From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Aug 14 20:25:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA00560 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:25:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id UAA13640 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:23:02 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:23:02 -0500 Message-Id: <200008150123.UAA13640@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1781 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, August 14 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1781 In this digest: Re: Prodigal and Charles' rantings on Lilith (was: Re: IN> Lilith?) RE: IN> Lilith? re: IN> Origin of Words (was Re: IN> Lilith?) Re: IN> STOP! (was: Yeeeeesh...) Re: IN> Lilith? Re: IN> Sympathy for the Devil (was Lilith) Re: IN> Sympathy for the Devil (was Lilith) IN> Sehrah: Angel of Folk Music Re: Prodigal and Charles' rantings on Lilith (was: Re: IN> Lilith?) Re: IN> Origin of Words Re: IN> Origin of Words (was Re: IN> Lilith?) Re: IN> Sehrah: Angel of Folk Music Re: IN> STOP! (was: Yeeeeesh...) Re: Prodigal and Charles' rantings on Lilith (was: Re: IN> Lilith?) Re: IN> Lilith? IN> Interesting Lilith observations Re: IN> Contest: Minor Choirs and Bands. Re: IN> STOP! (was: Yeeeeesh...) IN> [ADMIN] NO MUSIC THREADS! Re: IN> Interesting Lilith observations Re: IN> Contest: Minor Choirs and Bands. IN> Another Kobal "Ultimate Joke" take Re: IN> STOP! (was: Yeeeeesh...) Fwd: Re: IN> Interchangable words IN> [ADMIN] 1 week moritorium on the L-girl. Fwd: Re: IN> Sympathy for the Devil Re: IN> STOP! (was: Yeeeeesh...) RE: IN> [ADMIN] 1 week moritorium on the L-girl. Re: IN> STOP! (was: Yeeeeesh...) IN> [DARK VICTORY] Haagenti, Demon Prince of Gluttony ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:19:38 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: Prodigal and Charles' rantings on Lilith (was: Re: IN> Lilith?) > against the forces of darkness. So I don't think this snotfest is going > to end until Beth kicks one or both of them off the list. Any wagers? 3-2 on Prodigal, 3-1 on Charles. And 10-1 that Lilith gets added to the list of Blacklisted Topics. > -David (oddsmaker) Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 15:15:22 -0500 From: Christopher Gerkey Subject: RE: IN> Lilith? > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Glasgow [mailto:cglasgow@hotmail.com] > IIRC, a single Geas/6 lasts for only one year of servitude. > Lucifer would > have to be constantly re-applying his resonance. And what, > 22,000 rolls > in a row (one per year) with *no* Divine Interventions? That presumes that Lilith is limited to the effects of a Geas/6, or that Lilith's personal geases work the way other geases do, or that Lilith's geases on herself work the way her geases on others do. This is the point where you tell me that none of this is supported by canon, which will cause me to smile and nod and gracefully ignore you. =) Topher ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:30:03 -0400 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: re: IN> Origin of Words (was Re: IN> Lilith?) > Return-Path: prodigal@ticnet.com > Merely no longer working for Hell does not preclude actively working against > Heaven, Charles. She has a Diabolic Word, remember? The only way Lilith can > avoid actively working against Heaven is to stop promoting her Word. > > Not so long as she continues to promote the Word of Freedom, she doesn't. > > Not if you are a Wordbound who continues to promote a Diabolic Word. This actually makes me curious on a lot of different issues. Is a word innately Diabolic or Divine? Is Marc's Trade innately for the Divine, or if he went Outcast, would promoting his word in a neutral (or diabolical) way help or hinder him? Is the word tied to the symphony itself, or just one side of the symphony? Ethereals have tethers and followers, does supporting their ideals help them much as support for a word helps a superior? Hrm. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 2000 13:32:37 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> STOP! (was: Yeeeeesh...) On Mon, 14 August 2000, "Rev. Pee Kitty" wrote: > Beth, sorry. Maybe you need to have people fill out a quiz or something > before joining, to prove they read the welcome message.... I second this motion. And I'm completely serious. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 15:32:12 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Gerkey" To: Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 3:15 PM Subject: RE: IN> Lilith? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Charles Glasgow [mailto:cglasgow@hotmail.com] > > IIRC, a single Geas/6 lasts for only one year of servitude. > > Lucifer would have to be constantly re-applying his resonance. And what, > > 22,000 rolls in a row (one per year) with *no* Divine Interventions? > > That presumes that Lilith is limited to the effects of a > Geas/6, or that Lilith's personal geases work the way > other geases do, or that Lilith's geases on herself work the > way her geases on others do. > > This is the point where you tell me that none of this is > supported by canon, which will cause me to smile and nod > and gracefully ignore you. =) And as I said waaaaaay back at the dawn of time, in a post that everyone seems to have ignored -- it's not that you can't make this work, it's just that you can't make this work without either rewriting the writeups and/or inserting large chunks of new speculation into places that the writeups never went. IOW, in your own campaigns, do you as you please. In canon, don't. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:53:37 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Sympathy for the Devil (was Lilith) > > Actually, "low contrast" is code for "hell is cool and stuff." I always thought 'low contrast' was code for 'there isn't a lot of difference between the two sides.' Hilary Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:55:56 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Sympathy for the Devil (was Lilith) >"Not a lot of difference" is indeed called "low contrast" in >IN jargon. "Hell is right" is called "playing backwards." >"Dark" means "Hell is wrong and is winning." "Dark backwards" >means "Heaven is wrong and is winning." "Bright backwards" >is "Hell is right and is winning." OK, so I'm low contrast, but vaguely, murkily dark backwards. Nice to be defined... Hilary Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:08:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Twila Oxley Price Subject: IN> Sehrah: Angel of Folk Music Um. This came to me in the shower over the weekend, and I had to share. (To explain, I work as a folk music columnist for a local magazine, and I have heard the musicians' remarks on the "differences" between the folk community and other forms of music, particularly the fact that it definitely feels like a big family (see "Let's Hear it for the Volunteers" by Mustard's Retreat for one explanation of that). So, forthwith, my write-up of Sehrah, Angel of Folk Music. Comments, corrections, and brick-bats (please not too hard, though!) all welcome. Twila - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Sehrah, Ofanite Angel of Folk Music, Servitor of Stone "This is the music for the people for whom the revolution never stopped." -- David Tamulevich Forces: 13 Corporeal Forces: 3 Str 6 Agi 6 Ethereal Forces: 4 Int 8 Pre 8 Celestial Forces: 6 Wil 12 Per 12 Vessels: Human/3(female); Role/3 (singer-songwriter, "Sara Maclean") Human/3(male); Role/3 (member of the rowdy Brit-folk band, Leal, "Robbie Adams") Skills: Artistry/4, Emote/3, Knowledge (Guitar, various antique instruments, e.g., pibgorn)/4, Singing/5, Driving/3, Savior-Faire/4, Brawling/5 Songs: Harmony (Corporeal-Ethereal/3), Forms (Corporeal-Ethereal/4), Healing (Corporeal-Ethereal/3), Healing (Celestial/4), Movement (Corporeal/3), Movement (Ethereal-Celestial/4), Shields(Corporeal-Etherial-Celestial/4) Attunements and Distinctions Deep Gaze; Master of the Granite Fist Special Rites: + 1 Essence whenever an audience becomes "as one" after hearing one of Sehrah's performances. + 1 Essence whenever a fellow artist is inspired to make the right decision. Sehrah, the Ofanite Angel of Folk Music, has the greatest gig you could imagine. She is always on the move, always inspiring a sense of community and fellow feeling in her audiences, and -- even more importantly -- inspiring other artists in the community to remain "in the family" rather than selling out for the big bucks, or the commercial rat race. She was only named to her Word in the late 1950s, after the Folk Revival began garnering attention in the corporeal world, although she'd been interested in it for several years, beginning with the great collector Francis J. Child in the 1860s. Currently, Sehrah has two vessels, one a singer-songwriter named Sara Maclean, who travels extensively throughout the United States and Canada. Denigrated as "yet another navel-gazing chick" by those who dislike the whole female confessional artist phenomenon, still, Sehrah's career as Sara has brought many of the younger gen-x'ers to the fold, and she enjoys writing songs which subtly encourage them to the Light. While Sara's not on tour, she is known as a recluse in her big old Victorian house, which doubles as her recording studio. Actually, however, Sehrah is still travelling, this time as Robbie Adams, the charismatic multi-instrumentalist of Leal, a rowdy Brit-folk band in the tradition of the Battlefield Band, the Tannahill Weavers, the Oyster Band, etc. etc. etc. Their live shows are always jam-packed with dancers, and they tour extensively through North America and Europe. Robbie, again, when not touring, lives in a house out in the back of beyond, where he's extraordinarily hard to reach. He simply says, "Gotta recharge me batteries, mates", when his band-mates tell him to get a cell phone or SOMETHING so he's not out of touch for weeks,for pities sake. In the Robbie vessel, Sehrah likes to rock-climb and "explore" the wilderness. In either vessel, Sehrah promotes the community aspect of folk music, including counselling younger artists who may be dejected by the "long hard road" to success, or even solvency! She will even quietly contribute to their support, if she finds them worthy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:12:35 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: Prodigal and Charles' rantings on Lilith (was: Re: IN> Lilith?) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com > If anyone who actually has an opinion on the topic wants > to make a final, coherent statement of their opinion, I'd like to hear it. My opinion is that the possible risks of Lilith leaving Hell outweight the certain costs of staying where she is. As a unique being, she has no way of knowing whether renouncing her place as a Princess would strip her of her Word, or what would happen to her if she did lose it. She has seen what happens to humans who wind up in Hell after they die, and it is extremely unlikely that she wants to face the prospect of joining them. Lilith will stay where she is (or feels herself to be) safest, and unless she decides to defect to Heaven, Hell is where she's safest. It's where she can continue trading favors with relative impunity, and every favor she extracts from another Prince or an Archangel makes it that much less likely that they will be out for her blood. > I'd also like to know what, if any, effects that opinion would actually have > 'where the rubber meets the road.' I.e., how this opinion would affect > character interactions with Lilith, or how a GM would use Lilith in an actual > campaign. As long as she did not lose her current abilities, I would have her scrambling to build a third faction in order to put as many layers of protection between herself and both angels and demons as she could. She'd also start judiciously calling in Geases on all sides of the War, in order to provide herself still more protection. > Then I'd like to see where the author believes his (or her) opinion falls on > the 'brightness' and 'contrast' axes. Insofar as Heaven ultimately being the right side, it's bright. The contrast would be about medium, as I see each side trying to accomplish what's best (with each side's definition of "what's best" being suitably shaped by the side they swear loyalty toward, of course.) > If the interested parties would do this for me, I'd appreciate it. (Honest!) There you go, and I'll let you know what you can do for me in return soon enough. ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:23:47 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Origin of Words From: "Galen G. Silversmith" > > Is a word innately Diabolic or Divine? The GMG has a good section about Words, and covers this much better than I can without having my copy immediately at hand. ;;;) My take is that if a Word is granted by God and/or the Seraphim Council, it is Divine. If a Word is granted by Lucifer, it is Diabolical. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:08:23 -0700 From: Rolland Therrien Subject: Re: IN> Origin of Words (was Re: IN> Lilith?) - -----Original Message----- From: Galen G. Silversmith To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Monday, August 14, 2000 1:36 PM Subject: re: IN> Origin of Words (was Re: IN> Lilith?) >> Return-Path: prodigal@ticnet.com > >> Merely no longer working for Hell does not preclude actively working against >> Heaven, Charles. She has a Diabolic Word, remember? The only way Lilith can >> avoid actively working against Heaven is to stop promoting her Word. >> >> Not so long as she continues to promote the Word of Freedom, she doesn't. >> >> Not if you are a Wordbound who continues to promote a Diabolic Word. > >This actually makes me curious on a lot of different issues. > >Is a word innately Diabolic or Divine? Is Marc's Trade innately for the >Divine, or if he went Outcast, would promoting his word in a neutral (or >diabolical) way help or hinder him? Is the word tied to the symphony >itself, or just one side of the symphony? Ethereals have tethers and >followers, does supporting their ideals help them much as support for a >word helps a superior? From what I've read, a Word, in itself, is neither Heavenly nor Diabolical. It's the guy who holds it who makes it Good or Evil. Take Fire, for exemple. The Heavenly version of Fire is a symbol of light, warmth, inspiration and all the good things that come from fire. It's also a symbol of purification by fire, and punishing the cruel by fire. That's Gabriel's version of Fire. Belial, her archrival, ALSO has the word of Fire, but his version symbolises all the negative aspects of Fire: destruction, death, pain, cruelty, etc. Both hold the same word, but they each hold conflicting Intepretations of the word, which nonetheless co-exist. The word of Fire is currently both Heavenly and Demonic, which is one of the reasons why Gabriel is currently going nuts in canon In Nomine: she keeps hearing her word getting distorted with Demonic undertones, 24/7. Having the very core of your being corrupted like that could drive anyone nuts. But, to brings things back to Lillith, her word is neither Good nor Evil, neither Heavenly nor Diabolical. The fact that Lucifer gave it to her is irrelevent. It doesn't make the word of Freedom Evil. Or else one would have to take a long questionning look at the whole "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" bit in the Constitution, and wonder what's the catch. Freedom is neither Good, nor Evil. But Lillith is Evil, by the very virtue of her choice of sides. And her very word, being Freedom, shows that she can NOT be held captive, by ANYONE. I think Prodigal underestimate what a Superior's word represents; it's their being, their nature, their very ability. Janus, being the Wind, can not be kept from moving by anyone. Dominic, being Judgement, is unable to stop judging things as either one thing or another, and can make a precise judgement call on the most confusing issues. Haagenti is Gluttoney, and has a bottomless pit for a stomach, so he will never know an end to his hunger. Valefor is Theft. Thus, there is nothing he can not steal, whether it's a treasure of the hearts of people. Lillith is Freedom. If she wishes to go some where or do something, NOTHING will keep her from doing so. Don't understimate the power of Words. - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:27:09 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Sehrah: Angel of Folk Music From: "Twila Oxley Price" > > Sehrah, Ofanite Angel of Folk Music, Servitor of Stone While Stone would not have been my first choice, I can see why it would work. Good stuff! And I will have to see how I can work her into my own campaign... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 18:22:57 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> STOP! (was: Yeeeeesh...) In a message dated 8/14/00 1:47:14 PM Central Daylight Time, pkitty@brainpuke.com writes: << The topic of "What music goes well with an In Nomine game" has been EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN from this list. (That, and the subject "Who would play whom in an In Nomine movie", overran the list many eons past, to the point that Beth had to close it down and declare it OFF LIMITS.) >> Hmmm. I was rather enjoying the topic. :) Maybe it was worn out a long time ago, before I joined. But since then there have been new members, with new tastes, and new songs have appeared. I figure this topic can safely be returned to once in a rare while, so long as it's not taken to extremes. I also showed up too late to enjoy the Casting Call game, which I've always enjoyed. I played it with my friends when I was playing Amber Diceless. I would've like to have been here for it. I remember I got screamed at when I broached the topic. :) Can anyone tell me roughly the dates that the Casting Call happened? So I can look around the Archives? Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 18:25:25 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: Prodigal and Charles' rantings on Lilith (was: Re: IN> Lilith?) In a message dated 8/14/00 8:16:28 PM, amadan@amadan.org writes: >So I don't think this snotfest is going >to end until Beth kicks one or both of them off the list. Any wagers? > >-David (oddsmaker) I'm in Novalis' camp on this one. ('Give peace a chance!') Besides, I've got a bright lilim PC IMC, and I'm going to pass the ideas on to the player, so she can get some new ideas on her relationship with 'Mom.' Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 18:25:47 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Lilith? In a message dated 8/14/00 2:41:59 PM Central Daylight Time, cglasgow@hotmail.com writes: << > Lucifer: You should become the Princess of Freedom. You'd have > lots of power and everyone would want your favor. > I just want this little promise for insurance. Trust > me, it's a great idea. > Lilith: Okay, sounds sensible to me. > >