From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Aug 13 20:42:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA32524 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:42:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id UAA13768 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:41:25 -0500 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:41:25 -0500 Message-Id: <200008140141.UAA13768@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1777 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, August 13 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1777 In this digest: Re: IN> Yeeeeesh... Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN>The Superior Dinner Party Re: IN> Lilith? IN> A Short Story: The Tears of an Angel RE: IN> Lilith? IN> The Prince of Oppression Re: IN> Lilith? IN> Why Lilith is likeable (was EVERY CONCIEVABLE LILITH POST) Re: IN> Why Lilith is likeable (was EVERY CONCIEVABLE LILITH POST) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 00:51:57 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Yeeeeesh... >Uh.... NO. That was a joke. Joke joke joke. Um. So was the reply. Sorry, unable to resist the temptation of fulfilling your need, seeing you actually asked.. Hilary Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 19:19:26 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "Charles Glasgow" > > > > There is a difference between claiming that they are ready to do so and > > claiming that they could. > > And you claimed that they were ready to do so. That is what the words are > inside the quotation marks -- "ready to destroy her at a moment's notice". You then started arguing against the possibility of destroying her being easy, rather than my actual argument. > [snip] > > You have yet to disprove that there are significant factions on both sides > > that would not have the desire to destroy her should she leave Hell, only > > that it is very unlikely that they could succeed. > > If it's very unlikely that they could succeed, then their standing ready to > destroy her is no effective deterrent to Lilith. Not if she is unwilling to test the possibility of their being able to succeed. People stay in abusive relationships in the real world for far less reason than that, after all. > If she knows they have > very little hope of catching her, then she has very little to stop her from > running. If she believes that they have a good chance to catch her (since there is no telling exactly how long it will be until Armageddon, and therefore impossible to tell exactly how long she would have to be on the run,) there's something to stop her right there (the whole abusive relationship thing again.) > I simply don't see what you're trying to do here, given that what I wrote > and what you wrote are exactly the same. No, it isn't. You argue that, if Lilith seeks Redemption, then Heaven will have no reason to destroy her, and that Hell won't be able to catch her in time to stop it. I argue that, if Lilith chooses to leave Hell, then both sides will be trying to kill her. > Those quotes are accurate, and you cannot show otherwise. You are not arguing against what I have written, however. > I argued that Hell would find it very hard to catch Lilith before she could > be safely in Heaven -- and I argued that Heaven would be very unlikely to > destroy a Lilith that said she wanted to change sides without first > verifying the sincerity of her claims. > > Heaven does not destroy demons who approach them wanting to redeem out of > hand -- especially not if you pick the right archangel to approach, and > Lilith knows who every Archangel is and what they do. I have been arguing for why Lilith does not leave Hell, Charles, and not why she does not seek Redemption. Lilith is almost infinitely more likely to go Renegade or join a third faction than she is to attempt Redemption. > > Either you were posting an > > argument that had nothing to do with what you were responding to, or you > > were trying to portray me as claiming that I was arguing that it would not > > be difficult for them to do so. And since that is an argument which I have > > never made... > > No, the argument you made is that Lilith doesn't leave Hell because of fear > of being destroyed by either Heaven or Hell. And in the absence of any reason not to destroy her, why would Heaven not continue seeking her destruction? It is you making Redemption a factor in your arguments, after all. > But if Lilith makes a run for the border and Redemption... Hell can't catch > her, and Heaven won't kill her. If Redemption is part of the deal. If she is only leaving Hell, then she's fair game for both sides. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 19:36:35 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prodigal" To: Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 7:19 PM Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > From: "Charles Glasgow" > > > > > > There is a difference between claiming that they are ready to do so and > > > claiming that they could. > > > > And you claimed that they were ready to do so. That is what the words > > are inside the quotation marks -- "ready to destroy her at a moment's notice". > > You then started arguing against the possibility of destroying her being > easy, rather than my actual argument. Your actual argument was that Lilith remains in place due to fear of destruction. Obviously, if I can show that the possibility of her being destroyed is not likely, then I am showing that she doesn't have as much to be afraid of as you think. > > [snip] > > > You have yet to disprove that there are significant factions on both > > > sides that would not have the desire to destroy her should she leave > > > Hell, only that it is very unlikely that they could succeed. > > > > If it's very unlikely that they could succeed, then their standing ready > > to destroy her is no effective deterrent to Lilith. > Not if she is unwilling to test the possibility of their being able to > succeed. IIRC, Lilith has never lacked for either nerve or wit. And she's taken bigger gambles before. (Walking out of Eden and cutting Lucifer loose on the world was not exactly free of risk itself...) > People stay in abusive relationships in the real world for far less > reason than that, after all. I still don't understand why people keep claiming that what applies to "abusive relationships" between mortals on Earth also applies to Lilith. The tone of Lilith's writeup is that of a mercenary who's chosen which side she's hiring out to, and who doesn't particularly want to change sides.. > > If she knows they have very little hope of catching her, then she has very > > little to stop her rom running. > > If she believes that they have a good chance to catch her (since there is no > telling exactly how long it will be until Armageddon, and therefore > impossible to tell exactly how long she would have to be on the run,) Just as long as it takes her to reach Heaven. Lilith has seen her own daughters make the same run for the fence over and over again. She's also seen that some of them *make* it. And Lilith herself is *so* much greater than any of her daughters... any fence *they* can hurdle, she can hop over with one foot in a bucket while whistling "Dixie". Heck, to this day, it's rumored that Truly Free Lilim are hiding out on Earth right now, in really long extended periods of Renegade-ness. And given that unlike them, Lilith doesn't disturb the Symphony, she'd have an even easier time hiding out. > there's something to stop her right there (the whole abusive relationship > thing again.) > > I simply don't see what you're trying to do here, given that what I wrote > > and what you wrote are exactly the same. > > No, it isn't. You argue that, if Lilith seeks Redemption, then Heaven will > have no reason to destroy her, and that Hell won't be able to catch her in > time to stop it. I argue that, if Lilith chooses to leave Hell, then both > sides will be trying to kill her. And you are wrong. The mere fact that any Bright Lilim have ever existed shows that -- if *they* can manage it, Lilith herself is more than capable... seeing as how she's much much older, more experienced, more skilled, and more powerful than any of her daughters are. > > Those quotes are accurate, and you cannot show otherwise. > > You are not arguing against what I have written, however. Are we backpedaling? First you claim that I am putting words in your mouth and straw-manning you. Now that that accusation has been quite clearly spiked, you are instead claiming that I'm not successfully meeting your arguments. Your argument is based on the premise that Lilith would consider the odds of escaping Hell to be so low as to have no hope of leaving at all, am I right? I don't see how Lilith can possibly believe this, when she sees the Game fail to catch Renegades and Redeemers every yaer -- and when she knows that she herself is so much more superior than any of those little demons... > > I argued that Hell would find it very hard to catch Lilith before she > > could be safely in Heaven -- and I argued that Heaven would be very unlikely to > > destroy a Lilith that said she wanted to change sides without first > > verifying the sincerity of her claims. > > > > Heaven does not destroy demons who approach them wanting to redeem out of > > hand -- especially not if you pick the right archangel to approach, and > > Lilith knows who every Archangel is and what they do. > I have been arguing for why Lilith does not leave Hell, Charles, and not why > she does not seek Redemption. Lilith is almost infinitely more likely to go > Renegade or join a third faction than she is to attempt Redemption. Well, if Lilith is not seeking Redemption, then Lilith has nothing to complain about when Heaven puts her in the "Enemy" category -- which, as you might recall, was a sticking point of this thread waaaaaaaaaaay back in the beginning, that it was somehow 'unfair' for Heaven to consider Lilith their enemy. [snip] > > But if Lilith makes a run for the border and Redemption... Hell can't > > catch her, and Heaven won't kill her. > > If Redemption is part of the deal. If she is only leaving Hell, then she's > fair game for both sides. Nope, only one. Heaven would be supremely idiotic to attempt to kill Lilith even if she was merely a Renegade... if they fail, they drive her right back into the arms of Hell. If they succeed, they lose an absolute *ton* of invaluable strategic data locked in that pretty little skull... that plus the immeasurable strategic value of being able to yank on every Geas-string that Lilith still has attached to demons all over Hell.. Even if Lilith *didn't* want to join Heaven, at least two Archangels I can think off right of the top of my head would *still* trade protection and/or a safe plade to hide out for information -- Michael and Marc. And Lilith's done lots of deals with both of them before, and knows them across a conference table very well. When you're one of the top deal-makers in existence, when you're the ultimate favor-trader around, it's very hard to credibly claim that you have *no* options. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:00:07 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "Charles Glasgow" > > > > You then started arguing against the possibility of destroying her being > > easy, rather than my actual argument. > > Your actual argument was that Lilith remains in place due to fear of > destruction. Obviously, if I can show that the possibility of her being > destroyed is not likely, then I am showing that she doesn't have as much to > be afraid of as you think. But not that the fear is not there, Charles. > IIRC, Lilith has never lacked for either nerve or wit. Neither have any number of people who have failed to leave abusive relationships in the real world. > > People stay in abusive relationships in the real world for far less > > reason than that, after all. > > I still don't understand why people keep claiming that what applies to > "abusive relationships" between mortals on Earth also applies to Lilith. > > No, it isn't. You argue that, if Lilith seeks Redemption, then Heaven will > > have no reason to destroy her, and that Hell won't be able to catch her in > > time to stop it. I argue that, if Lilith chooses to leave Hell, then both > > sides will be trying to kill her. > > And you are wrong. Not if she leaves Hell for reasons other than Redemption, Charles. > The mere fact that any Bright Lilim have ever existed > shows that -- if *they* can manage it, Lilith herself is more than > capable... No, it doesn't. Lilim are demons. Lilith is not. > > > Those quotes are accurate, and you cannot show otherwise. > > > > You are not arguing against what I have written, however. > > Are we backpedaling? First you claim that I am putting words in your mouth > and straw-manning you. Because you have debated against arguments I have not made, yes. > Now that that accusation has been quite clearly > spiked, you are instead claiming that I'm not successfully meeting your > arguments. Because you have debated against arguments I have not made, yes. > Your argument is based on the premise that Lilith would consider the odds of > escaping Hell to be so low as to have no hope of leaving at all, am I right? No. It's that she considers the possible rewards of leaving Hell outweighed by the possible costs of renouncing the protection her position as Princess affords. > I don't see how Lilith can possibly believe this, when she sees the Game > fail to catch Renegades and Redeemers every yaer -- and when she knows that > she herself is so much more superior than any of those little demons... But that she would, as a Princess, be a much higher priority for them. > > I have been arguing for why Lilith does not leave Hell, Charles, and not > > why she does not seek Redemption. Lilith is almost infinitely more > > likely to go Renegade or join a third faction than she is to attempt > > Redemption. > > Well, if Lilith is not seeking Redemption, then Lilith has nothing to > complain about when Heaven puts her in the "Enemy" category You're wandering away from my actual arguments again, Charles. > -- which, as you > might recall, was a sticking point of this thread waaaaaaaaaaay back in the > beginning, that it was somehow 'unfair' for Heaven to consider Lilith their > enemy. Not in any messages I can remember posting, it wasn't. > > > But if Lilith makes a run for the border and Redemption... Hell can't > > > catch her, and Heaven won't kill her. > > > > If Redemption is part of the deal. If she is only leaving Hell, then she's > > fair game for both sides. > > Nope, only one. Nope, both. > Even if Lilith *didn't* want to join Heaven, at least two Archangels I can > think off right of the top of my head would *still* trade protection and/or > a safe plade to hide out for information -- Michael and Marc. Both of whom would be put on trial damned quickly if this was ever discovered, pardon the pun. And in the meantime, the hunt for Lilith would continue. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 17:58:22 +0000 From: Charles E Smith Subject: Re: IN>The Superior Dinner Party Lilith, Eli, Novalis, Janus, Yves, David (provided he doesn't expect me to cook kosher), Andrealphus, Lucifer and Kobal (provided he doesn't bring his pet along). That's more than would fit around my kitchen table but twelve is an excellent number for a party. Course, there's a shortage of females (assuming they all use their favourite vessels) but that's In Nomine for you.<<< *That* would be one interesting meal. I can see it now. Eli: *crafting mashed potatoes into a fanciful castle* "Rockin' food! Want a drink?" *holds up a 40-ounce of beer* Novalis: *primly ignoring said 40-ounce* "Why, what a lovely meal dear. Would you mind sharing the recipe with me? I think I can spice it up with something from the Glade." Andrealphus: *leering at Novalis when he thinks she can't see* "You know Novy, they say that dinner is a romantic prelude to a certain activity. I'm certain our host wouldn't mind, in the interest of furthering...heh heh...true love..." Lilith and Novalis together: *rolls their eyes* Kobal: "I'm glad we left my freak of a brother at home. He has absolutely no manners" *he shakes some itching powder from a pepper shaker onto Lucifer's plate* David: *glaring hostilely at all the DP's and not eating anything* Janus: "Woo-hoo! Hey, can I bring over the rest of my Servitors? You get some great stuff here. I'm sure my people can pay you back, maybe supe up your car...?" Lucifer: *chuckling and looking to his host* Are you sure you wouldn't like to come to Hell as my personal chef? I promise fair wages, lots of perks, hell, maybe your own Principality....." I think the collateral damage alone would make it interesting. :P ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:11:40 -0700 From: Rolland Therrien Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - -----Original Message----- From: Prodigal To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Sunday, August 13, 2000 5:22 PM Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? >From: "Charles Glasgow" >> > >> > There is a difference between claiming that they are ready to do so and >> > claiming that they could. >> >> And you claimed that they were ready to do so. That is what the words >are >> inside the quotation marks -- "ready to destroy her at a moment's notice". > >You then started arguing against the possibility of destroying her being >easy, rather than my actual argument. You originally brought the "Hell and Heaven could easily destroy her" argument, so don't complain when people start debating against it. >> [snip] >> > You have yet to disprove that there are significant factions on both >sides >> > that would not have the desire to destroy her should she leave Hell, >only >> > that it is very unlikely that they could succeed. >> >> If it's very unlikely that they could succeed, then their standing ready >to >> destroy her is no effective deterrent to Lilith. > >Not if she is unwilling to test the possibility of their being able to >succeed. People stay in abusive relationships in the real world for far less >reason than that, after all. After 22000 years? She's had 21990 years + to figure out a plan to make her way out of Hell without getting all of Hell hunting for her. Hell, by your stand-point, that's probably what she's been doing all this time. There are reasons she's been collecting Geasas on every prince in Hell by selling them her daughters, you know. By know, she could probably call in each of those favors, tell them "I'm leaving Hell. You won't do anything to stop me, and you won't tell anyone what I'm doing, either", and she could get away with it. Hell, if you give me 20000 years to make an escape plan, I would take my chances. Lillith's an expert manipulator and schemer. If she's got a plan to leave Hell, it'll work. >> If she knows they have >> very little hope of catching her, then she has very little to stop her >from >> running. > >If she believes that they have a good chance to catch her (since there is no >telling exactly how long it will be until Armageddon, and therefore >impossible to tell exactly how long she would have to be on the run,) >there's something to stop her right there (the whole abusive relationship >thing again.) Again, you underestimate Lillith. She's most likely got enough resources gathered from her Geasas and her daughters that she could stay many steps ahead of either Heaven of Hell. >> I simply don't see what you're trying to do here, given that what I wrote >> and what you wrote are exactly the same. > >No, it isn't. You argue that, if Lilith seeks Redemption, then Heaven will >have no reason to destroy her, and that Hell won't be able to catch her in >time to stop it. I argue that, if Lilith chooses to leave Hell, then both >sides will be trying to kill her. You're saying the moment Lillith walks out of Hell, Both Heaven and Hell will chase her to her death? This specifically say in the main rulebook that Lillith walks in and out of Hell freely, and NO ONE so far has ever been able to stop her from doing so. Not even Lucifer, apparantly. Hell, she secretly walks in and out of Hell ROUTINELY, and no one at The Game even blinks an eye at it. Now, if Lillith walks out of Hell and directly enters a Thether of Heaven, and asks the Senechal to summon his/her Superior because she wants to Redeem herself, then by the time The Game wises up, it's already too late. >> Those quotes are accurate, and you cannot show otherwise. > >You are not arguing against what I have written, however. > >> I argued that Hell would find it very hard to catch Lilith before she >could >> be safely in Heaven -- and I argued that Heaven would be very unlikely to >> destroy a Lilith that said she wanted to change sides without first >> verifying the sincerity of her claims. >> >> Heaven does not destroy demons who approach them wanting to redeem out of >> hand -- especially not if you pick the right archangel to approach, and >> Lilith knows who every Archangel is and what they do. > >I have been arguing for why Lilith does not leave Hell, Charles, and not why >she does not seek Redemption. Lilith is almost infinitely more likely to go >Renegade or join a third faction than she is to attempt Redemption. Ok, I don't see how that would make any more sense after what you said earlier. You say Lillith would stand no chance if she was a runaway of both Heaven and Hell, then you say that if she'd leave Hell, she'd do exactly what it would take to make herself an enemy of BOTH Heaven and Hell? >> > Either you were posting an >> > argument that had nothing to do with what you were responding to, or you >> > were trying to portray me as claiming that I was arguing that it would >not >> > be difficult for them to do so. And since that is an argument which I >have >> > never made... >> >> No, the argument you made is that Lilith doesn't leave Hell because of >fear >> of being destroyed by either Heaven or Hell. > >And in the absence of any reason not to destroy her, why would Heaven not >continue seeking her destruction? It is you making Redemption a factor in >your arguments, after all. Well, Redemption is one of the usual ways most Demons wanting out of Hell take. If Lillith leaves Hell, she's quite likely to go "Ok, Hell was a bust. I had the freedom to do whatever I wanted, as long as I kept watching over my shoulder for backstabbers... Some Freedom. On the other hand, if I get a few Geasa on Heaven's War factions, in exchange for some Info and the promise of making more of my daughters for them, I'll most likely have more Freedom to do whatever I want... Ok, so I'll have to "Play Nice", but at least I know they won't stab me in the back, like some other people I know in Hell..." >> But if Lilith makes a run for the border and Redemption... Hell can't >catch >> her, and Heaven won't kill her. > >If Redemption is part of the deal. If she is only leaving Hell, then she's >fair game for both sides. Or she starts playing both sides, offering her daughters freely to both sides, with the Geas condition that no one hunts her. (And the leaders of each side's War factions would definetly let her live just to get more Lillim out of her.) - -Exit the LoneWolf. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 19:14:09 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: IN> A Short Story: The Tears of an Angel I hate to interrupt this wonderful flame war, but I have this for the good readers of the list. http://www.phargle.com/innomine.html Entitled "The Tears of an Angel", it's a brief look at a pre-Fall Kobal. As usual, any comments are always appreciated. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:17:21 +1000 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Lilith? Charles and Prodigal, Could you both please take this to private email? I for one am growing tired of post after post appearing in my mailbox basically saying "You're not arguing what I'm arguing". I'm possibly alone on this issue, but I doubt the two of you are going to reach agreement any time soon. Thank you. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:10:34 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Prince of Oppression Okay I want to say something up front....the Lilith argument is now making me sick. I love her, she's my second favorite female in the Celestial Heirachy (and my 3rd overall after Gaby and Laurence). The fact remains people feel very strongly about her because she embodies at once the evolving face of religeon while remaining one one hand a beutiful attractive in spirit victem and the other hand the worst enemy you could ever meet. Thus opinion is divided as it shoud be.... On the plus side it inspired me with an idea I wanted to run past you all. The Demon Prince of Oppression. Unfortunatley right now I don't have time to do up a complete right up of Warlock (as I intend to name him) however he's been jumping around in my head for some time. Basically the way I envision him is as a Balseraph, Habbalite (a very intelligent rational if not sane one), or one of the never ending parade of Dark Malakim (presumably one of the renegades Lucifer approached and proceeded to get to violate his oaths more). The way I see it Warlock appears sometime on the scene after hell gets it's butt kicked big time for some reason and Lucifer introduces him around after his highly trained nasty troops kick the living snot out of a large group of Celestials. Problem is that even Saminga realizes after talking to him... Warlock is not playing with a full deck. The Demon Prince of Oppression runs his service much like Baal but even stricter and rebels against Heaven because it is TOO *LOOSE* with it's charges in Humanity. Spitting on the concept of free will and believing it is an abomination before the Symphony his principality is something that makes George Orwell's 1984 and the Borg look like a picnic....with the humans not having to go lengthy 'indoctrinication' sessions if they give up their essence by acting totally according their orders (if you disobey even one it's a MANY hours of torture til you see 4 lights when they're are only 2..and I mean REALLY see them). Worse I'm considering that Warlock himself doesn't believe in free will and this is all part of God's plan for mankind. I have a few kewl lines for him I think... "Hell is slavery and thus is the last true good" "ORDER is what matters not enjoyment or your insipid little games and Hell shall bring IT TO ALL!" "What you call allowing mankind their free hand...I call mass murder by omission." "The natural order is for the weak to dominate the strong, the strong in Hell have for too long ignored this cause....the same in Heaven, it is time to end their notions of this being a "rebellion" and assume control." I may give him a Menuim like Band of Pets who work to work to soothe over humanity's desire to think for themselves by letting them know what their greviances/desires (and use servitor attunemenst to remove them). By nature of the conversation Warlock would Lilith's main enemy and he would be determined to slaughter every single Lilim who likes freedom (or at least their end of it) he can lay his hand on...culminating with her if he can. Malphas would have a much subtler disquiet about him because he makes humanity work and think as one....that kind of power in one Demon is horrofic. Thoughts before I develop warlock further? (If I should) - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:29:02 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prodigal" To: Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 8:00 PM Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > From: "Charles Glasgow" > > > > > > You then started arguing against the possibility of destroying her being > > > easy, rather than my actual argument. > > > > Your actual argument was that Lilith remains in place due to fear of > > destruction. Obviously, if I can show that the possibility of her being > > destroyed is not likely, then I am showing that she doesn't have as much > > to be afraid of as you think. > > But not that the fear is not there, Charles. The burden of proof is on *you* for that, Prodigal. She has nothing to *really* be afraid of, and Lilith's writeup is not exactly overburdened with things to indicate that she's prone to irrational fears. So you can please cite what makes you think that Lilith would be afraid of something that's not really to be afraid of? That she's that poor at estimating odds? > > IIRC, Lilith has never lacked for either nerve or wit. > > Neither have any number of people who have failed to leave abusive > relationships in the real world. > > > > People stay in abusive relationships in the real world for far less > > > reason than that, after all. > > > > I still don't understand why people keep claiming that what applies to > > "abusive relationships" between mortals on Earth also applies to Lilith. Would you please remember to put in [snip] markers? Your quotes leave my arguments appearing much choppier and more disjointed than they actuallyl are. > > > No, it isn't. You argue that, if Lilith seeks Redemption, then Heaven > > > will have no reason to destroy her, and that Hell won't be able to catch her > > > in time to stop it. I argue that, if Lilith chooses to leave Hell, then > > > both sides will be trying to kill her. > > > > And you are wrong. > > Not if she leaves Hell for reasons other than Redemption, Charles. Incorrect, see below. Michael -- not just any Archangel, but the biggest gun in the *War* faction to boot! -- is more than willing to cut a deal with a "neutral" rather than kill it. Superiors 1. > > The mere fact that any Bright Lilim have ever existed > > shows that -- if *they* can manage it, Lilith herself is more than > > capable... > > No, it doesn't. Lilim are demons. Lilith is not. Humans can choose between selfishness or selflessnses *easier* than demons can. So yet again, Lilith can do this more easily than any Lilim could possibly hope to. Lilim have succeeded. Therefore, Lilith can more easily succeed. She knows all of this. > > > > Those quotes are accurate, and you cannot show otherwise. > > > > > > You are not arguing against what I have written, however. > > > > Are we backpedaling? First you claim that I am putting words in your > > mouth and straw-manning you. > > Because you have debated against arguments I have not made, yes. Nope, I'm addressing them. Your arguments that Lilith is bound by fear require that there be something that Lilith would actually be afraid of... either that, or that Lilith would be so poor at estimating the odds that she would be paralyzed by a fear of failure that was not actually borne out by the situation. Neither one of these is supported by Lilith's writeups. [snip] > > I don't see how Lilith can possibly believe this, when she sees the Game > > fail to catch Renegades and Redeemers every yaer -- and when she knows > > that she herself is so much more superior than any of those little demons... > > But that she would, as a Princess, be a much higher priority for them. And be a much, *much* harder opponent -- and with the quiet backing of some of Heaven, besides. Even if she didn't want to sign up for the Seraphim Council. > > > I have been arguing for why Lilith does not leave Hell, Charles, and not > > > why she does not seek Redemption. Lilith is almost infinitely more > > > likely to go Renegade or join a third faction than she is to attempt > > > Redemption. > > > > Well, if Lilith is not seeking Redemption, then Lilith has nothing to > > complain about when Heaven puts her in the "Enemy" category > > You're wandering away from my actual arguments again, Charles. Recheck the beginning of this thread. I'm addressing a point made there. > > -- which, as you might recall, was a sticking point of this thread > > waaaaaaaaaaay back in the beginning, that it was somehow 'unfair' for > > Heaven to consider Lilith their enemy. > > Not in any messages I can remember posting, it wasn't. Please allow me to jog your memory, then. http://www.sjgames.com/ftp/sjgames/in-nomine/digests/2000/8/1-1771.txt Excerpt from Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:46:51 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - ---------------- From: "Charles Glasgow" > [snip] > Fine. She wants to declare herself the enemy, she'll be treated as such. > Welcome to the War, Lilith, and you picked your side. You just summed up the exact sort of attitude that ensures her continued alliegance to Hell. [snip] > Only if you rewrite a whole lot of IN history. Or if you entertain the possibility that she made a bad decision in helping out the Fallen, and then had no choice but to make the best of it. - --------------- > > > > But if Lilith makes a run for the border and Redemption... Hell can't > > > > catch her, and Heaven won't kill her. > > > > > > If Redemption is part of the deal. If she is only leaving Hell, then > > > she's fair game for both sides. > > > > Nope, only one. > > Nope, both. Reread Michael's writeup in Superiors 1 and get back to me. *One*. Michael's attitude -- and before you go that Michael isn't all of Heaven, remember that Michael's influence is a pretty major one among the War faction, and that Laurence himself listens respectfully when Michael says he's got a really smart idea -- is *not* "That which is not for me is against me", it's "That which is not against me may someday be persuaded to be for me." IOW, Michael doesn't kill neutrals. He's death on two legs vs. confirmed hostiles, but he's one of the least wiiilng to smack Renegades who don't serve Hell among the whole Host. It's a waste of effort to kill them, and they can be so much more useful in other ways... And a lot of his fellow Archangels follow his lead in such manners. The only who probably would not is Dominic, and Dominic neither rules the Seraphim Council nor does he command the Host. (Indeed, on this matter, Michael and Novalis would be in one of the rare moments of complete agreement. She's definitely the Mercy Advocate of Heaven, and Michael's too crafty an old pro to kill someone who could be used instead. And Lilith would definitely trade some things in return for a safe house and a head start... anybody who's fled Hell has already discarded any loyalty to Hell they might have had, and she's got great mercenary instincts.) > > Even if Lilith *didn't* want to join Heaven, at least two Archangels I can > > think off right of the top of my head would *still* trade protection > > and/or a safe plade to hide out for information -- Michael and Marc. > Both of whom would be put on trial damned quickly if this was ever > discovered, pardon the pun. On what charge? And they could quite convincingly -- legitimately, AAMOF -- argue that Lilith was being treated as a "Someday she'll Redeem, if we don't drive her away or kill her or let them kill her -- so we dealt with her" candidate... there is some precedent for that re: other demons as well. Renegades who have potential, even if they really don't want to Redeem today, *have* been given some aid and a benignly blind eye by Heaven. And Lilith's got potential hanging out her ears. She's so *useful*. > And in the meantime, the hunt for Lilith would continue. .. and she'd most likely be beating it. Freedom is *good* at this.... and she makes no disturbance in the Symphony. BTW, one last thing. I forget who it was who argued that Lilith was bound by her Word, but they did have one point -- Lilith *is* Freedom, even if she's severely into the more selfish aspects of it. The point is this -- if Lilith didn't think that she was freely serving Hell, she would run. She'd *have* to run. Freedom cannot stand to be enslaved -- it's in her dissonance conditions! Merely by virtue of what her Word is, Lilith *has* to be accepting where she is right now.. because if she were being held there even though she wanted to leave, then she'd try to leave. Even if it was a risk. If the only thing holding Lilith in Hell is fear of destruction if she goes anywhere else, then she's not free... she's a slave, bound by fear. And Lilith will not stand for being made a slave. *That* one *is* definite in her history. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:26:45 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Why Lilith is likeable (was EVERY CONCIEVABLE LILITH POST) >I just don't see why so many people want to assume she must be more >sympathetic because (allegedly) Adam mistreated her and she didn't like >God's plan. You could say much the same thing about all the other Demon >Princes -- they all thought they had good reasons for rejecting God and >joining Lucifer. As I said before, most of the DPs probably don't think >of themselves as "evil" in the sense of being _wrong_ or acting in an >unjustifiable manner. David you know to God I hate to argue with you...or at least do now that I've told you... However as much as I'm sick of this i think I need to point out three things that make Lilith lovable to fans. * Lilith's word is not Lust (including Rape, Molestation, and the like), Fate (everything bad), Fire (pyromania), War (Hitler and Stalin), The Game (brainwashing), etc. It's Freedom which people are more sympathetic too because it seems ambigious and a good thing as much as bad. We also don't see Lilith commenting on how her word is enforced by human experimentation either or murder for a punchline (like Vapula and Kobal) either. Nybbas is the closest to her we've seen and frankly people are more scared of the Media that they're willing to give him cautiousness but I think you'll see most treat him better than the other princes too. * Lilith is willing to work with Heaven Unlike with the rest of Hell it seems Lilith is willing to work with the (no pun intended) angels as much as the side of darkness. So she's not actively maleovelent we see so much as out for herself... Pure selfishness is very different that selfishness expressing itself as sadism Dave. Cannon has yet to confirm in rage of Jealously she strangled children and rapes young men instead of taking them willingly...which mind you would likely make her unpopular. * She's the bad girl She's as close to an Anti-hero as you can get in the Black and White In Nomine universe as you can get. She like Gabrielle is also attractive and sympathetic....so she gets the male vote I think too probably as crass as that seems but I think it's true. (Someone mentioned Haagenti's likeability and I agree....it's easier to love your friends than your enemy...or at least the people who'd be fun to hang around with). After all she'd like killing Stalin was as good as releasing a man imprisoned for the murder of hundreds (and people are ignoring the latter I think as part of her word). - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:40:52 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Why Lilith is likeable (was EVERY CONCIEVABLE LILITH POST) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Phipps" To: Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 8:26 PM Subject: IN> Why Lilith is likeable (was EVERY CONCIEVABLE LILITH POST) > >I just don't see why so many people want to assume she must be more > >sympathetic because (allegedly) Adam mistreated her and she didn't like > >God's plan. You could say much the same thing about all the other Demon > >Princes -- they all thought they had good reasons for rejecting God and > >joining Lucifer. As I said before, most of the DPs probably don't think > >of themselves as "evil" in the sense of being _wrong_ or acting in an > >unjustifiable manner. > > David you know to God I hate to argue with you...or at least do now that > I've told you... > > However as much as I'm sick of this i think I need to point out three things > that make Lilith lovable to fans. *Some* fans... > * Lilith's word is not Lust (including Rape, Molestation, and the like), > Fate (everything bad), Fire (pyromania), War (Hitler and Stalin), The Game > (brainwashing), etc. > > It's Freedom which people are more sympathetic too because it seems > ambigious and a good thing as much as bad. Actually, this only makes me dislike her the more. Lilith's Word is not, as you point out, inherently diabolical. Yet she still works as Lucifer's girl. Out of all the forces of Hell, Lilith has the least excuse of them all to still be where she's being and doing what she's doing. Yet she still stays there. By some lights, that makes her one of the worst... not the best. [snip] > * Lilith is willing to work with Heaven > > Unlike with the rest of Hell it seems Lilith is willing to work with the (no > pun intended) angels as much as the side of darkness. So she's not actively > maleovelent we see so much as out for herself... > > Pure selfishness is very different that selfishness expressing itself as > sadism Dave. It's still not very likeable. > Cannon has yet to confirm in rage of Jealously she strangled children and > rapes young men instead of taking them willingly...which mind you would > likely make her unpopular. Never argued this. > * She's the bad girl > > She's as close to an Anti-hero as you can get in the Black and White In > Nomine universe as you can get. True, and I can definitely see where this would get her fan appeal -- but it still doesn't *excuse* her... We weren't really arguing whether Lilith was *likeable, we were arguing (among many other things) whether Lilith was *admirable*. There is a difference. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1777 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.