From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Aug 12 18:40:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18760 for ; Sat, 12 Aug 2000 18:40:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id SAA24019 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 12 Aug 2000 18:39:07 -0500 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 18:39:07 -0500 Message-Id: <200008122339.SAA24019@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1773 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, August 12 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1773 In this digest: IN> My take on Lilith Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> INC Update, Week of 8/13 Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith Re: IN> Lilith RE: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Redeeming a Demon/Corrupting an Angel IN> Interchangable words Re: IN> Interchangable words Re: IN> Interchangable words IN> Erik, Prince of Music Re: IN> Erik, Prince of Music Re: IN> Interchangable words RE: IN> Interchangable words Re: IN> Erik, Prince of Music Re: IN> Erik, Prince of Music ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 04:11:29 -0400 From: Tim Groth Subject: IN> My take on Lilith I have to agree with David, the "Poor Lilith, she deserves lots of Sympathy and is really pretty nifty keen if you take a look." stuff isn't very interesting. It might be better to rule in hell than serve in heaven, but when one compares serving in both places it become a pretty clear cut case. Especially for Lilith. She agreed to help demons out, in exchange for becoming a Demon Princess with a Word and the power that went with it. She became a mockery of Freedom by becoming a servant of Lucifer. Face it he may be a bit lax with other Renegades, even Renegade Princes (is there any canon info and what Lucifer did to try and stop Legion?) but Lilith is a different case. He broke Symphony rules to make her, he probably doesn't want her getting dissected by some interested party with more power than her. He definetly doesn't want the Host to get a look at her. Now I think that playing her as a snarling baby killing monster isn't very interesting. Presenting her as sympathetic so she can be more manipulative can make for a better game. She probably tries to distort people's image of the Eden experiement to make herself seem more sympathetic, young angels may even fall (or Fall) for it. Doesn't make her any nicer. Lilith is about as low as a human can go. Every person who turns away from their Destiny and dives head first into their Fate is following Lilith. She doesn't have to be more, or even as, unRedeemable as some other DPs (Baal is probably the most) but I don't see her as being very repentant. She told God where to shove his plan, and she's sticking to that. For all the times she acts sweet, and blaims not so sweet moments on PMS, she's just being manipulative. She's survived in hell a long time. Even if she started out somewhat naive or coerced she has to have been made into something less pleasent. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:04:14 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > 492 downright PMS-stricken*, OK. Assume the original deal between the Lightbringer and Lilith includes an internal supply of the ideal form of HRT. That deals with the ovulation business. The problem with failure to ovulate is stuff like osteoporosis - crumbly bones BAD for DP:) and getting exceptionally cranky with one's Lord and Master. >(* I'm female, I can get away with saying that.) Me too! (Some of this was Ashley's idea but we thought it was better for me to say it). Now, what level of Geas is the ideal form of HRT worth? Why sympathise with Lilith when Canon indicates that, maybe, we shouldn't? Well, apart from the fact that we can be as uncanonical as we chose in the privacy of our own homes, there is a reason. Despite the feminisation of Gabriel and other similar issues, as we've said in other contexts, there's a distinct lack of 'strong feminine' in IN. OK, that's true of a lot of other RPGs. I'm not talking Babes in Battle Armour here. In Nomine, when you strip it down, is based on some of the most paternalistic mythology humanity has ever accepted. One possible way out of this is to regard Lilith as the First Feminist and God's plan for her in regard to Adam as evidence that God does not like feminism. In a seriously low contrast campaign (and I like my contrast turned down to a barely perceptible blip) this becomes a real possibility. Are we talking Low Brightness when we start thinking about sympathy with Lucifer? Lucifer was the brightest of the Angels until he decided he didn't like being told what to do. Maybe self-determination IS the best path for humanity (and maybe that's why Michael is dubious of Yves' motivation). Maybe Hell is only an unpleasant place in which to be when you're dead because it's on a war footing. Maybe, if Lucifer wins the war, he'll hand out the promised rewards (but, right now, he needs the essence for the war effort). Hilary (probably playing an Haballah in services to Yves - what me? You KNOW I'm on the right side really....) Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 08:23:37 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> INC Update, Week of 8/13 At 11:38 PM 8/11/00, you wrote: >Where are you putting the stuff from the old updates? They aren't in any >of the sections, and using the search engine turns up nothing. We've secretly replaced the old INC updates with new Folger's Crystals. Let's see if anybody notices. (Actually, I was stupid and forgot to upload the updated section pages. As for the search.. I'll look into that. The pages from the old updates really are there, just not linked to anything... yet.) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 08:49:27 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? Prodigal wrote: > Which was still more than God did. So? She succumbed to immediate gratification. Since when does God pat *anyone* on the head to soothe their bruised ego? I fail to see how this justifies Lilith's selling out humanity. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 08:53:49 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prodigal" To: Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 1:57 AM Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > From: "Charles Glasgow" > > > > > > And who was it that inspired her original grievances? > > > > Your original implication was that Lilith was coerced into joining the > > side of Hell. > No, it was not. - --------- Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:52:45 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "David Edelstein" > > But anyone > else who makes the mistake of sympathizing with Lilith is forgetting > 20,000+ years of conscious, deliberate alliance with Lucifer and > conspiracy against God, Heaven, and humanity. Or 20,000+ years of trying to avoid being destroyed by the forces of both Heaven and the more hostile parts of Hell. A total lack of sympathy is as huge a mistake as you claim sympathy is. > She ain't no victim. She could be. - ------------- > > > Hell *did* show her more respect... *shrugs* > > > > So? > > > > All you're affirming here is that Lilith freely chose to work with Hell. > > Because Hell treated her better than Heaven ever did, yes. You now concede that she freely chose to work with Hell? *Why* Lilith stays in Hell is irrelevant. (And given that the reason she stays in Hell is "There's more in it for me", she can't even lay claim to misguided idealistic motives.) *What* Lilith is doing is freely choosing to work with the side of Hell. Given that Lilith is freely choosing to work with Hell and stay with Hell -- out of purely selfish motives -- then she deserves no sympathy and no especial consideration. However "binary" my attitude might be, there is this element of truth in it -- this is a war, and she's a willing combatant for one side. Ergo, she's a legitimate target of war for the other side. And given that Lilith is one of the most selfish beings in creation, and serves the most evil being in creation solely because she thinks she's getting a better deal out of it -- given that she's pretty much the epitome of the "Hooray for me and fuck everyone else!" attitude -- where does she deserve sympathy? Talking about how much of a 'bad deal' she got back in Eden or how naive she was then does nothing to excuse what she's continuing to do now. That's like saying "Your Honor, I know my client shot 47 people from the clock tower, but he was spoken to very rudely as a child, so you should acquit him." - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 09:02:53 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilith > Sean Gallagher wrote: > The Second and definite more complicated possibility is that > Lilith is still in fact very human. It has been stated in either the > CPG or the GMG that a human (saint, soldier, etc) is able to get a > choir resonance by receiving a force from the appropriate choir or > band. Incorrect. A human is able to get a Choir or Band *Attunement* by giving him a Force from the appropriate Choir or Band, but he explicitly *cannpt* get a resonance, nor can he get any Choir/Band Attunement which is resonance-restricted. > When thinking about this one has to consider the circumstances > surrounding Lilith. She has had contact with very few beings at this > point. She has interacted with God, who created her and then wanted > her to be the wife of Adam, which in her mind entitled servitude, Actually, we don't know how much contact she had with others, or how long she was in the Garden of Eden before she rebelled. Remember that in IN, Adam and Eve (and Lilith) were _not_ the first humans. > Adam, who also wished to enslave her, That's Lilith's version. I think it unlikely, myself. > Selfish or not, who wouldn't go for that deal? No doubt Lucifer did seduce Lilith. But I don't buy that he's kept her in thrall for 20,000 years and she never had a chance to think for herself and consider the consequences of her actions. > And I'll have to lean > towards Beth's explanation of her since then...you have to remember, > she is human...how many women, or men for that matter, have spent > months, years, or decades in bad relationships? (a) This is still Lilith's version. (b) Even if true, being in a bad relationship doesn't justify your hurting other people. To make the analogy even tighter, I don't excuse a woman who abuses her kids because her husband/father/mother/whoever abused her. > Like I said, considering that she never had the up closer and > personals with God the way the Archangels of old did, and her limited > experience with God, why would she want to change? Obviously, she doesn't. She has freely chosen selfishness. > And even assuming> she wanted to change, people stay in relationships they know are bad > for them on the simply premise that the love the other person, or its > just easier than being alone And when that leads them to commit crimes on behalf of their beloved, they are held responsible. > ROFLAO...Dominic wouldn't welcome Dominic and Eli... Dominic wouldn't welcome Dominic? As for Eli, Dominic would surely welcome Eli if he came back to Heaven and said "Sorry I've been such a slacker lately, but I'm ready to get back to work." (Sure, he'd still keep an eye on Eli, but as long as his resonance told him that Eli was sincere, he'd accept genuine repentance. Just as he would from any demon, or Lilith.) > you think they > would be all happy, happy joy, joy over someone who has been their > enemy since the FALL...ok...Eli, Novalis,Marc,and Yves would, but they > are all peaceful faction...all the others wouldn't exactly be happy. Yes they would. IMO, every angel celebrates when a demon redeems. How much moreso when a Demon Princess redeems? (And looking at in purely pragmatic terms, think of how Michael and Laurence would salivate over the military intelligence Lilith could bring them!) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 09:09:38 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith > Like I said, considering that she never had the up closer and personals > with God the way the Archangels of old did, and her limited experience > with God, why would she want to change? And even assuming she > wanted to change, people stay in relationships they know are bad > for them on the simply premise that the love the other person, I think that IN has pretty much made it plain that Lilith loves only one person -- Lilith. She's the ultimate "But what's in it for *me*?" and "Yeah, yeah, what have you done for me *lately*?" personality. > or its just easier than being alone...she's seen what's happened to many of her > daughters when they've tried to goto the other side, Are you referring to the Game? > what's to keep that from happening to her? As I explained, Lilith can manifest on Earth with *no* disturbance to the Symphony. She can be up, over, across, and negotiating for asylum within a Heavenly tether before Asmodeus knows what's up. (Asmodeus is *used* to not knowing where Lilith is or what she's doing, the Princess of Freedom routinely spends as much time ducking surveillance as she can. He hates it, but he no longer considers it any especial cause for alarm -- 'So Lilith isn't in the Guildhall today? Harrumph. Off on a junket again, most likely. She'll turn up.') [snip] > Nope. Lilith still chooses to stay with Hell, 'cause Hell gives her what > she wants and Heaven don't. Selfish as the rest of 'em. > Well those arguments don't really work because she's human. 'Scuse me? All you're arguing here is that it's *easier* for Lilith to switch sides than any other demon -- because as you point out, Lilith has nada to worry about re: failed Redemption attempts. > She can't be destroyed by the light of heaven. She can't really fall or redeem. She can, however, pick her side. [snip] > > Wrongo. That attitude does *not* preclude changes of allegiance -- if > > Lilith ever *wanted* to leave Hell, at least four Archangels we know would > > instantaneously volunteer as side boys and hold a parade, spreading flowers > > under her feet as she walked through the Pearly Gates. > ROTFLMAO...Dominic wouldn't welcome Dominic and .. Dominic is the ultimate Seraph. If she really wanted to switch sides -- well, the sponsorship of Novalis, Yves, et al *will* keep her around long enough for her to get a chance to speak her pace. "... and in conclusion, let me say that I'm really sorry, that Hell sucks, that I've been on the wrong side all this time, and that I want to finally come in from the cold." *Seraph resonance pings* "She's telling the truth." *Malakite resonance pings* "Most honorable deed in the past week -- seeking Redemption." "Could she be deceiving us?" "I don't think even Lilith's got the kind of power it takes to spoof ECM on Dominic, Michael, Laurence, and David simultaneously -- on the floor of the Seraphim Council -- do you?" "It's not likely." > Eli...you think they would be all happy, happy joy, joy over someone who has been > their enemy since the FALL... Superiors 1 goes into detail on David's, Laurence's, Dominic's, and Michael's attitudes towards demons seeking Redemption. It varies from "Give them a chance but watch 'em like a hawk" to "You wanna Redeem? One down for Hell, one up for us! If you're honest, welcome aboard!" BTW, re: Dominic -- note that it's unjust to turn away someone genuinely seeking Redemption, and that Dominic's dissonance conditions are equally as much strict about "The punishment being too excessive for the crime" as they are about "Let no heresy pass unchallenged." > Eli, Novalis,Marc,and Yves would, but they are all peaceful faction...all the others wouldn't exactly be happy. Assuming that she was honest (and as the most powerful Seraph in creation, he'll *know* if she's honest or not) Michael would be turning cartwheels with excitement. Lilith flipping sides -- yet still retaining the *tons* of Geas she has all over Hell, even on fellow Princes -- would be the greatest strategic boon to Heaven ever known, and Michael would be drooling at the chance to turn Freedom against her former masters. Michael *likes* seeing demons Redeem. It simultaneously reduces the strength of Hell, increases the strength of Heaven, *and* provides Heaven with invaluable data and opportuntities -- defecting enemy officers are a *coup*. Defecting enemy *flag* officers are a *real* fun time. > > The last thing I have to say about Lilith and how she should be thought of comes from the CPG, pg. 8: >"Few Celestials appreciate the advantages of being human. Humans can > allow themselves to be swept up by passion; they feel more deeply than > most celestials. They never need fear that their unfettered emotions will > alter their fundamental natures. Humans have complete FREEDOM to act > selfishly or selflessly at will, to love one moment and hate the next, to choose > virtue or vice as their mood suits them. It gives them a flexibility of thought > unattainable by beings who can only relate to the Symphony through the filter > of their resonance and Word." Actually, this is more of a damnation of Lilith than anything I've said. Because, as this just pointed out, Lilith can choose to walk away from Hell far more *easily* than any other demon that's ever Redeemed. But she doesn't. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:24:13 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: RE: IN> Lilith? > > Lilith *rejected* God's plan for her. As did Lucifer, rejecting > God's plan > for humanity. That's why they're among the Fallen, and that's why they're > no longer trusted. Did she reject God's plan, indeed? Hm. I was under the impression that God was ineffable. Or was that Yves? Lilith's behaviour could well be within God's plan. Even in a high-contrast, bright campaign. After all, we don't know what God's plan *is*. Nor do the angels, nor the demons. Everyone's taking their best guess. Free will, anyone? Ki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:38:03 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "Charles Glasgow" > > > > > > All you're affirming here is that Lilith freely chose to work with Hell. > > > > Because Hell treated her better than Heaven ever did, yes. > > You now concede that she freely chose to work with Hell? She may have. Or she may have been fast-talked into it by a being who was able to convince an entire third of the forces of Heaven into following him.* > *Why* Lilith stays in Hell is irrelevant. No, it bloody well is not. > Given that Lilith is freely choosing to work with Hell and stay with Hell -- > out of purely selfish motives Proof, please. *The word I originally used was "seduced," Charles, which the last I checked was *not* the same thing as "coerced." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 10:39:33 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "David Edelstein" > Prodigal wrote: > > Which was still more than God did. > > So? She succumbed to immediate gratification. No, she refused to be a slave. It's at least as legitimate an interpretation as yours. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 11:13:13 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prodigal" To: Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 10:38 AM Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > From: "Charles Glasgow" > > > > All you're affirming here is that Lilith freely chose to work with > > > > Hell. > > > Because Hell treated her better than Heaven ever did, yes. > > > > You now concede that she freely chose to work with Hell? > > She may have. Or she may have been fast-talked into it by a being who was > able to convince an entire third of the forces of Heaven into following > him.* That explains why she initially joined. It doesn't explain why she's still there. If Lilith was the innocent hoodwinked, Lilith is *not* so stupid as to have never grown out of it -- especially given that as of now, she's one of the most sophisticates of the circuit. (For crying out loud, she's one of the Shal-Mari princes. She can do business partnerships with Mammon and not lose her shirt. She can spar with Marc across the negotiating table and at lesat force a draw. She can survive alive and free in the middle of over a dozen major Demon Princes who'd give their eyeteeth to enslave her, and skillfully play every faction of Hell off against every other one and never ever get tied down. And this is the person who's supposed to be staying in Hell to this day because she's *naive*?) > > *Why* Lilith stays in Hell is irrelevant. > > No, it bloody well is not. It darn sure is. The questions here are "Which side is Lilith on?" and "Is she being forced to stay on it against her consent?" The answers are "Hell" and "No". She's one of Heaven's foes, and deserves no especial treatment over any of the rest of them. > > Given that Lilith is freely choosing to work with Hell and stay with > > Hell -- out of purely selfish motives > > Proof, please. Her default writeup in the IN core rules. Lilith serves Lucifer because she can get closer to getting what she wants in Hell than she can in Heaven, or anywhere else. Lilith has *no* selfless motives. Her own self-preservation, her own freedom of movement, her own freedom to do whatever Lilith wants whenever Lilith wants to... all of these are highly self-oriented motives. IOW, she's as selfish as the rest of 'em. > *The word I originally used was "seduced," Charles, which the last I checked > was *not* the same thing as "coerced." In this situation, "seduced" breaks down into one of two options: a) Lilith saw that Hell was offering a deal she liked better, and chose it: This means: a1) Lilith willingly serves Hell, motivated by her own gain. OR... b) Lilith was lied to so successfully that she didn't have a chance vs. the First Balseraph, who manipulated her like a puppet. And *this* means: b1) Lilith was effectively coerced into signing on. So if it's b), then you were indeed saying what I thought you were saying. Of course, it's a), then I'm right all over again, 'cause a) is what *I've* been saying all along. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 12:00:52 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? Prodigal wrote: > > So? She succumbed to immediate gratification. > > No, she refused to be a slave. That's her version. > It's at least as legitimate an interpretation as yours. Only if you're playing a very dark game, such that you accept the premise that God wanted to enslave Lilith. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 11:51:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Redeeming a Demon/Corrupting an Angel - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > Blandine is likely to reward as faithfully as Novalis in my opinion > isn't she? Depends. Redeeming a demon isn't likely to impress Blandine as much as doing something really big that helps humans... the good of mortals means more to her than celestial politics. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "If all the world's a stage, where does the audience sit?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 16:13:26 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Interchangable words Okay the subject of Words has arisen again and I was curious if I might add my two cents on why it may become necessary for Archangels and Demon Princes to keep their "higher up" status when they move over to the other side (as rare as that occurs). For instance: Lauren from (Night Music) as I just said in my game is moving over from being a Demon to being an Angel. She is the word bound Demon of Strippers and it is part of who she is....however given the ambigious nature of the word Novalis sponsors that she be allowed to keep the word. Now as the angel of strippers Lauren the Mercurian is devoted to protecting those in the "trade" from the explotation of people like Andreaphalus and trying to elevate it instead to an Art which pleases Eli and Novalis immensley (probably Janus too but that's just because he's a frat boy). While likely making Laurence and Dominic peery. By this recknoning the side your on has no affect whatsoever on the word you possess, you simply promote it in tune with your resonance. Thus if Fufur redeemed (not impossible if he finds out Heaven can kick *ss better than hell) or Jack the Shedim of Serial killers then both would maintain their words; they'd just have figure out how to put them to heavengly use which may cause their words to drop greatly in power or seem REALLY strange. Though an Angel of Child Molestation might actually be devoted to promoting awareness of it and ultimately removing it, like David's Angel of Abortion. This actually brings up quite a few questions about Druiel in fact (aside from the fact whether he's royally dissonant for serving Christopher) because what does being the Angel of Teenage Death imply...that he IS supposed to warn them about or to protect them against it or just enforce it? - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 17:18:53 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Interchangable words At 04:13 PM 8/12/00, you wrote: >CAN remove words Lucifer bestowed and vice versa> A Seraph arrives in Heaven, his feathers matted and dull, skin lifeless and almost hanging off his body, looking glum and disheartened. He's obviously a powerful angel, but somehow, something seems ... lacking. A Malakite slowly approaches the Seraph, who is making his way toward the heart of the Eternal City. He thinks he might recognize the bedraggled angel, but isn't sure... "Sir?" he asks, in a voice full of fear and despair. The Seraph nods. "Brother, what happened?" asks the Archangel of the Sword. Michael looks up at Laurence, eyes glittering with sadness and mute, impotent fury. "Lucifer ... removed my Word." In other words, not anywhere within forty dimensions of MY campaign, no. ;) - -EDG You lose your Word when you Fall or Redeem. GMG? Or is that core rules? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 16:35:06 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Interchangable words EDG wrote: > You lose your Word when you Fall or Redeem. GMG? Or is that core rules? I think the GMG says so explicitly. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 18:56:20 -0400 From: EDG Subject: IN> Erik, Prince of Music Erik, Habbalite Prince of Music "I am your angel of music... come to me, Angel of Music..." Erik was born and raised a Habbalite of Dark Humor. One of his greatest thrills was the theater, especially vaudeville - making people laugh at each other was one thing, but seeing them do it to /themselves/ was downright inspiring. He tried to see each vaudeville act at least once, and did his best to use his resonance creatively, to inspire other people to join the show. It came, appropriately, during a show in the early 19th century that Erik first botched a resonance roll and was forced to take the emotion upon himself. If the emotion had been anything other than Emptiness, and the act on stage anything other than an interlude, a melancholy ballad telling of an Irish girl who killed her family and herself, Erik might have gone in other directions and become the Demon of Slapstick. As it was, though, the Habbalite found himself touched by the music, and thereafter he started to focus on the musical aspects of theater, and music in general. The Paris Opera House incident is perhaps Erik's best-known stunt, and certainly the one that caught Lucifer's attention. After his underground citadel was breached, Erik fled to Hell, and was met by not only Kobal but the Prince of Lies, who granted Erik the Word of Music on the spot. Glowing with pride, Erik returned to Earth - to find that the Opera House had become a Tether to his Word, growing with every performance. Soon he found other Tethers - a Kabuki theatre in Japan, a certain section of the Baltimore harbor (still one of Kobal's all-time favorite Tethers - "Use this one, there's a pool") - and the power of his Word steadily grew. The combination of records and radio, allowing music to be easily distributed to the masses, drove his Word into that of a Superior, and Erik closely followed Nybbas into Princedom. Erik's Word encompasses all forms of musical expression, but his fondness is still for musical theater; on the corporeal plane, you'll usually find him in an opera or a playhouse, and he still always catches every new musical to come out. Dissonance Demons of Music must meditate for at least one hour out of each day, listening to music. Band Attunements None of these attunements apply to Songs unless specifically noted. Balseraphs (restricted): Balseraphs of Music gain bonuses to their resonance in two circumstances. First, they may automatically succeed in an attempt to convince someone that they've heard a particular piece of music before (or have not heard it before), though they should still roll to get the check digit. Second, they gain +3 to their Will for any attempt to convince a victim that he (the victim) wrote a particular piece of music. Djinn (restricted): Erik's Djinn can use his Backstage Pass attunement (see below) to gain access to a musician to whom he's attuned at any time - not just at a concert or performance. Calabim: Calabim serving Music can, once a day, emit a piercing, cacophonic scream that deafens anyone (excluding the Calabite) within a number of meters equal to his Celestial Forces times 10, and lowers the Perception of anyone for a further (Celestial Forces times 20) meters by 3, for the next 24 hours. Habbalah: A Habbalite of Music can spur musicians on to greater works - not just composing, but performing - with a Will roll, the check digit representing the bonus to the victim's target number the next time he tries to apply his art, but does Mind Hits to the victim equal to the demon's Celestial Forces every time he does so. (Note that this does apply to the performance of Songs!) Lilim (partially restricted): Lilim of Music can always see how to make someone into a musical celebrity. Treat this as a Need of the appropriate level (according to the difficulty of the task), which inflicts the appropriate geas-hook if fulfilled. A non-Lilim taking this attunement may use the first part, but not the second. Shedim: Shedim in service to Erik may take over musical instruments, animating them in the classic "haunted violin" style. Recently, they have also gained the ability to possess not only stereo systems, but the sound systems of computers, to achieve the same effect. Impudites: Erik's Takers are groupies one and all, and can attune to musicians much as Djinn do - one of these attunements lasts until the Impudite severs it, though they can only attune to one at a time. Additionally, he must make a Will roll to break an attunement, taking a note of dissonance whether or not he fails! This attunement allows the demon to know not only where the musician is, but also the fastest way to reach him. Servitor Attunements Backstage Pass: To a demon with this attunement, security measures at a concert or musical performance are nonexistent. Guards smile and wave the user through, locks come unfastened at his touch, and - oddly enough - cameras don't pick him up at all. Soundtrack: This mimics Nybbas's attunement of the same name. Orchestra Hit: By spending 4 Essence, a demon with this attunements causes every musical instrument in the room he's in to sound at once, with varying notes, to create an instant of total cacophony - not only in the audible range, but in the Symphony as well. This does nothing to humans but give them a headache, but any celestial in the room - including the user - suffers a note of dissonance from the Symphonic backlash. Superior Relations: Allied: Nybbas (Nybbas and Kobal are Allied to Erik) Associated: Kobal, Vapula, Lilith Neutral: Everybody else, except: Hostile: Saminga Rites: - - Play a musical instrument well (check digit 3 or better) - - Be present when a composer finishes a major composition - - Play a musical instrument excellently (check digit 6 or better) (+2) Chance of Invocation: 3 Only servitors of Music may summon Erik. All other attempts fail - /usually/. See below. Invocation Modifiers: For whatever reason, Erik likes Gilbert and Sullivan. Though invocation of the Prince of Music is normally limited to his servitors alone - he simply will not respond to anyone who isn't a demon of Music - /anyone/ can attract his attention if they are witnessing a performance of The Pirates of Penzance (even angels - even /humans/!), as though they were one of his servitors, and his servitors get a +5 bonus. +1: a violin +2: a struggling band +3: a successful minor composer +4: a successful band +5: a Stradivarius in perfect condition +6: John Williams +12: during the performance of "I Am The Very Model Of A Modern Major-General" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 18:17:19 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Erik, Prince of Music - ----- Original Message ----- From: "EDG" To: Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 5:56 PM Subject: IN> Erik, Prince of Music > Erik, Habbalite Prince of Music [snip] > Servitor Attunements [snip] > Orchestra Hit: By spending 4 Essence, a demon with this attunements causes > every musical instrument in the room he's in to sound at once, with varying > notes, to create an instant of total cacophony - not only in the audible > range, but in the Symphony as well. This does nothing to humans but give > them a headache, but any celestial in the room - including the user - > suffers a note of dissonance from the Symphonic backlash. I think that it's just plain Not Fair to create an attunement that can give dissonance to a Celestial entirely against its will, with not even a "saving throw" (as an AD&D'er would put it.) (And if there's already something out there that can do that... well, color me ignorant, and I'm most likely not gonna be too fond of it either.) Especially since that the "note of dissonance on the wielder" isn't really that much of a restriction -- any Superior who creates an Attunement that is *designed* to give the wielder dissonance would quite likely be more generous than usual about removing that particular note of Dissonance from his Servitors. And on angels, it's even worse -- you risk Falling anytime you pick up a note of dissonance past your first. What's to stop some servitor of Erik from slapping an angel six times in rapid succession, racking up six notes on both himself and his target? Grave risk of Falling for the angel, and six notes to get stripped from the Servitor as soon as Erik goes "OK, mission accomplished, you made that ultra-pure-never-did-a-dissonant-thing-in-his-life Seraph of Laurence's go Balseraph in only 2.7 minutes! A new record!" - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 20:02:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Interchangable words On Sat, 12 Aug 2000, Charles Phipps wrote: > Lauren from (Night Music) as I just said in my game is moving over from > being a Demon to being an Angel. She is the word bound Demon of Strippers > and it is part of who she is....however given the ambigious nature of the > word Novalis sponsors that she be allowed to keep the word. > > CAN remove words Lucifer bestowed and vice versa> You're actually backwards. If you fall or redeem, you LOSE your word. Period. If Novalis chooses to immediately *sponsor* Lauren for the word of Strippers, it makes perfect sense, since she knows the word inside and out already, and wouldn't need to adjust much. But she does NOT arrive at Heaven with a Word. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 18:18:18 -0700 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: RE: IN> Interchangable words On Sat, 12 Aug 2000, Charles Phipps wrote: > Lauren from (Night Music) as I just said in my game is moving over from > being a Demon to being an Angel. She is the word bound Demon of Strippers > and it is part of who she is....however given the ambigious nature of the > word Novalis sponsors that she be allowed to keep the word. > > CAN remove words Lucifer bestowed and vice versa> You're actually backwards. If you fall or redeem, you LOSE your word. Period. If Novalis chooses to immediately *sponsor* Lauren for the word of Strippers, it makes perfect sense, since she knows the word inside and out already, and wouldn't need to adjust much. But she does NOT arrive at Heaven with a Word. IKC: Lauren was sponsored for the Word of "Erotic Dance" by Eli's seneschal with the support of Novalis and a couple of others after Eli redeemed her... She got it also. The Other David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 11:38:07 +1200 (NZST) From: Keith Bolland Subject: Re: IN> Erik, Prince of Music On Sat, 12 Aug 2000, EDG wrote: > For whatever reason, Erik likes Gilbert and Sullivan. Though invocation of > the Prince of Music is normally limited to his servitors alone - he simply > will not respond to anyone who isn't a demon of Music - /anyone/ can > attract his attention if they are witnessing a performance of The Pirates > of Penzance (even angels - even /humans/!), as though they were one of his > servitors, and his servitors get a +5 bonus. You realise I'm going to be stuck with this image of Baal prancing around the stage in uniform singing "I Am The Very Model Of A Modern Demon General" with a backing chorus of Calabim for -ages-, now? Other than that, I like this guy a lot. //-- <*> Keith Bolland --------------------------------------- // "Life isn't fair. But the root password helps." -- The BOFH ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 19:38:24 -0700 From: Rolland Therrien Subject: Re: IN> Erik, Prince of Music - -----Original Message----- From: EDG To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Saturday, August 12, 2000 4:05 PM Subject: IN> Erik, Prince of Music [Snips just about everything, to avoid the "Too Many Quotes" remark again] No offense, but this prince doesn't sound too Demonic... He's a patron of music, ok... But how does that serve Hell? As written, Erik sounds more like an Archangel then a Prince. Now, if Erik was the Demon of Music Producers, then he'd be hellish. He could be a servitor of the Media, in charge of making sure that the Music business is kept as business-like as possible. He would be in charge of exploiting musical trends as much as possible, milking each musical style for what it's worth (He's presently responsible for the huge rash of "Boys Bands" out there right now). - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1773 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.