From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Aug 13 23:00:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20900 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 23:00:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id WAA21028 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:58:13 -0500 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:58:13 -0500 Message-Id: <200008140358.WAA21028@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1778 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, August 13 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1778 In this digest: IN> Superior Dinner Party Re: IN> Superior Dinner Party Re: IN> Why Lilith is likeable (was EVERY CONCIEVABLE LILITH POST) Re: IN>The Superior Dinner Party Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Lilith? IN> In Nomine Nobilis Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Saminga? IN> Website Update (NO Lilith content, except for Superior opinions) Re: IN> Website Update (NO Lilith content, except for Superior opinions) IN> The Malebranche (long) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:33:41 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Superior Dinner Party >Lilith, Eli, Novalis, Janus, Yves, David (provided he doesn't expect me to >cook kosher), Andrealphus, Novalis, Lucifer and Kobal (provided he doesn't >bring his pet along). That's more than would fit around my kitchen table >but twelve is an excellent number for a party. Course, there's a shortage >of females (assuming they all use their favourite vessels) but that's In >Nomine for you. Apart from which, an excess of male company has never >bothered me so I'd notice.. Finally a Non-Lilith topic. personally if I could invite everyone over for a Dinner party I'd invite: Gabrielle Laurence Blandine Zadkiel Yves Haagenti (provided we could figure a way to keep him satisfied) Nybbas Lilith Dominic (I'm sure he'd be polite and keep everyone on their best behavior) Beleth (providing she can behave herself and brings videos) Michael (I don't know why, I hate guys like Michael, then again he reminds me of my brother) Novalis Hmmm maybe Litheroy would be better for Michael. I wonder which superior you'd take out on a date.... Well the only girls I've dated have acted like Gabrielle.... Hmmm something to think about but I keep like Beleth too..hmm. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:46:49 EDT From: Zeresh43@gateway.net Subject: Re: IN> Superior Dinner Party >Blandine >Beleth (providing she can behave herself and brings videos) Are you sure it's a good idea to bring Blandine and Beleth into the same room? >Haagenti (provided we could figure a way to keep him satisfied) How, exactly, would you go about doing that :-) It's nice to finally hear something from this list OTHER than the Lilith thing, and it's about time. Clear Skies Zeresh ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:59:01 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Why Lilith is likeable (was EVERY CONCIEVABLE LILITH POST) Charles Phipps wrote: > However as much as I'm sick of this i think I need to point out three things > that make Lilith lovable to fans. Actually, the reason Lilith is lovable to fans is quite simple: she's a sexy "Bad Girl," and shapely villainesses are always popular. I'm not disputing Lilith's fan appeal. I also don't feel like participating in this thread further, since I don't like feeding trolls. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:31:25 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN>The Superior Dinner Party Ooh, new thread. My Superiors Dinner Party? Well, I'm still pretty new to the IN thing so I'd probably go with the less "intimidating" Superiors. Plus I live in an apartment, so the number should be kept low. And just for fun... Pot Luck! Eli - because he's fun (if you can find him) Novalis - because she knows how to party Jean - because I'm a science geek with a couple of degrees in math and physics, and I think we could relate, plus I'd be playfully picking his brain all night, not to mention asking for some insight on topology for that test I've got coming up... Blandine - an invite, at any rate. She'd show up if she wanted, no worries if she didn't. Marc - hey, somebody's gotta pay for all this food. (Just kidding. But as a Mercurian and a businessman, I'm sure he's seen his share of get-togethers.) Lilith, with whom I'd agree beforehand that in return for the food, fun and neutral-zone stipulations, she promises not to try Geasing anyone for anything, including me. ;^) Nybbas, if he brings the *really* cool new music. Let's imagine... ******************** (The Pot Luck, which I suspect of having been Orchestrated in some manner...) Eli - brought... uh... meat. Apparently an animal no one's ever heard of. He claims he found it in a remote part of Africa. Jean suspects him of engineering the thing solely for the party. Eli just smiles. He wouldn't feed us poison, so the entree tonight is roast beast. Quite good. Novalis brought a wonderful salad. Jean brought rolls. Every dinner needs bread. It's good for you. Blandine showed up! She brought some spiritous liquor from the Marches. It doesn't really have any substance, and it doesn't really get you drunk or high or anything, but it's quite nice. Marc brought dessert, a rare and sumptuous sorbet from France. Lilith, surprising as usual, brings a small bottle of a curious little spice. Suspicious, a couple of the Archangels check it out. It passes muster, and goes on the roast beast. After a taste, we're all glad she did. Nybbas brings mashed potatoes, carved into a shape last seen on Weird Al Yankovic's "UHF." We all get the dual reference. The potatoes are fine. The dinner itself is a loosening-up affair. Eli and Novalis are chatty, Blandine is quiet and reserved. Marc and Lilith verbally spar for a bit and then settle down. Nybbas talks up a storm with whoever will listen to him, the responsibility rotating around the table subtly. I earnestly try to wring some understanding of my current subject of inquiry out of Jean, who keeps amusedly dropping little hints that I *might* be able to piece together this week... (Later) The party has been going on for a while. Nybbas turned out to be a paying risk, since some of those suicidal rock stars have done some *serious* writing since they went belly-up... or whichever position they were found in. Right now the latest Jim Morrison has been switching off with Novalis' latest inspired tune from Jerry Garcia, and there's a definite groove happening. Blandine's friends are all thrilled to see her outside of the Marches for once. She's loosened up enough to throw little dreamlike tufts of light all around the room, so there are soft multicolored glows everywhere you look. Lilith and Novalis are dancing with Eli in the open area of the living room. I'm not much of a dancer, but some of those moves are definitely eye-catching. Jean is talking shop with Nybbas, Marc refereeing. Apparently they've decided to trade little bits of information with Marc judging fair value. Blandine and I are chatting about, well, stuff. A really *wide* range of stuff. Kinda cool. Later, as the party winds down, most of us are chilling and listening to some quiet pieces from Heaven. Nybbas leaves first, then Blandine. As the lights fade, Jean departs to send this instantiation back to work, and Marc decides to see to some business as well. Lilith momentarily seems to try engaging in a staying-contest with Eli and Novalis, but they're not seriously going to leave a puny human alone with her and so they leave pretty much simultaneously, Novalis just vanishing the instantiation and Eli showing Lilith the door. Promising not to follow her back to a Tether, he hangs around outside as she leaves; then he turns, winks, vanishes - and the clean-up is done. It's a miracle. ;^) William ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:32:36 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "Charles Glasgow" > > She has nothing to *really* be afraid of, Except destruction, of course. > So you can please cite what makes you think that Lilith would be afraid of > something that's not really to be afraid of? That she's that poor at > estimating odds? The fact that humans stay in bad situations all the time because the perceived costs of leaving are seen as greater than the perceived costs of staying, and the fact that Lilith is human, albeit a Wordbound one. > > > > No, it isn't. You argue that, if Lilith seeks Redemption, then Heaven > > > > will have no reason to destroy her, and that Hell won't be able to > > > > catch her in time to stop it. I argue that, if Lilith chooses to leave > > > > Hell, then both sides will be trying to kill her. > > > > > > And you are wrong. > > > > Not if she leaves Hell for reasons other than Redemption, Charles. > > Incorrect, see below. Michael -- not just any Archangel, but the biggest > gun in the *War* faction to boot! Michael is not the commander of God's armies, however. Laurence is, and Laurence would be more than willing to kill Lilith, if he had the chance (judging from his opinion of her in Superiors 1, anyway.) > -- is more than willing to cut a deal with > a "neutral" rather than kill it. Superiors 1. Perhaps, but if Dominic ever uncovers proof of him doing this, Michael will face a second trial. And his opinion of her in Superiors 1 indicates that he would be neither able nor willing to trust her enough to put his existence on the line for her. > > > The mere fact that any Bright Lilim have ever existed > > > shows that -- if *they* can manage it, Lilith herself is more than > > > capable... > > > > No, it doesn't. Lilim are demons. Lilith is not. > > Humans can choose between selfishness or selflessnses *easier* than demons > can. So yet again, Lilith can do this more easily than any Lilim could > possibly hope to. No human has ever undergone the dissasembly and reassembly of her component forces that Redemption involves, and so there is no guarantee that Lilith would be left alive and intact if she underwent it. > Lilim have succeeded. > > Therefore, Lilith can more easily succeed. Unless Redemption is deadly to humans, or her Word is the only thing that has kept Lilith alive all these years (which would make Redemption indirectly fatal rather than directly,) of course. > Your arguments that Lilith is bound by fear > require that there be something that Lilith would actually be afraid of... Or for her to believe that there is something for her to be afraid of. > > > Well, if Lilith is not seeking Redemption, then Lilith has nothing to > > > complain about when Heaven puts her in the "Enemy" category > > > > You're wandering away from my actual arguments again, Charles. > > Recheck the beginning of this thread. I'm addressing a point made there. Not by me. > > Fine. She wants to declare herself the enemy, she'll be treated as such. > > Welcome to the War, Lilith, and you picked your side. > > You just summed up the exact sort of attitude that ensures her continued > alliegance to Hell. This is not a statement of Heaven's enmity being unfair, Charles. > [snip] > > > Only if you rewrite a whole lot of IN history. > > Or if you entertain the possibility that she made a bad decision in helping > out the Fallen, and then had no choice but to make the best of it. Neither is this. > > > > If Redemption is part of the deal. If she is only leaving Hell, then > > > > she's fair game for both sides. > > > > > > Nope, only one. > > > > Nope, both. > > Reread Michael's writeup in Superiors 1 and get back to me. I did. He says this about her: "Sometimes she has useful information. And she knows better than to lie about its value. But she should never be trusted. Not even by the Princes. She'd rather be on her own side." Dominic has this to say about her: "She is evil and must be destroyed! Her seductions and Geases have led angels to Trip and Fall. She is *dangerous*." David's opinion? "She's a demon and must be destroyed." Laurence's? "She *chose* to walk away from God." Blandine's? "She's a Princess; what more need be said?" Khalid's? "Freedom - the very fact that it is a *diabolical* Word should tell you its true nature. How bitterly Lilith seeks to enslave others, pretending that she is free." Jordi? "She is obviously corrupt, and must be viewed with deep suspicion." > *One*. As is demonstrated in the quotes immediately above, *Both*. > Michael's attitude -- and before you go that Michael isn't all of Heaven, > remember that Michael's influence is a pretty major one among the War > faction, and that Laurence himself listens respectfully when Michael says > he's got a really smart idea -- is *not* "That which is not for me is > against me", it's "That which is not against me may someday be persuaded to > be for me." In general, yes. But not when it comes to specifically dealing with Lilith. > (Indeed, on this matter, Michael and Novalis would be in one of the rare > moments of complete agreement. Not judging from their opinions on her, they wouldn't. > > > Even if Lilith *didn't* want to join Heaven, at least two Archangels I > > > can think off right of the top of my head would *still* trade protection > > > and/or a safe plade to hide out for information -- Michael and Marc. > > > Both of whom would be put on trial damned quickly if this was ever > > discovered, pardon the pun. > > On what charge? Collaboration with a Renegade Princess. > > And in the meantime, the hunt for Lilith would continue. > > .. and she'd most likely be beating it. My argument is that the hunt would exist; its success or failure negates its existence not one whit. > The point is this -- if Lilith didn't think that she was freely serving > Hell, she would run. Unless she felt herself bound by the bargain which she made, of course (vide her attitude about her Daughters who accept service to a Prince.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:47:36 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "Rolland Therrien" > > > >You then started arguing against the possibility of destroying her being > >easy, rather than my actual argument. > > You originally brought the "Hell and Heaven could easily destroy her" > argument, so don't complain when people start debating against it. No, I did not. My actual argument was that if Lilith left Hell, both Hell and Heaven would declare her fair game for destruction. > >No, it isn't. You argue that, if Lilith seeks Redemption, then Heaven will > >have no reason to destroy her, and that Hell won't be able to catch her in > >time to stop it. I argue that, if Lilith chooses to leave Hell, then both > >sides will be trying to kill her. > > You're saying the moment Lillith walks out of Hell, Both Heaven and Hell > will chase her to her death? No. > Now, if Lillith walks out of Hell and directly enters a Thether of Heaven, > and asks the Senechal to summon his/her Superior because she wants to Redeem > herself, then by the time The Game wises up, it's already too late. If she wants to Redeem herself, yes. > >I have been arguing for why Lilith does not leave Hell, Charles, and not > >why she does not seek Redemption. Lilith is almost infinitely more likely > >to go Renegade or join a third faction than she is to attempt Redemption. > > Ok, I don't see how that would make any more sense after what you said > earlier. You say Lillith would stand no chance if she was a runaway of both > Heaven and Hell, No, I don't. > then you say that if she'd leave Hell, she'd do exactly > what it would take to make herself an enemy of BOTH Heaven and Hell? Since she is so unlikely to seek Redemption as to make the prospect virtually impossible as things stand, yes. > >And in the absence of any reason not to destroy her, why would Heaven not > >continue seeking her destruction? It is you making Redemption a factor in > >your arguments, after all. > > Well, Redemption is one of the usual ways most Demons wanting out of Hell > take. Lilith isn't a demon, however, and there is no guarantee that Lilith would survive it. > >If Redemption is part of the deal. If she is only leaving Hell, then she's > >fair game for both sides. > > Or she starts playing both sides, offering her daughters freely to both > sides, with the Geas condition that no one hunts her. (And the leaders of > each side's War factions would definetly let her live just to get more > Lillim out of her.) The only one of the leaders of Heaven's War faction whose opinion of Lilith doesn't come sdown to "She's a demon! She must be destroyed," is Michael, and his opinion is that Lilith can never be trusted by anyone. The only thing that keeps Asmodeus from trying to take Lilith in is that, for now, she is too useful to destroy. Baal doesn't want Lilith striking out on her own, and Belial doesn't have much use for her as an ally. There is nothing definite about either side's War faction being willing to leave her alive if she went Renegade. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:47:41 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prodigal" To: Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 9:32 PM Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? > From: "Charles Glasgow" > > > > She has nothing to *really* be afraid of, > > Except destruction, of course. Which odds are they cannot successfully deliver -- and Lilith is *great* at figuring the odds. > > So you can please cite what makes you think that Lilith would be afraid of > > something that's not really to be afraid of? That she's that poor at > > estimating odds? > > The fact that humans stay in bad situations all the time because the > perceived costs of leaving are seen as greater than the perceived costs of > staying, and the fact that Lilith is human, albeit a Wordbound one. But not a stupid one. AAMOF, she's quite likely the single most intelligent and perceptive human left in Creation. Lilith is *experienced*. She's one of the best old pros at the game there is. She's a grand champion survivor of Hell's politics -- she has no naivete, she has no unsteadiness of nerve, she has no stupidity. [snip] > > Incorrect, see below. Michael -- not just any Archangel, but the biggest > > gun in the *War* faction to boot! > > Michael is not the commander of God's armies, however. Laurence is, and > Laurence would be more than willing to kill Lilith, if he had the chance > (judging from his opinion of her in Superiors 1, anyway.) You mean this one? "She chose to walk away from God. She cloaks herself in the ideology of liberation, but never forget that she represents the consequences of free will exercised selfishy -- the power to choose Hell over Heaven." Nothing in here mandates that Laurence would kill Lilith if Lilith was trying to escape Lucifer's service. That opinion is written upon Lilith as she currently exists, not Lilith-trying-to-stop-serving-Hell. And don't forget, Laurence is a *Malakite*. One resonance ping and he knows whether or not she's genuinely trying to escape the service of Lucifer... and if she is, no problem. Even Laurence's Enemies List allows for exceptions... that particular exception, at any rate. > > -- is more than willing to cut a deal with > > a "neutral" rather than kill it. Superiors 1. > > Perhaps, but if Dominic ever uncovers proof of him doing this, Michael will > face a second trial. And his opinion of her in Superiors 1 indicates that he > would be neither able nor willing to trust her enough to put his existence > on the line for her. "Sometimes she has information. And she knows better than to lie about its value. But she should never be trusted. Not even by the Princes. She'd rather be on her own side." Michael won't trust her, but he *will* deal with her. And Michael is a *Seraph*. More to the point, he's the First Seraph. Lilith *cannot* hand him a con job -- he'll know whether or not she's genuinely trying to escape Lucifer's service or just feeding him a line, and react accordingly. Besides, you forgot Lilith's opinion of Michael... "He understands about mercenaries and free agents, and I know where I stand in dealing with him. I'm not stupid enough to try to face him in battle or meet him down dark alleys." (Translation -- I *can* deal with him successfully, and I'm *not* stupid enough to try to cheat him.) > > > > The mere fact that any Bright Lilim have ever existed > > > > shows that -- if *they* can manage it, Lilith herself is more than > > > > capable... > > > > > > No, it doesn't. Lilim are demons. Lilith is not. > > > > Humans can choose between selfishness or selflessnses *easier* than demons > > can. So yet again, Lilith can do this more easily than any Lilim could > > possibly hope to. > No human has ever undergone the dissasembly and reassembly of her component > forces that Redemption involves, Incorrect. Redeemed Hellsworn. > and so there is no guarantee that Lilith would be left alive and intact if she underwent it. > > Lilim have succeeded. > > > > Therefore, Lilith can more easily succeed. > > Unless Redemption is deadly to humans, Redeemed Hellsworn. And what is Lilith, if not a Word-bound Superior-level Hellsworn? (She's *not* a demon, but she *has* sold her Fate to Hell in advance of her death...) > or her Word is the only thing that > has kept Lilith alive all these years (which would make Redemption > indirectly fatal rather than directly,) of course. Freedom *can* be a Heavenly word as well as a Diabolic one, even if Lilith currently concentrates on the selfish aspects. > > Your arguments that Lilith is bound by fear > > require that there be something that Lilith would actually be afraid of... > > Or for her to believe that there is something for her to be afraid of. Which would require Lilith to be either stupid, naive, or misinformed -- and she's almost the antithesis of all three. > > > > Well, if Lilith is not seeking Redemption, then Lilith has nothing to > > > > complain about when Heaven puts her in the "Enemy" category > > > > > > You're wandering away from my actual arguments again, Charles. > > > > Recheck the beginning of this thread. I'm addressing a point made there. > > Not by me. [For God's sake, please don't forget the snip markers! Or the attribution markers!] > > > Fine. She wants to declare herself the enemy, she'll be treated as > > > such. Welcome to the War, Lilith, and you picked your side. > > > > You just summed up the exact sort of attitude that ensures her continued > > alliegance to Hell. > > This is not a statement of Heaven's enmity being unfair, Charles. It's quite strong in the implication, but now we're *really* arguing angels on the head of a pin here. > > [snip] > > > > > Only if you rewrite a whole lot of IN history. > > > > Or if you entertain the possibility that she made a bad decision in > > > helping out the Fallen, and then had no choice but to make the best of it. > > Neither is this. Incorrect -- having no choice but to remain trapped in a bad situation *is* unfairness. > > > > > If Redemption is part of the deal. If she is only leaving Hell, then > > > > > she's fair game for both sides. > > > > > > > > Nope, only one. > > > > > > Nope, both. > > > > Reread Michael's writeup in Superiors 1 and get back to me. > > I did. He says this about her: "Sometimes she has useful information. And > she knows better than to lie about its value. But she should never be > trusted. Not even by the Princes. She'd rather be on her own side." > Dominic has this to say about her: "She is evil and must be destroyed! Her > seductions and Geases have led angels to Trip and Fall. She is *dangerous*." > David's opinion? "She's a demon and must be destroyed." > > Laurence's? "She *chose* to walk away from God." > > Blandine's? "She's a Princess; what more need be said?" > > Khalid's? "Freedom - the very fact that it is a *diabolical* Word should > tell you its true nature. How bitterly Lilith seeks to enslave others, > pretending that she is free." > > Jordi? "She is obviously corrupt, and must be viewed with deep suspicion." All of these opinions are written as of Lilith as she is now, not of a Lilith trying to stop serving Hell. And never forget the Seraph and Malakite resonances. They will *know* whether or not she's sincere. (Yes, I know, Superior-on-Superior ineffability... except that Lilith would *let* them read her as part of any attempt to establish sincerity before the negotiations began. She's not stupid.) > > *One*. > > As is demonstrated in the quotes immediately above, *Both*. One... you left out a step in the logic chain. For as long as Lilith retains allegiance with Lucifer, she is their enemy. Which those quotes reflect. Those opinions are subject to change if the situation does. And they will. [snip] > > > Both of whom would be put on trial damned quickly if this was ever > > > discovered, pardon the pun. > > > > On what charge? > > Collaboration with a Renegade Princess. That's not a crime. > > > And in the meantime, the hunt for Lilith would continue. > > > > .. and she'd most likely be beating it. > > My argument is that the hunt would exist; its success or failure negates its > existence not one whit. My argument is that Lilith plays the odds on whether or not she thinks she'll succeeds or fail, not on whether or not it exists at all. If Lilith is truly as bound by fear as you say, then Lilith is a slave. If Lilith is a slave, then she's acting contrary to Freedom. Q.E.D. > > The point is this -- if Lilith didn't think that she was freely serving > > Hell, she would run. > > Unless she felt herself bound by the bargain which she made, of course (vide > her attitude about her Daughters who accept service to a Prince.) Nope. Lilith's writeup makes it plain that as opposed to what she expects from her Daughters, Lilith herself will welch whenever she feels like it. Of course, she calls it 'changing her mind'. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:43:53 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> In Nomine Nobilis I have posted my first draft of In Nomine Nobilis, using Nobilis rules to play a mythic In Nomine campaign. What I've written so far is pretty basic, and I haven't done Superiors/Imperators yet. But if anyone's interested, take a look, and feel free to send me feedback and/or suggestions. http://www.amadan.org/nobilis/IN-Nobilis.html - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:44:54 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? From: "Charles Glasgow" > > > > The fact that humans stay in bad situations all the time because the > > perceived costs of leaving are seen as greater than the perceived costs of > > staying, and the fact that Lilith is human, albeit a Wordbound one. > > But not a stupid one. AAMOF, she's quite likely the single most intelligent > and perceptive human left in Creation. Which does not necessarily mean that the perceived costs of leaving her position in Hell do not outweigh the perceived costs of staying. > [snip] > > > Incorrect, see below. Michael -- not just any Archangel, but the > biggest > > > gun in the *War* faction to boot! > > > > Michael is not the commander of God's armies, however. Laurence is, and > > Laurence would be more than willing to kill Lilith, if he had the chance > > (judging from his opinion of her in Superiors 1, anyway.) > > You mean this one? The same. > "She chose to walk away from God. She cloaks herself in the ideology of > liberation, but never forget that she represents the consequences of free > will exercised selfishy -- the power to choose Hell over Heaven." > > Nothing in here mandates that Laurence would kill Lilith if Lilith was > trying to escape Lucifer's service. Nothing in there mandates that he would not view her as fair game if she left Hell for any reason other than joining the service of Heaven, either. > And don't forget, Laurence is a *Malakite*. One resonance ping and he knows > whether or not she's genuinely trying to escape the service of Lucifer... As Lilith is a Superior, she can render herself immune to Laurence's use of his Resonance (see p99 of the GMG.) > and if she is, no problem. If she does not prevent him from successfully using his Resonance on her, and is trying to escape the service of Lucifer in order to serve Heaven, then yes. If she is not seeking to serve Heaven, however, she's a Princess without Lucifer's protection. > "Sometimes she has information. And she knows better than to lie about its > value. But she should never be trusted. Not even by the Princes. She'd > rather be on her own side." > > Michael won't trust her, but he *will* deal with her. And Michael is a > *Seraph*. More to the point, he's the First Seraph. Lilith *cannot* hand > him a con job She can render herself immune to his Resonance, so she very possibly can. > > No human has ever undergone the dissasembly and reassembly of her > > component forces that Redemption involves, > > Incorrect. Redeemed Hellsworn. Book and page, please? > > or her Word is the only thing that > > has kept Lilith alive all these years (which would make Redemption > > indirectly fatal rather than directly,) of course. > > Freedom *can* be a Heavenly word as well as a Diabolic one, even if Lilith > currently concentrates on the selfish aspects. If she is granted the Word of Freedom after Redemption, then it can be a Divine Word. As her Word was granted by Lucifer, however, it is a Diabolical one (as per p 32 of the Game Masters' Guide.) > > > > Fine. She wants to declare herself the enemy, she'll be treated as > > > > such. Welcome to the War, Lilith, and you picked your side. > > > > > > You just summed up the exact sort of attitude that ensures her continued > > > alliegance to Hell. > > > > This is not a statement of Heaven's enmity being unfair, Charles. > > It's quite strong in the implication, No, it isn't. Your infer something that is not there. > > > > Or if you entertain the possibility that she made a bad decision in > > > > helping out the Fallen, and then had no choice but to make the best of > > > > it. > > > > Neither is this. > > Incorrect -- having no choice but to remain trapped in a bad situation *is* > unfairness. The topic of Heaven's enmity being unfair appears to have drifted slightly here. > All of these opinions are written as of Lilith as she is now, not of a > Lilith trying to stop serving Hell. They would not instantly change if she chose to stop serving Hell, however. > And never forget the Seraph and Malakite resonances. They will *know* > whether or not she's sincere. Not if she chooses to block them, they won't. > (Yes, I know, Superior-on-Superior ineffability... except that Lilith would > *let* them read her as part of any attempt to establish sincerity before the > negotiations began. She's not stupid.) If she was seeking Redemption, she would. If she simply was trying to leave her position as Princess without serving Heaven, however, she would have no reason to let them Resonate her. If she did, they would be able to see that a Princess they hate was now fair game. > > As is demonstrated in the quotes immediately above, *Both*. > > One... you left out a step in the logic chain. The logic chain that involves her seeking Redemption, you mean, which was never part of the logic chain used in my arguments? > For as long as Lilith retains allegiance with Lucifer, she is their enemy. For as long as she refuses to serve Heaven, also. > > Collaboration with a Renegade Princess. > > That's not a crime. It is if she remains hostile to Heaven. > My argument is that Lilith plays the odds on whether or not she thinks > she'll succeeds or fail, not on whether or not it exists at all. As does mine, although mine involves her deciding that the odds are better if she stays in Hell. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 23:44:37 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Saminga? In a message dated 8/13/00 5:58:44 PM Central Daylight Time, prodigal@ticnet.com writes: << In my case, at least, it's because villains with at least a few sympathetic qualities make for more satisfying villains. This would, I expect, be why Haagenti is a great deal more liked by players and GMs than Saminga. >> Actually, Haagenti's never really interested me that much. Really. His word is pretty powerful, I'll admit, but he's never grabbed me. I like Saminga! He's just fun! "Soon, the world will be a wasteland. All life will be destroyed, and I, Saminga, shall reign supreme!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!" I like his dream of Zombi Earth, as stupid and unrealistic as it is. Zombis never last long, and usually require to feed from the living, which will no longer exist if Saminga gets his way. My theory is that Saminga has Zombi 2.0 waiting in the wings, or at least in development. A sturdier, longer-lasting model. But he keeps the old ones around, because they run around killing people. I mean the dumb-ass pretty much invented the mummy (with help from the egyptians), so presumably in all this time he can make a shambling mindless corpse that doesn't fall apart in a week or so. Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:06:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Website Update (NO Lilith content, except for Superior opinions) Evening, everybody: I've stuck some more oddities on my website: one Superior from each side (the DP is Oops, for you wonderful people who actually use this stuff), and a Servitor I somehow missed the first time. This is the _new_ website: I'll be leaving the old one up, but I ain't updating it. The URL should appear below. BTW, I need a opinion on format. My girlfriend was complaining that the fonts were too small (especially the ones for my Heretical Vapula) to be fully legible. It looks OK on my computer, but if any of you have problems along that line, feel free to email me and let me know. I haven't gotten the links up, either. Too many other things to do, and I haven't actually gotten clearance for more than two or three people to link to their sites. One more thing to do. As always, feedback is a slavering Need. ;) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Currently Working in Grand Central Station Tether* *_Another_ thing that's stalled until I come up with a good Infernal Senechal for the NY Subway System. Any suggestions? ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 8/7/00 (this is a guess) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:59:10 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Website Update (NO Lilith content, except for Superior opinions) From: "Maurice Lane" > > BTW, I need a opinion on format. My girlfriend was > complaining that the fonts were too small (especially > the ones for my Heretical Vapula) to be fully legible. I'd recommend bumping up the font size a bit also, Maurice. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 23:57:37 EDT From: Zeresh43@gateway.net Subject: IN> The Malebranche (long) Hey, some time ago I submitted a demon prince named Malacoda. He came complete with his own Band, but I never bothered to submit the Band. So, for the one person who was actually interested in him, here's the Band that goes along with him. Oh, for some background info, the concept is taken from Dante's Inferno, and Malacoda and the Malebranche are mentioned. Just thought I'd point that out, for those who care... Feel free to make fun of this: MALEBRANCHE Demons of Agony With good reason, nicknamed the Black Talons. They are the elite cadre of demons lead by Malacoda given names such as Pigtusk, Catclaw, and Crazyred. They are very rarely fallen angels. The Malebranche are a curious bunch. There are few left, and it seems like there is one less every day, though Malacoda seems to have no interest in creating more of them. They only ever serve Malacoda, and very rarely make the trek up to Earth. Unless you have an entire campaign designed around these lovers of torment, it's best not to allow them as a PC Band. Malacoda doesn't appreciate his demonic hit-squad leaving him to go on 'missions' on Earth. To him, the war does not matter. The only thing that matters is the suffering of damned souls. RESONANCE The Malebranche enjoy suffering, and they have gotten damned good at it over the years. A Malebranche's resonance is for pain and suffering. They know just what to do to make a person hurt. Badly. Being human makes us unique, so what will cause the most suffering on a person is different. Sometimes it'll be emotional suffering. Most times it won't. DISSONANCE A Malebranche gets dissonance the same way any other servitor of Malacoda does (since they are, after all, the only servitors of Malacoda); from abandoning their position as torturers or relieving someone of pain by giving them a soul death. If they merely stop the torture, and resume it on the same target later, then the Dissonance goes away. MANNER AND APPEARANCE If the Lilim are on one end of the spectrum being the closest to being free in Hell, the Malebranche are the most captive, other than the souls of the damned themselves. If you manage to see one of these creature's true personality before he flays you on his pitchfork, you won't learn much. They are created emotionless so they can better fulfil their purpose, but occasionally they learn. It would seem the only emotions they ever learn, however, are those of pain and pleasure (at the expense of others' pain, of course). The Malebranche appear as smaller versions of their master, black-skinned with hunched shoulders and enormous wings. They are most commonly seen carrying hooked staves which they use as grappling hooks, or, occasionally, cooking instruments. The natives are usually the ones being cooked… They are not musically inclined, and asking one to play you a tune probably isn't the best idea… GAME MECHANICS As stated many a time before, the twisted creations known as the Malebranche have one purpose-inflicting pain. Thus, they must know how to best cause pain in their victims. When they use their resonance, use the chart below to figure out just how much they can gather. MALBRANCHE CHECK DIGIT RESULTS 1...You know if the soul is in pain. 2...You know the above - and whether or not the soul is as pained as he can be at the moment. 3...You know all of the above, and, if the soul is not, whether physical or emotional pain would hurt him the most. 4...You know all of the above, and what physical pain would cause the most discomfort (in game terms, +6 to damage roll) 5...You know all of the above, and what emotional pain would cause the soul the most harm. 6...You know all of the above, and anything else necessary. THE PITCHFORKS OF MALACODA Mocked by Nybass for being too clichĂ©, these artifacts are carried by all Malebranche. They are not always pitchforks, sometimes simply being nasty-looking (and feeling!) barbed rods. They act as a Long Sword (adding +4 normally to the damage and requiring the Large Weapons skill), however, that's not all they do. First off, if they have attacked successfully (whether damage was done or not), they hook into the flesh of their victim. He/she must make a strength roll to remove him/herself from the barbs, and in the process takes another check die of damage (no natural modifiers). Second, if a person is reduced to zero body points thanks to this weapon, they are brought back to half of their full body points, and loose a point of essence (which may be then channeled by the user). This halving is cumulative, thus, if a demon gets greedy, he may end up killing his victim (always round down when halving the damage from this weapon, even if that creates a number of zero or less). The weapon can drain as much essence as the person has in them, unless they die first. Clear Skies Zeresh Just thought I'd make myself a contributing member, even if what I contribute is generally useless ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1778 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.