From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Sep 5 14:06:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05592; Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:06:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA25401 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:05:07 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:05:07 -0500 Message-Id: <200009051905.OAA25401@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1806 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, September 5 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1806 In this digest: Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help Re: IN> I am being overruled... Re: IN> Rain, rain, go away (why the heck are no Archangels Re: IN> I am being overruled... Re: IN> Rain, rain, go away (why the heck are no Archangels for the Weather?) Eli & Dominic (was Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help) Re: IN> I am being overruled... Re: IN> Ethereals in the Celestial Realm Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help IN> Funny link IN> Fwd: The Shattered Ones: Prelude Notes Re: Eli & Dominic (was Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help) Re: IN> I am being overruled... Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help Re: Eli & Dominic (was Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help) Re: Eli & Dominic (was Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help) Re: Eli & Dominic (was Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help) Re: IN> Malakanaries. Re: IN> Contest Posted. Re: IN> Cathexis (Warning: High squick factor) IN> Squicking David? (Re: Cathexis) Re: IN> Ethereals in the Celestial Realm Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help Re: IN>A Vignette Re: Eli & Dominic (was Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help) Re: Eli & Dominic (was Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:38:43 NZST From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help >On 5 Sep 2000, 13:38, Alex Liddell wrote: > > Dominic will NOT help creation, and creation DOESN'T ask for his help. > > Asking Dominic for help is likely to bring a triad down on you. > >Hmm. That doesn't sound (no pun intended) Just. > >Creationer Angel #1: "I need help taking down a demonic tether." >Judgement Angel #2: "Yikes! A Creationer! Call the Inquisition!" >Creationer Angel #1: "Woah - what language did you hear me in?!" I think that the Creationer who asked should have his head examined. It's like walking into the lions den with a piece of meat tied to your neck. And in many cases the Judgement Angel would call the Inquisition... or at least a triad. You forget that Dominic needs evidence for his trial and there are standing orders to ask Eli himself when he is returning to Heaven. I think that every Judgement Angel would question the motives of a Creationer because of their Archangel's supposed heresy. It is more like Creationer - I need help in taking out a demonic tether Judgementer - Yes, I see. Could you please tell me why you are involved in these matters Creationer - Ummm, because I was following orders. Judgementer - The orders of a heretical, awol Archangel who has forsaken the bosom of Heaven to further his sins on Earth? Creationer - Are you going to help me or not? Judgementer - Yes I will help, but you will submit to a full investigation if any suspect material is found that implicates you in any practice that is contrary to Heavens purposes. Creationer - Whatever... where's the gasoline. Dominic won't help Creation... but his Angels probably would. Eli wouldn't ask Dom for advice or help because Dominic would just haul him before the council for trial. Dominic doesn't seek Creations help because in his eyes they can't help themselves let alone anyone else. He has MADE his judgement on Eli already, the evidence and trial just support it. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 09:07:42 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> I am being overruled... - --On Monday, September 4, 2000 11:18 AM -0400 Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Which in turn, naturally, leads to Gracelander -- "There can be only > one... *King,* Baby." *snortSPEW* Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("And the unholy image of Sean Connery in a sequined jumpsuit...") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 06:07:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Rain, rain, go away (why the heck are no Archangels Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 19:59:05 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Rain, rain, go away (why the heck are no Archangels for the Weather?) >I'm gonna agree with Rolland on making him something >other than an Ofanite. >A Cherub, if you don't want him to be a Malakite. I thought about it, but I liked the idea of an Ofanite that's been around so long that he's finally figured out the difference between haste and speed. A Malakite was right out: nothing against them, but not _every_ "unstoppable force of death" is one. Flavor to taste IYC, of course. :) >Other than that, there's really only one thing to say: >Me like Ogiel. Ogiel good. :^) >William >who knows Ogiel is past the whole Neanderthal thing, >but you just seem to slip into the habit around >him... ;^) Ain't it, though? >(P.S.: Isn't the weather pretty much Janus' job?) Yeah, sorta, except that none of his Servitors (except Elohim) have much to do with the weather, and even the Powers can't control it. Janus is falling off the job, here. Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 06:15:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> I am being overruled... Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:18:58 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> I am being overruled... At 9:57 AM -0500 9/4/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Maurice Lane wrote: >>> Just remember: he is everywhere, he is >>>everything, he is everybody, he is still the King. >>Interesting. I feel the need to say now that I >>wrote up a rather similar concept as one of the >>sample ethereals in the Ethereal Player's Guide. I >>say this only so no one thinks I was stealing >>Maurice's idea. >>(This assumes, of course, that the EPG ever sees the >>light of day....) It's so bloody obvious I'd be surprised if you _hadn't_ done so. But, seeing as I'm waiting for the EPG with baited breath myself, and I had the Pleasure Barons on the CD player, well... >Whereas I once wrote up the Elvii -- for reasons as >mysterous (some would whisper ineffable) as they are >ridiculous, an entire class of dreamshades and >ethereals rose IMC of *every* image and belief of >Elvis. Elvis the savior. Elvis the soldier. Fat >Elvis. Thin Elvis. >Karate Elvis. Leather Elvis. Girls Girls Girls >Elvis.... > >Which in turn, naturally, leads to Gracelander - -->"There can be only one... *King,* Baby." > >But then, I need a certain amount of help. You know, Eric, if you and certain others (like YOU, Twila) posted these insane ideas more, then you wouldn't be subjected to mine _quite_ as often... Give. Give. ;) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 09:17:53 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Rain, rain, go away (why the heck are no Archangels for the Weather?) - --On Monday, September 4, 2000 5:08 PM -0700 Casca wrote: > On Mon, 04 September 2000, Rolland Therrien wrote: > >> Big Stick. I get the feeling Ogiel might like meeting Cathexis, >> so he can talk softly to that Demon, and show him his Big Stick... > > I had the urge to reply to this with a truly horrid double > entendre, but I supressed it. > > Consider yourselves fortunate. ;) > Thank you for not going to the Dark Place. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation (Now wants a big stick of his own.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 13:40:40 GMT From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Eli & Dominic (was Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help) >From: "Alex Liddell" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help >Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:38:43 NZST >It's like walking into the lions den with a piece of meat tied to your >neck. And in many cases the Judgement Angel would call the Inquisition... >or at least a triad. You forget that Dominic needs evidence for his trial >and there are standing orders to ask Eli >himself when he is returning to >Heaven. >I think that every Judgement Angel would question the motives of a >Creationer because of their Archangel's supposed heresy. You're forgetting the truth-reading powers of Seraphs, especially Judgement Seraphs. They don't have to guess or suspect as to somebody's motives... they just *ask* him, and then they know. (Or if they blow their resonance, they just keep asking him over and over until they know.) And then they decide based on the individual circumstances and motivations of the case at hand, rather than blindly applying any hard-and-fast rule without regard to the merits of the situation. Anything less would not be just. "Everything's a situation." -- the Internal Affairs sergeant on "NYPD Blue", whose name I cannot recall at this time. He'd be a good role model for a servitor of Judgement. [snip] >Dominic won't help Creation... but his Angels probably would. Eli wouldn't >ask Dom for advice or help because Dominic would just haul him before the >council for trial. Dominic doesn't seek Creations help because in his eyes >they can't help themselves let alone anyone else. He has MADE his >judgement on Eli already, the evidence and trial just support it. This, I don't agree with. It is not just to pass sentence on someone, or even make a final decision on their innocence or guilt, without first holding their trial. And Eli hasn't been tried yet, not even in absentia. What Dominic *is* doing is acting like a cop with what he thinks is a really good case vs. a suspect... devoting major time and effort to running the guy to ground and dragging him in for trial. And holding, in the meanwhile, the preliminary opinion that he is *most likely* guilty. Obviously, if Dominic didn't at least *suspect* him of something, he wouldn't be an object of investigation in the first place. But while the fact that Eli has been Absent Without Leave from his duty station is obviously a verified fact (just go look, he's not there), it is not yet known for certain whether or not he had a mitigating circumstance for doing so... ergo, Dominic can't pass down Final Judgement on Eli's butt until *after* he hauls him in, sits him in the chair under the bright lights, and gets the Truth out of him as to just what *exactly* was on his mind at the time. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 10:14:59 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> I am being overruled... Moe, may I assume that the Elvii owe something to "It's Science! With Doctor Radium!"? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 10:35:42 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals in the Celestial Realm Tim Groth wrote: > Just got Superiors 3, like it so far, but I noticed something in > Gab's write up. It says that ethereal spies try to sneak up the > volcano into Heaven, isn't it canon that it isn't possible for > ethereals to enter Heaven or Hell? As I recall, Gabriel's volcano is "on the border" between Heaven and the Celestial Plane, whatever that means. Some Ethereals may think or know that it means they can exist in the territory of the volcano, if not elsewhere in heaven. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:26:56 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help At 10:38 PM -0400 9/5/00, Alex Liddell wrote: > >It is more like > >Creationer - I need help in taking out a demonic tether > >Judgementer - Yes, I see. Could you please tell me why you are >involved in these matters Of course, this is all extremely hypothetical -- in part because Judgement *isn't* the group who'd be called upon to take out a demonic tether, any more than a CIA agent in the field would call up the FBI to send in a B-1 strike against a military enemy. They'd call the Army, who in turn would call the Joint Chiefs, who'd call the President.... That Creationer would normally call Michael or Laurence's crew, in other words. Now, assuming that Judgement was the *only* group the Creationer could contact (say, they have the only Angelic tether in the area) they *would* likely ask the Standard Creationer Servitor Questions as detailed on form 101-C ("Have you seen Eli lately? What did he ask you to do? What have you done? Have you worked against Heaven?") However, the presumption that a Creationer Angel who is not otherwise dissonant, discordant or Outcast would have his request rejected out of hand and an investigation launched is slightly reactionary. Judgement is, in fact, *Judgement,* and it's not good Judgement to take an Angel's word and dismiss it without evidence. IOW, they'd likely contact their friends in the Sword, let them know what the Creationer said, drain him of information about the Demonic Tether, and follow the Swordie's orders in terms of eliminating the target (including using the Creationer as an assistant/informant/extra set of hands during the battle.) After the primary work has been attended to (at least in strategy,) they might *then* sit the Creationer down and grill him to learn how he got involved, etc. Unless your Campaign is highly satirical, of course. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:31:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Alex Liddell wrote: > Dominic won't help Creation... but his Angels probably would. Eli wouldn't > ask Dom for advice or help because Dominic would just haul him before the > council for trial. Dominic doesn't seek Creations help because in his eyes > they can't help themselves let alone anyone else. He has MADE his judgement > on Eli already, the evidence and trial just support it. I can't disagree with this more. Unless you're running a very dark or low contrast game, it goes completely against Dominic's nature to pre-judge without knowing all the facts! Sure, he's no Elohite, but he also knows that he can't know the Truth about Eli until Eli comes in. What he HAS is one side of the 'case'... the evidence that seems to show Eli forsaking his duty and abandoning Heaven. What he DOESN'T HAVE is the other side of the story...and you cannot judge without hearing the evidence on both sides. Again, if you're running a very dark or very low contrast game, I suppose Dominic could make "snap judgments" with just the evidence that happens to prove the person guilty available... but that sounds much more like The Game to me. TRUTHFUL STATEMENT: "On the 23 of October, John G. Huxtable took the life of Shawn Grayson. Shawn Grayson did not consent to being killed, and was not attempting to harm John Huxtable when it happened. In fact, the two had never met until the minute before John killed Shawn." Sounds like a good case? Let's hang 'em high. Never mind the fact that Shawn was a serial killer who was given a fair trial, and John was simply the one who had the job of pulling the switch on the electric chair, many years later. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "I am the greatest man in the world; indeed I am SO great that I can afford great generosity: I encourage all others to adopt the DELUSION that they are as great as I. If they truly thought that they were themselves the greatest, they too would be as generous; and then we would all be able to HUMOR each other, in peace, for none would feel threatened by the now-harmless delusions of everyone else." -- Philo Drummond ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 17:09:03 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: IN> Funny link On the "Rain, rain, go away" thread, William wrote: > >(P.S.: Isn't the weather pretty much Janus' job?) Thank God, no. Just imagine, there would be storms every single day!! Anyway, somebody just forwarded me this link: http://home.earthlink.net/~hainbros/jesusdressup.html You've got to try it! Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:37:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fwd: The Shattered Ones: Prelude Notes >From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 15:58:42 -0500 >To: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [Whistling in the Dark ] >Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 16:58:40 -0400 >From: Whistling in the Dark >Subject: The Shattered Ones: Prelude Notes > >This is the Prelude to a Campaign book that's been kicking in my >brain the last few weeks. About once a week, I'll add pertinant >information and statistics to the list, and people can hopefully get >a few things out of it. Over the next day or two, I'll post >statistics for Balin, Angel of Chivalry (and maybe for little Anixiel >too -- I kind of like him) and the like. > >Hope people enjoy the ride. In the meantime, here's a fast little bonus: > >SONG OF ALARM > >This is a Celestial-only Song, only capable of being Sung in the >Celestial Realm. Much like the Song of Thunder, it creates a >disproportionally powerful disturbance in the area it is sung. This >disturbance sounds more like the reverberations of a gong, and only >persists for CD rounds. The Song creates Disturbance equal to the >check digit times the Essence spent (minimum of 1 point). If the >Campaign uses Sticky Disturbance, the Disturbance clings to the point >of the singing, not the singer. > >Note that unlike the Celestial Song of Cacophany, this Song doesn't >mask other Songs or Disturbance. > >The Song of Alarm is generally used in the Cathedrals or Domains of >Superiors. Generally, one or more guards around where Hearts are >stored or at the Celestial endpoints of Tethers will have it, that >they can swiftly call for aid from their fellows. Often, a Superior >will use Relievers (if Angelic) or Demonlings (if Infernal) in this >role, stripping them of the Song after they Fledge and get other >duties. > >Essence Requirment: 1 (minimum) > >Degree of Disturbance: Special >-- > >Eric Alfred Burns - - > Systems type - Manager by day - Writer - Online Journaller > ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 2000 09:24:15 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: Eli & Dominic (was Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help) On Tue, 05 September 2000, "Charles Glasgow" wrote: > This, I don't agree with. It is not just to pass sentence on someone, or > even make a final decision on their innocence or guilt, without first > holding their trial. And Eli hasn't been tried yet, not even in absentia. I'd like to weigh in on this, as a GM who's run the "Eli brought in to trial" campaign. You're making what I feel is a fundamental, though understandable, error: you're assuming that Judgement works like the American legal system. It doesn't. Angels don't need to stand trial. Why? Because their guilt can be easily determined by a Seraph, Elohite, and Malakite of Judgement. "Did you do it?" the Seraph asks, all three Resonate, and the issue of guilt is resolved then and there. The purpose of Eli's trial, therefore, is not to determine guilt. He's already guilty of Conduct Unbecoming an Archangel by deserting his post and leaving many of his servitors twisting in the wind. The purpose is to discover the reasons -why- he did this, and therefore determine what mitigating factors are involved before Judgement is rendered. For example, let us assume Eli returns to Heaven (by whatever means), and Dominic is able to ask him the question, "Why did you act this way?" 1) If Eli answers "Because God told me to," then Dominic will drop the charges right then and there. 2) If Eli says, "Because I had good reason to," and then lists those reasons, they will be taken into account, compared with his actions and what he was able to accomplish on Earth during his walkabout. If it's proven that he acted in the best interests of Heaven, he'll probably get only a slap on the wrists and sharp admonition to "Tell us next time." 3) If he says, "Because I felt like it," that's insubordination. Why? Because God created the station of Archangel for a -reason-, and those elevated to that position have a responsibility to God to fill it to the best of their ability. To decide "Nah, I don't wanna" is practically a rebellion against God's order, and therefore against God. 4) If he says, "I don't know. Just felt like the right thing to do," then Eli can expect to have his head examined by top Elohim for the next thousand years, as this is the equivilent of an insanity defense. At any rate, I just thought I'd toss these out. I think the Inquisition is fare more interesting if you can divest it of human trappings. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:28:45 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> I am being overruled... From: "Marc Bowden" > > --On Monday, September 4, 2000 11:18 AM -0400 Whistling in the Dark > wrote: > > > Which in turn, naturally, leads to Gracelander -- "There can be only > > one... *King,* Baby." > > ("And the unholy image of Sean Connery in a sequined jumpsuit...") No, Sean would be Colonel Tom Parker... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:31:59 -0700 From: Rolland Therrien Subject: Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help - -----Original Message----- From: Rev. Pee Kitty To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 8:52 AM Subject: Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help > > >On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Alex Liddell wrote: > >> Dominic won't help Creation... but his Angels probably would. Eli wouldn't >> ask Dom for advice or help because Dominic would just haul him before the >> council for trial. Dominic doesn't seek Creations help because in his eyes >> they can't help themselves let alone anyone else. He has MADE his judgement >> on Eli already, the evidence and trial just support it. > >I can't disagree with this more. Unless you're running a very dark or low >contrast game, it goes completely against Dominic's nature to pre-judge >without knowing all the facts! Sure, he's no Elohite, but he also knows >that he can't know the Truth about Eli until Eli comes in. What he HAS is >one side of the 'case'... the evidence that seems to show Eli forsaking >his duty and abandoning Heaven. What he DOESN'T HAVE is the other side of >the story...and you cannot judge without hearing the evidence on both >sides. I have to agree with this; Dominic is only Investigating Eli's disappearance, not hunting him down to execute him. He mostly wants to sit him down and get him to explain why he abandonned Heaven. Mind you, the fact that Eli doesn't seem to want to sit down with Dominic and explain himself looks like pretty damning evidence itself: If he's innocent, why is he running away? Eli's refusal to sit down and explain himself may be irritating to Dominic, but he's too professional to allow this to influence his job: Judgement MUST always be Impartial. >Again, if you're running a very dark or very low contrast game, I suppose >Dominic could make "snap judgments" with just the evidence that happens to >prove the person guilty available... but that sounds much more like The >Game to me. Agreed: Dominic isn't Heaven's inquisitor, he's Heaven's head of Internal Affairs: his duty is to make sure no one is allowed to run with dissonances or discords unchecked in Heaven. He won't cast you out of Heaven for every little flaw, but if he says you've got to shape up, you better, cause he knows it's true. No matter the case, no matter his personal feelings, Dominic's duty is to remain impartial and try on the hard evidence. If the evidence on Eli proves him innocent, the Dominc will only chide Eli for not trusting Judgement to treat him fairly. If the evidence proves Eli's guilty, then Dominic's actions will be vindicated. As for a Creationnist asking Judgement helping to remove a Tether of the Game in the Supreme Court, I think that actually makes a very sensible request: Any court of law is part of Judgement's court, and the Supreme Court is one of the most influential courts out there, as far as justice and the law are concerned. Judgement letting the Game keep a Tether where it can damage the War, just to run after Eli, wouldn't make for good Judgement. The right decision to make here is 1: Collect the information about this new infernal tether, 2: get some Swords to help remove it, and 3: keep tabs on that Creationnist so you can ask him about Eli when the above is done. Anything less would be bad Judgement. - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:43:05 -0500 From: "Eeyore" Subject: Re: Eli & Dominic (was Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help) - -----Original Message----- From: Casca To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 11:29 AM Subject: Re: Eli & Dominic (was Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help) >You're making what I feel is a fundamental, though understandable, error: you're assuming that Judgement works like the American legal system. It doesn't. > >Angels don't need to stand trial. Why? Because their guilt can be easily determined by a Seraph, Elohite, and Malakite of Judgement. "Did you do it?" the Seraph asks, all three Resonate, and the issue of guilt is resolved then and there. While I agree with the statement that Judgement doesn't work like a human justice system, I'd point out that this approach will *not* work in the case of Eli. The Seraph resonance, even that of Dominic, can not penetrate the actions of a Superior. Dominic won't know the Truth in this case. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:47:18 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Eli & Dominic (was Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help) Eeyore wrote: > While I agree with the statement that Judgement doesn't work like > a human justice system, I'd point out that this approach will > *not* work in the case of Eli. The Seraph resonance, even that > of Dominic, can not penetrate the actions of a Superior. > Dominic won't know the Truth in this case. Can a Superior open itself up, though? If Eli were of a mind to, could he show up in front of Dominic, say "Here's why," and drop his shields so Dominic would know he was truthful? Or would Dominic always have to wonder if Eli was faking it? Or is the whole issue Canonical Doubtful? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 13:02:38 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: Eli & Dominic (was Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help) At 12:47 PM -0500 9/5/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Eeyore wrote: > >> While I agree with the statement that Judgement doesn't work like >> a human justice system, I'd point out that this approach will >> *not* work in the case of Eli. The Seraph resonance, even that >> of Dominic, can not penetrate the actions of a Superior. > > Dominic won't know the Truth in this case. The other side is "intepretation." If an Archangel declares that this is his method of serving Heaven and fighting the War, who is Dominic to say it isn't. (The answer, of course, is "Judgement," but not all Judgements are absolute despite his need for them to be so.) Therefore, he is likely to render Judgement after trial, perhaps presuming guilt, and counting upon God to exonerate Eli as He did Michael if it becomes necessary. In fact, I think it says that in Superiors 1. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:03:01 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Malakanaries. At 11:22 AM -0700 9/1/00, Marcus Evenstar wrote: >> [The following is hardly canon, may in fact be twistedly munchkin, and >>is in all likelihood somewhat silly.] > > > >Twisted canon or not, K.K. finally has a set of interchangeable >boyfriends! Yeah, but it's always a contest with them over who kills who first! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:03:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Contest Posted. At 6:41 PM -0700 8/31/00, Michael Walton wrote: >Mastinim "The Accusers" Hee hee hee. Very Asmodean. Only one point you may or may not care about: > Mastinim see themselves not as musical instruments but as >conductors who decide which instruments are heard and at what time. This duplicates the mainbook "musical instrument identity" of Lilim... (Which probably doesn't matter, since it's not like these are submissions to me, but just in case you care about making the writeup as "official-esque" as possible... O:> ) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:03:21 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Cathexis (Warning: High squick factor) At 10:38 AM -0400 9/1/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: [...] >Lilith would hate being raped herself, unless she could use that rape to get >a decent Geas. "By my blood within thee, by thy seed within me -- now thou art MINE." >And Cathexis would have such intense Needs, I could >see Lilith cheerfully finding people who needed a victim raped, then >connecting Cathexis to him -- especially if he works directly for >Lucifer, since she wants to stay on his good side. Oooo, double-hooks. Win-win-win situation, as Lilim put it. Mind, my view on her is that, activities aside, he's probably just plain icky enough that she wouldn't want to _associate_ with him. I mean, Lilim don't hunt down Shedim -- they just think the Corruptors are disgusting, nasty, drippy, icky things that make their lives a little harder. (After all, what Tempter wants to be trying to recruit a servant to Hell to suddenly have the mortal idiot yelp about vile ugly demons? I mean, bad enough to come across a Shedite unexpectedly while Need-reading -- but to be _mistaken_ for one? Ew. How insulting.) Now, if Cathexis happened to make a habit of using _Lilim_ for his toys, Lilith might get involved. She's "been known to get involved [...]" in those circumstances. [Main book.] Of course, as she herself well knows, being under the Morning Star's wing is powerful protection -- who'd rank higher in his estimation? Fnord. >And unless Genubeth was on Novalis's Beyond the Pale list, I'm not >sure Cathexis would be. I'm trying to remember my IPG here... Genubath was set up as a counter to Novalis, I think, so he might well have been! (If BtP were canon.) >I guess maybe my demons tend to be a lot more... well, evil than others. >(Not, I add, that I would ever ever ever want to have that loathsome >thing exist. I may well use him in my game, he's so utterly >abhorrent. Well done.) That thing shows up, I'm calling Michael. Unless I'm five buildings away with a sniper scope, or maybe a missile launcher. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:04:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Squicking David? (Re: Cathexis) At 3:43 PM +0000 9/1/00, Jo Hart wrote: >So who can create a demonic NPC nasty enough to squick out David? The clock >is ticking ... A Shedite who possesses authors and makes them write something painful enough (for the author's value of painful) to qualify as "corruption." A misplaced comma here, a missing period there, a spell-checker that fails to catch "their" for "there"... Or maybe one that did all that _and_ forced the host to write bad Gor fanfic. And post it to the net. Using the author's real name. In his neighborhood. I'd do the stats, but really -- it's the concept, not the stats. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:04:48 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals in the Celestial Realm At 2:42 PM -0600 9/2/00, Tim Groth wrote: >Just got Superiors 3, like it so far, but I noticed something in Gab's >write up. It says that ethereal spies try to sneak up the volcano into >Heaven, isn't it canon that it isn't possible for ethereals to enter Heaven >or Hell? Ethereals don't necessarily know canon. Remember that a lot of them claim (and presumably at least _some_ believe!) that God is just a hopped-up ethereal as well. Therefore, if the spies believe this, they either believe they can get into the Domain of God via a back door that God hasn't warded against, or they have some other trick up their sleeve. Note that the writeup doesn't say they _get_ there. Just that they _try._ - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:04:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help At 2:07 PM -0400 9/4/00, Charles phipps wrote: >What exactly is the limits that favors can be requested across party lines >and what is the ammount of help they're willing to give? It depends on the Servitors and Words involved. Check pp. 108-109 under the Relations header. - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:03:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN>A Vignette At 11:21 AM +0000 8/31/00, Charles E Smith wrote: >I'd go into more detail about that, but suffice it to say that > people trying to show Love to a Princess of Hell are, >well... Only _slightly_ better off than the fools who try to show Andre >what he turned his back on.<<< > >You're probably right, but what a great resume piece it would make if the >Seraph survived and was going for the Word of Love or Forgiveness. > >Eloria, standing before the Seraphim Council: "The most convincing proof >I can bring before this Council as to why I should be granted the vacant >Word of Love is that I have demonstrated the Love of Heaven to the Demon >Princess Lilith." [...] Alas, unless the Princess herself showed up to testify that, having been shown the Love of Heaven, she was now re-thinking her previous stance of hostility (or otherwise demonstrating that she was affected other than having played with a silly little Seraph (again)), I think the general reaction would be a mass, sigh, some head-thumping, and a comment of "At least you don't seem to be missing Forces, dissonant, laden with fifty jillion Geases (as if we could see the Geas-hooks from _her_ but usually she ignores those), or more than just NAIVE, you can report to Chamber 57B for your brainscrubbing and debriefing now. Afterwards, report to Chamber 57A and read the records of the most recent 10 angels who found themselves in the Princess'm clutches. You, Eloria, were LUCKY." Now, if she could show up with a repentant Princess in tow -- THEN the Council goes and there is a scramble to promote a new AA of Love. O:> Otherwise, really, it's more a case of, "So you slept with her or something. So? What did _she_ think about this? And how badly did you _NEED_ to do it?" - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:10:19 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Eli & Dominic (was Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help) At 12:47 PM -0500 9/5/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Eeyore wrote: > >> While I agree with the statement that Judgement doesn't work like >> a human justice system, I'd point out that this approach will >> *not* work in the case of Eli. The Seraph resonance, even that >> of Dominic, can not penetrate the actions of a Superior. >> Dominic won't know the Truth in this case. > >Can a Superior open itself up, though? I believe that it's in the GMG that yes, they can -- indeed, that shielding constantly may in fact be draining. It is also up to the GM to determine if it works (and how well, if so) in Superior vs Suprior interactions. Also see the Seraph Archangels and the TRUTH box on p. 41. - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 19:04:53 GMT From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: Eli & Dominic (was Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help) >From: Casca >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: Eli & Dominic (was Re: IN> Cross Archangel Help) >Date: 5 Sep 2000 09:24:15 -0700 > >On Tue, 05 September 2000, "Charles Glasgow" wrote: > > This, I don't agree with. It is not just to pass sentence on > someone, >or even make a final decision on their innocence or guilt, > without first >holding their trial. And Eli hasn't been tried yet, > not even in >absentia. >I'd like to weigh in on this, as a GM who's run the "Eli brought in to >trial" campaign. >You're making what I feel is a fundamental, though understandable, error: >you're assuming that Judgement works like the American legal system. No, I am not. I said that Judgement will not pass sentence on anyone until after their trial. I did *not* say that that trial would be held in exactly, or even mostly, the same format as the American legal system. >It doesn't. > >Angels don't need to stand trial. Why? Because their guilt can be easily >determined by a Seraph, Elohite, and Malakite of Judgement. "Did you do >it?" the Seraph asks, all three Resonate, and the issue of guilt is >resolved then and there. Errr... what you just described *is* the trial. >The purpose of Eli's trial, therefore, is not to determine guilt. He's >already guilty of Conduct Unbecoming an Archangel by deserting his post and >leaving many of his servitors twisting in the wind. Didn't I just say that in my prior post? >The purpose is to discover the reasons -why- he did this, and therefore >determine what mitigating factors are involved before Judgement is >rendered. Didn't I just say *this* in my prior post? >For example, let us assume Eli returns to Heaven (by whatever means), and >Dominic is able to ask him the question, "Why did you act this way?" And this as well? >1) If Eli answers "Because God told me to," then Dominic will drop the >charges right then and there. >2) If Eli says, "Because I had good reason to," and then lists those >reasons, they will be taken into account, compared with his actions and >what he was able to accomplish on Earth during his walkabout. If it's >proven that he acted in the best interests of Heaven, he'll probably get >only a slap on the wrists and sharp admonition to "Tell us next time." >3) If he says, "Because I felt like it," that's insubordination. Why? >Because God created the station of Archangel for a -reason-, and those >elevated to that position have a responsibility to God to fill it to the >best of their ability. To decide "Nah, I don't wanna" is practically a >rebellion against God's order, and therefore against God. >4) If he says, "I don't know. Just felt like the right thing to do," then >Eli can expect to have his head examined by top Elohim for the next >thousand years, as this is the equivilent of an insanity defense. And all of the possible outcomes that you have just described will have occurred during a proceeding known as "The Trial Of Eli". >At any rate, I just thought I'd toss these out. I think the Inquisition is >fare more interesting if you can divest it of human trappings. The *one* 'trapping' that I recall saying recently that Justice should be saddled with is the one about 'Don't hang the angel until after his fair trial.' I do *not* recall saying that said trial would occur according to the American legal system, even if I did make an analogy about how Dominic was acting like a responsible cop in not passing sentence while the suspect was still only a suspect, as opposed to having finished the conviction process. AAMOF, I specifically recall saying that the trial would compose of a Seraph of Judgement sitting the accused town and just plain asking him what was on his mind. And so I get a reply that leads off with disagreement, and then tells me that -- the trial would compose of a Seraph of Judgement sitting the accused down and just plain asking him what was on his mind. As if I *hadn't* just said that already. Folks, are my skills in written English really *that* poor, that my posts can be this massively misunderstood? *Chuckg groans and holds his head in his hands* _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1806 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.