From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Aug 12 02:41:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA14276 for ; Sat, 12 Aug 2000 02:41:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id CAA27644 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 12 Aug 2000 02:39:19 -0500 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 02:39:19 -0500 Message-Id: <200008120739.CAA27644@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1772 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, August 12 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1772 In this digest: Re: IN> INC Update, Week of 8/13 RE: IN> The Changing of Words Re: IN> The Whole Lilith thing. Re: IN> The Whole Lilith thing. Re: IN> The Whole Lilith thing. Re: IN> The Whole Lilith thing. Re: IN> The Whole Lilith thing. IN> The Changing of Words Re: IN> The Whole Lilith thing. IN> Redeeming a Demon/Corrupting an Angel Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? IN> Lilith ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Aug 2000 20:38:37 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> INC Update, Week of 8/13 Where are you putting the stuff from the old updates? They aren't in any of the sections, and using the search engine turns up nothing. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:45:08 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: RE: IN> The Changing of Words EDG, Nicely done. This is *very* much the way I run Word-changes in my campaign - it's not easy, it's rare, and you might not survive it. I think I'll be saving this to haul out when explanations about why I said "no" might be in order... Ki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:47:06 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> The Whole Lilith thing. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Maurer" To: Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 10:33 PM Subject: IN> The Whole Lilith thing. [snip] > > And yet she stays in Hell anyway, because Hell has what she wants and Heaven > > don't. > > This may be a choice of the best of two evils. This may also be a "Lucifer has a > chain around my neck no one can see and I can't leave him" if you want to play her > that way. In your individual campaign, it may be anything. But I thought the default for discussions was discussing the 'canon' Lilith, unless specifically stated otherwise. As I said -- you *can* make Lilith a victim, but only by significantly rewriting large chunks of her history. As her history is currently written, she's no victim -- she's a willing servant of the Adversary. [snip] > > Lilith *does* have the choice to stop serving Hell. She's got more of a > > choice, more knowledge of the real situation, less eyes-blinded by > > Balseraphic propaganda, and a greater ability to elude the Game than any one > > of the other demons who've ever Redeemed. > > And how do you know she's not constantly bombarded by propaganda and Balseraph > resonance? The Princess of Freedom? The one who can take Marc himself in a business deal, and trade favors and play both sides against the middle os well that she can thrive on the politics of Hell despite having only one-tenth the raw might of most other Princes? (Even if she is fast enough to outrun any of them.) "And if Lilith can't win, then she'll run -- and nothing yet has been able to restrain Freedom." That one's a quote from the GMG. So quote me the odds she's that enslaved. > Its never as simple as it seems. In this game, it quite easily can be. When you're talking about the ultimate war between Heaven and Hell... if you can't get black-and-white to show up here, you can't get it anywhere. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 23:48:25 -0400 From: John Maurer Subject: Re: IN> The Whole Lilith thing. Charles Glasgow wrote: > -In your individual campaign, it may be anything. But I thought the > default for discussions was discussing the 'canon' Lilith, unless > specifically stated otherwise. > > As I said -- you *can* make Lilith a victim, but only by significantly > rewriting large chunks of her history. As her history is currently written, > she's no victim -- she's a willing servant of the Adversary. > > > And how do you know she's not constantly bombarded by propaganda and > Balseraph > > resonance? > > The Princess of Freedom? The one who can take Marc himself in a business > deal, and trade favors and play both sides against the middle os well that > she can thrive on the politics of Hell despite having only one-tenth the raw > might of most other Princes? (Even if she is fast enough to outrun any of > them.) When did Lilith take Marc in a business deal, again, book and page. Or is this another assumption? If she's playing both sides against the middle, she's not on hell's side is she? > > Its never as simple as it seems. > > In this game, it quite easily can be. When you're talking about the > ultimate war between Heaven and Hell... if you can't get black-and-white to > show up here, you can't get it anywhere. Actually thats only in a high contrast game. Most of us play it a bit more muddy. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:59:13 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> The Whole Lilith thing. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Maurer" To: Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 10:48 PM Subject: Re: IN> The Whole Lilith thing. > When did Lilith take Marc in a business deal, again, book and page. Or is this > another assumption? Final Trumpet, alternate ending, where Marc has his feelings a little hurt that she's so far ahead of him. > If she's playing both sides against the middle, she's not on hell's side is she? I was referring to Hell's *internal* politics -- the Prince-vs-Prince gamesmanship that contantly goes on. *Externally*, she's on the side of Hell, and her dealings with Heaven are solely from the standpoint of "What can I screw out of them?" > > > Its never as simple as it seems. > > > > In this game, it quite easily can be. When you're talking about the > > ultimate war between Heaven and Hell... if you can't get black-and-white to > > show up here, you can't get it anywhere. > > Actually thats only in a high contrast game. Most of us play it a bit more > muddy. Speak for yourselves. From what I've seen, high-contrast is as popular as muddy. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:37:17 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Whole Lilith thing. John Maurer wrote: > Your assumptions are overly-simple. There is no reason to require Lilith to have > willingly joined hell. Imagine the scenario: > God: Lilith, it is your duty to serve your husband Adam. > Lilith: Screw you. Bye > Lucifer: Lilith, join me now and be powerful or die and become an essence suck. > Your choice. That's an imaginative scenario, but not a likely one. Actually, it's as overly-simple as Charles' binary worldview. > She may be constantly under the thrall of lucifer. She may know that if she > changes sides she dies. Not every redemption succeeds you know Some just die. True. But again, she's valuing her own life over the lives of untold millions whose misery and damnation she is contributing to. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:39:42 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Whole Lilith thing. Charles Glasgow wrote: > In your individual campaign, it may be anything. But I thought the > default for discussions was discussing the 'canon' Lilith, unless > specifically stated otherwise. You're not describing the canonical Lilith. The canonical Lilith is deliberately left vague as to how "evil" she really is. You're describing Lilith as she would be in a high-contrast campaign, which is NOT the default canon setting. > In this game, it quite easily can be. When you're talking about the > ultimate war between Heaven and Hell... if you can't get black-and-white to > show up here, you can't get it anywhere. You can indeed. But that is a GM's option. Once again, while I agree with your basic opinion, you are presenting subjective opinion as objective fact, and doing so in a deliberately contentious, nigh-on-trolling, manner. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 01:29:33 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Changing of Words >This story sort of embodies that Beutiful work EDG and truly an excellent tale all round with POWERFUl reprocussions but a note that people wonder is that if they are disregarding what they are instead of embracing something more potent. Rather with you and the Angel of Coal mines instead of losing his old word would expand it so it does not lose it's potency... and such an experience would not be terrible but joyous... Allow me to do my own (your inspired this of course) *** Isaiah the Seraph of Forgetting Troubles walked somewhat trepidly into the Seraphim Council chambers where the Archangels (and the few powerful word bound deemed strong or wise enough to sit wth them) sat awaiting his arrival. Isaiah fidgetted a great deal while he stood before their gaze, wondering exactly what to make of what was going to happen to him. His superior the Lady Novalis had suggested him for taking the word of Forgetfulness over from the previous holder who had been slain none too long ago. His entire existence (and he had been around quite a while even Celestially speaking) had been devoted to easing the memories of pain humanity and his fellow angels had. Isaiah recognized when he had achieved the word he had already been dedicated to the point where when the change had come it had only been a slight alteration....but he knew how much FOCUS existed now. Before he had been able to think about other things but always first and primarily was now the easing of painful memories from the Symphony. 'What now though?' he wondered about the word of Forgetfulness in total. Would he become completely absent minded living each day to the new fullest because he couldn't recall the previous? Would he become obsessed with destroying all harmful memories from the Symphony? Would instead of a healer would he become a inquisitor or some kind of strange SiB? Finally, Michael and Dominic looked up at Isaiah, and he felt a thrill run through the cores of his rings as the eyes of the Seraphim bored into him. "Do you Isaiah, Seraphim of Eli in the service to Novalis, Angel of Forgetting Troubles know the price and reward of the thing you petition?" Dominic asked while Michael's eyes bored in him. "I understand it is God's will." Isaiah spoke truthfully, he felt it was right though he conferred with Novalis in sight to draw on her strength. He wished his old mentor was here as well but he had rarely had contact with Eli since he had jumped ship to help humanity. Or so Isaiah imagined. "Do you pledge to honor this word and promote it as much as your previous word? To give it the strength and support you have your own? If you have any doubts about your ability to promote it properly speak now and do not hold your peace." Laurence spoke with a penetrating glare, always direct and to the point if tactful. "I believe I can." Isaiah spokesoftly. Whatever the new strength of his word, he would meet it head on. "Believe?" Laurence asked. "I will not know sire until I have it." Isaiah nodded to the Malakim. Truth was a part of every choir but sometimes it was more difficult for them to understand such the subjectivity required of it. Many Seraphim did not indeed. Laurence mollfied, waved his approval and the Council gathered their energy about Isaiah to where the next momments of his life were sheer agony and ectasy....agony at his new responibilities and understanding, ectasy as to what they entailed. In a sheer momment his entire belief system about the word being a memory needing forgetting from pain crumbled to realizing that the world being a memory needing of forgetfulness period. The dangers of knowledge in the wrong hands, trauma, mentally warping propaganda from Hell, and even dreams and desires that distracted one from what was real....flooded his core to be wiped away. There was also the soothing of troubles from before....and also that on occasion humanity had to forget knowledge and material things to lose his selfish concentration. 'So much...' he thought, though he was invigorated by humanity's sucess in doing all these things. "Go forth Angel of Forgetfulness. You are no longer one of mine though happy I am for you...join Yves's service to fufill your word." His superior spoke with a low tone to her voice and Isaiah nodded. He was no longer capable of service slowly to flowers and it made him weep. 'But it is God's will.' the Angel of Forgetfulness spoke truly, feeling it in his heart. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:43:55 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Whole Lilith thing. Charles Glasgow wrote: > Final Trumpet, alternate ending, where Marc has his feelings a little hurt > that she's so far ahead of him. As far as IN canon goes, that's an "apocryphal" story, since it doesn't really happen. And Lilith doesn't exactly prove herself far ahead of him; she just demonstrates herself to have outmaneuvered him on a point or two. We have no indication of how well she'd fare in an extended battle of wills and wiles. (And I hated that story anyway, but I hate all the "Lilith-is-cool" fanfic.) > Speak for yourselves. From what I've seen, high-contrast is as popular as > muddy. My perception is that both are pretty popular. I don't think there's ever been a survey done (might actually be an interesting thing to do), but in any case, while the canonical IN setting has been somewhat schizoid about how high contrast it is, it tends more towards the middle than towards either extreme. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 02:05:26 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Redeeming a Demon/Corrupting an Angel >Different Superiors would definitely reward differently. Here's my >take on it. Thank you. I think I'll be giving him a distinction from Novalis to Vassalhood since he also rescued an Angel and thrawted a Tether forming. >*Eli would be the most unpredictable -- there's no telling what he'd >do, you only know that it would be good for you (though it might be a >mixed blessing). Hehehe I'm definately not sure....for some reason I imagine him taking his servitor and new servitor out for Pizza and then having the box become a relicquiary. >*Novalis and Asmodeus would doubtless reward lavishly -- getting an >enemy to switch sides serves their Words and falls right in line with >their respective policies concerning the other side. Definately in my mind it's worth a Force point to them in and of itself. An attunement free of charge also is a definate point in their favor though I'm not sure Asmodeus wouldn't send some people to rifle your stuff too if you should happen to have redeemed this angel by hanging out with them.... >*Andrealphus would probably grant a Distinction -- especially if the >angel was turned by means of seduction. Agreed and in this case I believe Isaiah will be getting a MAJOR unpleasant enemy in Dr. Frank N. Furter here. The fact that the Angel of Strippers went over (him vs. her friends in austin and a "student"-no brainer), cost him a tether, and did it with love is going to put him on the "I want him DEAD" list for some time. >*Most other Superiors would be middle-of-the-road on this issue; >there'd be a reward, but not as big as Novalis or Asmodeus would give. Blandine is likely to reward as faithfully as Novalis in my opinion isn't she? - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 01:57:57 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "Charles Glasgow" > > > > And who was it that inspired her original grievances? > > Your original implication was that Lilith was coerced into joining the side > of Hell. No, it was not. > > Hell *did* show her more respect... *shrugs* > > So? > > All you're affirming here is that Lilith freely chose to work with Hell. Because Hell treated her better than Heaven ever did, yes. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 01:58:52 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "David Edelstein" > Prodigal wrote: > > Hell *did* show her more respect... *shrugs* > > No -- Lucifer *pretended* to show her more respect. Which was still more than God did. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 07:23:22 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? >From: Elizabeth McCoy >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 19:49:30 -0400 > >At 5:52 PM -0500 8/11/00, Prodigal wrote: > >From: "David Edelstein" > >> > >> But anyone > >> else who makes the mistake of sympathizing with Lilith is forgetting > >> 20,000+ years of conscious, deliberate alliance with Lucifer and > >> conspiracy against God, Heaven, and humanity. > > > >Or 20,000+ years of trying to avoid being destroyed by the forces of both > >Heaven and the more hostile parts of Hell. > >Or 19,999 years of going, "Aw, crap, this stinks too" and making the >best of the hand she was dealt. I had the impression from the main book that she was reasonably happy with the way things were going for her. My reading is that Lilith has never in her entire life done anything out of any motivation except for looking after number 1. Ever. If she's had affairs with anyone, it's purely because of what she could get out of it. That's from day 1. I imagine that if she walked out on Adam, it was simply because she didn't think the game was worth the candle. If he could have given her the power that Lucifer did, she'd have happily gone along with any number of his suggestions. (Which makes you wonder if Lucifer uses her as his pet bondage slave whenever he gets bored -- she's the ultimate whore, and as long as she gets paid well, she has no morals at all. No wonder she likes Andre.) jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 02:35:04 -0500 From: "Sean Gallagher" Subject: IN> Lilith This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C00405.EC315EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alot of the suppositions on this particular topic are being made on = one thing: The Nature of Lilith. This is not as easy to state as it = first appears. One would first say that Lilith is a human, albeit an = exceptional one, created by God and taken in by the Morningstar, given = the word of Freedom and given a place in Hell's Royalty. Within IN's = terms, there are a few inherent contradictions. Humans cannot be made = into angels or demons...a beings type may be alter, as with the creation = of the Malakim or a saint, but the fundamental nature of the thing = cannot be altered. One Catholic definition of God's omnipotence is able = to do everything that is possible. Which is to say that God cannot make = a square circle or the like. Lucifer also was able to give Lilith a = word. I have thought of two possible explanations for these two = contradictions.=20 First, and possibly the easiest to understand, Lucifer is simply = such a consummate liar that he can actually lie to the symphony. (Now = lets not get into the fact that in IN, God is the personification of the = symphony and to a lesser extent so are all of us so therefore Lucifer is = lying to God..that's a whole other can of worms). He actually makes the = symphony believe that she has a word and is a Demon Princess...so no = problem, she is. Now this could easily be used by many GMs. I have some = problems with it as it makes Lucifer damn near omnipotent. The Second and definite more complicated possibility is that Lilith = is still in fact very human. It has been stated in either the CPG or the = GMG that a human (saint, soldier, etc) is able to get a choir resonance = by receiving a force from the appropriate choir or band. Now if that's = what can be done with one force, how much of a connection would be = needed for a word? (I've already decided that an example of this would = be to tap into those forces and give something akin to the Celestial and = Ethereal Connections)To me and Archangel or demon prince seems to me to = be much more a quantum leap of power and perspective than a fundamental = change in nature. For example a man standing on a top of a mountain with = a rifle can do things magical and unthinkable for a man on the group = with a rock. The change in status to an archangel or demon prince gives = the being the ability to manipulate the symphony on a much greater = level. What I'm suggesting is that God, Lucifer, or the Seraphim council = simply takes the blinders off and gives you the symphony in stereo...for = a regular human this is not possible, but for a being that has been = inundated with the forces of celestials? Maybe not? If this is the case, = this makes Lilith truly a unique being in all of creation. Now for this = to work, and not to fundamentally change Lilith on a psychological = level, the majority of these forces would be Celestial. Now we have a = being that can manipulate the Symphony on a primal level, and create = demons, and the like as a Demon Prince, and yet is human.)=20 This also makes the Lilim a slightly different being than is = previously thought. The have a different perspective than any other, = that is to say that they tap into the free will of Humanity...what = better Word can either Lilith or her daughters serve...if it is one = thing that humans exemplify more than any other, it is freedom. Going back to Lilith's nature, there are certain statements that = people in the list have said about her that I would like to bring into = question.=20 >Your original implication was that Lilith was coerced into joining the = side >of Hell. As can be seen, she willingly joined. When thinking about this one has to consider the circumstances = surrounding Lilith. She has had contact with very few beings at this = point. She has interacted with God, who created her and then wanted her = to be the wife of Adam, which in her mind entitled servitude, Adam, who = also wished to enslave her, the angels that tried to convince her to = come back to the experiment, and Lucifer, the morningstar, shining = Archangel of Light, who explains to you the concept of Free Will, that = you don't have to be enslaved by this man and his God, that you can = determine your own path. And then after you have been alone for a while = on your own in the big bad world, Lucifer comes back and says that he = needs you, he wants you, that he has tried to enslave him the way the he = once tried to you with you...and that he will give you the power to = protect yourself if you will only help him. Selfish or not, who wouldn't = go for that deal? And I'll have to lean towards Beth's explanation of = her since then...you have to remember, she is human...how many women, or = men for that matter, have spent months, years, or decades in bad = relationships? > All you're affirming here is that Lilith freely chose to work with = Hell. > That having been said, she can no longer claim the status of "victim" = - -- she > chose a side, and to this very she chooses to remain with that side > She *knows* there's another way, she *knows* they don't really kill = people > who wish to Redeem, Like I said, considering that she never had the up closer and = personals with God the way the Archangels of old did, and her limited = experience with God, why would she want to change? And even assuming she = wanted to change, people stay in relationships they know are bad for = them on the simply premise that the love the other person, or its just = easier than being alone...she's seen what's happened to many of her = daughters when they've tried to goto the other side, what's to keep that = from happening to her? > and she *would* know -- if she were honest with > herself -- that Heaven is not the slavery she claims it is. (The mere = fact > that she left Eden alive... and was able to choose to leave Eden, had = the > *ability* to tell God to go screw himself -- shows that one.) =20 Oh like there's no humans, or demons, or angels that are deluded and = can't stand the truth? > Lucifer believes it's better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. = Lilith > shares that belief. So let her share Lucifer's fate. =20 I love this one...I'm not trying to persecute the author because im = not sure of the intent. But this is one of most generally overused and = hypocritical statements that people make, and most of them come from the = Judeo-Christian religious perspective? How many of us truly would rather = serve? Aquinas believed that you are either a servant of God's will or a = slave to sin? That is the general angel perspective, at least so it = seems...think of the way we live our lives...we don't want people = telling us what to do, we want to lead are own lives...think about = teenage rebellion. And look at society...just about every form of = service that we have is in someway looked down upon...church, ie. = service to God...too boring...the military...too hard, I might get hurt = or killed, spending time wife/husband and/or children. ie. service to = family...don't have time, have too work...why do you have to work...so I = can make more money....why...to get a bigger house, car, computer, = etc...all selfish things that we take for granted everyday...its the = society that we live in...all in the name of Freedom...western = civilization is alive and well with Lilith's word. And it's spreading = everywhere... > If Lilith were truly the hoodwinked innocent you imply that she is = here, > she'd have Redeemed by now. Lord knows that umpteen dozen Bright = Daughters > of hers are sufficient proof of concept to show her that it is = possible to > do so. > Nope. Lilith still chooses to stay with Hell, 'cause Hell gives her = what > she wants and Heaven don't. Selfish as the rest of 'em. Well those arguments don't really work because she's human. She = can't be destroyed by the light of heaven. She can't really fall or = redeem. Well she can in that she's turned away from God/Original Sin = sense of the term, but in IN, at least for celestials, its not the same = thing. All it would take for her to redeem...in IN terms, would be for = her to decide to promote the positive aspects of her word exclusively, = "Serve" both creation and humanity in the generally positive way that = the Host does, goto a tether, ascend, find the nearest Archangel and beg = for forgiveness in front of the Seraphim Council...possible, yes....but = not very bloody likely...after all these years the one thing that she = would have to get past more than anything else....pride... > Wrongo. That attitude does *not* preclude changes of allegiance = - -- if > Lilith ever *wanted* to leave Hell, at least four Archangels we know = would > instantaneously volunteer as side boys and hold a parade, spreading = flowers > under her feet as she walked through the Pearly Gates. ROFLAO...Dominic wouldn't welcome Dominic and Eli...you think they = would be all happy, happy joy, joy over someone who has been their enemy = since the FALL...ok...Eli, Novalis,Marc,and Yves would, but they are all = peaceful faction...all the others wouldn't exactly be happy. The last thing I have to say about Lilith and how she should be = thought of comes from the CPG, pg. 8: =20 "Few Celestials appreciate the advantages of being human. Humans can = allow themselves to be swept up by passion; they feel more deeply than = most celestials. They never need fear that their unfettered emotions = will alter their fundamental natures. Humans have complete FREEDOM to = act selfishly or selflessly at will, to love one moment and hate the = next, to choose virtue or vice as their mood suits them. It gives them a = flexibility of thought unattainable by beings who can only relate to the = Symphony through the filter of their resonance and Word." - ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C00405.EC315EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Alot of the suppositions on this particular = topic are=20 being made on one thing: The Nature of Lilith. This is not as easy to = state as=20 it first appears. One would first say that Lilith is a human, albeit an=20 exceptional one, created by God and taken in by the Morningstar, given = the word=20 of Freedom and given a place in Hell's Royalty. Within IN's terms, there = are a=20 few inherent contradictions. Humans cannot be made into angels or = demons...a=20 beings type may be alter, as with the creation of the Malakim or a = saint, but=20 the fundamental nature of the thing cannot be altered. One Catholic = definition=20 of God's omnipotence is able to do everything that is possible. Which is = to say=20 that God cannot make a square circle or the like. Lucifer also was able = to=20 give Lilith a word. I have thought of two possible explanations for = these=20 two contradictions.

First, and possibly the easiest to understand, = Lucifer=20 is simply such a consummate liar that he can actually lie to the = symphony. (Now=20 lets not get into the fact that in IN, God is the = personification of=20 the symphony and to a lesser extent so are all of us so = therefore=20 Lucifer is lying to God..that's a whole other can of = worms). He=20 actually makes the symphony believe that she has a word and is a Demon=20 Princess...so no problem, she is. Now this could easily be used by many = GMs.=20 I have some problems with it as it makes Lucifer damn near=20 omnipotent.

The Second and definite more complicated = possibility is=20 that Lilith is still in fact very human. It has been stated in = either the=20 CPG or the GMG that a human (saint, soldier, etc) is able to = get a=20 choir resonance by receiving a force from the appropriate choir or = band.=20 Now if that's what can be done with one force, how much of=20 a connection would be needed for a word? (I've already decided = that an=20 example of this would be to tap into those forces and give something = akin to the=20 Celestial and Ethereal Connections)To me and Archangel or demon prince = seems to=20 me to be much more a quantum leap of power and perspective = than a=20 fundamental change in nature. For example a man standing on a = top of a=20 mountain with a rifle can do things magical and = unthinkable for a=20 man on the group with a rock. The change in status to an archangel=20 or demon prince gives the being the ability to manipulate the = symphony on a=20 much greater level. What I'm suggesting is that God, Lucifer, = or the=20 Seraphim council simply takes the blinders off and gives you the = symphony in=20 stereo...for a regular human this is not possible, but for a being that = has been=20 inundated with the forces of celestials? Maybe not? If = this is=20 the case, this makes Lilith truly a unique being in all of creation. Now = for=20 this to work, and not to fundamentally change Lilith on a=20 psychological level, the majority of these forces would be = Celestial. Now=20 we have a being that can manipulate the Symphony on a primal level, = and=20 create demons, and the like as a Demon Prince, and yet is human.) =

This also makes the Lilim a slightly different = being=20 than is previously thought. The have a different perspective than any=20 other, that is to say that they tap into the free will of = Humanity...what better Word can either Lilith or her daughters = serve...if=20 it is one thing that humans exemplify more than any other, it is=20 freedom.

Going back to Lilith's nature, there are certain = statements that people in the list have said about her that I would like = to=20 bring into question.

>Your original implication was that Lilith was coerced into = joining the=20 side

>of Hell. As can be seen, she willingly = joined.

When thinking about this one has to consider the = circumstances surrounding Lilith. She has had contact with very few = beings at=20 this point. She has interacted with God, who created her and then wanted = her to=20 be the wife of Adam, which in her mind entitled servitude, Adam, who = also wished=20 to enslave her, the angels that tried to convince her to come back to = the=20 experiment, and Lucifer, the morningstar, shining Archangel of Light, = who=20 explains to you the concept of Free Will, that you don't have to be = enslaved by=20 this man and his God, that you can determine your own path. And then = after you=20 have been alone for a while on your own in the big bad world, Lucifer = comes back=20 and says that he needs you, he wants you, that he has tried to enslave = him the=20 way the he once tried to you with you...and that he will give you the = power to=20 protect yourself if you will only help him. Selfish or not, who wouldn't = go for=20 that deal? And I'll have to lean towards Beth's explanation of her since = then...you have to remember, she is human...how many women, or men for = that=20 matter, have spent months, years, or decades in bad relationships?

> All you're affirming here is that Lilith freely chose to work = with=20 Hell.
> That having been said, she can no longer claim the status = of=20 "victim" -- she
> chose a side, and to this very she chooses to = remain=20 with that side

> She *knows* there's another way, she *knows* they don't really = kill=20 people
> who wish to Redeem,

Like I said, considering that she never had the = up=20 closer and personals with God the way the Archangels of old did, and her = limited=20 experience with God, why would she want to change? And even assuming she = wanted=20 to change, people stay in relationships they know are bad for them on = the simply=20 premise that the love the other person, or its just easier than being=20 alone...she's seen what's happened to many of her daughters when they've = tried=20 to goto the other side, what's to keep that from happening to her?

> and she *would* know -- if she were honest with
> = herself --=20 that Heaven is not the slavery she claims it is. (The mere fact
> = that she=20 left Eden alive... and was able to choose to leave Eden, had the
> = *ability* to tell God to go screw himself -- shows that one.)

Oh like there's no humans, or demons, or angels = that are=20 deluded and can't stand the truth?

> Lucifer believes it's better to reign in Hell than serve in=20 Heaven. Lilith
> shares that belief. So let her share=20 Lucifer's fate.

I love this one...I'm not trying to persecute = the author=20 because im not sure of the intent. But this is one of most generally = overused=20 and hypocritical statements that people make, and most of them come from = the=20 Judeo-Christian religious perspective? How many of us truly would rather = serve?=20 Aquinas believed that you are either a servant of God's will or a slave = to sin?=20 That is the general angel perspective, at least so it seems...think of = the way=20 we live our lives...we don't want people telling us what to do, we want = to lead=20 are own lives...think about teenage rebellion. And look at = society...just about=20 every form of service that we have is in someway looked down = upon...church, ie.=20 service to God...too boring...the military...too hard, I might get hurt = or=20 killed, spending time wife/husband and/or children. ie. service to=20 family...don't have time, have too work...why do you have to work...so I = can=20 make more money....why...to get a bigger house, car, computer, etc...all = selfish=20 things that we take for granted everyday...its the society that we live = in...all=20 in the name of Freedom...western civilization is alive and well with = Lilith's=20 word. And it's spreading everywhere...

> If Lilith were truly the hoodwinked innocent you imply that = she is=20 here,
> she'd have Redeemed by now. Lord knows that umpteen = dozen=20 Bright Daughters
> of hers are sufficient proof of concept to show = her=20 that it is possible to
> do so.

> Nope. Lilith still chooses to stay with Hell, 'cause = Hell gives=20 her what
> she wants and Heaven don't. Selfish as the rest = of=20 'em.

Well those arguments don't really work = because=20 she's human. She can't be destroyed by the light of heaven. She can't = really=20 fall or redeem. Well she can in that she's turned away from God/Original = Sin=20 sense of the term, but in IN, at least for celestials, its not the same = thing.=20 All it would take for her to redeem...in IN terms, would be for her to = decide to=20 promote the positive aspects of her word exclusively, "Serve" both = creation and=20 humanity in the generally positive way that the Host does, goto a = tether,=20 ascend, find the nearest Archangel and beg for forgiveness in front of = the=20 Seraphim Council...possible, yes....but not very bloody likely...after = all these=20 years the one thing that she would have to get past more than anything=20 else....pride...

> Wrongo. That attitude does *not* = preclude=20 changes of allegiance -- if
> Lilith ever *wanted* to leave Hell, = at least=20 four Archangels we know would
> instantaneously volunteer as side = boys and=20 hold a parade, spreading flowers
> under her feet as she walked = through=20 the Pearly Gates.

ROFLAO...Dominic wouldn't welcome Dominic and = Eli...you=20 think they would be all happy, happy joy, joy over someone who has been = their=20 enemy since the FALL...ok...Eli, Novalis,Marc,and Yves would, but they = are all=20 peaceful faction...all the others wouldn't exactly be happy.

The last thing I have to say about Lilith and = how she=20 should be thought of comes from the CPG, pg. 8:

"Few Celestials appreciate the advantages of = being=20 human. Humans can allow themselves to be swept up by passion; they feel = more=20 deeply than most celestials. They never need fear that their unfettered = emotions=20 will alter their fundamental natures. Humans have complete FREEDOM to = act=20 selfishly or selflessly at will, to love one moment and hate the next, = to choose=20 virtue or vice as their mood suits them. It gives them a flexibility of = thought=20 unattainable by beings who can only relate to the Symphony through the = filter of=20 their resonance and Word."

- ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C00405.EC315EE0-- ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1772 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.