From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Aug 11 17:51:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06297 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:51:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA09253 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:48:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:48:32 -0500 Message-Id: <200008112248.RAA09253@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1770 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, August 11 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1770 In this digest: Re: IN> The Changing of Words IN> Short Story: Eli Must Die Re: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover (was: Game) Re: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover Re: IN> Redeemed Furfur Re: IN> The Changing of Words Re: IN> Grigori Experience Re: IN> Redeemed Furfur Re: IN> Redeemed Furfur Re: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover Re: IN> Short Story: Eli Must Die Re: IN>Soulmates Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Bright Question. Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? IN> Soul mates Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Reward for Redeeming a Demon? (and vice versa) Fwd: Re: IN> Re: Paganism in IN Fwd: e: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover (was: Game) Re: IN> Lilith? IN> Adam, Prince of somethingorother (Re: Lilith?) Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: Fwd: Re: IN> Re: Paganism in IN Re: IN> Adam, Prince of somethingorother (Re: Lilith?) Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Adam, Prince of somethingorother (Re: Lilith?) Re: IN> Adam, Prince of somethingorother (Re: Lilith?) IN> Sort of off-topic gritty little bits of list administrivia ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 12:10:32 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Changing of Words As I recall the GMG, it's almost impossible for a Word-Bound to WANT to change Words, and being stripped of a Word often looks worse that death to them. So your story fits well, though we have to assume that Malakite did a lot of fancy talking to a very discouraged Ophanite, to get it to even petition for a change. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:32:39 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: IN> Short Story: Eli Must Die What's Eli doing these days? Running for his life, that's what. Archangels who have forgotten that they are Archangels seldom can do much more than that... http://www.phargle.com/innomine.html Ben ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 12:06:01 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover (was: Game) From: "Keith Bolland" > > I think the end result would make Good Omens resemble something by Robert > Jordan[1] in terms of sheer expansive enjoyability. He and Neil tried to do a sequel, but they just couldn't make it work. After narrowly averting the Apocalypse, what else can you do? I still would have liked to have seen the Demon of Backmasking make his appearance, though.* *Pterry spoke about the attempted sequel during this year's Aggiecon - one of the characters was to have been the demon in charge of recording backwards messages on heavy metal albums. Unfortunately, thanks to demons not being all that creative, he never put anything really out there on them: "Wear leather jackets" was about as bad as it got. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 12:06:56 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover From: "Marc Bowden" > > Since we're in the dark place, does CMOTD work for the Archangel > Marc, or Vapula, or....? The Dibblers are a family of Soldiers of Mammon. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:17:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Redeemed Furfur - --- lizard wrote: > I've been lurking on this list for some time now; I'll be running an > IN campaign soon, which features an extremely modified version of the > Demon Prince of Rock and Roll..the clincher is, after Furfur makes > Prince, some time later he'll be Redeemed..trouble is, I can't think > of any good Words for a Redeemed(and Archangelic) Furfur; the closest > thing I can come to is AA of Hardcore, but I'm not good at making > Attunements and I'm not entirely sure what a Divine Hardcore would > mean. Any help people? Please? As far as alternate Words, "Steadfastness" immediately comes to mind. The rest will take more time. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "If all the world's a stage, where does the audience sit?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 12:19:30 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> The Changing of Words From: "EDG" > > This story sort of embodies that. Incredible work! Thank you for posting it... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:20:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Grigori Experience - --- Daedalus3D@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone have any experiences playing Grigori? > I know they only came out a month ago in GURPS IN, but has anyone > tried using them in a game yet? Does GURPS IN list the Grigori Resonance? How about Choir Attunements for the various Superiors? The less work we have to do, the better. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "If all the world's a stage, where does the audience sit?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:22:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Redeemed Furfur - --- Jo Hart wrote: > > >And, as I recall, Furfur is a Calabite, so would Redeem as an > >Ophanite, for which Zeal is a very natural Word. Motion seconded! ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "If all the world's a stage, where does the audience sit?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 13:31:08 EDT From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Redeemed Furfur >Is it necessary for Furfur to /have/ a Word? While Moe Lane gives an >interesting rationale for his Oops superiors having Words (God granting >them directly, that is), I have severe doubts that the Seraphim Council >would trust a Redeemed ex-Demon Prince enough to give him a Word anytime >close to when he Redeems. On the other hand, giving a redeemed ex-Prince a Word means that they'll be tied more to Heaven and be in charge of promoting that word and in more of a supervisory position than an active one. I see active celestials as being more likely to Redeem/Fall, so it may be considered better to do the equivalent of giving them a desk job for a while. IMO, a recently redeemed angel (regardless of power) would not be put in an active situation for quite some time after redeeming. I would probably put a bare minimum of 1 year in Heaven, with 5 years being considered a short time, and the norm being a couple dozen years. Corporeal duty can wait, if it is likely to cause a yo-yo. Sam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 12:51:26 -0500 (CDT) From: "Derek K." Subject: Re: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover Can I interested you in some Essence? Onna stick? Only slightly corrupted. I've got a lovely artifact here, guarenteed to imprison any celestial you encounter for ... No, no, no, it's supposed to do that. Ohhh. Looks painful sir. Care for a Rat-onna-stick? Half price, and I'm cutting me throat.... Oh dear. It's Marc. I've got to be going. Cheers, Derek K. Calabite of Networks, In service to Kobal. On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, Prodigal wrote: >From: "Marc Bowden" >> >> Since we're in the dark place, does CMOTD work for the Archangel >> Marc, or Vapula, or....? > >The Dibblers are a family of Soldiers of Mammon. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:13:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Short Story: Eli Must Die On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, ben wrote: > What's Eli doing these days? Running for his life, that's what. Archangels > who have forgotten that they are Archangels seldom can do much more than > that... > > http://www.phargle.com/innomine.html Ooo, never even thought of interpreting Eli's 'wiped memories' quite like that... nasty ideas forming... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! Q: How many roleplayers does it A: 3d6 take to change a light bulb? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 11:11:38 +0000 From: Charles E Smith Subject: Re: IN>Soulmates So I've been wondering how the concept of Soulmates would work in In Nomine. Would Destiny work on bringing Soulmates together, while Fate works on dividing them forever? What would Andrealphus, obsessed with destroying True Love at every turn, do about Soulmates? What would Soulmates mean to The War? Anyone have any thoughts on this?<<< I would think that Andrealphus would would actually encourage Soulmates to come together. It would make it easier for him to determine who would be the most romantic. Then his Servitors could move in, tempt one or both Soulmates into infidelity, and possibly break them up. I'm sure Kronos would love it. I think that Baal would be rather indifferent, unless the Soulmates were Destined to somehow help humanity avoid destruction (i.e. if one of the Soulmates was to be a world leader and his/her Soulmate would help them aid humanity). I think Michael would be in agreement with Baal on this one. On the other hand, I would think that Novalis and Zadkiel would definitely be trying to bring Soulmates together. David might bring Soulmates together as well (his whole unification idea). ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:46:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? At 1:27 PM -0500 8/10/00, EDG wrote: >I don't remember, so I ask: does Lilith have a Heart? Does any Superior? Fnord. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:47:22 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Bright Question. At 2:45 PM -0400 8/10/00, William J. Keith wrote: >>I remember hearing someone (I think Beth) mention something about Bright >>Lilim being able to resonate photographs. [...] >For example, if the subject has a chronic illness, and the Lilim detects >this Need, then finds and heals him in some way, she's fulfilled a Need and >has the Geas-hook. On the other hand, if he'd just had a bout of the flu >that day, she might detect the Need to be healed, but if he's over it by >the time she finds him there's no Need to fulfill. Right -- if the Need isn't present in the actual person, no hooks available. The snapshot is, indeed, a snapshot... - --Beth, typing w/a baby (iolanthe) on her chest. Vapitalizatoin & spelling difficult, typing w/1 hand & supporting baby w/other. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:59:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? At 10:18 PM -0700 8/10/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >*BTW, the earlier argument about whether she could >still have human children is moot, I think. Presuming >that Lilith even ovulates, human females have only a >limited amount of eggs. She'd have run out millenia >ago. You presume she ovulates. Believe me, if endowed with Superior powers, the _first_ thing I'd do would be to STOP that annoying little trait... (And if you presume she ran out before she got promoted, well, that still has the assumption that she hasn't created more vessels for herself, or used a Song of Entropy, or Healing, or whatever else might be available...) > Besides, if a 15 Force human wasn't good enough >for her, well... Hey, the number of Forces don't matter -- a jerk's a jerk. (To hear her tell it.) I mean, consider normal males -- some of the allegedly intelligent ones can be so... Well, nevermind. >Now, if _Adam_ had become a Prince, I could see >offspring ensuing. > >Hmm. :) Ooooo, I like that Hmm. - --Beth, typing w/a baby (iolanthe) on her chest. Vapitalizatoin & spelling difficult, typing w/1 hand & supporting baby w/other. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:58:15 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "Elizabeth McCoy" > > Hey, the number of Forces don't matter -- a jerk's > a jerk. (To hear her tell it.) I mean, consider > normal males -- some of the allegedly intelligent > ones can be so... Well, nevermind. That would be from dealing with women, of course. ;p (I know I'm a dead man, but sometimes you gotta...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:07:06 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > You presume she ovulates. Believe me, if endowed with > Superior powers, the _first_ thing I'd do would be > to STOP that annoying little trait... (And if you > presume she ran out before she got promoted, well, > that still has the assumption that she hasn't created > more vessels for herself, or used a Song of Entropy, > or Healing, or whatever else might be available...) Actually, in literature and myth, demons, angels, and gods often have some fairly pedestrian limits on their powers. It would not be completely outside the realm of possibility that Lilith might be capable of immolating any puny mortal with a glance, traveling anywhere in the Symphony at will, creating Lilim, and doing all the other things Superiors can do, yet not be capable of circumventing her own essentially human nature. > Hey, the number of Forces don't matter -- a jerk's > a jerk. (To hear her tell it.) I mean, consider > normal males -- some of the allegedly intelligent > ones can be so... Well, nevermind. That's Lilith's version, of course. Without hearing Adam's side of the story, who's to know if he was really a "jerk," or if Lilith just threw a tantrum like a spoiled brat upon learning that she wasn't the Queen of all creation, and was expected to follow God's laws like everyone else, and all the subsequent proto-feminist rhetoric about "rebelling against being enslaved to a man" is just her own justification after the fact. (Remember, the main book says that Lilith LIES....) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:51:52 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Soul mates >You know the theory: Some say that human souls are in fact, only half a >soul, and that the whole point of life for half-souls is to search for one's >own soulmate and join with them, body and soul. This is part of what great >romances are all about. Yes indeed and something no doubt Blandine heartily approves of....not to mention Novalis and most Cherubs. Union with the Divine as part of love also would appeal naturally to Laurence in my mind as well. Yves of course loves destinys of love...he's like Albert Einstein in IQ. Kronos considers Soul mates a double edged sword, Beleth hates them with a deep and abiding passion and does her best to make their lives unpleasant, while the rest of the Princes really don't care (though Kobal loves the good joke on them and Andre I will describe below....) >So I've been wondering how the concept of Soulmates would work in In Nomine. >Would Destiny work on bringing Soulmates together, while Fate works on >dividing them forever? What would Andrealphus, obsessed with destroying >True Love at every turn, do about Soulmates? What would Soulmates mean to >The War? Andre in my mind does his best to destroy soul mates and you can ALWAYS depend on being forgiven of virtually anything you've done wrong or screwed up on by permenantly breaking up soul mates, a extra force if you can seduce one or both and send them to their fate, a rite just for killing them dramatically or sending one. A distinction maybe even if it's a truly epic romance (Romeo and Juliet/The lovers from Dante's Inferno). It's my opinion Andre got burned in a romance in Heaven or couldn't find his own soulmate so that's why he's indulging instead in the more carnal delights over the love issue. It's up to him in his opinion thus to get true loves to sleep around and forsake their love for more base pleasures.. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:38:43 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > >Moe wrote: > > Besides, if a 15 Force human wasn't good enough > >for her, well... > Elizabeth McCoy responded: > Hey, the number of Forces don't matter -- a jerk's > a jerk. (To hear her tell it.) I mean, consider > normal males -- some of the allegedly intelligent > ones can be so... Well, nevermind. > >More from Moe Lane: > >Now, if _Adam_ had become a Prince, I could see > >offspring ensuing. [snip much hmmm-ing and thoughtful looks] Adding DP status to Adam wouldn't change anything -- he would still be a jerk, only now he would be a jerk with power -- Tim Allen in DP drag, so to speak, UNLESS he has mellowed and learned a thing or two down the years. Then, if he [Adam] got with the program, I could possibly see her becoming interested. However, I doubt Hell is the place to gain enlightenment and insight into how to relate well to others *g*. Just call it a hunch of mine. take care and be well, Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- Strange blood, howl again, for now we know to well - Better a friend on paths unknown, than to be alone in hell! "Strange Blood" A Wolfrider's Reflection, by various artists ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:42:12 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > Adding DP status to Adam wouldn't change anything -- he would still be a > jerk, only now he would be a jerk with power -- Tim Allen in DP drag, so We are assuming without reason that Adam is a jerk. Our reason for doing so? The word of a Demon Princess. ... ... > Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven Ben ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:50:48 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "ben" > > We are assuming without reason that Adam is a jerk. > > Our reason for doing so? The word of a Demon Princess. It jibes with his behavior after the whole apple thing, though... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 14:54:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - --- ben wrote: > We are assuming without reason that Adam is a jerk. > Our reason for doing so? The word of a Demon Princess. Let us not forget the difference between a "jerk" and a "stand-up guy" in real life. If you like the fellow, he's a stand-up guy. If you don't, he's a jerk. Alpha males behave pretty much the same way all over -- jerkitude is mainly a matter of perspective. The only information Lilith ever gave on Adam is her perspective. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "If all the world's a stage, where does the audience sit?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 14:58:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - --- Prodigal wrote: > It jibes with his behavior after the whole apple thing, though... Classic misconception here; Adam didn't blame Eve for Humanity's Fall. He blamed God. "...it was the woman that YOU gave me..." (emphasis mine) Don't take my word for it. Check out Genesis. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "If all the world's a stage, where does the audience sit?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:01:47 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > > Our reason for doing so? The word of a Demon Princess. > > It jibes with his behavior after the whole apple thing, though... I am unaware of any In Nomine canonical accounting of Adam's behavior during or after the Eden Experiment except that he and Eve were released into the world. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:03:14 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "Michael Walton" > > > It jibes with his behavior after the whole apple thing, though... > > Classic misconception here; Adam didn't blame Eve for Humanity's > Fall. He blamed God. > "...it was the woman that YOU gave me..." (emphasis mine) > Don't take my word for it. Check out Genesis. It's still a case of Adam refusing to accept any of the blame. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:14:57 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prodigal" To: Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 5:03 PM Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > From: "Michael Walton" > > > > > It jibes with his behavior after the whole apple thing, though... > > > > Classic misconception here; Adam didn't blame Eve for Humanity's > > Fall. He blamed God. > > "...it was the woman that YOU gave me..." (emphasis mine) > > Don't take my word for it. Check out Genesis. > > It's still a case of Adam refusing to accept any of the blame. Which then begs the question, does Adam *deserve* the blame? Or does the person who rigged the test to fail deserve the blame? Would there have been any need for blame if not for Lucifer's sabotage? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? It is not "jerkitude" to refuse to accept the blame if it's not actually yours, and the philosophy on whether or not it was actually Adam's fault can be argued all day. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:19:30 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "Charles Glasgow" > > > > > > Classic misconception here; Adam didn't blame Eve for Humanity's > > > Fall. He blamed God. > > > "...it was the woman that YOU gave me..." (emphasis mine) > > > Don't take my word for it. Check out Genesis. > > > > It's still a case of Adam refusing to accept any of the blame. > > Which then begs the question, does Adam *deserve* the blame? Or does the > person who rigged the test to fail deserve the blame? Would there have > been any need for blame if not for Lucifer's sabotage? Adam wasn't trying to blame Lucifer. Depending on exactly how you choose to read the verse you quoted, he was either blaming Eve, or YHWH. But we have wandered far afield of the topic of the IN list, so I'll shut up now. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:37:57 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Reward for Redeeming a Demon? (and vice versa) At 6:06 AM -0700 8/11/00, Michael Walton wrote: >--- Charles Phipps wrote: >> Do different Superiors reward differently for corrupting/redeeming >> Celestials and if so by how much? What is the value in the opinion of >> a Superior in bringing a demon over? > > Different Superiors would definitely reward differently. Here's my >take on it. > >*Eli would be the most unpredictable -- there's no telling what he'd >do, you only know that it would be good for you (though it might be a >mixed blessing). http://orleans.pave-france.org/~maya/week3/d3/log32a1.html Blue hair. Oiy. >*Andrealphus would probably grant a Distinction -- especially if the >angel was turned by means of seduction. Indeed, merely seducing an angel is worth a Distinction, so seducing one to the dark side would almost certainly bump one up a rank! And probably get both parties some _personal_ Princely attention, which might be construed as a reward or a punishment, depending on how one feels about wandering about in a glaze afterwards. Possibly with a verse of "Banned from Argo" floating around in the back of one's mind. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:37:54 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> Re: Paganism in IN >From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:25:19 -0500 >To: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Admin request of type /^\s*w h i c h \s+\S+\s*$/i at line 5 >Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:34:01 -0500 >From: David Edelstein >Subject: Re: IN> Re: Paganism in IN > >Marc Bowden wrote: >> Interesting isn't it, that certain religions are sacred cows no one >> dares speak badly about, > >Which ones? > >> and some are just fair game for anyone with a >> grudge to unload on? > >Which ones? > >-David > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:37:50 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: e: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover (was: Game) (When posting from a non-s u b scribed address, remember to join in_nomine_posters-l ...) >From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 07:15:06 -0500 >To: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from ["Charles Glasgow" ] >From: "Charles Glasgow" >Subject: Re: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover (was: Game) >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 07:15:09 -0500 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Marc Bowden" >To: >Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 7:08 AM >Subject: Re: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover (was: Game) > > >> --On Friday, August 11, 2000 6:58 AM -0500 Charles Glasgow >> wrote: > >> >> --On Friday, August 11, 2000 11:22 PM +1200 Keith Bolland >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > [1] Not intending to pick a fight with any Jordan fans here >> >> > present. >> > >> >> Hal? >> > >> > Michael? > >> John! > >Marsha! > >-- >Chuckg > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:37:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? At 4:07 PM -0500 8/11/00, David Edelstein wrote: >(Remember, the main book says that Lilith LIES....) But that she thinks of it as "changing her mind," which puts an interesting spin on that. Hm. Perhaps that should go back to the "Obi-wan as Balseraph" thread -- sure, she lies. But there's these _annoying_ nuggets of truth in there. (Why do I say "annoying"? Because to give someone the truth "from a certain point of view" is both more satisfying (as the PC receiving it) and more "beat one's head against the wall how could I have _missed_ that" enigmatic annoying...) Or, to go back to MY PERSONAL CORNER OF THE MULITVERSE, I'd rather have a NPC who was enigmatic and made me (as PC) or my PCs (if GMing) run around in circles wondering whether or not to trust what was said, trust it to the letter with the maximum of bad faith, trust it to the spirit but _not_ the letter, leap blindly without a safety net, try to have a safety net to leap over, make a deal with someone else (and forever wonder if they failed a test of faith that could have netted them rewards), or, in general, consider curling up in the corner twitching from all the crossconnections and possibilities. Why? Because that _says_ something about a character. That _builds_ character in tests of fire. Just figuring, "Hey, Prince, evil, lies" -- boooooooooooring. Especially when getting into a redemption plotline. (Who do you trust, who do you trust?) - --Beth, typing w/a baby (iolanthe) on her chest. Vapitalizatoin & spelling difficult, typing w/1 hand & supporting baby w/other. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:37:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Adam, Prince of somethingorother (Re: Lilith?) At 4:38 PM -0500 8/11/00, Uncle Wolf wrote: [...] >Adding DP status to Adam wouldn't change anything -- he would still be a >jerk, only now he would be a jerk with power Now, now, I'm thinking a little rearrrrrrANgement here. Obedient little Lilith stays. Adam, unsatisfied, gives Heaven the finger and goes to sow his wild oats. God makes some other guy. (Elvis! Nononononono. ) Later, Lucy(fur) shows up and waggles her snake-hips at Lilith's First Husband (c'mon, you just know Bal/Seraph hips have got to be double-jointed and slinky) and presto! Prince of Freedom, rightchere! Or maybe Prince of Wild Oats, you never know. Season to taste. (Okay, let's get even _more_ permuted here. Lilith leaves. Adam stays. Instead of using docile Forces from Adam as Eve's seed-Forces, God tries making another woman from scratch. For whatever reason (maybe Adam _is_ booooring, or a jerk, or rolls over and falls asleep, or secretly pining for one of those angels who was around, or whatever), Eve heads off as well. Eve and Lilith exchange high-fives. Lucifer finds himself having to get both of them in a menage a'trois... (or however that's spelled.) Keep seasoning to taste. Ooooor... Lilith jumps ship. Adam gets bored with wifey #2 (*), and goes after #1 (with a bunch of flowers from the garden to apologize)... Lucifer is so busy laughing at this (possibly with Kobal's help at this time) that the Fall is derailed for a while... Angels sit around and watch the soap opera. Beth gets weird.) (* I just realized -- Disney has _got_ to be under the influence of Hell. I mean, all these heroines who listen to the cute little animals, it's obviously setting kids up to pay attention when a snake tells them to do something...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:23:36 -0400 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > Return-Path: tomtimb@ionet.net > > Elizabeth McCoy responded: > > Hey, the number of Forces don't matter -- a jerk's > > a jerk. (To hear her tell it.) I mean, consider > > normal males -- some of the allegedly intelligent > > ones can be so... Well, nevermind. > > > > >More from Moe Lane: > > >Now, if _Adam_ had become a Prince, I could see > > >offspring ensuing. > > Adding DP status to Adam wouldn't change anything -- he would still be a > jerk, only now he would be a jerk with power -- Tim Allen in DP drag, so > to speak, UNLESS he has mellowed and learned a thing or two down the > years. Then, if he [Adam] got with the program, I could possibly see her > becoming interested. However, I doubt Hell is the place to gain > enlightenment and insight into how to relate well to others *g*. Just > call it a hunch of mine. Or maybe Lilith is just a little jealous that she didn't get the guy, but her best friend did, and she wants to rain on their parade. or She never really got over Adam, who is her soulmate (to merge 2 threads), realizing eve was just gods replacement. Or any of a dozen other possible reasons. What really happened in the garden is a good question. And lilith's word (or even God's/Yves', if it would show the divine in a negative light) is not the most trustworthy here. Too bad Luciefer is no longer a Seraph; his honest view on what happened in the experiment would be enlightening. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:34:03 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? Prodigal wrote: > It jibes with his behavior after the whole apple thing, though... What was his behavior after the whole apple thing? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:35:05 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? Prodigal wrote: > It's still a case of Adam refusing to accept any of the blame. Showing that he was imperfect too. Doesn't mean that Lilith was blameless, or that Adam was a bad guy. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:36:33 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: IN> Re: Paganism in IN Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > >From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:25:19 -0500 > >To: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Admin request of type /^\s*w h i c h \s+\S+\s*$/i at line 5 ?? My e-mail bounced because I typed "which" at the beginning of a line? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:35:10 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Adam, Prince of somethingorother (Re: Lilith?) From: "Elizabeth McCoy" > > (Okay, let's get even _more_ permuted here. Lilith leaves. Adam > stays. Instead of using docile Forces from > Adam as Eve's seed-Forces, God tries making another woman from > scratch. Some legends claim that God did exactly this, but that Adam was too horrified by the sight of Wife #2's innards (since God made her skin and hair after everything else was created*) to be able to stay with her. According to those, Eve is Wife #3. *I can't entirely blame him if this is the case - after all, seeing a person's intestines can't be terribly conducive to romance... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:47:49 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > But that she thinks of it as "changing her mind," which puts an > interesting spin on that. Sure, it means she doesn't think of herself as a liar. Neither do Balseraphs. ;) > Why? Because that _says_ something about a character. That _builds_ > character in tests of fire. Just figuring, "Hey, Prince, evil, lies" -- > boooooooooooring. I didn't say Lilith *always* lies. But the flip side of not portraying her as Evil Incarnate is not portraying her as Little Miss Misunderstood. "She could've been a good guy, if only she hadn't been done wrong by a man!" I find that angle boring, overdone, and thoroughly uncredible. Lilith is supremely selfish, and has been from the beginning -- no other way could she have become a Demon Princess (or wanted to). Does that make her evil? Gets back to the whole "selfish ?= evil" question. But she's NOT an innocent victim of circumstances who made the only choice she thought was available to her. She may say that, she may tell herself that, she may have convinced herself that that's the truth....but she still chose selfishness and Lucifer over God. We have only her word that Adam was a jerk. And even if he was, blaming a jerk for rebelling against God and choosing to side with the forces of Darkness makes her far more culpable, and guilty of refusing to accept responsibility, than Adam's "It was HER fault!" attempt at transferral of blame. I think Lilith has the potential to be interesting because she's probably the only DP who really doesn't think of herself as "bad." (All the others may rationalize their badness -- maybe no one but Saminga actually thinks of themselves as truly "evil" -- but they at least know what side they're on, and why, and don't pretend otherwise.) But anyone else who makes the mistake of sympathizing with Lilith is forgetting 20,000+ years of conscious, deliberate alliance with Lucifer and conspiracy against God, Heaven, and humanity. She ain't no victim. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:55:46 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? At 2:58 PM -0700 8/11/00, Michael Walton wrote: >--- Prodigal wrote: >> It jibes with his behavior after the whole apple thing, though... > > Classic misconception here; Adam didn't blame Eve for Humanity's >Fall. He blamed God. > "...it was the woman that YOU gave me..." (emphasis mine) > Don't take my word for it. Check out Genesis. Whereupon Eve whimpered and pointed fingers at the snake. Whereupon God kicked the snake, either validating the irresponsibility of the humans (ooo, the blame game! lawsuit, lawsuit!) OR accepting that He screwed up when He didn't give His humans enough brains to ensure that they didn't listen to the local wildlife when it told them to go against His commands. YMMV. (I was just reading that part, actually. Highly amusing.) Going _totally_ from that section, it was all the snake's idea, for whatever reason -- no mention of the Lightbringer in any guise. To haul it kicking and screaming back to next-door-to-InNomine-land, that account _does_ suggest* that _either_ Adam wasn't entirely with it in the brains department, despite his presumed 10 Intelligence (or, to quote an anime trailer, "A few OAVs short of a series"), _or_ he was somewhat lacking in the take-responsibility-for-my-own- actions department (a measure of jerkitude).** (*at least to those of us with petty little minds. O:p ) (**Did she hold him down and stuff it into his mouth? Or, for that momtouch, "If everyone else were jumping off a cliff, would you do it too?") If you want to read a lot of things into the section that aren't really there, you could go to... drat, what was that CD that Maya sent me... Well, anyway, there's a nice section in the musical where Eve's just chowed down on the fixings of All-American-Pie, and is bouncing up and down about how COOL it is to Know Things, and Adam is wibbling about how she's just done something irrevocable, and then God shows up -- and says Eve will have to leave, but Adam can stay, because he didn't have any. And Adam angsts a little and then also eats of the fruit because he loves Eve and doesn't want to be parted from her. (And then God throws a tantrum, IIRC. C'est la musical.) (And now a yank, _into_ IN-land, maybe...) All of which is a bit up in the air, because it's never been said exactly what Ophis (or whoever) _did_ that botched the experiment. It could have been something as uncaring of Adam and Eve's free will as simply saying, "You know, you two have a good thing going here -- outside this garden, there's hunger and want and pain and dying in childbirth and a lot of other problems. So you two, you're good kids, keep it up, stay safe in here." I mean, what do you do to that? Stick your fingers in your ears when the angel starts talking and go "LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA"? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:50:15 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Adam, Prince of somethingorother (Re: Lilith?) Prodigal wrote: > Some legends claim that God did exactly this, but that Adam was too > horrified by the sight of Wife #2's innards (since God made her skin and > hair after everything else was created*) to be able to stay with her. > According to those, Eve is Wife #3. That appeared in an issue of "Sandman," but I suspect that "legend" may have been invented by Gaiman. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:47:22 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Adam, Prince of somethingorother (Re: Lilith?) From: "David Edelstein" > > That appeared in an issue of "Sandman," but I suspect that "legend" may > have been invented by Gaiman. I couldn't remember where I'd read that. Thank you! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:03:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Sort of off-topic gritty little bits of list administrivia At 5:36 PM -0500 8/11/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> >> >From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >> >Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:25:19 -0500 >> >To: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >> >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Admin request of type /^\s*w h i c h \s+\S+\s*$/i at line 5 > >?? My e-mail bounced because I typed "which" at the beginning of a line? Yes -- it's one of those little keywords that apparently gets parsed as an attempt to invoke admin-level commands. I often angst over whether to turn off that "bounce to admin" feature. And then I get several people sending their u n s u b s c r i b e (or worse, s u b s c r i b e) commands to the list directly, and grumble around trying to decide what happens more. For the record, getting the u n/s u b s c r i b e commands sent to the list happens more, slightly, from what I can tell. I just wish I could tell it to _only_ bounce those two keywords, and assume any others weren't real. O:p - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1770 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.