From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Aug 13 10:13:33 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15648 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:13:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id KAA18315 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:11:20 -0500 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:11:20 -0500 Message-Id: <200008131511.KAA18315@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1774 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, August 13 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1774 In this digest: Re: IN> Erik, Prince of Music Re: IN> Erik, Prince of Music Re: IN> Lilith? IN> Freedom, Creation and the second revolt Re: IN> Lilith? IN> Hal, demon of Flame War Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Erik, Prince of Music Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? IN> A Lilith portrait Re: IN> Freedom, Creation and the second revolt Re: IN> Lilith? IN> Yeeeeesh... IN> Re: erik Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Hal, demon of Flame War Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 19:33:22 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Erik, Prince of Music At 07:17 PM 8/12/00, you wrote: >I think that it's just plain Not Fair to create an attunement that can give >dissonance to a Celestial entirely against its will, with not even a "saving >throw" (as an AD&D'er would put it.) I thought long and hard about that attunement, and in retrospect I might have made it a little too inexpensive; it might be better to make it 5 or 6 Essence. I also might have put this in: "(Angels who are caught in the blast are just as susceptible as anyone else - - but they have a defense that most don't know about. If the angel is lucky, and gets off a successful resonance roll within a number of seconds equal to the demon's Celestial Forces times 10, the note of dissonance will be removed as he reasserts his connection with the Symphony.)" >Especially since that the "note of dissonance on the wielder" isn't really >that much of a restriction -- any Superior who creates an Attunement that is >*designed* to give the wielder dissonance would quite likely be more >generous than usual about removing that particular note of Dissonance from >his Servitors. This was something I actually forgot about when I wrote Erik up: "Erik will NOT remove the dissonance incurred by this attunement; neither will working it off in a Tether of Music work at all. Other Tethers might successfully remove the dissonance. There are, of course, measures to prevent taking the dissonance - but only Erik and a few high-ranking demons know them." >And on angels, it's even worse -- you risk Falling anytime you pick up a >note of dissonance past your first. What's to stop some servitor of Erik >from slapping an angel six times in rapid succession, racking up six notes >on both himself and his target? Grave risk of Falling for the angel, and >six notes to get stripped from the Servitor as soon as Erik goes "OK, >mission accomplished, you made that >ultra-pure-never-did-a-dissonant-thing-in-his-life Seraph of Laurence's go >Balseraph in only 2.7 minutes! A new record!" Actually, angels get outcast when they fail their dissonance rolls, and they're designed to not fail until 3 notes - at which point they can convert to Discord. Also, consider that at its current cost, even an 18-Force demon could only use the attunement 4 times in a row without having to recharge. ("But you have to roll under the number of dissonance on one of three dice in order to fail, and it's possible to roll under a two!" "Right - and what happens when an angel rolls three 1s?") - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 19:46:21 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Erik, Prince of Music At 10:38 PM 8/12/00, you wrote: >No offense, but this prince doesn't sound too Demonic... Consider: Erik is a Habbalite. He really, really, really thinks he's an angel. So he's going to try to advance his Word as much as possible. He's also /really/ a demon, and a demon of punishment. This kind of thing comes out even through the Habbalite worldview. So he's going to act in a way that advances his Word while hurting as many humans - weak, piteous creatures that they are - as possible. (Except for Gilbert and Sullivan.) Remember that while Erik supports Carousel, he also supports GWAR; while supporting Yanni, he also supports Ozzy Osborne. And he understands just how easily music can be used to hurt people, to punish them. And yet he loves it with all his demonic heart, and he'll be in a soundproof, impregnable booth with the souls of Charlie Parker and Wagner, listening to the Marriage of Figaro, while Armageddon destroys the world around him and his Servitors scour the Earth with speakers at ten thousand decibels. - -EDG (I know, that wasn't really coherent. /I'm/ not really coherent. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 01:32:12 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? Ok, let's try to get things clear, and hopefully without flame... Lilith (a human) chose to walk She chose to join Lightbringer She could unchose at any time (geas' permitting). As a human would she be allowed to redeem? As a Demon Princess she might be, but she is still human. Does Heaven allow Humanity to become Archangels? Now on the choice. How much freedom does she have in Hell? Potentially quite a lot, Hell is a place where the free market has no control. The sneak, the bully, the schemer, the astute, can all rise to the top just as long as they are dirty and smart enough, and have the currency to do so. As I said just like the free market. The watch word here is free. How much freedom would she have in Heaven? How much freedom does the Hyena allow? Nil. Why do you think Eli walked? Heaven is about control, it is a rigid heirarchy where only those who comply get anywhere. Heaven is Bureaucracy gone mad, and it will not change. Bottom line, Freedom and Heavan are anathema. And this is assuming she would survive the redemption process which is far from certain (oh, and any trial Dominic might set up). Which leads me to some thoughts on Freedom Ashley Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 01:34:21 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: IN> Freedom, Creation and the second revolt Eli waited patiently, the pale light of dawn illuminating the ancient stones. He could sense the Ethereal spirits close by, gathering to enter the corporeal. Beyond the stones a few gathered, the Free, they too waiting for the sign. Odin watched carefully. The deal had been made,her treasures moved to safety and her daughters hearts secure in the far Marches. Next to Odin stood Brigid and Athena, they too were part of this. All had hoped Vishnu and others would have chosen to join, maybe soon. Eli stood as she approached. Lilith grasps his hands, said "Friend, there is no going back now." She looked around at the gathering, mostly her daughters, too few she thought to herself, too few for the task. Eli saw her uncertainty, felt her pain. He know the truth, that freedom has its cost. Like her he hoped that others would come. They did. Odin, Athena and Brigid first, behind them came the Sidhe. Almost collectively they stated, "We have returned, and we intend to stay." Lilith made the call. Instantly the message landed on every desk of every Archangel and Demon Prince. It was simple enough for even the most deranged to understand. 'I Lilith have walked. I am free. I rejected Heaven, now I reject Hell. There is an alternative, you can join us.' At the same time a second message landed on Dominic's desk. 'I will never return, you will never get your trial. But know this, Creation served to bring about that which you could not. The second revolt.' The Sidhe, the Free,and those few who still serve Creation formed a circle around the stones. Weapons glistened in the dawn. They waited for the response. They all knew the die had been cast, there was no return, no way back. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 19:48:59 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Omentide" To: Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 7:32 PM Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? [snip] > How much freedom would she have in Heaven? How much freedom does the Hyena > allow? Nil. Nil freedom? Everybody must follow one plan? This must explain why the Seraphim Council has faction fights. > Why do you think Eli walked? Nobody knows. Unlike Lilith's motivations for staying in hell (which are right in her original writeup), Eli's motivations for leaving Heaven are CDaU. Unless I'm way off base. > Heaven is about control, it is a rigid heirarchy where only those who comply get anywhere. According to the Game's Balseraph propagandists, at least. > Heaven is Bureaucracy gone mad, and it will not change. Tell *that* one to servitors of Janus.. Any Heaven that has room enough in it for the Wind has room enough for Freedom. > Bottom line, Freedom and Heavan are anathema. > And this is assuming she would survive the redemption process which is far > from certain (oh, and any trial Dominic might set up). It is dissonant for Dominic to punish someone too harshly. Dominic is equally as unlikely to punish the innocent as he is to fail to punish the guilty. He's Judgement *Asmodeus* is the Game.. > Which leads me to some thoughts on Freedom In a just society, your freedom to throw a punch ends where someone else's nose begins. Lilith does *not* recognize that principle. To Lilith, Freedom is great... *for Lilith*. So long as Lilith is free to do whatever Lilith wants whenever Lilith might want to, she's happy. She is nowhere near as adamant about defending the Freedom of anyone *else*. Which explains why she's on the side that she's on. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 02:41:40 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: IN> Hal, demon of Flame War Hal, Habbalah demon of Flame War in service to Kobal A few year's back, it came to Gabriel's attention that there was this new thing called 'The Internet'. Whilst this new invention, on the whole, is used to facilitate communication between like-minded mortals and is, therefore, of no interest to Gabriel, she heard rumours (mostly emanating from Christopher) that it was used by some nefarious people to entrap youngsters. Gabriel pondered this, briefly. It seemed to her that it was most certainly possible that some very cruel people (and possibly other entities) were using this web thing to do all sorts of nasty stuff. She assigned Hal, an Elohite with a penchant for communications technology to Earth to watch over the thing and seek out and punish the cruel whenever they revealed themselves to him. Then she decided the Internet was very much Jean's affair and got interested in something else. Meanwhile Hal got on with his assignment. He'd been around for some time and was accustommed to Gabriel's manner. He knows she'll drop in to check up on him next time she remembers his existence and/or his assignment so he continues to carry it out with all the zeal at his disposal. He thinks he's doing pretty well. At first he found the task fairly boring. He surfed the net 24/7 and found it to be mostly full of harmless garbage, glaring colours and bad grammar. As an Elohite he could not help but find this mildly distasteful, but, objectively speaking, he couldn't really describe it as cruel. Things got a lot more fruitful when he started lurking mailing lists and other discussion groups. Fruitful, but somewhat depressing. It seemed to Hal that, whilst these groups were explicitly set up to facilitate the free exchange of ideas, their actual purpose was to enable mortals to misunderstand each other at every possible opportunity. Very rarely did he see as many as three posts in a row that could be interpreted as 'reasoned debate between persons with a shared interest'. Lurking any particular group for a couple of weeks enabled him to identify those specific individuals who had the greatest tendency to belittle the ideas of others, to cut them down, to criticise them on the grounds of deficiences in their powers of self-expression, to nitpick at what was basically a constructive idea. Unfortunately, due to the nature of the medium, it proved impossible to track these people down on the Corporeal. Hal's dissonance started to build up and, due to the fact that Gabriel seemed, temporarily 'distracted' and the social isolation from friends and colleagues that afflicts every creature who surfs the net 24 hours a day, seven days a week, he had no one to turn to. Hal, therefore, thought upon the problem and came up with his own solution. He stopped lurking egroups and started posting. His posts were directed and confined to dealing out pain to those who he believed derived pleasure from dealing out psychological and emotional pain through the nature of thier activity on the Internet. He made witty, poignant and deflating comments. He nitpicked constantly (much to the delight of a certain DP). And, at first, he never STARTED anything. Hal was proud of his work. So proud that he started to enjoy it. Furthermore, as many of those he flamed were sufficiently self-confident or arrogant enough to allow his postings to run off them like water off a duck's back, he gained dissonance by failing to punish the cruel. His postings, it seemed, only spurred them on to further efforts, attempting to make Hal, rather than the list-weaklings, their victim. To cut a long story short, he began to feel committed to what he was posting. He developed strong opinions which, increasingly, he would express spontaneously, rather than merely in order to cut cruel and thoughtless posters down to size. Thus Hal fell. Kobal still hasn't stopped laughing. That's why Hal is in his service (though Hal still believes he's in service to Gabriel). Kobal loved what Hal was doing so much that he proposed that Lucifer should grant Hal the word of Flame War. Lucifer got the joke and granted it (much to the disgust of Baal and Belial, which, after all, was part of why the joke is so funny). Hal still believes he's punishing the cruel for Gabriel. He makes it a point of principle to punish a minimum of 50 cruel posts per day. He is utterly convinced that, in the fulness of time, Gabriel will recognise the excellent work he is doing and reward him accordingly. Meanwhile, he is donating vast amounts of essence to the Demon Princess of Nitpicking. Kobal has convinced her to share some of this essence with him on the grounds that the vast majority of list members find flame wars vastly amusing in a very dark sort of a way. It is, after all, only the participants who really suffer. Hal is only vaguely aware that he's wordbound, but he does have one rite (which he could grant if he ever got around to it). Every time someone posts a cruel or thoughtless reply to a message on the list that hurts the feelings of the original poster, Hal gets essence. Most of which gets siphoned off immediately by Beth or Kobal. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 02:50:51 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? >. He's Judgement Judgement is not the same as Justice. >In a just society, your freedom to throw a punch ends where someone else's >nose begins. No. In a just society my freedom to throw a punch ends when I am unable to face the consequences of having done so. Were I capable of throwing a punch with any accuracy (which I am not) I would not hesitate to do so if it prevented the person the nose belonged to from harming a third party. >Lilith does *not* recognize that principle. To Lilith, Freedom is >great... *for Lilith*. So long as Lilith is free to do whatever Lilith >wants whenever Lilith might want to, she's happy. She is nowhere near as >adamant about defending the Freedom of anyone *else*. Have a look at Lilith's rites (on pg. 150 of the original source book) then run that past me again, please. Hilary Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 20:56:56 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Omentide" To: Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 8:50 PM Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > > >. He's Judgement > > Judgement is not the same as Justice. > > >In a just society, your freedom to throw a punch ends where someone else's > >nose begins. > > No. In a just society my freedom to throw a punch ends when I am unable to > face the consequences of having done so. Were I capable of throwing a punch > with any accuracy (which I am not) I would not hesitate to do so if it > prevented the person the nose belonged to from harming a third party. Lilith doesn't recognize this principle either. Could somebody please give me any evidence that Lilith is not a *severely* selfish little being? > >Lilith does *not* recognize that principle. To Lilith, Freedom is > >great... *for Lilith*. So long as Lilith is free to do whatever Lilith > >wants whenever Lilith might want to, she's happy. She is nowhere near as > >adamant about defending the Freedom of anyone *else*. > > Have a look at Lilith's rites (on pg. 150 of the original source book) then > run that past me again, please. Went, looked, wasn't impressed. Lilith encourages anarchy and overthrow on Earth 'cause it pays the Essence bills, and 'cause it keeps the rest of Hell off her back re: "not being Diabolic enough". If it were a choice between helping somebody else be free or seriously inconviencing her little hinder, Lilith will pick herself every time. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 20:24:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Erik, Prince of Music To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Saturday, August 12, 2000 4:05 PM Subject: IN> Erik, Prince of Music >No offense, but this prince doesn't sound too >Demonic... He's a patron of music, ok... But how >does that serve Hell? As written, Erik sounds more >like an Archangel then a Prince. Mild agreement. I would diffidently suggest that you add a bit to Erik's dissonance requirements, forcing his demons to do something that fits in with their Superior's Habbalite nature. Possibly something along the lines of they might have to have at least one human "protege" at all times, who must be channeled into producing better and better music, even if it means the destruction of everything else they find important in life (or their life itself)? Or not. A Habbalite trying to promote music for what he thinks is God's Plan can be nasty enough on it's own. :) I'd also, even more diffidently, suggest making Erik killing-intolerant of more than two points of dissonance at any given time in his Servitors, or somebody with a habit of wracking it up ("How DARE you corrupt the Symphony in such a way?" - he _is_ a Habbalite, after all. Ignoring troublesome little contradictions is a way of life with them). It might keep down the multiple dissonance invoking problem mentioned earlier with that wossname Attunement / Distinction. All in all, I liked it quite a bit. "When a felon's not engaged in his employment..." ;) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Currently Serving at Grand Central Station Tether ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 8/7/00 (this is a guess) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 01:05:20 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "Charles Glasgow" > From: "Prodigal" > > > > She may have. Or she may have been fast-talked into it by a being who was > > able to convince an entire third of the forces of Heaven into following > > him.* > > That explains why she initially joined. It doesn't explain why she's still > there. Enough of both Heaven and Hell is ready to destroy her at a moment's notice if she leaves the security of her position behind to explain that. Or perhaps she's like any of the people who stay in abusive relationships in the non-game world. > And this > is the person who's supposed to be staying in Hell to this day because she's > *naive*?) No, but that's not a bad strawman. > > > *Why* Lilith stays in Hell is irrelevant. > > > > No, it bloody well is not. > > It darn sure is. No it is not, unless you want to reduce her to a two-dimensional cardboard cutout. > > *The word I originally used was "seduced," Charles, which the last I > checked > > was *not* the same thing as "coerced." > > In this situation, "seduced" breaks down into one of two options: > > a) Lilith saw that Hell was offering a deal she liked better, and chose it: > > This means: > > a1) Lilith willingly serves Hell, motivated by her own gain. > > OR... > > b) Lilith was lied to so successfully that she didn't have a chance vs. the > First Balseraph, who manipulated her like a puppet. > > And *this* means: > > b1) Lilith was effectively coerced into signing on. Wrong. Seduce: 1 : to persuade to disobedience or disloyalty 2 : to lead astray usually by persuasion or false promises 3 : to carry out the physical seduction of : entice to sexual intercourse 4 : ATTRACT synonym see LURE Coerce: 1 : to restrain or dominate by force 2 : to compel to an act or choice 3 : to bring about by force or threat synonym see FORCE Would you please TRY to stop putting words in my mouth, Charles? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 01:09:34 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "David Edelstein" > Prodigal wrote: > > > So? She succumbed to immediate gratification. > > > > No, she refused to be a slave. > > That's her version. Every version of the Lilith legend I have yet read has stated that it was Adam's demands that she be subservient to him that led to her walking out on him. So it would seem not to be just her version after all. > > It's at least as legitimate an interpretation as yours. > > Only if you're playing a very dark game, Or are willing to entertain any shades of gray whatsoever. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 02:01:09 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> A Lilith portrait Okay we've discussed Lilith to death but I haven't added my two cents so I thought I would. Lilith Demon Princess of Freedom Lilith was created along with Adam in the garden of Eden, the perfect woman to his perfect masculinity. Whether she left because Adam wanted her to subserviant to her, Because God ordered her to not to do anything, Because she was merely curious/restless about the outside world and Adam wasn't, or any other number of reasons is immaterial. In the end Lilith chose to leave the Garden against the wishes of both....embracing the outside world and her freedom to ignore God's order. In this time the Earth was a hideous place, the Ethereal Marches were not much better, and Lilith had a truly horrofic time of it not wanting to live under the "grace" of the Big Guy. She grew to view him as setting the rules for the world so that one had no CHOICE but to obey them or die suffering. Lilith learned to geas in this time I think so that she could survive....and thrive. While Eve was taking Lilith's destiny as ancestor of every Force 6 in the world, Lilith was becomming the first Sorceror....learning how to inflict her unbreakable will on a perfect Symphony. In my opinion when she stumbled on Hell or Hell stumbled on her she came face to face with the still beutiful Lightbringer Lucifer who explained in no small terms that God had imprisoned them here because of their rebellion against his orders. Whether Lucifer COULD affect Lilith's will is unknown but he certainly played her buttons right and she whether because of some divine sub clause ("Humans can invite demons to the Earth") or her great sorcery doesn't matter. Lilith brought Demons into the Ethereal marches and to the Earth. Lucifer owed Lilith big and promised therefore to give her a gift to match the gift she had given them and more....Lilith likely knew about words and when she was asked to become the embodiment of "Doing what you choose" she jumped at the oppurtunity. Now as anyone will note with Lilith's resonance she's a bit of a hypocrite, people can't choose to not follow up on her end of the bargain but it's a burden of necessity usually. Lilith on Hell Lilith doesn't like the majority of Hell's princes truly especially Asmodeus and Baal who are out and out hypocrites. Kronos I think she's the most actually afraid of because he represents more than anything "Consequences for your actions". Andre, Kobal, Nybbas, Haagenti, and Malphas in their less psychotic momments are more her speed. She does however believe in Hell's "stated" goal and that God is a tyrant out to force all these "rules" that make no sense to her. She also however realizes that the majority of Hell's followers are as loyal to the stated goal as the average politician is to his promises. Lucifer himself Lilith I think now is more than alittle afraid of because she can't tell whether he believes his own propaganda, is helping her, is manipulating her, or if she is free... Lilith on Heaven Lilith utterly despises God for creating consequences for actions and sin in my opinion. She doesn't quite buy into the whole "God is Love" Jesus thing people keep bringing up. Where is God after all when someone's on the verge of suicide (and not liking some people's answers to that). She thus doesn't like the guy at all and his "stated" platform of getting humanity to think one way. Dominic, Uriel, Khalid, Jean, and even Jordi make her gut sick. However she can't help but really LIKE Novalis, Eli (after he stopped being such a rules lawyer), Janus, Marc, and even Laurence since he started appreciating humanity's free will. These guys respect humanity and want them to choose their side with no stings attached plus are alot of fun. Thus it's the little angels and devils she likes the most. On Ethereals She brings up Uriel and these folk whenever someone goes on about heaven's goodness On Humanity She might have strangled babies of Eve and seduced young men but I'm pretty sure that she had a good reason to do it (or one of her followers did). Make no mistake like Lilith has screwed over the human race repeatably and willingly. She personally believes looking out for number one is the only way to survive in, and I quote, "God's deathtrap". However she loves the modern era and likely is softening her touch becuase she LOVES the princibles behind the Constitution, she activily worked against fascism-communism, and she promotes less laws is good. She doesn't hate humanity and wants them to be able to choose what they want to do...have fun even without some overlord whacking them in the back of the head. In other words Lilith is a very selfish creature that will gladly barter geases that may jeopadize the world yet she wants humanity and angels to be free (whatever side their one). If she loses her paranoia about God...I daresay she will be in deep trouble realizing the depths of her crimes... - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 01:25:57 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Freedom, Creation and the second revolt From: "Omentide" > > They all knew the die had been cast, there was no return, no way > back. Very nice, Ashley! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 01:31:54 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "Omentide" > > >Lilith does *not* recognize that principle. To Lilith, Freedom is > >great... *for Lilith*. So long as Lilith is free to do whatever Lilith > >wants whenever Lilith might want to, she's happy. She is nowhere near as > >adamant about defending the Freedom of anyone *else*. > > Have a look at Lilith's rites (on pg. 150 of the original source book) then > run that past me again, please. And don't forget to take her Dissonance condition into account while you're at it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 04:52:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: IN> Yeeeeesh... In the hopes of ending this Lilith "debate", I'd like to point something out: None of you are Right. None of you are Wrong. The nature of Lilith, even in CANON, is still a subjective matter. (Sure, there are some questions about her Canon that have firm, objective answers... but that doesn't mean a solid, objective description of her OVERALL nature and personality exists.) While I personally loathe any whitewashing of Lilith, I think it's pretty clear that there are more ways to portray Lilith, even IN CANON AS WRITTEN, than any other Superior. She's an interesting one... the whole "human into demon princess" trick sure gives her a lot of angles. Nybbas loves it, baby! Lilith's writeup and extended writeup support the view of Lilith as somewhat more sympathic and 'less evil' than the other DPs (for encouraging freedom, etc.) Lilith's writeup and extended writeup ALSO support the view of Lilith as less sympathic and 'more evil' than the other DPs (for having more free will and choosing Hell, etc.) In other words, Lilith's Canonical writeups support MORE than one view. (Not to say that all views of her are Canonical... there are plenty of interpretations that aren't supported very well - or at all - by Canon. But there is definitely more than one view that IS supported by Canon.) So... A) None of you are Wrong. B) Your view is Right, but only as Right as the other views. C) There is *no point* to trying to convince the other person that your view is the "Canonically Correct" view. David, Canon supports your view. Charles, Canon supports your view. The rest of you, Canon supports your view. (Well, most of you.) Now, let's all go back to discussing what music is most appropriate when running an In Nomine game, okay? - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! Any resemblance between the above views and those of my employer, my terminal, or the view out my window are purely coincidental. Any resemblance between the above and my own views is non-deterministic. The question of the existence of views in the absence of anyone to hold them is left as an exercise for the reader. The question of the existence of the reader is left as an exercise for the 2nd god coefficient. A discussion of non-orthogonal, non-integral polytheism is beyond the scope of this message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 09:12:45 +0100 From: "mink" Subject: IN> Re: erik And this guy is a daemon why? There aint nothing at all devilish about him, oh sure he can let his servitors cause symphonic backlash, but thts about all. If he was an angel, then yeah, sure cool, hes much better as an angel, but the word of music should be limited to the corporeal sense of the word not the Symphonic sence of the word. Okies, thats my say, and its only my oppinion, it doesnt count. Colgarothialmes Shedite of Damnation. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 09:28:40 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prodigal" To: Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 1:05 AM Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > From: "Charles Glasgow" > > From: "Prodigal" > > > > > > She may have. Or she may have been fast-talked into it by a being who > > > was able to convince an entire third of the forces of Heaven into following > > > him.* > > > > That explains why she initially joined. It doesn't explain why she's > > still there. > > Enough of both Heaven and Hell is ready to destroy her at a moment's notice > if she leaves the security of her position behind to explain that. Nope. Read the GMG. "If Lilith can't win, then she'll run... and nothing yet has been able to restrain Freedom." Hell does *not* have good odds of catching Lilith if she makes an all-out run for the border -- and contrary to what's been repeated over and over here, Heaven does *not* destroy viable Redemption candidates. Even Laurence will ping a demon first with his resonance before he whacks its head off! (Plus, anybody not an absolute cretin knows that if you want to have the best shot at Redemption, you go to Novalis or Blandine.) Every time you repeat this "destroy her at a moment's notice" stuff, you are saying something that Just Ain't So. Demons of enormously *less* power, freedom of movement, knowledge, and opportunity manage to make it over the fence alive every year... so you're telling me that Lilith is trapped? Somehow, I kinda doubt that Lilith, Demon Princess Of Freedom, gave away that many Geas/6 on herself with the promise "I Will Never Try To Leave". [snip] > > This means: > > > > a1) Lilith willingly serves Hell, motivated by her own gain. > > > > OR... > > > > b) Lilith was lied to so successfully that she didn't have a chance vs. > > the First Balseraph, who manipulated her like a puppet. > > > > And *this* means: > > > > b1) Lilith was effectively coerced into signing on. > > Wrong. > > Seduce: > > 1 : to persuade to disobedience or disloyalty Option a) > 2 : to lead astray usually by persuasion or false promises Option b) > 3 : to carry out the physical seduction of : entice to sexual intercourse Irrelevant in this context. > 4 : ATTRACT > synonym see LURE Option a). > Coerce: > > 1 : to restrain or dominate by force coerce the irreligious -- W. R. Inge> > 2 : to compel to an act or choice > 3 : to bring about by force or threat the community -- Scott Buchanan> > synonym see FORCE > > Would you please TRY to stop putting words in my mouth, Charles? I am not putting words in your mouth -- I am simply pointing out the God's honest truth. No matter *what* words you pick, the situation breaks down into one of two options -- Lilith either chose Lucifer of her own free will because she thought he had the better deal, or else Lucifer conned Lilith out of her socks. If it's the first option, then I'm right. If it's the second option, then I'm *still* right... because the odds are vanishingly small that any con job will successfully last this long. At least a fee demons of much lesser intelligence, knowledge, and comparative freedom of movement spot the inconsistencies in the Balseraphic propaganda about Heaven every decade... is Lilith really that easy to sucker? Not the way her write-up reads. She's one of the top sharpsters in all Creation. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 09:57:59 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? Omentide wrote: > As a Demon Princess she might be, but she is still human. Does Heaven > allow Humanity to become Archangels? Good question. Whatever trick Lucifer used to make Lilith a Demon Princess, the Seraphim Council very likely can't duplicate it. So Lilith would have to accept that redeeming would also mean losing Superior status. Or maybe not -- perhaps whatever made her a human Superior will "stick" even after redeeming. After all, one could argue that "redeeming" would not be an actual state-change for her, as it would for a true demon. > How much freedom would she have in Heaven? How much freedom does the Hyena > allow? Nil. That's an exaggeration. Dominic has never had complete control over those angels who are not his Servitors. Why do you think he's always complaining about every else? > Why do you think Eli walked? Heaven is about control, it is > a rigid heirarchy where only those who comply get anywhere. Heaven is > Bureaucracy gone mad, and it will not change. Bottom line, Freedom and > Heavan are anathema. That's a good summary of Lucifer's argument. ;) > And this is assuming she would survive the redemption process which is far > from certain Though again, she might not "redeem" the way a demon would. But if she does, well, it just means she has to take the same risk any other demon would when choosing to redeem. > (oh, and any trial Dominic might set up). Why would Dominic hold a trial? He doesn't try former demons for their crimes after they've become angels; why would he do that to Lilith? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:01:48 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Hal, demon of Flame War Omentide wrote: > > Hal, Habbalah demon of Flame War in service to Kobal Looks a lot like my Demon of Sarcasm: http://www.amadan.org/Innomine/Acerbial.htm - -David (Elohite of Not Suffering Fools Gladly/Habbalite of Sarcasm, depending on how much dissonance I've accrued at any given time....) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:06:28 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? Omentide wrote: > Judgement is not the same as Justice. Speaking of flamewars, this is an OLD argument. What you say is true, but looking at Dominic's writeup comprehensively, it's clear that justice is PART of his Word, it's just not always the most important part. > No. In a just society my freedom to throw a punch ends when I am unable to > face the consequences of having done so. That's not accurate. What you're saying is basically "Everyone has the freedom to do anything they like, and suffer the consequences." Which is true of ANY society, even the most totalitarian. Any demon has the "freedom" to march to the gates of Hades and scream "Asmodeus sucks Lucifer's big red one!" You are mixing up definitions of "freedom." There is the physical freedom to take action, and there is the legal freedom to do so without negative repercussions. > Were I capable of throwing a punch > with any accuracy (which I am not) I would not hesitate to do so if it > prevented the person the nose belonged to from harming a third party. Here you are introducing another factor -- this is rather like saying that murder isn't wrong because you're allowed to kill in self-defense. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:10:26 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? Prodigal wrote: > Every version of the Lilith legend I have yet read has stated that it was > Adam's demands that she be subservient to him that led to her walking out on > him. So it would seem not to be just her version after all. Who knows how accurate the legends are? Maybe the legends are just repetitions of the stories that were originally spread by _Lilith_. Or maybe Adam _was_ a jerk...but that's hardly an adequate excuse to rebel against God, side with the forces of Hell, and spend 20,000 years helping to damn humanity. > > > It's at least as legitimate an interpretation as yours. > > > > Only if you're playing a very dark game, > > Or are willing to entertain any shades of gray whatsoever. No, portraying God as a tyrant who wanted to enslave Lilith, leaving her only one option if she wanted to be free, isn't "gray," it's explicitly choosing a very dark tone. - -David ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1774 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.