From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Aug 13 15:25:43 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22022 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 15:25:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA30585 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 15:24:16 -0500 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 15:24:16 -0500 Message-Id: <200008132024.PAA30585@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1775 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, August 13 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1775 In this digest: Re: IN> Yeeeeesh... Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? IN> Clarietta, Archangel of The Veil Re: IN> Hal, demon of Flame War Re: IN> Lilith? IN> Sympathy for the Devil (was Lilith) Re: IN> Sympathy for the Devil (was Lilith) Re: IN> Sympathy for the Devil (was Lilith) Re: IN> Lilith? IN> Lilith ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:18:31 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Yeeeeesh... "Rev. Pee Kitty" wrote: > The nature of Lilith, even in CANON, is still a subjective matter. That's not in dispute. We're discussing personal views on Lilith. > Lilith's writeup and extended writeup support the view of Lilith as > somewhat more sympathic and 'less evil' than the other DPs (for > encouraging freedom, etc.) Lilith's writeup and extended writeup ALSO > support the view of Lilith as less sympathic and 'more evil' than the > other DPs (for having more free will and choosing Hell, etc.) The original writeup was more ambivalent in tone than the oozing-with-barely-disguised-admiration extended writeup. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:19:48 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? Charles Glasgow wrote: > I am not putting words in your mouth -- I am simply pointing out the God's > honest truth. No, you are pointing out your own opinion, unless you have a channel to God we're not aware of. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:28:31 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Edelstein" To: Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 10:19 AM Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > Charles Glasgow wrote: > > I am not putting words in your mouth -- I am simply pointing out the God's > > honest truth. > > No, you are pointing out your own opinion, unless you have a channel to > God we're not aware of. David, if my assertion that the recruitment scenario of Lilith does *not* break down into the two possible options I outlined -- a) she took the deal knowingly b) she was conned -- then what is the third option that I missed? God's honest truth -- if I bang my head into a brick wall, I will feel pain. I don't need a direct channel to God to know that for a certainty. Same here. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 08:31:14 +0000 From: Charles E Smith Subject: IN> Clarietta, Archangel of The Veil Hi all. :) This is the Archangel I was talking about a few days ago, the one I made for my campaign. This concerns the Paganism thread going on a couple of days ago, and I'd like your opinions. :) Some notes: 1.) I'm using a few new Archangels in the campaign I'm designing. There is Benedict, Seraph Archangel of Water. Sophia, Cherub Archangel of Love (with thanks to Jef Nichols for use of his character). Miranda, Bright Lilim Archangel of Delight and Tothiel, Kyriotate Archangel of Light. They'll be popping up in the opinions section. 2.) I borrowed an idea from Moe Lane's page when it came to writing up these new Archangels, and (since Juno doesn't do italics) I'll put a by where Clarietta's opinion is stated. 3.) Just to make clear, I'm not challenging anyone's copyrights over anything. :) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----------------------------------------- Clarietta-Archangel of the Veil To understand the deepest recesses of the human mind, one must understand mysticism and how it affects mortals. This knowledge is lacking in my fellow celestials. Clarietta, an Elohite, is the newest of all the Archangels. She recieved her Word at the end of 2022, which puts her behind Benedict in terms of holding her position: he got his Word in January 2022 and she got hers in December of that year. Clarietta was sung into existence by Raphael a year before Lucifer's rebellion and spent her days in quiet, tranquil service to the Archangel of Knowledge for many long centuries. Clarietta worked to collect and organize the vast knowledge gained by Raphael, and never sought out more challenging work. More challenging work found her instead. In 745 A.D., during the Purification Crusade, Jean came to Raphael with a request. Jean felt that the Ethereal creatures were not only potenially dangerous, but potenially quite useful. Technology had not developed far enough yet for Jean to do any advanced investigation, but he felt that Knowledge would be better suited to do the research. Raphael assigned Clarietta to help Jean, proclaiming to Jean that Clarietta's organizational and cataloguing skills were top-notch, even for the Servitors of Knowledge. A deal was struck. Jean and Raphael both gave Clarietta carte blanche to do whatever she felt was necessary to investigate and catalog the powers and potenial uses/dangers of Ethereal beings to Heaven. She was given her own private laboratory in the Halls of Progress, unlimited access to the Halls of Progress and the Great Library, and direct access to Jean and Raphael, no waiting, no bureaucracy. Clarietta accepted the enormous task with typical Elohite objectivity, simply looking to do her best. By this time, Uriel had been recalled to the Higher Heavens and Laurence had been made Commander of the Host, so Clarietta got to work. The next twelve centuries passed very fast for Clarietta. The only major interruption to her work came in 1008, when Raphael, Archangel of Knowledge, perished in her battle against Gebbeleth, Demon Prince of Secrets. Clarietta mourned Raphael's loss in her own way, then came to Jean one quiet night and asked to be formally transferred into his service. The Archangel of Lightning was glad to have her, and he allowed her to keep her old attunements and her Ambassador of Knowledge Distinction. From there, Clarietta went and lost herself in her work, burying the pain of Raphael's death behind Elohite objectivity and increasingly more perilous tasks. She journeyed into the Far Marches, befriending what Ethereals she could, dodging the fanatical Tsayadim when they became a nuisance, spying on the courts of the Ethereals in secret and cataloguing their abilities and weaknesses. She also went to the mortal world on occassion and kept alive the remnants of the ancient pagan religions, to help fuel Ethereal power for her research. Five times a century, every twenty years, Clarietta returned to the Halls of Progress and delivered formal reports to Jean. In her quiet, unassuming way, Clarietta thus worked her way into the good graces of Jean, who gave her his attunements and in time a Distinction as a Master of Lightning. Clarietta hardly noticed the elevation, just as she had not noticed when Raphael had given her her Ambassador of Knowledge distinction. It was in 1990 that Clarietta completed seven centuries of work, creating the E-harness, a device to harness Ethereal energy. The E-harness redirected and absorbed Ethereal energy. After a few field tests in the Far Marches, Clarietta simply shelved the device. When it came time for her annual report to Jean in 2000, she neglected to mention it and went right back to work. She used the device off and on over the next few years, eventally catching the attention of a Calabite of Nightmares who was in the Far Marches on an assignment. He reported back to Beleth, and garbled rumors filtered to Blandine's side of the Marches. Despite Blandine's antipathy to Lightning, word eventually reached the Halls of Progress. Jean was puzzled, and when Clarietta came in for her briefing in 2020, he asked her about it. She proceeded to show him the device, as well as the statistics and charts that proved its' effectiveness. She went back to work, honestly not even thinking of the device until it was needed. Jean was thinking of the device though. In November 2022, he went before the Seraphim Council and presented his case that Clarietta be granted a Word. Jean's evidence was unusual, and the decision was controversial, but in late December of 2022, Clarietta was called before the Seraphim Council and formally granted the Word of The Veil. No one was more suprised than she, for Clarietta had never sought power, even though she had been a prime candidate for the Word of Knowledge after Raphael's death. The new Archangel of The Veil has a task fitting her dedication to work now. Dissonance Clarietta is somewhat liberal-minded about her Word, because it is very expansive. About the only things she does consider dissonant is deliberately undermining Ethereal power on Earth on in Heaven (i.e. discouraging religions and approved practices that further Ethereal power), or spreading the idea that Ethereals should not be under Heaven's yoke. Appearance Not being fashion-conscious to any degree, Clarietta generally doesn't put too much into her appearance. Her celestial form does tend towards the female, and she usually can be seen wandering around in the plain and austere white robe she wore in Raphael's service. Her corporeal forms are always female, usually short and clad in simple and plain clothing. She never bothers with make-up or anything other than whatever clothes happen to fit at the time. Personality Little to speak of, actually. Clarietta is a workaholic extraordinare. During Raphael's tenure, she was a librarian, and learned to appreciate peace and quiet. She detests interruptions of any nature, and even for an Elohite she's emotionless. She believes in results, and doesn't particularly care what methods are used to obtain them. Notions about moral absolutes and the sacred cause of Heaven are quite lost on her. Just give her something to do and watch her go. She pays only minimal attention to celestial politics and is largely indifferent to the wrangling that goes on between the war faction and the peace faction. She'll vote for whatever seems to be the optimal solution and leave it at that. Organization Clarietta is a big believer in ultra-efficiency and organization. As such, the angels of The Veil are set up in a strict hierarchy. There are the Investigators, who go amongst the Ethereals to determine who might be troublemakers amongst them. There are the Enforcers, whose job is to make certain that the Ethereals comply with the Archangel of The Veil (lots of Malakim here), as well as deal with any Tsayadim threats. There are the Searchers, who go out and round up Tsayadim to be brought back to Clarietta, for either conversion or to go into her secret experiments. There are also the Enablers, whose job is to promote Ethereal religions on Earth and monitor those Ethereals that Clarietta allows to go to Earth, to make sure they comply with the laws she has set down. One of her controversial decisions involves the fact that she does have Tsayadim working for her. She has cowed some of them with threats of her Force-stripping experiments, much to the worry of other Archangels. She checks on her Servitors without warning, and requires all of her Servitors to make tri-monthly visits to the Sorcery Circle, her Cathedral in the Far Marches. The Circle is a rune-traced magical circle set in a deep and misty forest. Choir Attunements Seraphim Seraphim of The Veil can determine the Truth of one's alignment in the Symphony with a simple application of willpower. Cherubim Cherubim of The Veil can attune themselves to the presence of an Ethereal without bodily contact and then track them whereever they go in any of the three planes. Ofanim Ofanim of The Veil can burn a path of conventional reality through any alterations caused by an Ethereal, or in the Marches. The path keeps everything along corporeal standards of normality for a number equal to the Ofanite's Ethereal Forces. Elohim Elohim of The Veil can take their natural Choir attunement one step further, differentating between emotions and sensing those caused or implanted by an Ethereal being with just an effort of willpower. Malakim Malakim of The Veil can not only determine the most honorable action an Ethereal or a human in Ethereal service has taken in the last week, but can draw out the memories and negative emotions left by dishonorable actions and chain their victim in those memories. Kyriotates Kyriotates of The Veil can temporarily go Ethereal, long enough to possess an Ethereal being in the same manner they do corporeal beings. Mercurians Mercurians of The Veil can invoke their resonance and determine whether there is an Ethereal or one working for an Ethereal in a group. The Ethereal or Ethereal cohort gives off a bright green glow to the Mercurian. Bright Lilim Bright Lilim of The Veil can look into an Ethereal's eyes and then implant a Need that coincides with Clarietta's stated desires for the Ethereal Realm in the Ethereal's psyche, and fulfill it, binding them in Geasa. Tsayadim (Restricted) There are few Tsayadim of The Veil, but those that are in Clarietta's service may determine the overall moral purity of someone they encounter. Clarietta has given permission for them to do as they see fit if the person is impure. Servitor Attunements Bind Servitors of The Veil may bind an Ethereal with this attunement, rendering them harmless and powerless. The binding lasts for days equal to the Willpower of the Servitor, but the Ethereal cannot resist transport back to the Far Marches during this period. Piper's Song Blatantly stealing the famed powers of a noted Ethereal, Servitors of The Veil may, once per day, emit a beautiful song that draws Ethereals to them like a magnet. Exorcism Servitors of The Veil may, at a cost of much of their Essence and a small ritual, expel an Ethereal from a host body it has possessed. Note that this does not work on Kyriotates or Shedim, but it can be quite uncomfortable for them. Reality Twist Similar to the Ofanite of The Veil resonance, this attunement enables one to walk the Marches or be in the presence of an Ethereal but remain unaffected by their twisting of reality's rules. The one with this attunement naturally exudes a bubble of conventional reality when entering an Ethereal's presence or the Marches. Distinctions Vassal of the Circle Vassals of the Circle can amplify any sorcerous effort with a simple expenditure of Essence. Friend of Magic Friends of Magic may radiate a pulse that can flush out any Ethereal presence within a five mile radius. Ethereals thus revealed are forced into their true forms for a number of hours equal to the Friend's Ethereal Forces. Master of Sorcery Masters of Sorcery have the ability to twist an Ethereal's powers against that being, essentially rendering Ethereal powers useless for a number of days equal to the number of their Ethereal Forces. Ambassador of the Unknown An Ambassador of the Unknown can resonate a modified version of the Piper's Song attunement, one that lures Ethereals within a five-mile radius and then automatically entraps them with the Bind attunement. Relations Clarietta's sudden accension and the nature of her Word are of much controversy and debate in Heaven. Many of the elder angels remember Uriel and his Purification Crusade, and Clarietta's tactics for unifying the Ethereal realm strike many angels as cold and cruel, and many debate whether or not the Word of The Veil is necessary. On the other hand, others view the added might of the Ethereal realm as a great boon in Heaven's cause. Clarietta's personality, or lack of same, has not really endeared her to anyone, but trying to ingratiate herself into the good graces of other Archangels would not be optimal to her need of establishing order in the Ethereal Realm, so she doesn't bother trying. Clarietta has been rounding up the Tsayadim forcibly and has been turning over the Ethereals to Dominic to be judged according to Heaven's laws, which have also drawn mixed reactions from people. Allied: Jean, Michael, David. Associated: Laurence, Dominic, Jordi. Neutral: Marc, Janus, Christopher, Eli, Litheroy, Miranda, Sophia, Yves, Zadkiel, Khalid, Novalis, Benedict. Hostile: Blandine, Tothiel, Gabriel. Benedict: "Clarietta's methods of operation leave me cold, but not as cold as her personality. I'll heal her and hers when I must, but I will also heal her victims. I anticipate that I'll be doing much of the latter." "I can see the necessity of healing in the work of Heaven, and his inspirational work does drawn humans towards aspects of my Word concerned with defense and with nurturing. I have no objective arguments to him or his presence in Heaven, and will share resources with him as necessary." Blandine: "This upstart child presumes to interfere with the balance of dreams and how they affect the mortal realm. By trampling the Ethereals, she tramples on the hopes and dreams of mortals. I will oppose her wherever I can." "The Archangel of Dreams lacks the objectivity to do what must be done. Her day has come and gone. Her incessant brooding and weeping over what is lost is not optimal for Heaven." Christopher: "One one hand, she encourages some of the Ethereals to help brighten the lives of children by bringing them gifts or inspiring them to think. On the other hand, she's kind of creepy and not very nice to the Ethereals..." "Christopher's childishness does encourage children towards aspects of my Word. I do wish he would act more mature and do what is optimal. Just because he is the Archangel of Children does not mean he has to act like a child." David: "She unifies the Ethereals to provide a stronger defense for Heaven and humans alike, and she has no qualms about coming down hard to do it. I rather like her." "David understands the need for strength in unity and the objective reasons why those who will not band together need to face the consequences of their choices. He hardens Heaven, as I harden the Ethereal Realm. We can work together." Dominic: "Clarietta is a very useful addition to Heaven. She understands the necessity of Judgement and the importance of law and order. Her policies and mine seem to be compatible, and my Triads work alongside her Investigators to bring Judgement to those under The Veil." "Dominic's policies and Triads are most optimal for enforcing justice in Heaven and the Marches. I see no reason why I should not support him. Our conversations on matters of justice and enforcement of same are always informative." Eli: "She's a major downer sometimes, dude. I mean, when you enter her Cathedral, its' not the forest that's cold, its' just her. On the other hand, some people create the coolest stuff when inspired by Ethereals under her Word. I just keep clear of her. She's enough to scare me sober from the worst hangover." "Eli has his place in Heaven. I do not know what that place may be however. An Archangel of Creation seems rather pointless and superflous to me, but I have no quarrel against him." Gabriel: "Her cruelty and ruthlessness are not befitting of an Archangel. One day she shall burn..." "The opinions of a mad angel are irrevelant. I fail to see why she was not stripped of her Word long ago. Her insanity renders her unfit to hold any Word. I believe I should suggest to Dominic a new trial for Gabriel. She is incompetent in her duties." Janus: "Well, Clari sure is shaking things up in Heaven and the Marches! She's got all the Archangels in a buzz and Heaven's rolling with debate. Cool by me! I wouldn't rush to help her, but I like the change she's bringing." "Janus is puzzling. The Wind who brings change and shakes up order. If I were subjective, I would not like him. Objectively, I faintly see his purpose. He may even be useful someday, I do not know." Jean: "Clarietta is the optimal solution to the danger of the Ethereal Realm and Tsayadim. I have worked with her since 745 A.D. and I have come to trust and value her effiency." "Jean is a worthy Archangel, one who understood my needs when Raphael perished. I find an alliance with him to be optimal." Jordi: "She does not obsess over helping humans, like most of the others do, and many of the Ethereals she is controlling are attuned with nature and the wild. I think we can get along decently." "Jordi's Word is very important to my own. The symbolism of animals is a very important part of Ethereal power and hence of my Word. I am willing to promote the safety of animals in ritual, and thus help both Animals and The Veil." Khalid: "Her lack of faith is Allah is very troublesome. She cares for nothing but results and treats morality with skepticism. She promotes Faith in her own way, but still..." "Khalid's Word is important for my own, as faith in the Ethereals provides their powers and thus much of the backbone for my Word. I do wish he would not try to press his concept of moral absolutes on me. As an Elohite himself, I'd expect him to understand that moral absolutes are not optimal to carrying out our Words." Laurence: "On one hand, I see Lady Clarietta as very useful. Her work in unifying the Ethereal Realm deprives Hell of its' darker allies amongst the Ethereals, and at the same time provides valuable resources for Heaven. Her Cathedral in the Far Marches gives us an ideal jumping-off point for any assualt on the Demon Princess of Nightmares. Her work in bringing back the Tsayadim gladdens my heart as well. Yet I fear, lest her objectivity give way to contempt and another Purification Crusade begins. In her position in the Marches, digging her out would be fiendishly tricky, even without Beleth's interference..." "Laurence's aid has been quite useful in suppressing the ineffectual protests of the Ethereal. I can understand his concerns, but I am not the fanatic Uriel, nor do I share his inefficent views on Purity. I will work with Laurence to our mutual benefit." Litheroy: "I see it as necessary to reveal the truth of what she does in those secret labs of hers, but so far I've not been able to do much work there. Other than that, I have little interest in her or her work." "Revelation. An unimportant and irrevelant Word. I have no problem with him, but I do not see his purpose." Marc: "She pays well for rare tomes or artificats on Ethereals and their history, and she keeps things aboveboard. She's too mystical and distant for my tastes, but we can do business." "Marc is useful. He provides important resources for fair trade. I see no reason not to work with him." Michael: "Excellent! It is about time the Ethereals were dealt with, and Clarietta's just the Archangel to do it. She does what needs to be done, without moral handwringing or whining like Blandine or Novalis would go through. So she has all the personality of a dead fish, she has already pledged to bring Ethereal aid into the War and I am glad to work with her!" "Michael is a most useful ally and his help has been invaluable to me. You can find angels of War and The Veil working together. Get used to the sight, you will be seeing it for a long time to come." Miranda: "Talk about someone who needs to lighten up! Clari should come down to my Carnival and buy herself a personality for a while. It could do her a world of good." "Miranda aids some aspects of my Word, such as the delight of the merry trickster Puck, and others like him. I will consent that some of my less objective angels who occassionally grow depressed can use her services, so I have no objective complaints against the Archangel of Delight." Novalis: "I recognize that I must try to be open and forgiving towards her, but it is very hard when I hear about her experiments on the Tsayadim and the cruel rule she imposes on the harmless Ethereals. I will try to reach her with kindness, and get her to develop compassion." "Novalis's pacifism is not optimal to Heaven. It promotes weakness and sloth. However, the Word of Flowers does have some purpose, I will concede. I see no other problems with Novalis other than her pacifism, a fault she shares with Benedict." Sophia: "I see the hurt she causes the Ethereals, but I see the hurt within her, that which she will not acknowledge. She is proud and stubborn, and she firewalls the pain she never dealt with when Raphael died. I will be here to console her when she finally lets the pain out." "Sophia is puzzling. An ancient angel with an ancient Word, I am not certain she is relevant to today's world, but I do value her advice, when she isn't harping on my supposed pain." Tothiel: "She is no Archangel! I'm tempted to say that she's a Habbalite, but Habbalah have to have emotions to project them. This fiend tortures the Ethereals and the Tsayadim, she blights them in the darkness of ignorance and tyranny and calls it progress! She got the Council to reprimand me when I went there to shed some Light on the poor beings. I am called the Lightbringer, and one day I will shed Light on those benighted souls." "The Archangel of Light. The last angel to hold the post was a mighty Seraph and he failed. I was alive then, I knew Lucifer. He used to come visit the Library. I highly doubt that this little Kyriotate can fill his shoes, and his opinion is largely irrevelant. I do what is optimal, he is ruled by his subjective emotions." Yves: "Clarietta is approaching her Destiny, but there is still potenial for her to fall to her Fate, even now. More I will not say, other than to advise that we keep a close eye on the Archangel of The Veil and try not to push her too far away from us..." "Yves is even more of a mystic than I am, if he would admit it. As a former Servitor of both Knowledge and Lightning, I have little love for his vague predictions, but I will not argue that he is not effective for that." Zadkiel: "I pity the Ethereals and the Tsayadim, and I offered them what protection I can. I cannot really speak on Clarietta, save to say that I do not approve her methods and that she is very hard to like." "Zadkiel emodies the stereotype of the guardian angel, but that does help draw people towards aspects of my Word concerned with defense. If she would learn to stay out of my affairs, I could work with her." The Approved List Clarietta's come up with an approved list of actions for Ethereals. Ethereal caught deviating from the list usually wind up facing angry Malakim and a stony-faced Archangel. So far, there are four things since she just took office. 1.) Ethereals are allowed to forward religions on Earth that further Ethereal power, so long as they don't include animal sacrifice, any other types of violation, or blood sacrifice. 2.) Ethereals are allowed to watch mortals but must obtain written passes from Clarietta to interact with them. Any violators will be Bound. 3.) Ethereals are required to comply with any angel of The Veil or other angels of those Archangels Clarietta is allied or associated with. 4.) Tsayadim are not permitted to move about Earth or parts of the Marches without written passes from Clarietta. Role in The War Clarietta's role in the War is mostly support right now. She is harnessing the Ethereal realm's capabilities, with the help of Laurence, David, and Michael, and plans to bring them into the War on Heaven's side as soon as the Ethereals are cowed. She is neutral in politics and votes for whatever is optimal to Heaven. Basic Rites Spend an hour in mystic ritual. Spend three hours encouraging mortals in Ethereal rituals. Chance of Invocation: 1 Invocation Modifiers: +1 Stand in a mystic circle +2 Invoke her at the moment of finishing a minor ritual +3 Invoke her when one has Bound a troublesome Ethereal +4 Invoke her at the moment of finishing a major ritual +5 Invoke her when bringing in a rogue Tsayadim +6 Invoke her at the moment of the creation of a new Tether to The Veil ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:22:43 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Hal, demon of Flame War >Looks a lot like my Demon of Sarcasm: Well, you know what they say about great minds ;) I LIKE Acerbial. I don't see Hal as being quite that powerful at present. Sarcasm is not the only tool he uses. Gross patronism of his opponents is also a favourite method (as is nitpicking). (Hal's post in reply to Acerbial) "I suppose you think that's really funny? Well, I can only suggest you take a look at pg 136, subsection 2Aa) and read the small print CAREFULLY (not forgetting to wear your glasses)...." Hilary Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:07:43 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > > Judgement is not the same as Justice. > >Speaking of flamewars, this is an OLD argument. What you say is true, >but looking at Dominic's writeup comprehensively, it's clear that >justice is PART of his Word, it's just not always the most important >part. Yup, it's an old argument. The back-reference was fully intentional. One day I might post my write up of the Elohite of Dominic with a role called 'Torquemada'. He was meant to sort the Inquisition out but, unfortunately, fell in the process. > > No. In a just society my freedom to throw a punch ends when I am > unable to face the consequences of having done so. > >That's not accurate. What you're saying is basically "Everyone has the >freedom to do anything they like, and suffer the consequences." Which is >true of ANY society, even the most totalitarian. Seems to me that you're defining a 'just society' and a 'totalitarian society' as polar opposites. In a totalitarian society, provided the groundrules are transparent and applied even-handedly, justice is perfectly possible. Others might disagree with the nature of the groundrules (arguing that they were repressive, irrational or downright oppressive). I think it's possible to imagine a totalitarian society where perpetrators of 'crimes against the state' or whatever get a fair trial. Freedom-wise, an individual is free to take whatever action he/she choses and a society is equally free to respond to that in accordance with its own principles. Freedom, in an important sense, is preserved when the individual knows the potential consequences of his actions and chooses freely to face those consequences rather than refrain from that action. That's important from Lilith's point of view because of the nature of her daughters' resonance. Acceptance of a favour from a Lilim involves the explicit recognition that you 'owe her one'. The precise nature of the deal is usually hidden (even the Lilim doesn't know how she's going to call her geas in until she decides it's time to do so) and there may well be a degree of deliberate deception, but the Lilim's victim knows that there will be a price to pay. You are mixing up definitions of "freedom." There is the physical >freedom to take action, and there is the legal freedom to do so without >negative repercussions. I'm not sure. I think Lilith's attitude here might well be mixed. On the one hand she supports my freedom to do as I choose but, if I choose to use my freedom to lock someone away or otherwise limit THEIR freedom... Lilith becomes paradoxical very quickly. Here you are introducing another factor -- this is rather like saying >that murder isn't wrong because you're allowed to kill in self-defense. Not really, I was arguing that my freedom to throw a punch doesn't necessarily end where someone else's nose begins. The factors affecting my freedom to take that action are multiple. And now you've got me speculating about the Elohite of 'reasonable force'... Hilary Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:26:52 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: IN> Sympathy for the Devil (was Lilith) > > Why do you think Eli walked? Heaven is about control, it is > > a rigid heirarchy where only those who comply get anywhere. Heaven is > > Bureaucracy gone mad, and it will not change. Bottom line, Freedom and > > Heavan are anathema. > >That's a good summary of Lucifer's argument. ;) and >No, portraying God as a tyrant who wanted to enslave Lilith, leaving her >only one option if she wanted to be free, isn't "gray," it's explicitly >choosing a very dark tone. Makes me think, what do we mean when we describe the 'tone' of an In Nomine game as 'dark'? I thought the definition was 'Hell is horrible and Hell is winning.' What's the proper word for a game that assumes 'Heaven and Hell are more or less equally balanced when it comes to the war. However, from the point of view of those of us who are stuck in the crossfire, there's not a lot to chose between the two moral viewpoints'. I thought that was 'low contrast'. The word that seems to be missing is the one that means 'IMC, Hell is actually RIGHT.' Is it necessarily 'dark' to assume that Lucifer might have been right? Certainly, if you take the angle that Heaven is a dictatorship where the ruler doesn't even bother to turn up on public occasions and Hell is a Free-Trade economy (whoops! I meant a Right Anarchy, where the strong rise to the top by preying on the weak) it helps to explain why Lilith made the choices she did. And why she sticks to them. Mind you, I'm sticking to my postulation that, if Lilith redeems, she'd lose access to the HRT. She might start to ovulate again. And what would heaven's view be on contraception? Hilary Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 11:09:45 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> Sympathy for the Devil (was Lilith) Omentide wrote: > Makes me think, what do we mean when we describe the 'tone' of an In Nomine > game as 'dark'? I thought the definition was 'Hell is horrible and Hell is > winning.' I've always used it to mean that whichever side is winning (or more often both sides of the War) is generally evil, disgusting and not someone you'd invite over for dinner. > What's the proper word for a game that assumes 'Heaven and Hell are more or > less equally balanced when it comes to the war. However, from the point of > view of those of us who are stuck in the crossfire, there's not a lot to > chose between the two moral viewpoints'. I thought that was 'low > contrast'. Low contrast could also, presumably, be bright, however. What that would lead to is a war of ideology where neither side is especially awful (WWI could be seen this way, I suppose) > The word that seems to be missing is the one that means 'IMC, > Hell is actually RIGHT.' That would be backwards. And backwards campaigns can still be bright, dark, high or low contrast (again, all this is how I've been using stuff). A bright, high contrast backwards game would be where Lucifer was right, Hell is generally a fun place, or at least far more pleasant than in canon, Heaven is a 1984esque totalitarian state and Angels are mindless scary drones. The campaign I'm currently playing is *deep breath* backwards, dark, middling-high contrast. Kyriotates are scary things Matrix Agent-type things, Malakim are just plain terrifying, single minded killing machines and Mercurians and Impudites are reveresed. Hell, though, isn't all that much different from what it is in canon (there's a bit more cooperation between princes, and some of the DPs are considerably lighter). Hell is fighting a guerilla-type losing battle. > Is it necessarily 'dark' to assume that Lucifer might have been > right? Shouldn't think so. It's dark to assume he's right if Hell is evil, though. > Mind you, I'm sticking to my postulation that, if Lilith redeems, she'd > lose access to the HRT. She might start to ovulate again. And what would > heaven's view be on contraception? It would depend how overtly religious the game was, I think (which is yet another factor in determining the tone of a campaign. The backwards campaign I'm in, needless to say, is cheerfully sacriligeous). Cheers, -Ryan "Playground, it's a playground, Mocked by the masters and bruised by the bullies in the Playground, everyday ground, More time rehearsing Rehearsing for the big square world." -XTC, Playground ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 14:09:24 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Sympathy for the Devil (was Lilith) Omentide wrote: > Makes me think, what do we mean when we describe the 'tone' of an In Nomine > game as 'dark'? I thought the definition was 'Hell is horrible and Hell is > winning.' Or "Heaven is horrible and Heaven is winning." > What's the proper word for a game that assumes 'Heaven and Hell are more or > less equally balanced when it comes to the war. However, from the point of > view of those of us who are stuck in the crossfire, there's not a lot to > chose between the two moral viewpoints'. That would be dark AND low contrast. > The word that seems to be missing is the one that means 'IMC, > Hell is actually RIGHT.' That can either be bright or dark, low contrast or high; it just requires switching viewpoints around. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 14:15:54 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? Omentide wrote: > Seems to me that you're defining a 'just society' and a 'totalitarian > society' as polar opposites. Pretty much. > In a totalitarian society, provided the> groundrules are transparent and applied even-handedly, justice is perfectly> possible. If you define "Anyone caught expressing opinions the government doesn't like will be executed" as justice because it's "transparent and applied even-handedly," I guess so. > I> think it's possible to imagine a totalitarian society where perpetrators of > 'crimes against the state' or whatever get a fair trial. Theoretically, perhaps. Just like theoretically, a communist society could be benevolent and prosperous. It's not something we've ever seen on Earth, though, and I suspect it's pretty unlikely to occur. > Freedom, in an important sense, is preserved when the > individual knows the potential consequences of his actions and chooses > freely to face those consequences rather than refrain from that > action. I still disagree. That would make a society like the above, in which speaking against the government is a capital offense, "free." Again, EVERYONE has that much "freedom" in _any_ society. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 13:36:50 -0700 From: "Glenn Brown" Subject: IN> Lilith The discussion regarding why Lilith continues to serve Hell over Heaven seems to me to be missing a basic point. Some people have argued that Lilith's moral culpability might be reduced if she is bound in some way, as in the "Lucifer has an invisible chain around my neck' argument. Others find it implausible that a being as smart and fast as Lilith could be bound or enslaved. Even if her original decision to support Hell could be justified, they ask, what's kept her from changing her mind in the 20,000 years since then? But Lilith has been Bound, in a way no other Human is Bound. For the last 20,000 years, she has been Wordbound to the Word of Freedom. Lilith IS Freedom. And it's canon that the Wordbound perceive everything through the mindset of their Word. When Lilith asks herself if she should serve Heaven or Hell, she does not ask, 'What's best for Humanity?', or even, 'What's best for me?' She asks, what's best for Freedom? And Lilith isn't just concerned about the Freedom of Humans. She is concerned with ALL Freedom, including the Freedom of Celestials and Ethereals. And isn't the answer to the question of which side is better for Freedom obvious? Her very continued existence as the Demon Princess of Freedom proves that Lucifer is willing to support the Word of Freedom, at least to some degree. By contrast, there is no Archangel of Freedom. Or of any related concept, like Liberation, Free Will, Choice, or Independence. Doesn't that show, Lilith might argue, that the Seraphim Council doesn't think such Words would benefit the cause of Heaven? If Heaven wanted to have an Archangel of Free Will, what's stopping them from appointing one? The fact that no angel can fully comprehend the concept of Free Will? No doubt there are a lot of things about Hell's policy that Lilith doesn't like. Her 'problem' with Saminga, for instance. "There is no Freedom in Death'. But that is not a good enough reason to reject all of Hell. Not as long as Lilith thinks she can ultimately hope to defeat the Princes she opposes. Lilith would only think of turning to Heaven if she believed that Lucifer was planning to destroy Freedom. But so far, as least, she doesn't think he is. And it should be noted that its canon that NOBOBY truely understands the Lightbringer. Which means the even Lilith can't be sure whether or not he has 'conned' her. No doubt that thought frightens her more than anything else. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1775 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.