From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Aug 11 22:38:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17241 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:38:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id WAA19214 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:35:58 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:35:58 -0500 Message-Id: <200008120335.WAA19214@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1771 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, August 11 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1771 In this digest: Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Adam, Prince of somethingorother (Re: Lilith?) Re: IN> Adam, Prince of somethingorother (Re: Lilith?) Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover Re: IN> Adam, Prince of somethingorother (Re: Lilith?) Re: IN> Redeemed Furfur Re: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover (was: Game) Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover Re: IN> Short Story: Eli Must Die Re: IN> Redeemed Furfur Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Adam, Prince of somethingorother (Re: Lilith?) Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? IN> INC Update, Week of 8/13 Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? IN> Balseraphs of Fate & Photgraphs (WAS: Bright Question.) Re: IN> INC Update, Week of 8/13 IN> AA of Zeal IN> The Whole Lilith thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:52:45 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "David Edelstein" > > But anyone > else who makes the mistake of sympathizing with Lilith is forgetting > 20,000+ years of conscious, deliberate alliance with Lucifer and > conspiracy against God, Heaven, and humanity. Or 20,000+ years of trying to avoid being destroyed by the forces of both Heaven and the more hostile parts of Hell. A total lack of sympathy is as huge a mistake as you claim sympathy is. > She ain't no victim. She could be. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:15:09 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Adam, Prince of somethingorother (Re: Lilith?) At 5:50 PM -0500 8/11/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Prodigal wrote: >> Some legends claim that God did exactly this, but that Adam was too >> horrified by the sight of Wife #2's innards (since God made her skin and >> hair after everything else was created*) to be able to stay with her. >> According to those, Eve is Wife #3. > >That appeared in an issue of "Sandman," but I suspect that "legend" may >have been invented by Gaiman. Nope. At least, not according to: _Hebrew Myths: The Book of Genesis_ by Robert Graves and Rahael Patai. Copyright 1963, 1964, First McGraw-Hill Paperbacks version printed 1966. ISBN 07-024125-2 . Chapter 10, Adam's Helpmeets: "(f) Undismayed by His failure to give Adam a suitable helpmeet, God tried again, and let him watch while he built up a woman's anatomy: using bones, tissues, muscles, blood and glandular secretions, then covering the whole with skin and adding tufts of hair in places. The sight caused Adam such disgust that even when this woman, the First Eve, stood there in her full beauty, he felt an invincible repugnance. God knew that He had failed once more, and took the First Eve away. Where she went, nobody knows for certain." The footnote for this paragraph says: "Gen. Rab. 158, 163-64; Mid. Abkir 133, 135; Abot diR. Nathan 24; B Sanhedrin 39a." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:03:00 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Adam, Prince of somethingorother (Re: Lilith?) From: "Elizabeth McCoy" > > God knew that He had failed once more, and took the First Eve away. > Where she went, nobody knows for certain." So now we know how Eve, Archangel of Women came into being. ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:04:33 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prodigal" To: Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 5:52 PM Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > From: "David Edelstein" > > > > But anyone else who makes the mistake of sympathizing with Lilith is forgetting > > 20,000+ years of conscious, deliberate alliance with Lucifer and > > conspiracy against God, Heaven, and humanity. > Or 20,000+ years of trying to avoid being destroyed by the forces of both > Heaven and the more hostile parts of Hell. Errrr... who was it who created the first Tethers that allowed the forces of Hell to have access to Earth in the first place? Lilith. She *chose* to let Lucifer's legions out of the box they were locked in. If she'd just stayed on Earth doing her selfish little trip, they'd have found it nigh-impossible to get to her. Instead, she turns her demon pals loose on Adam's descendants to work off a grudge vs. him, them, and God. > A total lack of sympathy is as huge a mistake as you claim sympathy is. She picked a side, *not* under duress, and with full knowledge beforehand of the nature and consequences of her action. Fine. She wants to declare herself the enemy, she'll be treated as such. Welcome to the War, Lilith, and you picked your side. > > She ain't no victim. > > She could be. Only if you rewrite a whole lot of IN history. Which you can conceivably do -- in your campaign, if not in ours. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 11:09:00 +1200 (NZST) From: Keith Bolland Subject: Re: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, Marc Bowden wrote: > Since we're in the dark place, does CMOTD work for the Archangel > Marc, or Vapula, or....? Vessels of Mammon, the lot of them. //-- <*> Keith Bolland --------------------------------------- // "Life isn't fair. But the root password helps." -- The BOFH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 20:13:45 -0300 From: pbarkow@is2.dal.ca Subject: Re: IN> Adam, Prince of somethingorother (Re: Lilith?) On 11 Aug 00, at 17:50, David Edelstein wrote: > Prodigal wrote: > > Some legends claim that God did exactly this, but that Adam was too > > horrified by the sight of Wife #2's innards (since God made her skin and > > hair after everything else was created*) to be able to stay with her. > > According to those, Eve is Wife #3. > > That appeared in an issue of "Sandman," but I suspect that "legend" may Which one? > have been invented by Gaiman. I would suspect not. Gaiman tends to do respectable amount of research (have you read the annotated Sandman? Sheesh.) Though it is not unusual for him to take a paragraph from an obscure reference book and turn it into a fable. > > -David > "Is he going to get in trouble if he kills this other person?" "I would expect so, yes. Murder is generally frowned upon, even in America." "You may want to remind him of this." Philip Barkow pbarkow@is2.dal.ca http://is2.dal.ca/~pbarkow/ Harbinger of Keener-sama Vice President DPG Official Fashion Consultant and Hentai of the DGML Shameless Faith/Buffy shipper. Lapsed Discordian Head of the Keiko-chanian faction ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 16:47:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Redeemed Furfur Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:00:47 -0500 (CDT)From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Redeemed Furfur On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, lizard wrote: >>the clincher is, after Furfur makes Prince, some >>time later he'll be Redeemed..trouble is, I can't >>think of any good Words for a Redeemed (and >>Archangelic) Furfur; the closest thing I can come to >>is AA of Hardcore, but I'm not good at making >>Attunements and I'm not entirely sure what a Divine >>Hardcore would mean. Any help people? Please? >Is it necessary for Furfur to /have/ a Word? While >Moe Lane gives an interesting rationale for his Oops >superiors having Words (God granting them directly, >that is), I have severe doubts that the Seraphim >Council would trust a Redeemed ex-Demon Prince enough >to give him a Word anytime close to when he Redeems. So do I. Having the Big Guy overrule the Council works, but you can't go too many times to that particular well*. :) (Now that I think of it, having three Redeemed AAs using that trick was possibly Too Many Times, but what the heck. I didn't think that anybody was actually going to _use_ them, or anything.) OTOH, Furfur would be prime agitprop material, so he's _gonna_ get some goodies, especially if he's bright enough to throw himself on the mercy of either one of the major Seraphim AAs. Probably Mike, but Furfur working for Judgement makes me laugh like a loon*... >What if Furfur's just a simple high-powered (or not >even so high-powered) angel? No Word, but if he isn't 18 Forces, I'd be kinda surprised. All that time as a Prince should be good for something. He'd also probably retain the Songs that he learned while as a Prince**, making him still fairly badass. Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Currently Working at Grand Central Station Tether *Not enough to write him up, though. Let somebody else twist and shout him until he fits. :) **_You_ try telling a Calabite Prince "no" when he calls your Songmaster ass into his office/mosh pit and demands that you set him up with the good sh** RIGHT NOW. ;) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 8/7/00 (this is a guess) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 11:33:52 +1200 (NZST) From: Keith Bolland Subject: Re: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover (was: Game) On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, Prodigal wrote: [on the subject of _Good Omens_] > He and Neil tried to do a sequel, but they just couldn't make it work. After > narrowly averting the Apocalypse, what else can you do? Er... retire and drink quite nice tea for the rest of your days? I see your point, though. Hm, I wonder at the possibilities of a prequel. Ah well. I don't imagine anything would be as good as the first one, anyway. As a tangent, though I don't imagine SJG's budget would stretch, wouldn't it be cool if the two of them were hired to write an actual -IN- novel?[1] > *Pterry spoke about the attempted sequel during this year's Aggiecon - one > of the characters was to have been the demon in charge of recording > backwards messages on heavy metal albums. Unfortunately, thanks to demons > not being all that creative, he never put anything really out there on them: > "Wear leather jackets" was about as bad as it got. Heh. Sounds like a particularly stupid Djinn of the Media. [1] Not that I don't think that hasn't been brought up fifty-some times already. //-- <*> Keith Bolland --------------------------------------- // "Life isn't fair. But the root password helps." -- The BOFH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:49:30 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? At 5:52 PM -0500 8/11/00, Prodigal wrote: >From: "David Edelstein" >> >> But anyone >> else who makes the mistake of sympathizing with Lilith is forgetting >> 20,000+ years of conscious, deliberate alliance with Lucifer and >> conspiracy against God, Heaven, and humanity. > >Or 20,000+ years of trying to avoid being destroyed by the forces of both >Heaven and the more hostile parts of Hell. Or 19,999 years of going, "Aw, crap, this stinks too" and making the best of the hand she was dealt. (Or 10,000 years of being Hellbitch and 10,000 years of not, or whatever portions you desire, including 5000 evil, 5000 not-so-evil, 5000 evil, 492 downright PMS-stricken*, 5 in a running battle with some minor Prince who thought he could dismember Lilim at his whim, 1 year spent in a little town somewhere with Eli and a lot of alcohol, 290 making up for that by tripping angels left and right because the b*****d suggested she should have some _real_ kids and then bugged out instead of staying put to be hit by flying crockery (not to mention Azzie and Baal started asking pointed questions about her whereabouts at that time), 10 in a whimsical marriage to one of Michael's Saints, without letting the guy find out till the last minute, 40 spent focusing on spreading the rumor that the reason "Lilim" is a plural and a singular both is because all Lilim are just manifestations of Lilith, 60 dodging Michael because he just found out about why one of his Saints broke cover to lead some petty rebellion or other (going 'neener, neener, neener' while dodging is STRICTLY CDaU), 500 desultorily trying to get Marc into enough trouble that he'd jump ship like Gabriel, 2 somewhere in the Lower Hells and appearing on Earth only when invoked and giggling disturbingly when asked what she was up to...) (* I'm female, I can get away with saying that.) And I'm, personally (PERSONALLY**), unconvinced that one _must_ assume that she really, freely, chose Lucifer. He appeared to her after the Fall, when he was a Balseraph. A ****ing _powerful_ Balseraph. And what do Balseraphs do? They make you believe things. It would not break with canon much, if any, to presume that there was heavy application of a Prince-level Balseraph resonance to a mere 15-Force human who didn't know any better anyway. **_PERSONALLY_. Go do what you want in your private corner of the multiverse, I'll do what I want, Morgan will do what it*** wants, etc., etc. ***Morgan being a Kyriotate. Of course, that could also read "do what they wants" as well. (Yes, "they wants" -- singulars and plurals are always iffy around Kyriotates.) - --Beth, typing w/a baby (iolanthe) on her chest. Vapitalizatoin & spelling difficult, typing w/1 hand & supporting baby w/other. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:33:38 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover In a message dated 8/11/00 6:42:36 AM Central Daylight Time, ryumo@merit.edu writes: << Since we're in the dark place, does CMOTD work for the Archangel Marc, or Vapula, or....? >> Mammon. :) I don't know where you got Vapula from. Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:40:29 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Short Story: Eli Must Die >What's Eli doing these days? Running for his life, that's what. Archangels >who have forgotten that they are Archangels seldom can do much more than >that... Dear Council Eli is an archangel. Creation spans more than the current rigid hierarchy of heaven. All will be revealed in time. Until the first great revolt from hell.... The you will understand. Then you will (perhaps) see the true power of creation. None of this we can tell Humanity about, it would be wrong to influence their decisions and and the divine nature of free will. Ashley Menunite of Creation Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:45:18 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Redeemed Furfur In a message dated 8/11/00 10:01:53 AM Central Daylight Time, edg@sjgames.com writes: << Is it necessary for Furfur to /have/ a Word? While Moe Lane gives an interesting rationale for his Oops superiors having Words (God granting them directly, that is), I have severe doubts that the Seraphim Council would trust a Redeemed ex-Demon Prince enough to give him a Word anytime close to when he Redeems. What if Furfur's just a simple high-powered (or not even so high-powered) angel? >> That's an interesting thought. If an Archangel or Prince were stripped of Superior status, what would they be like? Would Furfur simply return to his original stats? Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:46:51 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "Charles Glasgow" > > From: "Prodigal" > > > From: "David Edelstein" > > > > > > But anyone else who makes the mistake of sympathizing with Lilith is > > > forgetting 20,000+ years of conscious, deliberate alliance with > > > Lucifer and conspiracy against God, Heaven, and humanity. > > > Or 20,000+ years of trying to avoid being destroyed by the forces of both > > Heaven and the more hostile parts of Hell. > > Errrr... who was it who created the first Tethers that allowed the forces of > Hell to have access to Earth in the first place? Lilith. And who was it that inspired her original grievances? > She *chose* to let Lucifer's legions out of the box they were locked in. > If she'd just stayed on Earth doing her selfish little trip, they'd have > found it nigh-impossible to get to her. Instead, she turns her demon pals > loose on Adam's descendants to work off a grudge vs. him, them, and God. Hell *did* show her more respect... *shrugs* > > A total lack of sympathy is as huge a mistake as you claim sympathy is. > > She picked a side, *not* under duress, and with full knowledge beforehand of > the nature and consequences of her action. I haven't seen anything in IN to indicate that she knew exactly what sort of consequences her actions would have, or that she was on emotionally stable ground when she did it. If Lucifer was able to seduce Wordbound celestials to his side, could he not likewise seduce Lilith? > Fine. She wants to declare herself the enemy, she'll be treated as such. > Welcome to the War, Lilith, and you picked your side. You just summed up the exact sort of attitude that ensures her continued alliegance to Hell. > > > She ain't no victim. > > > > She could be. > > Only if you rewrite a whole lot of IN history. Or if you entertain the possibility that she made a bad decision in helping out the Fallen, and then had no choice but to make the best of it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:52:39 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Discworld/IN Crossover From: > In a message dated 8/11/00 6:42:36 AM Central Daylight Time, ryumo@merit.edu > writes: > > << Since we're in the dark place, does CMOTD work for the Archangel > Marc, or Vapula, or....? >> > > Mammon. :) > I don't know where you got Vapula from. Answer #1: It was the common Vapula/Valefor nameswap Answer #2: A dirty toilet seat ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 01:06:00 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? >You presume she ovulates. Believe me, if endowed with >Superior powers, the _first_ thing I'd do would be >to STOP that annoying little trait... And substitute for what. HRT? Trust me, this is a bad idea Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:49:06 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? >(Remember, the main book says that Lilith LIES....) Hmm, the book of lies. Never trust the establishment. Any establishment.... Ashley Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:58:39 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? >Our reason for doing so? The word of a Demon Princess. God himself created Lilith. Do you question the word of a being created by God? Do you question a plan none of us understand? Have you no faith? A Menunite of Creation Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 20:21:52 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Adam, Prince of somethingorother (Re: Lilith?) In a message dated 8/11/00 5:36:48 PM Central Daylight Time, prodigal@ticnet.com writes: << Some legends claim that God did exactly this, but that Adam was too horrified by the sight of Wife #2's innards (since God made her skin and hair after everything else was created*) to be able to stay with her. According to those, Eve is Wife #3. >> I remember reading that in Sandman. I don't know where else the legend comes from. Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 20:52:15 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Omentide" To: Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 6:58 PM Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > > >Our reason for doing so? The word of a Demon Princess. > > God himself created Lilith. Do you question the word of a being created by > God? God also created *Lucifer*. Your point is? The two greatest Seraphs in Creation were Michael and Lucifer. One of them chose to obey God, the other chose to rebel. One of them is still the First of the Seraphs, and speaks the Truth as bluntly as only he can... the other Fell and became the First Balseraph, the unquestioned Father of Lies. Heck yeah I question the word of a being created by God... if they later turned and defied him, and associated with a known Liar. > Do you question a plan none of us understand? Lilith *rejected* God's plan for her. As did Lucifer, rejecting God's plan for humanity. That's why they're among the Fallen, and that's why they're no longer trusted. > Have you no faith? They didn't. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:03:18 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prodigal" To: Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 6:46 PM Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > From: "Charles Glasgow" > > > > From: "Prodigal" > > > > > From: "David Edelstein" > > > > > > > > But anyone else who makes the mistake of sympathizing with Lilith is > > > > forgetting 20,000+ years of conscious, deliberate alliance with > > > > Lucifer and conspiracy against God, Heaven, and humanity. > > > > > Or 20,000+ years of trying to avoid being destroyed by the forces of > > > both Heaven and the more hostile parts of Hell. > > Errrr... who was it who created the first Tethers that allowed the forces > > of Hell to have access to Earth in the first place? Lilith. > > And who was it that inspired her original grievances? Your original implication was that Lilith was coerced into joining the side of Hell. As can be seen, she willingly joined. BTW, if Lilith's opinion of God were actually true, she'd never have left Eden alive. Or with her free will. She'd be Adam's happy slave to this very day... .. if God or the Host *really* worked the way Lilith and Hell claim they worked. No free will in Heaven, indeed. > > She *chose* to let Lucifer's legions out of the box they were locked in. > > If she'd just stayed on Earth doing her selfish little trip, they'd have > > found it nigh-impossible to get to her. Instead, she turns her demon > > pals loose on Adam's descendants to work off a grudge vs. him, them, and God. > Hell *did* show her more respect... *shrugs* So? All you're affirming here is that Lilith freely chose to work with Hell. That having been said, she can no longer claim the status of "victim" -- she chose a side, and to this very she chooses to remain with that side. Lilith is *not* some naive little Lilim whose heard nothing but Balseraphic propaganda all her life about how Bright Lilim can't really exist and how Redemption is a myth. Lilith is a Superior. Lilith is one of the two best horse-traders and deal-makers in all creation. Lilith has more information about how things *really* work than 99.999999% of Lucifer's legions do. She *knows* there's another way, she *knows* they don't really kill people who wish to Redeem, and she *would* know -- if she were honest with herself -- that Heaven is not the slavery she claims it is. (The mere fact that she left Eden alive... and was able to choose to leave Eden, had the *ability* to tell God to go screw himself -- shows that one.) And yet she stays in Hell anyway, because Hell has what she wants and Heaven don't. That counts as willingly and with malice aforethought choosing a side. Lucifer believes it's better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. Lilith shares that belief. So let her share Lucifer's fate. > > > A total lack of sympathy is as huge a mistake as you claim sympathy is. > > > > She picked a side, *not* under duress, and with full knowledge beforehand > > of the nature and consequences of her action. > I haven't seen anything in IN to indicate that she knew exactly what sort of > consequences her actions would have, or that she was on emotionally stable > ground when she did it. If Lucifer was able to seduce Wordbound celestials > to his side, could he not likewise seduce Lilith? That works for the first century or so. The remaining 21,900 years are explained by...? If Lilith were truly the hoodwinked innocent you imply that she is here, she'd have Redeemed by now. Lord knows that umpteen dozen Bright Daughters of hers are sufficient proof of concept to show her that it is possible to do so. Nope. Lilith still chooses to stay with Hell, 'cause Hell gives her what she wants and Heaven don't. Selfish as the rest of 'em. > > Fine. She wants to declare herself the enemy, she'll be treated as such. > > Welcome to the War, Lilith, and you picked your side. > > You just summed up the exact sort of attitude that ensures her continued > alliegance to Hell. Wrongo. That attitude does *not* preclude changes of allegiance -- if Lilith ever *wanted* to leave Hell, at least four Archangels we know would instantaneously volunteer as side boys and hold a parade, spreading flowers under her feet as she walked through the Pearly Gates. And she *knows* it. She stays down there anyway. > > > > She ain't no victim. > > > > > > She could be. > > > > Only if you rewrite a whole lot of IN history. > > Or if you entertain the possibility that she made a bad decision in helping > out the Fallen, and then had no choice but to make the best of it. False. Anybody can redeem. And it's not like the Game can really stop her... they can't even *find* her, fer Gossake. Lilith can manifest on Earth with no disturbance whatsoever! She's got a clear shot to walk into any Divine Tether there is and go "Call your Archangel, I want to come in from the cold", and the Game won't have a single clue what happened till after they hear the shouting from the party in Novalis's Glade welcoming the Bright Lilith to Heaven. Lilith *does* have the choice to stop serving Hell. She's got more of a choice, more knowledge of the real situation, less eyes-blinded by Balseraphic propaganda, and a greater ability to elude the Game than any one of the other demons who've ever Redeemed. She chooses not to. She's where she wants to be. Fine. - -- Chuckg "When you choose an action, you choose all the consequences of that action." -- Countess Cordelia Vorkosigan of Barrayar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:05:45 -0400 From: EDG Subject: IN> INC Update, Week of 8/13 Greetings and salutations! Why no update last week? Honestly, because my time was rather taken up. Between work, a major convention, home life, and the fact that I'm moving (again) on Tuesday, I really had no time to get on the computer other than work - and when I was at work, I didn't have any of my "This Goes In The INC" files. So, here's the second weekly (sic) update. Since I'm posting on Friday, and since this weekend is Gen$Con, I'll wait until Monday night before posting these to the INC. In the future, updates will be posted Sunday night or Monday morning, and posted on Tuesday night. (I'm looking to avoid conflicting with the Pyramid update, among other things.) I will be UNAVAILABLE for a few days, starting on Tuesday, August 15. Moving has its penalties, and this is one of them. This means that if you want me to remove something from the INC Right Now, then you need to email me Right Now. Otherwise, it'll be there at least until Friday of next week. That being said, have a great weekend! - -EDG - --- In Nomine Collection Additions for the week of 8/13/00: Tothiel, Archangel of Light [Charles E. Smith] Here Comes The Bride (and She Is P***ed) [Maurice Lane] Malacoda, Demon Prince of Agony [Zeresh43@gateway.net] Lucretia, Demoness of Brainwashing [Charles Phipps] Bizarre Apocalypse [John Karakash] Opposites Attract, Chapter 1 [Charles Glasgow] Superiors and Free Will [Tim Groth] Demonic RPGs Campaign Presence [Guy Royse] Views on Belial [Neel Krishnaswami] "Angel" of Schlock Horror [Genevieve "Maya" Cogman] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:17:26 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Going _totally_ from that section, it was all the snake's idea, for > whatever reason -- no mention of the Lightbringer in any guise. Genesis doesn't even mention Satan, IIRC. It mentions a snake, which has traditionally been associated with the Devil. > To haul it kicking and screaming back to next-door-to-InNomine-land, > that account _does_ suggest* that _either_ Adam wasn't entirely with > it in the brains department, despite his presumed 10 Intelligence Hardly. You have to understand the themes and purpose of myths. In most myths, you'll find people acting in a manner that seems foolish, if not downright stupid. How likely is it that a typical god, as roleplayed by a typical GM, would actually fall for the tricks gods often fall for in myths? ("He's never going to agree to that -- he's got an Intelligence of 18!") > _or_ he was somewhat lacking in the take-responsibility-for-my-own- > actions department (a measure of jerkitude).** Which was part of the point of the Garden of Eden story, as it was meant to illustrate human failings. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:19:24 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? Prodigal wrote: > Or 20,000+ years of trying to avoid being destroyed by the forces of both > Heaven and the more hostile parts of Hell. She didn't have to side with Hell. She could still redeem. ("But then she'd lose her precious Freedom!" Well yes, that's the point. She made her bed, she refuses to leave it. She values her freedom more than she values following whatever might pass for her conscious.) > A total lack of sympathy is as> huge a mistake as you claim sympathy is. I think she might have deserved sympathy early on, but after 20,000 years....no. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:21:53 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? Prodigal wrote: > Hell *did* show her more respect... *shrugs* No -- Lucifer *pretended* to show her more respect. > You just summed up the exact sort of attitude that ensures her continued > alliegance to Hell. What -- "You have sided with the Enemy, therefore you are the enemy?" That's how every other demon gets treated. And every other demon has the choice of redeeming if it really wants to. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:37:24 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: IN> Balseraphs of Fate & Photgraphs (WAS: Bright Question.) At 3:48 PM -0400 08/10/00, Walter Milliken wrote: > [Bright's being angels, are able to use their resonance on a photograph] > raises another related question, which I think hasn't been touched on > -- whether Balseraphs of Kronos can use their angelic resonance on > recordings. Ooooh, good point. >Personally, I'm tempted to say no, they're still demons, so they can use >them "live" only. I.e., they're not *that* open to the Symphony, though >moreso than most demons. I'm inclined to agree here. After all what a Balseraph of Fate does is 'lie' to the Symphony, but that lie is imperfect. That's why a "Balakite" doesn't gain the ability to automatically come out of Trauma -- and we all know you don't fall off the floor, so conferring that aspect is just silly. Think of it as comparing a live performance of Natalie Merchant against those same songs played on one of her two solo albums. The notes may be relatively the same, but the energy she generates when playing the stage, like a cursed instrument, is far from prevelant. (And I've seen her twice; once in service to the infernal Word of Freedom in a Southpark Meadow, and again on her own in a Backyard. Her live performance is far-far superior to anything you can get out a -perfectly- repeatable copy of that same thing.) A demon being able to use an Angelic resonance is also potant in and of itself. They reveal things that would make it all too easy for a 'Kronosian' (whisper not the word 'Kronosite', lest you be visited by the Princess of Fear herself) to manipulate a hapless soul to his (or her) well deserved fate. So, in the end, who cares they can't use their resonance on a picture? They're perfectly capable of hearing those same thousand words from the Symphony anyway. . . Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:31:51 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> INC Update, Week of 8/13 Oh, perfect. Now I'll actually have to *write* Chapter 2. *eg* Given how often I feel my creative muse really strike me -- notvery -- I hope nobody was expecting the other chapters to come out on a regular basis... they'll arrive when I think of something, whether that be three in one week or one in three months. I'm sorry for the wait, but I'm *not* a great creator... 99% of my brain is in the left-brain, the right-brain only works on alternate leap years. But by all means, keep the first chapter up. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 11:24:00 +0800 From: lizard Subject: IN> AA of Zeal > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:00:47 -0500 (CDT) > From: EDG > Subject: Re: IN> Redeemed Furfur > > I'm not sure what mailer you're using, but your lines don't wrap in Pine. > :( > ...I'll fix it as soon as I figure out how to. > > On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, lizard wrote: > > > I've been lurking on this list for some time now; I'll be running an > > IN campaign soon, which features an extremely modified version of the > > Demon Prince of Rock and Roll..the clincher is, after Furfur makes > > Prince, some time later he'll be Redeemed..trouble is, I can't think of > > any good Words for a Redeemed(and Archangelic) Furfur; the closest thing > > I can come to is AA of Hardcore, but I'm not good at making Attunements > > and I'm not entirely sure what a Divine Hardcore would mean. Any help > > people? Please? > > Is it necessary for Furfur to /have/ a Word? While Moe Lane gives an > interesting rationale for his Oops superiors having Words (God granting > them directly, that is), I have severe doubts that the Seraphim Council > would trust a Redeemed ex-Demon Prince enough to give him a Word anytime > close to when he Redeems. > > What if Furfur's just a simple high-powered (or not even so high-powered) > angel? > > - -EDG > ...Actually, I've read the Oops campaign setting, and it's good, and I get to nick some ideas off it..but it's the whole point of the story that Furfur is an AA; he gets his Word from God..the problem is, Kobal's killed off God(don't ask; this is a sequel campaign to an earlier-run one); where Furfur REALLY got his Word from is up to debate. Is it Kobal? Is it the Ethereal Yahweh? Did God-The-God survive the Ultimate Joke of Kobal? Is Lucifer acting weird again? That's a mystery to be solved later..anyway, Furfur being an Archangel is essential to the plot. > > Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:59:51 -0500 > From: Earl Wajenberg > Subject: Re: IN> Redeemed Furfur > > Perhaps the divine equivalent to the Demon Prince of Hardcore > would be the Archangel of Zeal? He'd be the nemesis of the > Demon Prince of Sloth, if that Prince hadn't been lunched by > Haagenti. > > And, as I recall, Furfur is a Calabite, so would Redeem as an > Ophanite, for which Zeal is a very natural Word. > > Earl > ...Ooh. Zeal. I _like_. Any ideas on Attunements? And Sloth-boy Meserach's back in my campaign, after having turned Haagenti into a snowglobe(side-effect of the Ultimate Joke that offed the Almighty) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 23:33:19 -0400 From: John Maurer Subject: IN> The Whole Lilith thing. Charles Glasgow wrote: > Your original implication was that Lilith was coerced into joining the side > of Hell. As can be seen, she willingly joined. Your assumptions are overly-simple. There is no reason to require Lilith to have willingly joined hell. Imagine the scenario: God: Lilith, it is your duty to serve your husband Adam. Lilith: Screw you. Bye Lucifer: Lilith, join me now and be powerful or die and become an essence suck. Your choice. She may certainly have RELUCTCANTLY joined hell. Lucy may have used his resonance on her, she joined him, and even when she figured it out she may have said "well it's too late now. make the best of a bad situation." > BTW, if Lilith's opinion of God were actually true, she'd never have left > Eden alive. Or with her free will. She'd be Adam's happy slave to this > very day... Not necessarily. Again, you are too black and white. She could rebel against the limited choices she was given. God either makes you obey or you suffer eternally. Not a good choice. Her best option was (3): Side with Lucy and either win or gain several thousand years before you pay. > .. if God or the Host *really* worked the way Lilith and Hell claim they > worked. > > No free will in Heaven, indeed. Not necessarily no free will, but subserviance in heaven or being cast out. > All you're affirming here is that Lilith freely chose to work with Hell. > That having been said, she can no longer claim the status of "victim" -- she > chose a side, and to this very she chooses to remain with that side. She may be constantly under the thrall of lucifer. She may know that if she changes sides she dies. Not every redemption succeeds you know Some just die. > Lilith is *not* some naive little Lilim whose heard nothing but Balseraphic > propaganda all her life about how Bright Lilim can't really exist and how > Redemption is a myth. Lilith is a Superior. Lilith is one of the two best > horse-traders and deal-makers in all creation. Lilith has more information > about how things *really* work than 99.999999% of Lucifer's legions do. And knowing how things really work may say that hell is her reluctant best choice. What else can she do, hide in the deep marches with the other ethereal gods? > She *knows* there's another way, she *knows* they don't really kill people > who wish to Redeem, Often the process kills those that wish to redeem. How often is up to the individual GM. > and she *would* know -- if she were honest with > herself -- that Heaven is not the slavery she claims it is. (The mere fact > that she left Eden alive... and was able to choose to leave Eden, had the > *ability* to tell God to go screw himself -- shows that one.) It is still slavery, Be one or die is only slightly different than be one or be tortured for eternity. > And yet she stays in Hell anyway, because Hell has what she wants and Heaven > don't. This may be a choice of the best of two evils. This may also be a "Lucifer has a chain around my neck no one can see and I can't leave him" if you want to play her that way. > That counts as willingly and with malice aforethought choosing a side. Again, oversimplification. > Lucifer believes it's better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. Lilith > shares that belief. So let her share Lucifer's fate. Only if you assume Lucifer doesn't have some thorn on Lilith that keeps her there. Perhaps Lilith:"save me from God" Lucifer: "Okay, that will be 25,000 level six geasa" Lilith: Anything, just save me. > That works for the first century or so. The remaining 21,900 years are > explained by...? Once you have the tiger by the tail, you have no choice but to hang on. > If Lilith were truly the hoodwinked innocent you imply that she is here, > she'd have Redeemed by now. Lord knows that umpteen dozen Bright Daughters > of hers are sufficient proof of concept to show her that it is possible to > do so. It is also possible the light of heaven destroys you. > Nope. Lilith still chooses to stay with Hell, 'cause Hell gives her what > she wants and Heaven don't. Selfish as the rest of 'em. Or she's stuck there by bad choices or super balseraphic resonance, or perhaps some mcguffin artifact that Lucifer has. That might be a cool plot thread actually. Lilith: I'd like to redeem, but Lucifer wears a ring that binds me to him. If only you could get him to remove it > Wrongo. That attitude does *not* preclude changes of allegiance -- if > Lilith ever *wanted* to leave Hell, at least four Archangels we know would > instantaneously volunteer as side boys and hold a parade, spreading flowers > under her feet as she walked through the Pearly Gates. Unless of course she died instead of redeeming. > False. Anybody can redeem. Untrue. Lots of demons die when/if they try. > Lilith *does* have the choice to stop serving Hell. She's got more of a > choice, more knowledge of the real situation, less eyes-blinded by > Balseraphic propaganda, and a greater ability to elude the Game than any one > of the other demons who've ever Redeemed. And how do you know she's not constantly bombarded by propaganda and Balseraph resonance? Its never as simple as it seems. Speaks ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1771 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.