From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Aug 16 18:14:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14457 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:14:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id SAA28228 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:11:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:11:19 -0500 Message-Id: <200008162311.SAA28228@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1784 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, August 16 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1784 In this digest: Re: IN> Limits to Lucifer IN> Dark Victory: Vapula and David IN> The worded one (was limits to Lucifer) IN> Re: Limits to Lucifer Re: IN> Dark Victory: Vapula and David Re: IN> I Dunno. "A bloodfeud of Demon Princes" isn't snappy enough, somehow. Re: IN> Dark Victory: Vapula and David Re: IN> I Dunno. "A bloodfeud of Demon Princes" isn't snappy enough, somehow. Re: IN> Dark Victory: Vapula and David IN> Re: Lucifer's Word Re: IN> Limits to Lucifer IN> On Lilith and Bright Lilim Re: IN> On Lilith and Bright Lilim Re: IN> Limits to Lucifer Re: IN> On Lilith and Bright Lilim Re: IN> On Lilith and Bright Lilim Re: IN> list joining restrictions Re: IN> list joining restrictions Re: IN> In Nomine Nobilis Re: IN> list joining restrictions Re: IN> In Nomine Nobilis Re: IN> list joining restrictions Re: IN> list joining restrictions Re: IN> list joining restrictions IN> [ADMIN] No Flaming, ****it. IN> Word-binding (Re: Limits to Lucifer) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:19:59 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Limits to Lucifer - --On Tuesday, August 15, 2000 7:01 PM -0600 ben wrote: >> Here's what I think Lucifer's word... is Hell. > > That would make Lucifer a Seneschal, and Hell a Tether. > > Where is Hell a Tether to? Hmmmmm . . . > The darkest parts of the human soul. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:00:10 -0700 From: "Glenn Brown" Subject: IN> Dark Victory: Vapula and David I like the new write-ups on Haagenti and Malphus. in Dark Victory. Thank you, Redneck. But I'm sorry to hear you don't think Vapula is an interesting character. Personally, I'd think that Dark Victory would mean that Vapula would be getting a fast lesson on why he still needs humans. After all, the collapse of human civilization would seriously reduce the power of Technology. How many factories and laboratories are still operating, now that so many humans are dead, and the world economy has been so thoroughly disrupted? I should think Vapula would be seriously interested in finding a way to stop Saminga, particularly since he despised Saminga even before the Apocapypse. Unless Vapula has taken advantage of Heaven's defeat to put robotic factories on the moon, or something, he almost has to be worried about the future of his Word. This suggests, I would think, that he can't be so focused on the experiments with David as you suggest, unless he's learning something REALLY important. What could it be? I wondered, when I first read the Dark Victory scenario, if Vapula's experiments on David might ultimately lead to Vapula learning enough about angels to realize he isn't really one himself? Or perhaps while trying to find a way to create Malakim himself, he accidentally turns himself into a Elohim? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:06:05 NZST From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: IN> The worded one (was limits to Lucifer) Why is it that the traditional Prince of Darkness is so hard to come to terms within the IN Universe. Why all these flights of fancy with words like "Evil" and "Hell" and "Selfishness". Think about it for a sec. Lucifer would never restrict himself to a word that had bounds. He reserved for himself the advisory role in Hell because for him, being restricted to one facet of The War would not allow him the freedom to switch into his many personalities and actions. Evil is Darkness to Heaven - Lucifer said himself to all the young demons that there was Darkness before God raped it of its Purity by creating Light. Hell is the farthest place from God, the place most removed from the Light of Heaven, and therefore complete and utter Darkness. "The seat of desolation, void of light save what the glimmering of these livid flames casts pale and dreadful." to quote Milton on behalf of Lucifer. Selfishness is to a Balseraph as Protection is to a Cherub - If there ever was a Band to hold that word it would be them... however it is too much a universal concept to be given to ANY demon, just like Selflessness cannot be given to an Angel. God is the only being powerful enough to hold a candle for these words of immense power. Other words embody aspects of the self and selfless but never can touch the nature of these Words.... if they are Words. Lucifer is powerful there is no doubt about that, but God is the only one who can embody the power of Human, Angelic and Demonic nautre at the same time. The Darkness of Hell comes from the one biggest Joke Kobal and Lucifer have ever created. Why do you think he is called "The Lightbringer" or "The Son of the Morning Star"? It is because of the Irony. He IS the Prince of Darkness. The Darkness that is Hell, the DP's and beginning of The Universe as far as he is concerned. The other idea is that he has no word at all. Just like God. Lucifer simply is. He needs no Word to embody and no concept to impose upon the Symphony. Just like God is The Symphony, His Personal Symphony shuts it all out - The First of The Fallen stands as ineffeble as God. His limits defined only when he chooses to wield his power. For the most part though he never needs to. Hell runs fine with the DP's squabbling and meddling, just like Heaven runs fine without God's interference. Puzzle that one out Alex ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 02:16:06 EDT From: SdshowTim@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: Limits to Lucifer >2:) The Lower Hells I just had an idea. What if the Lower Hells is the final resting place of all damned souls. As in when a soul is slain, as in one big ol' cosmic graveyard. Basically when anything damned, unworthy of Heaven and generally considered the property of Hell is soul-killed or even just looses all celestial forces the final celestial force, the essential part of the soul, is sucked down to the Lower Hells. Without the rest of the soul to hold it in place the law of Like drawn to Like kicks in strong enough to pull it to the Lower Hells. There all the dead souls of the damned float around as a sort of massive pool of Forces which Lucifer uses as a source of essence as well as for power. The jump start to his power were those slain durnig the Rebellion. Princes may have noticed that if they rip a soul appart they loose a single celestial Force, and if one follows it they end up in the Lower Hells. Likewise that may be why even Princes don't like going down there. Millions upon millions of soul pieces, unable to interact with reality properly, trapped entirely within their own symphony (not neccesarly bad for them) and capable of drawing others in. I don't kow how the soul grubs would fit in with this, probably the pit would simply not be backing up and the grubs would have succeded in landing in the Lower Hells. They may still be grubs, having been reduced to such a low state. Essentially this gives Lucifer a lot of essence, a lot of Forces (though not all with him at once) and thus lots of power. This is all independent of actually having a Word. As the ruler of the Lower Hells he gets access to all its power. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 07:28:23 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Dark Victory: Vapula and David >I wondered, when I first read the Dark Victory scenario, if Vapula's >experiments on David might ultimately lead to Vapula learning enough about >angels to realize he isn't really one himself He knows very well that he isn't an angel. But 'angel' is really just a name for a genus of celestials. In itself, it implies nothing about being closer to God, or doing His will -- whatever they like to think. The whole angel/demon taxonomy is one of those stupid fallouts from the War. Even lowly mortals, if properly mentored (by a servitor of technology), can play their part in doing God's will! jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 03:42:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> I Dunno. "A bloodfeud of Demon Princes" isn't snappy enough, somehow. - --- Prodigal wrote: > From: "O. S. Kerr" > > > > How about a Pride of Princes...? > > Nah, that's the term for a group of Balseraphs. > A deception of Balseraphs. O. ===== ** The trouble with being the Best Man at a wedding is that you never get to prove it. ** ** I minored in behavioral psychology. Tragic irony and human suffering are just hobbies. ** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 07:11:06 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Dark Victory: Vapula and David - --On Tuesday, August 15, 2000 11:00 PM -0700 Glenn Brown wrote: > I wondered, when I first read the Dark Victory scenario, if Vapula's > experiments on David might ultimately lead to Vapula learning > enough about angels to realize he isn't really one himself? Or > perhaps while trying to find a way to create Malakim himself, he > accidentally turns himself into a Elohim? I don't think he'd care either way, after that. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("What?") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 07:30:48 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> I Dunno. "A bloodfeud of Demon Princes" isn't snappy enough, somehow. - --On Wednesday, August 16, 2000 3:42 AM -0700 "O. S. Kerr" wrote: > > --- Prodigal wrote: >> From: "O. S. Kerr" >> > >> > How about a Pride of Princes...? >> >> Nah, that's the term for a group of Balseraphs. >> > > A deception of Balseraphs. > Uh, no, a group of balseraphs is called a "pride." See our earlier discussion (and the clever joke by Prodigal) titled "Six Fists of Calabim came a knockin'". What about a "conclave" of princes? Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("You have no idea how hard it was to not make the joke and call a group of princes a 'revolution'.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 07:03:27 -0500 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: Re: IN> Dark Victory: Vapula and David At 11:00 PM 8/15/00 -0700, you wrote: >I like the new write-ups on Haagenti and Malphus. in Dark Victory. Thank >you, Redneck. But I'm sorry to hear you don't think Vapula is an interesting >character. Personally, I'd think that Dark Victory would mean that Vapula >would be getting a fast lesson on why he still needs humans. After all, the >collapse of human civilization would seriously reduce the power of >Technology. How many factories and laboratories are still operating, now >that so many humans are dead, and the world economy has been so thoroughly >disrupted? On the contrary; in their desparation to salvage -anything- from the old civilization, the surviving humans are in many places trying desperate measures, often without regard for consequences, so experimentation is alive and well. The Word of Technology should not imply the -highest- level at all times- it is but the application of knowledge gained by trial and error to practical uses. Also, Vapula and his Servitors are getting more use out of humans than ever before. It's so much easier to get good test subjects now... >This suggests, I would think, that he can't be so focused on the experiments >with David as you suggest, unless he's learning something REALLY important. >What could it be? As has been said elsewhere, Vapula's not entirely obsessed with David. He has other projects, including the creation of monsters such as the Jerseys, the experimentation with humanity, and generally anything that goes BOOM. Vapula doesn't like Saminga, but he doesn't care at -all- who runs Hell, so long as they leave him alone. >I wondered, when I first read the Dark Victory scenario, if Vapula's >experiments on David might ultimately lead to Vapula learning enough about >angels to realize he isn't really one himself? Or perhaps while trying to >find a way to create Malakim himself, he accidentally turns himself into a >Elohim? Not hardly; although they would have been difficult to get before the Apocalypse, it is almost certain that Vapula had a few Angelic test subjects -before- the Last Battle. Vapula is interesting in and of himself, but he hasn't -changed- substantially as a result of Armageddeon, which was my original point. Redneck Kris Overstreet, aka Redneck Gaijin publisher, White Lightning Prod. - www.wlpcomics.com I ***LOATHE*** Microsoft Outlook. Please get Eudora. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 09:13:44 EDT From: Daedalus3D@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: Lucifer's Word << 1:) Lucifer's Word His word is "Light" >> Check that. His word was light BEFORE he fell. Big difference. As it says somewhere, all angels lose their Words when they fall. Of course, Lucifer, being the incredible cosmic being that he is, could have easily given himself another Word if he wanted to. I question whether the Lord of Hell would bother, though. Why would Lucifer want to limit his evil to a certain concept? However, if you disagree and must give the Prince of Darkness a Word, then go ahead and make Lucifer the Prince of Darkness. It would be perfect as the demonic reflection of his old word, and, if you think about it, everybody calls him the Prince of Darkness anyway. Later. Daedalus/Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 09:45:33 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Limits to Lucifer As to what Lucifer's Word is... If Lucifer can GRANT Words (and, indeed, is the only demon to do so, maybe the only one who can do so), then isn't his Word likely to be whatever he wants it to be at the moment? Maybe that's the trick. When Lucifer fell, he lost his Word of Light, just as any Word-bound celestial loses their Word on changing sides. But, instead of grasping for *a* new Word, he wanted ALL the Words. He can't really do that, but he learned Word-juggling instead. This lets him adjust his own Word to the needs of the moment and bind Words to others. How was he able to do that? Perhaps from knowledge retained from his old Word of Light, which would have subsumed a lot of things like Knowledge and Revelation. Michael and Yves might have been able to do the same, had they fallen. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:16:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner-Thornber Subject: IN> On Lilith and Bright Lilim [Note: This has nothing to do with the current thread.] "Everything I had been told," Daimon said, "Everything I had been lead to believe, did not do justice to the full horrifying impact of the truth." Lilith and Adam were not humans in the same sense of the humans currently living on the Earth. They had not been evolved from the slime of the oceans. Their ancestors were not small tree-dwelling creatures. Their forebears had never lived in caves. They did not live by hunting with crude spears and picking berries from trees. In a sense, they were not humans at all. Humans were animals, under Jordi's domain. But when God made their hard, immortal, golem bodies from the clay of the earth, presented to Him by the Angel Azrael, He imbued them with essence of those creatures down on the earth possessed -- but amplified, realized, forged into a soul. He fuzed souls into their golem shells, and He breathed into them the essence of humanity as He marked their forms with the symbol that would bring them to life. The golem bodies of Lilith and Adam were designed to withstand the pressures of the Ethereal and the Celestial. They were, in fact, designed to last forever. They were perfect human beings. God knew they were humans, and that is why he put them into the Garden of Eden. God knew what was to come next, and he watched the great game play out. The outcome had long been preordained before there had been an Earth, or a Yves. He did not keep the angels of the rebellion from teaching Lilith the secrets of Kabbalah when he could have with a wave of a hand. He did not stop Adam from learning about lust in his small, walled world. He did not stop the experiment when His two subjects began to display their emotion. When Lilith delved into ultimate selfishness, demanding power over faith, demanding she have have her world alone without her Creator, God merely smiled. When she uttered the most unholy of words, broke open a rift between the Garden and the world, and fled into the arms of Lucifer, God nodded and said, "As it was ordained." For not even Lilith, with all her knowledge of magic and sorcery, could ultimately leave God. And when God made Eve, and she caused Adam's fall, God nodded his head, and said, "As it was ordained." Lilith went to Hell, into the arms of her new lover. She knew nothing of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam went into the world, eyes full of pain, for he knew it all too well. And from there, Adam disappeared to give his blood and seed to generations of creatures living in caves, and to bring them with his semen the spark of humanity that God have given him. It was as it was ordained. "When it happened, I didn't want to be part of the War anymore," Daimon said. "I didn't want to see. I didn't want to know. I wanted to put my hands over my ears and scream and cry until my voice was hoarse and blood ran from my eyes." Lucifer examined Lilith with interest. Already bored with the new petty politics which surrounded him, the Lord of Lies decided to play. He grafted Forces onto Lilith, hoping to create a creature of darkness that would be a proper wife to his own. What greater irony than to have the dark creature of God's own making on the throne next to him, to rule for eternity? But Lilith was not built like a demon. Some forces took, some did not, and she was in agonizing pain. She was changed, but not enough - -- she was still and would always be the hard shelled creature with the eyes of a human being. She might leave, Lucifer realized in the midst of his experiments. She had left once. He couldn't have that. She was his toy. She was his pet. He _possessed_. He came upon an idea, and he gave the twisted, agonized form before him what he needed to bind her eternally to his side. He gave her a Word. He would have his Queen in Hell. Lilith, full of hatred for the God who had made her and allowed her to become the twisted being she now was, and seeing the power in the dark Word she had been given, agreed to the Dark Prince's demands and did as he commanded. She bound herself to Hell, and there she decided to plot her vengence against an uncaring God. Lilith, twisted, evil and full of the knowledge of sorcery, let the demons out of Hell. God may have made the world, but she would help destroy it. "I wanted to go back to Italy where I was born, where it was green and warm. I wanted to see the sea. I wanted to back there to die. I was convinced I was dying." And, like all humans, time heals all wounds, and Lilith found herself, sitting in her spiral tower built by her new lover, Andrealphus, realizing her loss. She felt what few demons truly feel: the pang of regret. For all her power and all her knowledge, she had cast herself far from God's love. The hole in her soul was a sucking wound, bleeding and oozing and demanding to be filled. She had to fill the hole in her soul. Lilith cast about frantically, She was among refugees of a losing War, their eyes full of misery and dark cruelty. She cast about to get a shred of that love back, any love, any love at all. She clung to the ex-Archangel of Love, and begged him to tell her something, anything, anything at all. But Andrealphus, with his eyes full of tears, told her he could no longer love, not even love God. She was determined to get some of that love back anyway she could. She reached out with her hands, and gathered some some of the clay of the earth, and using the knowledge that she had learned in the Garden, she fashioned for herself a creature, much like herself. She needed a soul to bring it to life, so she cast out and grabbed the forces she needed from a wailing demon. She spun her sorcery, and brought forth a lovely, big eyed creature whom she was convinced would love her in return. Her Lil would love her forever. But the green creature, eyes filled with hatred, had the soul of a demon and did not love Lilith. The creature screetched like a banshee. It hated it's maker. It demanded its freedom. It loved not, and it wanted to fill its soul with the adoration of others. Lilith had created a creature that mirrored herself. Kobal laughed, for it was as great a dark joke as even he could conceive, and made of Lilith a great mockery. Lilith destroyed her first Lil. And the second. And many dozens afterward, devouring them like a hungry mother, like Cronos eating his children whole. All she made were the same -- uncaring, evil, selfish creatures who were, undeniably, demons. "But I wasn't dying. I was simply going mad. I couldn't handle the change," he said. "I suppose, in the end, I had simply wanted to be an angel like a Mercurian or an Ofanite, and I had to realize it would never, ever happen." Lilith began to be choosy about the quality of souls she used in her experiments. She researched spells, and learned how to bind her children to her, forcing them, if they did not love her, to give her company in her time of darkness. She invented the geas, and claimed it as part of her Word. She tried intelligent souls, crafty souls, cruel souls, and powerful souls. She even accepted forces from her lover Andrealphus, her mate Lucifer, or even from some of the others -- Kobal wanted to experiment to give himself something to do, Kronos was facintated with the binding of the power of God into the clay bodies, Baal wanted the supremely selfish agents he could control. Lilith took notes. She learned. And she knew that she could not create a creature who would fill up her insistant Need to be loved using the souls of creatures of darkness. She bid her creations, those she let live, to seek and discover angels who had strayed from their paths. A few were captured and Lilith pulled their forces from their bodies as they screamed, one by one. She bound the souls into the clay bodies of the golems, and watched. The results were different than before. These creatures had a spark of something else to them. They looked a little different, just different enough to bely their angelic roots. They talked differently. They believed in God. And they tried to love. But they were broken. They quickly went insane. They could not love their mother. They did not have enough love to give her to fill the void in her soul. She drove them off the edge with here insistant demands. Lilith cast these broken Lilim into the world where they wandered. Many were mad. Some were destroyed by angels and demons. Some became prophets and seers. One, believing he was was doing what the universe Needed, allowed himself to be martyred by the Romans in Jerusalem for his heresy during Passover. "I was reeling from the full impact of my Humanity. I would never be an angel, even if I carried an angelic soul. I would never again be a demon, and it's debatable I ever was one in the first place. I was a human, the way God had made his humans in the beginning. And I didn't know how to handle it." Lilith experimented wildly. With the coming of Vapula, she worked with him to chart the combinations of souls. Human and demon. Human and angel. Ethereal and human. The combination created different and varied Lilim. With each new child, Lilith would ask, "Do you accept these chains on condition of your birth?" And as each child said yes or no, she would keep or destroy. Those who said yes, she would then ask, "Do you love me?" Most said no. They wanted to be loved, not love. They were selfish. They were still demons. Lilith let them live, however. With the politics in Hell, she needed the fodder to keep the other Princes happy. She handed those who were demons to the other princes. "Do what you wish," she said while still holding onto the chains of her children. The few who said yes... The few who said yes would be smothered, loved, milked dry and wrung of every last drop of emotion until they were crushed. Some of these fled into the world, some fled into the service of Princes, and some died. Most died. A few escaped. Fewer redeemed. "I recovered from my madness in time. It was difficult, but I found peace and knew that this was part of God's plan. So I stretched out a hand of my golem body, trapped in a vessel." He stretches out a hand and looks at it in the light. "I wonder, sometimes, if I could live without a vessel, on the earth, as God intended." The redeemed, Bright Lilim were confused creatures. They had not become angels as the other demons who follwed their paths had. They still retained their few powers. They still looked the same. The madness overtook them. They begged the angels to tell them what and who they were, but the angels did not know. They begged Yves, and asked, in his infinite wisdom, to give them an identity, and he told them that they must now walk among the humans as Adam did, as the Grigori did, and as the Nephalim do now, and be with their people. That was their place. They did not understand. Their hard, marble bodies glissened in the sunlight of heaven, more radiant than any mortal soul. Their angelic-tainted souls sprouted wings so that they could fly. But inside, like Lilith, they were, too, human. Like Lilith, they would live for an eternity in their bodies, bound their by the tetragrammatron Lilith uttered when she made each and every one of them. Lilith had trapped them there, using the power of God she had learned so long ago in the Garden of Eden. And God said, "This is as intended." "I can't bear the light of Heaven very well," he said. "Not that it isn't beautiful and right, but my soul knows that it isn't time yet, and my place is on Earth." Angels, today, struggle to make a place in Heaven for the Bright Lilim that Lilith has created. They are rare, some attunements do not take, and some are destroyed when they gain new forces. They're delicate, strange creatures who don't act like angels and aren't entirely human, either. They've seen too much. Demons continue to employ dark Lilim in droves. The Lilim love the attention. And Lilith, poor Lilith, sits in her tower staring into the empty eyes of Andrealphus and the greedy eyes of Lucifer, a Queen in Hell, twisted in agony of the great surgery the Lord of Lies performed, her soul devoid of any love at all. She has been well punished for her Fall. God has planned a great drama using the children of Lilith. It was for them she was created, and she lives now. But no one knows what this plan is -- not even Yves. He allows them to be cast about, to be destroyed, to fall prey to the void and the War without heed to their understanding. It is ineffible. It is as God wills. "Although, I feel a great Need in the universe. I think, that when God Needs something monumental, he calls upon one of us. What I pray is that one day he will call on one of us to save our people from Lilith's Original Sin, and thereby open Heaven to all Lilith and all her children." - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner-Thornber -- http://www.nodonut.com/zenith "If you feel in your heart of hearts that you plan on voting for George W. Bush, I have a suggestion. Draw yourself a nice, hot bath. Bring the television into the room. And then DRAG IT INTO THE TUB WITH YOU!" - Lewis Black, The Daily Show ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:35:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Twila Oxley Price Subject: Re: IN> On Lilith and Bright Lilim Wow. Oh wow. Twila ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Limits to Lucifer Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:01:16 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Limits to Lucifer >Here's what I think Lucifer's word... is Hell. >That would make Lucifer a Seneschal, and Hell a >Tether. >Where is Hell a Tether to? Hmmmmm . . . Ben Beats me, but I've been playing with the idea of the Lower Hells being a Tether to ... Hell. Just not the Hell that you came from. :) Morgan ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 8/7/00 (this is a guess) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:33:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> On Lilith and Bright Lilim I can't decide if that was a brilliant as it was dark, or as dark it was brilliant... but it hit a chord inside. I don't know if I'd ever want to go *that* dark in my games, but I owe you one for giving me another perspective. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "When nothing's funny, it gets easy to laugh at the drop of a hat - or a bomb." -- Devo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:04:24 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> On Lilith and Bright Lilim Very good. Very interesting. The ceramic First Family and Lilim blend the ideas of golem and the glorified-and-armor-plated versions of Adam and Eve that I saw posted once before on the list, taken from some legendry or other. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:00:06 -0500 (CDT) From: "Derek K." Subject: Re: IN> list joining restrictions I'm for this. Several password proctected chat servers and such I know of do this - there is a line which reads "Your password is FuejKDjeidk" somewhere in it, but it's not obvious. And hopefully it makes you read the welcome message. Maybe it is slightly elistist, but I think that may be what contributed to some of the problems on the net - people stopped having any sort of standards, and just accepted anything. Netiquette died a painful death because people let it. Whew. Sorry. I'll stop before I go any farther. But I vote aye. Cheers, Derek K. Angel of Anti-spam, Ofanite in service to Bun-Bun. Ka-click. Not Lurking much any more. On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: > >"THERE IS A PASSWORD REQUIRED TO JOIN IN_NOMINE-L. Don't worry, it's found >somewhere in this welcome message, un-hidden and un-obfuscated, clearly >labelled. Just read this entire email and you will have no problems." > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 19:25:57 GMT From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> list joining restrictions >From: "Derek K." >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> list joining restrictions >Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:00:06 -0500 (CDT) >I'm for this. Several password proctected chat servers and such I know of >do this - there is a line which reads "Your password is >FuejKDjeidk" somewhere in it, but it's not obvious. And hopefully it >makes you read the welcome message. Maybe it is slightly elistist, but > I think that may be what contributed to some of the problems on >the net - people stopped having any sort of standards, and just accepted >anything. Netiquette died a painful death because people let it. > > >Whew. Sorry. I'll stop before I go any farther. But I vote aye. Well, seeing as how I'm allegedly an example of the 'problem' that needs to be excluded from the list, let me toss a data point into the ring -- a password protection as of the method you describe wouldn't have stopped me. - -- Chuckg ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 15:28:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Nobilis Interesting ideas. As I recall, the author of Nobilis is or was a member of the IN list, and I thought when I first saw it that it seemed inspired by the IN concept of Words. I don't know if this is true or not, of course. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:42:55 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> list joining restrictions Charles Glasgow wrote: > Well, seeing as how I'm allegedly an example of the 'problem' that needs to > be excluded from the list, let me toss a data point into the ring -- a > password protection as of the method you describe wouldn't have stopped me. The problem people are hoping a password would solve is people who restart old, dead threads like IN casting calls and soundtracks. The theory being that if they read the welcome message thoroughly enough to get the password, they'll have also read the part about not starting those specific threads. Nothing except judicious use of the u n s u b s c r i b e command will solve the problem of trolls. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:44:44 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Nobilis Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Interesting ideas. As I recall, the author of Nobilis is or > was a member of the IN list, and I thought when I first saw it > that it seemed inspired by the IN concept of Words. I don't > know if this is true or not, of course. The author of Nobilis is R. Sean Borgstrom, who has written for several In Nomine books (most recently, she was my coauthor for the Ethereal Player's Guide). I doubt Nobilis was directly inspired by In Nomine, though they share many of the same themes. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 19:48:59 GMT From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> list joining restrictions >From: David Edelstein >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> list joining restrictions >Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:42:55 -0500 > >Charles Glasgow wrote: > > Well, seeing as how I'm allegedly an example of the 'problem' that > >needs to be excluded from the list, let me toss a data point into > the >ring -- a password protection as of the method you describe > wouldn't have >stopped me. >The problem people are hoping a password would solve is people who >restart old, dead threads like IN casting calls and soundtracks. The >theory being that if they read the welcome message thoroughly enough to >get the password, they'll have also read the part about not starting >those specific threads. What I was referring to was the fact that I *did* read the welcome message (and not skim it, either) when I came aboard... but by the time the music thread started up, I'd forgotten about that particular clause, it having been a couple weeks. Hence my participation in the music thread. It's not just enough to read the message on subscribing -- because I am certain that most everyone who participated in the thread *did* do that. You've also got to get them to remember it in full detail on down the line, and that won't always happen even with the best will in the world. Or an entry password. >Nothing except judicious use of the u n s u b s c r i b e command will >solve the problem of trolls. *ahem* Was that last sentence really necessary? - -- Chuckg ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:17:41 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> list joining restrictions In a message dated 8/16/00 7:50:13 PM, cglasgow@hotmail.com writes: >Freiherr Edelstein screibt: >>Nothing except judicious use of the u n s u b s c r i b e command will >>solve the problem of trolls. > >*ahem* > >Was that last sentence really necessary? > >-- >Chuckg Possibly. (At least in my opinion...) People who get caught up in the glory of point-by-point debate forget several things, in my experience: First, that there needs to be a point. If no one can tell your position from a single post, there's something wrong. Second, in formal debate, each individual gets a single rebuttal. If you've just made your third 'Yes it is' response to someone else's third 'No it isn't,' you're falling into schoolyard tactics. Third, 'facts' have nothing to do with role-playing. When it comes down to it, the most compelling argument is not 'This is what the rules say,' unless you're discussing mechanics. The most compelling argument is 'This fits best with the campaign I'm running/in.' Fourth, no matter how compelling the argument, some people still have to pay for download time. If you've got more than 15k of text devoted to a topic, *someone's* going to be peeved. (Again, all this is my opinion.) Mark ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 2000 21:42:38 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re: IN> list joining restrictions On Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:00:06 -0500 (CDT) "Derek K." wrote: >[snip] Maybe it is slightly elistist, but > I think that may be what contributed to some of the problems on >the net - people stopped having any sort of standards, and just accepted >anything. Netiquette died a painful death because people let it. > there's a world of difference between holding to standards and being elitist. -=|horsefly|=- "But hey, you're the squirrel. You do the talking." --OOC comment from one player to me, playing a Kyriotate ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:49:35 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> [ADMIN] No Flaming, ****it. Okay, I think the offenders know who they are. (They'd better.) Stop it right now or I'm going to be assembling a "Chronic Offenders" list of who starts getting into flame territory and then cools down when I bring out the firehose -- and axing them the _next_ time they get into flame territory, _before_ I have to go through this Very Annoying "warning stage." You ought to know where the line is by now. Toe it. - --Beth, who _was_ having a nice day, but has amazingly gone into full b****-mode after reading a half-dozen posts. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 19:20:48 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Word-binding (Re: Limits to Lucifer) At 9:45 AM -0500 8/16/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: [Word-binding] > Michael and Yves might >have been able to do the same, had they fallen. In our INCREDIBLY NON-CANON* stuff, (IOC, IOW**), Kronos also has the ability (almost certainly) to Word-bind. He just never does. Maybe he doesn't know he can. Maybe he just lets everyone think Lucifer is the only source of Words in Hell. Maybe Fate has some Word-bound no one knows about... *If some future author decides to make that canon, I will be perfectly NEUTRAL on the subject and will let the concept live or die on its own merits. (Heck, I might even suggest that it works better as a rumor.) Likewise, if whoever gets him doesn't delve into that, I care naught. Far as I know, it's in Limbo either way at the moment, and can stay there till someone starts waving dead trees around. **Look! Alphabet soup! - --Beth, typing w/a baby (iolanthe) on her chest. Vapitalizatoin & spelling difficult, typing w/1 hand & supporting baby w/other. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1784 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.