collecting and exchanging Word-Bound trading cards. Especially those of Marc and Mammon. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 12:09:34 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Laurencemon and LeviathanTwo... - --On Tuesday, August 8, 2000 11:54 AM -0400 Twila Oxley Price wrote: > > Giggle. Snort. I like! Can't you just *see* Laurence's face when he > saw the digitized cartoon of a Laurencemon?! > > Twila (whose daughter SOLD Pokemon for a while, and who has her very > own talking Pikachu, though she likes Totoro and Miyazaki's stuff > better) > > OBInNomine: It's too easy to blame Pokemon on Nybas, or Kobal. What > OTHER demon princes might be responsible? Or, alternatively, what > might the Angel of Pokemon be like? Baseball cap. Followed by an insane number of relievers. Badly dubbed. Betcha the snickering in Council gets on Christopher's nerves. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Gotta save 'em all!") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 12:12:49 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Weird Campaign lvl Artifact - --On Tuesday, August 8, 2000 10:26 AM -0700 Rolland Therrien wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marc Bowden > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Date: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 7:01 AM > Subject: Re: IN> Weird Campaign lvl Artifact > > >> >> >> --On Tuesday, August 8, 2000 6:03 AM -0700 Michael Walton >> wrote: >> >>> >>> --- Charles Phipps wrote: >>>> Also the artifact becomes a bit more manegable and interesting if >>>> toned down >>>> (maybe Eli's been working on it as a SIDE-prodject for 20 or so >>>> years) if it >>>> only imprisons one major level superior and he wants the PCs to >>>> help in the >>>> final checkout of it....Beleth, Belial, etc. >>>> >>>> Of course this opens the whole idea in my mind about Lucifer >>>> being imprisoned for 1000 years and Eli's Apcolypse globe being >>>> made for ONE >>>> *VERY* special person. >>> >>> Ooooh! Now this I like! >>> >> >> Wait. Eli spent 100 years making the Celestial equivalent of a >> *pokeball*? > > > Ooh, I want to trade one of my Laurencemon for a Davidsaur. And > I'll be hunting hard for the elusive LeviathanTwo. > > Gotta Catch'em All! > > -Exit the LoneWolf (Who knows too much about Pokemon for his own > good... > So *that's* what an Infernal Leauge badge looks like... ;) Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Dear God, what have I done?") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 11:29:39 -0600 From: shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Prodigal wrote: > > From: "shadowcat" > > > David Edelstein wrote: > > > > > > See S3, where I did my best to "fix" Khalid. > > > > No offense to David, but I think Kalid as written is broken beyond repair. > > He still comes off as a zealot of the highest order. > > But nowhere near so much as he did in The Final Trumpet. This is true, and for that I am thankful, he just still rubs me the wrong way. Then again to be fair, Dominic, and Lawrence do as well. I think the problem with Kalid was that he seemed to go for the "Cheap shot" of stereotype at start, and I had hoped that he would be more centered in the S3. > > He also gives the stereotypical american view of muslims "Rag headed > > fanatics who kill anyone that disagrees with them." > > Not anymore, he doesn't. The notes about how his distinctions had been > changed from their previous versions did a lot to dispel this image of him, > as well as the discussions of how he no longer supports terrorists among his > followers. I reread the chapter on Kalid last night, and you are right he has toned down, he still seems a little to fanatical for me. > > I had an idea for an angel of faith that is Wiccan, but the problem is the > > way he is written Kalid would take this angel and reform it, because it is > > worse then a nonbeliever, it is leading people astray, and to hell in his > viewing. > > That is because Wiccan practices channel essence to Ethereal Gods rather > than to Heaven. Two points here. One my bad. The note was posted after I had to work third shift unexpectedly Sun. night so I got a couple things scrambled in my head. The character I was trying to create for Kalid was a "Holy Roller, bible thumper, tent revival christian." He feels a lot more like he should be of faith then the sword, but would probably be "cast out" by Kalid in short order, this seems wrong to me. Point two, Not all wiccans would send essence to Ethereal Gods. I for one would have it going right to Heaven. I am both a christian and a Wiccan. so why would it not be possible for the same to be true of a angel of faith? He has faith that God/Allah is the one true MALE deity, but also believes that he has a more quiet/gentle female counterpart. This character could even be a Angel on loan/serving Novalis after a falling out with Kalid. > > If you use the Sunni lens he works all right as an Elohite. > > If you take into account that he skirted Falling, and has only recently > begun changing behaviors that he relied on for centuries, he still works all > right. At least for me. So are we going to get yet ANOTHER version of Kalid in a few months/years? This seems a little to Pale Puppy like. Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 11:20:43 -0500 (CDT) From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Precision On Tue, 8 Aug 2000, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Could someone explain the meaning and use of the Precision > attribute? How does it differ from Intelligence or Agility? The way I interpret it, Agility is used for gross movement, while Precision is used for fine movement. (I don't exactly know how better to express that...) Someone with high Agility and low Precision might be a world-class athlete whose hands shake when he tries to type or work on electronics. Someone with low Agility and high Precision could be a first-chair violinist who trips over her own feet. Thoughts? - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 12:32:28 -0700 From: Rolland Therrien Subject: Re: IN> Great Books - -----Original Message----- From: shadowcat To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 8:21 AM Subject: Re: IN> Great Books >Robb-Escue wrote: > >> If you like comic books more than novels, > > I wouldn't say that, I am a veracious reader, I will read damn neer anything >as long as it is good. I have the demon series, I enjoyed it. Another series >I have like is "Warrior Nun Ariela " put out by Antarctic Press. It can give >some good ideas of humans in the war. I love the Warrior Nun Areala series. I keep imagining Areala as a Malakite of the Sword, using the Sister Shannon identity as a Role, working for the Order of Warrior Nuns, a group of Soldiers organised by Laurence, along with the magic priests. - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 11:43:29 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> This will get me in so much trouble... From: "David Edelstein" > Prodigal wrote: > > David was making the sort of comment that, in anime, > > typically results in one or more female characters > > whipping out the big-ass mallets. ;) > > Good thing I'm not an anime character, huh? Spoilsport! ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:03:29 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Weird Campaign lvl Artifact From: "Marc Bowden" > > wrote: > > > > -Exit the LoneWolf (Who knows too much about Pokemon for his own > > good... > > So *that's* what an Infernal Leauge badge looks like... ;) Team Valefor just swiped mine... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:00:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Laurencemon and LeviathanTwo... Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 11:54:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Twila Oxley Price Subject: IN> Laurencemon and LeviathanTwo... >OBInNomine: It's too easy to blame Pokemon on Nybas, >or Kobal. What OTHER demon princes might be >responsible? All of them, really, with the possible exception of Saminga ("All this fighting, and nobody ever dies?") and Kronos ("Bah." Kronos is kinda square sometimes). _My_ vote would be for Baal: you see, he's going to need _lots_ of handlers for the gene-engineered monsters Vapula keeps promising him in a century or two, and lo! the design specs look uncannily like certain classic Pokemons*... >Or, alternatively, what might the Angel of Pokemon be >like? Hard to tell, since he's running like hell right now. Nothing like an outraged Soldier-mom brandishing a fiery sword to make an Mercurian of the Wind grateful for his Attunements... :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Zadkiel, I Choose YOU!... *You don't want to know what Pikachu really eats. _Trust_ me, you don't. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:18:56 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword From: "shadowcat" > Prodigal wrote: > > > > From: "shadowcat" > > > > > No offense to David, but I think Kalid as written is broken beyond repair. > > > He still comes off as a zealot of the highest order. > > > > But nowhere near so much as he did in The Final Trumpet. > > This is true, and for that I am thankful, he just still rubs me the wrong > way. Then again to be fair, Dominic, and Lawrence do as well. I think the > problem with Kalid was that he seemed to go for the "Cheap shot" of stereotype > at start, and I had hoped that he would be more centered in the S3. As I said in another message on this thread, it takes time to chnage deeply-seated behaviors. So if a human can't make as drastic a change as you would have liked Khalid to have made, how much less likely is it for Khalid to have changed that drastically in the amount of time that passed between TFT and S3, especially since he had been behaving the way he did in his original incarnation for more than one human lifetime? And IIRC, Khalid's original writeup was an almost direct translation of the version of him presented in In Nomine Satanis/Magna Verite, which takes pride in the cheapness of its shots. ;;;) > I reread the chapter on Kalid last night, and you are right he has toned > down, he still seems a little to fanatical for me. He isn't the "kill anyone who disagrees with him" type any more, though. Like I said, he's still got a ways to go about improving. > > That is because Wiccan practices channel essence to Ethereal Gods rather > > than to Heaven. > > Two points here. One my bad. The note was posted after I had to work third > shift unexpectedly Sun. night so I got a couple things scrambled in my head. > The character I was trying to create for Kalid was a "Holy Roller, bible > thumper, tent revival christian." He feels a lot more like he should be of > faith then the sword, but would probably be "cast out" by Kalid in short > order, this seems wrong to me. As long as the angel in question was not working miracles or giving the people in the tents proof of Heaven or Hell, I don't see Khalid outcasting him. I could see him having regular meetings with him to make sure that he was not giving them faith in the wrong things, and as a non-Muslim he would likely not rise very far in the ranks of the Faithful without Khalid mellowing farther than he has, but outcasting is by no means assured. And with that said, I think it's time for me to start working up both the Angel and Demon of Tent Revivals... *g* > Point two, Not all wiccans would send essence to Ethereal Gods. I for one > would have it going right to Heaven. I am both a christian and a Wiccan. so > why would it not be possible for the same to be true of a angel of faith? Because Wicca is designed to venerate the Ethereal gods and goddesses. While I agree with whomever stated that the majority of Wiccans are unable to consciously direct their essence toward the Ethereals, Wicca still represents a net gain for forces not of Heaven, and this is a big no-no for most archangels. > > If you take into account that he skirted Falling, and has only recently > > begun changing behaviors that he relied on for centuries, he still works all > > right. At least for me. > > So are we going to get yet ANOTHER version of Kalid in a few months/years? Perhaps not officially, but I know that I am going to rework Khalid even further for the game I plan on running. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:34:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: IN> Holy and Unholy Bullets - --- josephr@ca.ibm.com wrote: >The one MAJOR complaint I'm getting is about resources - and in > specific, > the Holy/Unholy bullets. > > To be brief, I'm getting grief from them on how, from a game design > setting, it doesn't make sense to use their character points for a > resource > whose only purpose is to be used up, and which doesn't replenish. Unfortunately, you didn't miss anything. The rules for (Un)Holy Bullets are among the inevitable broken rules that appear in every new system (at least, their broken in my opinion). I can only surmise that this particular rule exists to encourage roleplay over combat munchkinism. If so, I don't find it to be an especially satisfying fix. One possible fix is to let PC's have a _source_ for (Un)Holy Bullets. That way, the CP's are spent on something that doesn't go away after one combat. If you go this route, be sure to have the PC's roleplay meeting with their connections to reload -- abuse this kind of resources and you could easily lose it. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "And on the 8th day God created gamers, and he looked down from Heaven and said, 'It is... well... uh...'" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:40:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Precision - --- EDG wrote: > Someone with high Agility and low Precision might be a world-class > athlete > whose hands shake when he tries to type or work on electronics. > Someone > with low Agility and high Precision could be a first-chair violinist > who > trips over her own feet. The metaphor I've always used is this: a person with high Precision (or whatever the appropriate attribute is called) would be good at video games or brain surgery. One with high Agility (sic) would be good at acrobatics. Now that two of us said the same thing in slightly different ways, is there anybody out there who needs a third example? o;;;> ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "And on the 8th day God created gamers, and he looked down from Heaven and said, 'It is... well... uh...'" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:46:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Weird Campaign lvl Artifact > Ooh, I want to trade one of my Laurencemon for a Davidsaur. And I'll > be > hunting hard for the elusive LeviathanTwo. > > Gotta Catch'em All! OK, I can see that it's time that I wrote up the Angel of Anime Eradication -- Christopher is tired of the hold that these things have on young minds! Gotta Cap 'em All! ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "And on the 8th day God created gamers, and he looked down from Heaven and said, 'It is... well... uh...'" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 12:53:08 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> New Campaign - and questions from my players josephr@ca.ibm.com wrote: > Which does have a point - no other relics or talismans are one-shot items, Not true. They're just the only ones mentioned in the main book. > and vessels, roles and songs don't go away if you use them - why should the > bullets? Because bullets aren't reusable. > Have the rules on the bullets changed? Is there some solution I'm missing? > some rule I'm not picking up on? In Nomine is not Champions. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 12:55:27 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Precision Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Could someone explain the meaning and use of the Precision > attribute? How does it differ from Intelligence or Agility? Precision is the ability to concentrate and focus your mind. It doesn't get used much in IN, admittedly. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 13:04:35 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword shadowcat wrote: > This is true, and for that I am thankful, he just still rubs me the wrong > way. Then again to be fair, Dominic, and Lawrence do as well. Sounds to me like you basically don't like Archangels who actually practice a specific religion. This would be something for the GM to modify to suit his tastes, but I think it waters the game down to make all the angels wishy-washy Unitarians. > The character I was trying to create for Kalid was a "Holy Roller, bible > thumper, tent revival christian." He feels a lot more like he should be of > faith then the sword, but would probably be "cast out" by Kalid in short > order, this seems wrong to me. No, Khalid is now more accepting of Christian Servitors. > Point two, Not all wiccans would send essence to Ethereal Gods. I for one > would have it going right to Heaven. I am both a christian and a Wiccan. Well, you're getting into a sticky area when you try to correlate your real-life beliefs to what effect they would have in In Nomine. Canonically, no, the fact that you are a Christian and a Wiccan doesn't guarantee that your Essence might not be feeding an ethereal spirit. > So are we going to get yet ANOTHER version of Kalid in a few months/years? Not AFAIK. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 14:03:07 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Pronounciation: was Long Thoughts About Plurals In a message dated 8/7/00 11:44:39 AM, emccoy@nh.ultranet.com writes: >>I say OFF-a-nim, but one of my In Nomine groups says, Oh-FAN-im. >> >>Which is correct? > >Beats me -- you'd have to go to the Hebrew (?) for that. But I use >"oh-FAN-im" myself... Hmm... I use OH-fah-Neem. And SAY-rah-Feem. And Chair-you-BEEM. (Occasionally, I slip and use Cair-you-BEEM...) But I've been infected by Kione Greek. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 14:12:32 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Precision - --On Tuesday, August 8, 2000 12:55 PM -0500 David Edelstein wrote: > Earl Wajenberg wrote: >> >> Could someone explain the meaning and use of the Precision >> attribute? How does it differ from Intelligence or Agility? > > Precision is the ability to concentrate and focus your mind. It > doesn't get used much in IN, admittedly. > Ow. Marc. Just Marc. Elohoite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 14:11:40 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword David Edelstein wrote: > Sounds to me like you basically don't like Archangels who actually > practice a specific religion. This would be something for the GM to > modify to suit his tastes, but I think it waters the game down to > make all the angels wishy-washy Unitarians. I wonder if the real-world religion that fits In Nomine best might not be Ba'hai. Of course, that, like any other real-world religion, entails resolving various chunks of canonical uncertainty. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 14:14:18 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Precision David Edelstein wrote: > Precision is the ability to concentrate and focus your mind. It > doesn't get used much in IN, admittedly. Thank you. Thanks also to Michael and EDG, even if their descriptions are pretty divergent from this one. Oh well. In the home-brew rules I am most familiar with, there are Appearance and Size attributes, which could theoretically be rolled against, but never in the fifteen years we've used the rules has anyone ever made a Size roll. ("I try to look big!") Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 13:42:07 -0600 From: shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword David Edelstein wrote: > > shadowcat wrote: > > This is true, and for that I am thankful, he just still rubs me the wrong > > way. Then again to be fair, Dominic, and Lawrence do as well. > > Sounds to me like you basically don't like Archangels who actually > practice a specific religion. This would be something for the GM to > modify to suit his tastes, but I think it waters the game down to make > all the angels wishy-washy Unitarians. Not at all. My problem is with archangels, and people, that wear they religion on their sleeve. I.E., they are identified by their religion, not their person. I grew up a southern baptist deacon's son, and got more then my fill of having christianity shoved down my throat. It made it all the worse when my father was in an accident that almost killed him, and the church turned its back on him, with no help at all. Kalid, Dominic, and Lawrence get to me because they scream their religion. Michael (patron of Israel), and David are active, but not screaming from the roof tops they they are the only right way. I still use Dominic, and Lawrence, just tone down their fanaticism a hair. I will probably do the same with Kalid, now that it is possible to have him be other then a raving zealot > > The character I was trying to create for Kalid was a "Holy Roller, bible > > thumper, tent revival christian." He feels a lot more like he should be of > > faith then the sword, but would probably be "cast out" by Kalid in short > > order, this seems wrong to me. > > No, Khalid is now more accepting of Christian Servitors. It didn't feel so the way I read it. It felt more like if you were not a muslim, you got treated like "a red headed step child." > > Point two, Not all wiccans would send essence to Ethereal Gods. I for one > > would have it going right to Heaven. I am both a christian and a Wiccan. > > Well, you're getting into a sticky area when you try to correlate your > real-life beliefs to what effect they would have in In Nomine. > Canonically, no, the fact that you are a Christian and a Wiccan doesn't > guarantee that your Essence might not be feeding an ethereal spirit. I know the area is sticky, but I was using it as an example. I do see your point, but does this mean that the big 3 are the only true religions in In Nomine cannon, and all others are just feeding anti-heavenly forces? > > So are we going to get yet ANOTHER version of Kalid in a few months/years? > > Not AFAIK. That is both good and bad. Good in that fans won't have to buy multiple books to keep up with Superiors views. Bad in that we are therefore stuck with Kalid in a transitory form and not a more balanced and elohite form. Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 13:45:38 -0600 From: shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > David Edelstein wrote: > > > Sounds to me like you basically don't like Archangels who actually > > practice a specific religion. This would be something for the GM to > > modify to suit his tastes, but I think it waters the game down to > > make all the angels wishy-washy Unitarians. > > I wonder if the real-world religion that fits In Nomine best > might not be Ba'hai. Of course, that, like any other real-world > religion, entails resolving various chunks of canonical uncertainty. Not to sound ignorant, but what is Ba'hai? I had never even seen the word till I was ramming around Chicago, and it is mentioned as a divinely inspired religion in the write up of Kalid. Could someone give me a summary of it? John ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 13:43:28 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Precision Marc Bowden wrote: > > Precision is the ability to concentrate and focus your mind. It > > doesn't get used much in IN, admittedly. > > > > Ow. Heh. I didn't mean it quite that way. - -David (at least I didn't say it doesn't get used much on the IN LIST...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:42:40 -0500 (CDT) From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword On Tue, 8 Aug 2000, shadowcat wrote: > I still use Dominic, and Lawrence, just tone down their fanaticism a hair. I > will probably do the same with Kalid, now that it is possible to have him be > other then a raving zealot IIRC, Dominic and Laurence don't scream out their religious preference. While Laurence is vocally pro-Catholic, it is because he believes in the tenets of Catholicism - and not being a Seraph, he can't say for sure whether they're right, but they match his ideology better than any he's seen. Dominic, on the other hand, recognizes that the Church is not perfect. He does, however, view Catholicism as the best of the options, in terms of getting humanity united with Heaven's goals in mind. > It didn't feel so the way I read it. It felt more like if you were not a > muslim, you got treated like "a red headed step child." Khalid prefers that his servitors be Muslim, or at the least follow the Muslim laws. He does understand that Islam is not the only Faith, but - like Dominic to Catholicism - sees it as humanity's best hope. He will not, however, forbid an angel from his service simply because that angel is not Muslim; he is an Elohite, after all. On the other hand, he also skirted Falling for years upon years, and that's an edge from which it's hard to back away. > I know the area is sticky, but I was using it as an example. I do see your > point, but does this mean that the big 3 are the only true religions in In > Nomine cannon, and all others are just feeding anti-heavenly forces? Anti-Heavenly is not quite the way to put it; neither is "true religions". There are prescribed Divine Religions in In Nomine (I forget offhand in which book they're listed, though I want to say the CPG); the other religions /might/ send Essence to Heaven, but they're far more likely to send Essence to the Ethereal Gods. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 13:56:36 -0600 From: shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Thoughts about Lilith (was: Thoughts about Plurals) William J. Keith wrote: > 3.) Been wondering... could Lilith create a Bright Daughter to begin with? > There are many reasons she might not have to date. If she could, then > perhaps she would, just once, just to spite Lucifer a little and show him > that she's still making her own decisions? That'd be a bizarre character I could see her doing this to pay off a favor to either Novalis, or more likely Eli. It would not be easy, but to get rid of a serious debt, I could see it. She would more then likely also want a favor (not geas) from the liliam latter, but nothing that would threaten a fall. Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 13:52:21 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword shadowcat wrote: > Not at all. My problem is with archangels, and people, that wear they > religion on their sleeve. Here, your problem is conflating real people and fictional characters. I also can't stand overly religious types. I certainly wouldn't invite Laurence or Khalid over for dinner. The point of making them zealously Christian or Muslim was not to make them nice people you as a player would like to have as friends. The point was to make them interesting as game characters. > It didn't feel so the way I read it. It felt more like if you were not a > muslim, you got treated like "a red headed step child." That's how it used to be, and still is to an extent. Khalid still makes no bones about preferring Islam, but I believe the S3 writeup implies that his organization is changing....a little. > I know the area is sticky, but I was using it as an example. I do see your > point, but does this mean that the big 3 are the only true religions in In > Nomine cannon, and all others are just feeding anti-heavenly forces? Not exactly, but the GMG goes into some detail about which religions are divine and which aren't. > That is both good and bad. Good in that fans won't have to buy multiple > books to keep up with Superiors views. Bad in that we are therefore stuck > with Kalid in a transitory form and not a more balanced and elohite form. I think it's reasonable for an Archangel's "transitory" stage to last for centuries.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:52:08 -0500 (CDT) From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword On Tue, 8 Aug 2000, David Edelstein wrote: > I think it's reasonable for an Archangel's "transitory" stage to last > for centuries.... In Nomine, 247th Ed., p. 172 (new text): "Khalid has recently started to become more accepting of his non-Muslim servitors, though he still prefers that his angels not be Catholic." - - EDG "Okay, remind me in about ten thousand sessions - that's when Khalid will be sane enough to grant your application for servitorhood." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 14:04:36 -0600 From: shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Weird Campaign lvl Artifact Charles Phipps wrote: > > > First, congrats on coming up with a truly unique and twisted artifact > >(whatever you've been using, share!). > > Thank you Thank you. Truth be told I owe this to musings on... > > * Eli actually being an unparrelled genius instead of the happy go lucky > fratboy he projects (then again many genius's have odd habits). > * The Rocky Horror Picture show Mansion (along with other B movie mansions I > once parrodied in a game involving a crazy scientist and his traps) > * What way would REALLY mess with the Celestial heirachy and be worth 100 > years of Eli tinkering. Oh crud. I just got the idea of Nikolah Tesla, was actualy a vessel for Eli, while he was playing mad scientist. :-P Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 13:58:22 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword shadowcat wrote: > Not to sound ignorant, but what is Ba'hai? I had never even seen the word > till I was ramming around Chicago, and it is mentioned as a divinely inspired > religion in the write up of Kalid. Could someone give me a summary of it? http://www.bahai.org/ - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 14:58:46 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword shadowcat wrote: > Not to sound ignorant, but what is Ba'hai? I had never even > seen the word till I was ramming around Chicago, and it is > mentioned as a divinely inspired religion in the write up of > Kalid. Could someone give me a summary of it? Ba'hai is a religion founded in 1863, in Persia if I recall correctly. The founder is known as Bahaullah (sp??) and is considered the most recent prophet God has annointed on Earth. Since it is a central tenent of Islam that Muhammed was the last prophet, this idea did not go over well in Persia, and Ba'hai has been roundly persecuted in the Mid-East ever since. Ba'hai believes that God sends a widely-spaced sequence of prophets to enlighten humanity -- rather as Islam believes, but without the same stop-point. Their list of prophets includes Buddha, Krishna, and Zoroaster/Zarathustra, as well as Jesus, Muhammed, Moses, and Abraham. It is this wide-ranging list of prophets that suits it to IN. That's about as much as I know. To start Web-surfing on the subject, see: http://www.religioustolerance.org/bahai.htm Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 14:25:16 -0600 From: shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword David Edelstein wrote: > > shadowcat wrote: > > Not at all. My problem is with archangels, and people, that wear they > > religion on their sleeve. > > Here, your problem is conflating real people and fictional characters. I > also can't stand overly religious types. I certainly wouldn't invite > Laurence or Khalid over for dinner. The point of making them zealously > Christian or Muslim was not to make them nice people you as a player > would like to have as friends. The point was to make them interesting as > game characters. All right I can see that. I just prefer in my campaign to tone them down. If I am running games at Cons though I run them as written in cannon, if not more vicious depending on the scenario. My campaign is not very cannon though. I use the archdean as a superior in my game, because she is perfect for one of my NPC that is in it. > > It didn't feel so the way I read it. It felt more like if you were not a > > muslim, you got treated like "a red headed step child." > > That's how it used to be, and still is to an extent. Khalid still makes > no bones about preferring Islam, but I believe the S3 writeup implies > that his organization is changing....a little. But you still have to pull more then twice you weight if you are a non-muslim, just to get favorable recognition. > > I know the area is sticky, but I was using it as an example. I do see your > > point, but does this mean that the big 3 are the only true religions in In > > Nomine cannon, and all others are just feeding anti-heavenly forces? > > Not exactly, but the GMG goes into some detail about which religions are > divine and which aren't. I'll have to take a look at it and see. > > That is both good and bad. Good in that fans won't have to buy multiple > > books to keep up with Superiors views. Bad in that we are therefore stuck > > with Kalid in a transitory form and not a more balanced and elohite form. > > I think it's reasonable for an Archangel's "transitory" stage to last > for centuries.... Okay. That sounds right. As has been pointed out I can run my game how ever I wish, but it still feels a little odd to me to have the only Muslim Superior be so tilted. Shadowcat P.S. David will you be at Gen-con this weekend? If so I would love to by you a drink and talk this over in person. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 14:29:02 -0600 From: shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword Thank you both Earl and David for the web address I will look at them later, when I have the chance. John ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 15:20:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner-Thornber Subject: Re: IN> Faith and The Sword > shadowcat wrote: > > Not at all. My problem is with archangels, and people, that wear they > > religion on their sleeve. > > Here, your problem is conflating real people and fictional characters. I > also can't stand overly religious types. I certainly wouldn't invite > Laurence or Khalid over for dinner. The point of making them zealously > Christian or Muslim was not to make them nice people you as a player > would like to have as friends. The point was to make them interesting as > game characters. > This seems also to be confusing zealotry with piety. There's a major difference. Laurence and Khalid are both devout to their religions: they actively practice the tenants and the laws therein to the best of their abilities. They follow the laws and codes of morality as written in their religious codes. As such, Khalid will follow the Pillars of Islam and will believe in Allah is good, is wise, and above all else. Laurence will take Communion on the Christian Sabbath, he will believe in the goodness and purity of Saints, and he will believe absolutely that Christ was Messiah. They may want you to believe as they do, or may want you to understand God the way they do, but that doesn't mean they're going around holding people's heads down toilets and flushing while screaming about the Koran or the Bible. Their faith does not make them jerks, which is where people are getting confused. The image people seem to have in mind are of religious zealots, pounding their pulpits, saying that if you don't buh-leeve in Jayzus today then you're going to burn in hell. This is confusing the Archangel of Faith and the Archangel of the Sword with demons of Malphas, who really do what to wear their faith on their sleeve, get you to confuse zealotry with faith, and really, earnestly, want you to believe in their Jayzus so that, when you die, you'll join them in a little Heaven of their own. There is a major difference. My advice is to not confuse them both here and in RL. > That's how it used to be, and still is to an extent. Khalid still makes > no bones about preferring Islam, but I believe the S3 writeup implies > that his organization is changing....a little. > Islam does recognize the religions that were its progenitors. There are Christians and Jews living peacefully in Arab lands, practicing their faiths. Islam does not prosletyze, and it has not forced conversions since it crossed the North of Africa (if you don't count the Taliban -- who are not really Moslems, by all accounts.) Islam does preach that there is greatness in the other religions as well, and that Christ was one of many Prophets, to stand along side in honor of the Jewish Prophets. There's maybe a little confusion between Islamic Fundamentalists, who are vocal but very much in the minority, and normal, every day Sunni and Shiite Moslems. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner-Thornber -- http://www.nodonut.com/zenith "If you feel in your heart of hearts that you plan on voting for George W. Bush, I have a suggestion. Draw yourself a nice, hot bath. Bring the television into the room. And then DRAG IT INTO THE TUB WITH YOU!" - Lewis Black, The Daily Show ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1764 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.