From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Sep 9 13:58:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04098 for ; Sat, 9 Sep 2000 13:58:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA07151 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 9 Sep 2000 13:56:58 -0500 Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 13:56:58 -0500 Message-Id: <200009091856.NAA07151@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1813 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, September 9 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1813 In this digest: Re: IN> Amusing question IN> Eli's muses IN> Altruism IN> Urim of Balance IN> Demon of Chastity Re: IN> Urim of Balance Re: IN> Demon of Chastity IN> Stripping Word-Forces (Re: Contest) Re: IN> Urim of Balance Re: IN> Demon of Chastity Re: IN> Stripping Word-Forces (Re: Contest) Re: IN> Urim of Balance Re: IN> Stripping Word-Forces (Re: Contest) Re: IN> Stripping Word-Forces (Re: Contest) IN> "I've never killed anyone this way before. It's kind of neat."* Re: IN> Stripping Word-Forces (Re: Contest) Re: IN> "I've never killed anyone this way before. It's kind of neat."* IN> "So you've been messing with my buddies, have you?" Re: IN> Demon of Chastity Re: IN> Stripping Word-Forces (Re: Contest) Concepts and Mechanics of Word Forces (Re: IN> Stripping Word-Forces) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Sep 2000 20:24:06 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Amusing question On Fri, 08 September 2000, David Edelstein wrote: > I would think he'd want very broad Words for his Muses, representing > fields of artistic endeavor; you seem to be limiting them to particular > media, which is a classification system I'd expect from Nybbas (or Jean) > more than Eli. This is deliberate, because in my eschatalogical campaign Nybbas is the Anti-Eli, which I have blathered on about at great length before. So in order to fully understand his enemy, and thus fully oppose him, Eli is going to learn as much about Nybbas' terrain and tactics as possible. What better way than to create Wordbound, then query them about their Words? Theoretically, being wordbound would provide them a knowledge of that Word greater than any Superior's. And once Eli's education is complete, he's going to let them out into the world with the command of "Go and oppose my enemy. Turn his Word against him. Use the Media to further Creation and Heaven," or something to that effect. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 01:43:43 -0400 From: "Charles phipps" Subject: IN> Eli's muses >In my campaign, Eli has decided to create modern-day Muses, in order to better understand Nybbas and >then fight him on his own ground. There will be 7 of them, one of each choir, each with a Word related to the >little-m media or entertainment. I would say Modern Muses would be.... 1. Movies-Serendipity from Dogma but much television 2. Video- Recorded perfromance 3. Live Perfomance-The old ways still work 4. Radio- Nuff said 5. Printed Word- Magazines, newspapers, pamplets 6. Internet- Creativity with the net not Orc's all round net 7. Transmissions: Phones to Satelite Feed - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 01:56:29 -0400 From: "Charles phipps" Subject: IN> Altruism Interesting character, I like the Angel of Altruism studies. Shows Jeans not asleep at the Sociology wheel. My take on a Demon for Altruism is based on the Fountainhead Not sure what his stats would be... However Ezikiel Impudite Servitor of the Game Baron of Justice The Demon of Altruism A former servitor of Eli who came to view humanity's selfish pandering to it's own ego disgusting. The good were not the rich who helped out of a desire to appear good and the good were not the poor who helped in order to feel more righteous than the rich. He eventually Fell the Mercurian out of learning that humanity was just disgusting all ways around and if he was going to have to endure an eternity with them, he might as well get something out of it. To this end Ezikiel pursues something that many demons find truly odd, a truly altruistic society where everyone is defineratial and considerate of everyone else but themselves first. Orginally Asmodeus when he heard of the man's pursuit in Kronos's service investigated but upon reviewing the man's pursuit was so amused promptly requested the man's service. Ezikiel has served faithfully ever since. Basically Ezikiel knows that Altruism can be the enemy of intellect, strength of character, and moral judgement more so than any display of overt strength or beliefs. Surrendering one's possesions, free will, and judgement to everyone else simply tosses it up in the air and makes one far more likely to end up a mindless servant of whoever talks to them. Creativity cannot exist without someone imposing their vision on the world so why not encourage mankind to make no mark whatsoever? He has a big dream he does that eventually demons will follow suit and become generous patrons of humanity who has about the will of a yak and while they're chewing the grass content in their knowledge that because they're giving and want for nothing they'll live forever. Meanwhile Eli will perish from a lack of word forces and Ezkiel will be flying high. He knows it's a pipe dream and that the chances are one in a billion but imposing one's will on the Symphony is better than the Hell humanity's selfless pointlessness is. You'll find him generally acting like an angel encourage everyone he meets to want for nothing and generally sound like a perversion of Buddah....especially because he lays on the guilt so well. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 01:21:26 -0700 From: "Glenn Brown" Subject: IN> Urim of Balance I like the Urim enough to be sorry they aren't canon. They remind me of a quote about the family of clones in Lois McMaster Bujold's novel, "Mirror, Mirror". "Jackson's Whole is no place to be alone. You can't trust anyone here." Is the fanfiction you mentioned about Urichislon on line? I'd like to read it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:00:01 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Demon of Chastity Another (Too-)Early Morning Special... (I'm not following the guidelines because I'm dealing with a baby who wants to go to sleep, REALLY, but is currently squirming all over my lap.) Cairdonal Balseraph of Lust Demon of Chastity Corporeal Forces: 3 Strength 6 Agility 6 Ethereal Forces: 2 Intelligence 3 Precision 5 Celestial Forces: 3 Will 8 Perception 4 Word Forces: 2 (It's a big Word, but he's not had it long, and is, frankly, having trouble syncronizing himself to it) Vessel/1, human male; Charisma +1 (Sexy Hunk) Role/3: "Don," male stripper. Status/2. Notable Skills: Emote/3, Seduction/3 Notable Songs: Numinous Corpus (Ornamental/6), Attraction (Ethereal/4) Cairdonal is a Balseraph. Of Andrealphus, as it happens. He's also the Demon of Chastity. This presents a bit of a problem, especially since Andrealphus doesn't know. Which is something the little 8-Force Liar is very, very grateful for. Poor Cairdonal isn't even sure how he got the Word, frankly. Maybe he shouldn't have bought that CD-ROM, full of Internet addresses, from that Nybassian who kept snickering. Or maybe he shouldn't have spammed the 'Net with his REDHOTSEXXXGRRLS ad, using that CD-ROM. Anyway, he woke up out of some kind of stupor one day, and found he was the Demon of Chastity. Since he'd enjoyed playing with the little monkeys before, the change of attitude was a bit disturbing, even for a Balseraph. But, as Balseraphs do and demons must, Cairdonal is making the best of this... mixed blessing. It's not easy to promote both Chastity and Lust at the same time, but he's _trying_. His current tactic (he's tried a few others, and will likely keep experimenting till he finds one that he likes best) is to make sex seem _soooo_ dirty that no one will want to do it. But they'll keep _thinking_ about it. In the past, this has involved using his Numinous Corpus during "Ladies Night" at the strip club where he works, to make himself... more impressive. Impressive enough to make the foolish wenches dissatisfied with anything _mortal_, sure that they couldn't handle the real thing (him), and doomed to a life of frustration and lonely nights because of it. This may or may not have worked. Cairdonal isn't sure. The power of his Word hasn't gone up because of it, much. These days, he's been hiring out to parties. Private ones, of course. When one of his co-workers is with him -- one that he's been able to ensnare in his fairly decent Will -- he's been doing his best to twist the performance to something... a bit obscene and hot'n'heavy. Make the little monkeys think that to be good, sex has to involve props, pain, and as much filth as he can sell to the audience. Personal encounters are getting more extreme too -- if he can wire the subject to enjoy what most repells them, then maybe the subject will avoid sex in the future. While, naturally, shamefully remembering how _pleasurable_ it was. So far, he's managed to balance the requirements of his Prince with the Needs of his Word, but one day, this little Balseraph is probably going to realize the inherant contradictions. If any angels find out about him, they'd probably be _happy_ to point those contradictions out. (It is, after all, a persistant rumor among angels that if you can give a Balseraph enough dissonance, they explode. It's also a persistant rumor that if you make a Lustie abstain long enough, _they_ explode. Clearly it's a rumor that needs testing.) - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:16:28 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Urim of Balance At 1:21 AM -0700 9/9/00, Glenn Brown wrote: >I like the Urim enough to be sorry they aren't canon. Feel free to use them in your own campaigns! (You might want to make Uri an Archangel, though, in a game closer to canon -- Lilith doesn't like competition in Hell... Though if Urichislon still _owed_ her, then all Urim would owe her, and maybe infiltrating one of her Daughters throughout Hell would be interesting enough that she'd let it happen peacably. Maybe -- that's a GM decision and a half.) >They remind me of a quote about the family of clones in Lois McMaster >Bujold's novel, "Mirror, Mirror". [_Mirror Dance_, actually... O;> ] Oh, right -- Lilly and Rowan and that lot. Yes, one could probably see the parallels... >Is the fanfiction you mentioned about Urichislon on line? I'd like to read >it. Alas, it's not for general consumption -- among other reasons, I'm holding it close in case Someone gets the IN fiction rights. (Send me enough money, and I might try to talk to the Croc/Siroz folk myself... O;> ) - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:08:54 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Chastity At 9:00 AM -0400 9/9/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >Another (Too-)Early Morning Special... Very fun. Very very fun. On the other hand, I wouldn't assign the (demonic) Word of Chastity to anyone *but* a Lustie, were I Lucifer. After all, the push to make sex forbidden gives Andrealphus a lot of his lurid appeal, and given that Chastity is the denial of base lusts and repression of the libido, its promotion *does* strengthen the ol' Word for Andre. Now, an 8-Force Demon trying to *conceal* it from Andrealphus, while not exploding from frustration... *there's* your comedy. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:29:22 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Stripping Word-Forces (Re: Contest) At 9:49 PM -0500 9/8/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> >Which reminds me of a canon question, can a Superior strip Word forces from >> >a Servitor? >> Though I've got a nasty headache at the moment, I don't see why not. They >> can, IIRC, be lost in celestial combat, after all, no? > > >Only if the Word-holder _chooses_ to sacrifice them in lieu of normal >Forces. > >Giving a Superior the ability to strip Word-Forces will have Bad >Consequences. True -- wasn't thinking of letting them strip it down _entirely_. _That_ should be forbidden, definitely. No Word-stripping by a single Superior. Perhaps it would be more likely to say something along the lines of, "A Servitor being Force-stripped of _other_ Forces might choose to sacrifice Word-Forces instead..." Not, of course, that a Prince would _stop_ there. (And might be able to force the sacrifice via the "do this or die" model.) I can't see any reason to forbid _that_ model, though, since doing so simply gives us the case of a Prince flicking off Forces randomly in celestial "combat" and telling the Servitor he'd better be sacrificing Word Forces here or he's gonna be a toasted remnant soon. Allowing a celestial being Force-stripped to sacrifice them _that_ way just cuts out the randomity "middleman" that adhering to the mechanics of "lose in celestial combat [only], if you choose" would inflict. Of course, it _is_ still the celestials decision whether they want to allow it, which could mean that they cling to it even as a 1-Force celestial fragment... Oooo, neat idea. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:14:46 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Urim of Balance At 9:16 AM -0400 9/9/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 1:21 AM -0700 9/9/00, Glenn Brown wrote: >>I like the Urim enough to be sorry they aren't canon. > >Feel free to use them in your own campaigns! (You might want to make >Uri an Archangel, though, in a game closer to canon -- Lilith doesn't >like competition in Hell... Though if Urichislon still _owed_ her, then >all Urim would owe her, and maybe infiltrating one of her Daughters >throughout Hell would be interesting enough that she'd let it happen >peacably. Maybe -- that's a GM decision and a half.) In a perfectly standard Campaign, Uri could be raised to Princess while still Owing Lilith, as you say, and the pair discover that the Urim only get budded off with Lilith's help. So for a Geas/1, Lilith promotes the budding, and those Geases can be spread throughout the fleet, as it were. IOW, the more Urim there are, the more they will Owe Grandmother, and they're kind of amazingly good at coordinating these little moments. This gives us the Urim, *and* lets us have a Lilith who's supportive of them. (Though I imagine Lilith will be *very* careful not to tell anyone the secret of the Urim, which leads people to wondering why Lilith treats Urim like any other Lilim, but refuses to ever have more than one around her, and that one is treated like an Ambassador rather than a temp....) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:41:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Chastity At 9:08 AM -0400 9/9/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >At 9:00 AM -0400 9/9/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>Another (Too-)Early Morning Special... > >Very fun. Very very fun. O:> >On the other hand, I wouldn't assign the (demonic) Word of Chastity >to anyone *but* a Lustie, were I Lucifer. After all, the push to make >sex forbidden gives Andrealphus a lot of his lurid appeal, and given >that Chastity is the denial of base lusts and repression of the >libido, its promotion *does* strengthen the ol' Word for Andre. Though only if that denial and repression is _imperfectly_ successful. (And there are wider interpretations of "chastity" -- a married person can be "chaste" by being faithful, IIRC.) If a demon of Lust is _too_ successful at making sex seem unattractive... Well, Andrealphus might get an eensy bit _annoyed_, y'know? (And when Andrealphus is not happy, _any_ Servitor within range is not happy...) >Now, an 8-Force Demon trying to *conceal* it from Andrealphus, while >not exploding from frustration... *there's* your comedy. Kobal would like it, probably. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 08:38:09 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Stripping Word-Forces (Re: Contest) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Perhaps it would be more likely to say something along the lines of, > "A Servitor being Force-stripped of _other_ Forces might choose to > sacrifice Word-Forces instead..." Not, of course, that a Prince > would _stop_ there. (And might be able to force the sacrifice via > the "do this or die" model.) That's already possible canonically. > I can't see any reason to forbid _that_ model, though, since doing so > simply gives us the case of a Prince flicking off Forces randomly in > celestial "combat" and telling the Servitor he'd better be sacrificing > Word Forces here or he's gonna be a toasted remnant soon. And some Word-bound celestials might be so attached to their Words that they'd choose that fate. I just want to make sure you're not giving Superiors the power to affect Word-Forces _directly_. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:52:28 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Urim of Balance At 9:14 AM -0400 9/9/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: [...] >In a perfectly standard Campaign, Uri could be raised to Princess >while still Owing Lilith, as you say, and the pair discover that the >Urim only get budded off with Lilith's help. So for a Geas/1, Lilith >promotes the budding, and those Geases can be spread throughout the >fleet, as it were. Presumably not _actually_ combinable into a Geas/mongo on Uri-prime? Which is easy enough to justify -- the Urim are self-sentient. (They don't go torpid if they happen to fall into Limbo; they just get... cut off. (Which, undoubtedly, they HATE.)) So a Geas on one can't be combined with a Geas on another. Directly, as you point out in... >they're kind of amazingly good at coordinating these little moments. So that works fine with me. >This gives us the Urim, *and* lets us have a Lilith who's supportive >of them. Cleeeeever, yup. If anyone uses Urim in a campaign, tell me how it worked out? (I like to see how the little ones do out of the nest...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:55:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Stripping Word-Forces (Re: Contest) At 8:38 AM -0500 9/9/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >I just want to make sure you're not giving Superiors the power to affect >Word-Forces _directly_. Nah -- as you say, letting them take a Word would be bad. And it's more fun to give the option of someone having the 1-Force Demon of Whatever around, with all 19 of its Word-Forces intact. That's why I qualified the off-the-cuff with the mention of the headache. It probably wasn't migrane-level, but man, it was BAD. (Then again, I might be the only person in the world to have migranes that didn't have visual effects, for all I know. I had pre-eclampsia nearly bad enough to have seizures, and didn't get any of the normal visual effects. O:p ) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:45:14 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Stripping Word-Forces (Re: Contest) At 9:55 AM -0400 9/9/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 8:38 AM -0500 9/9/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Then again, I might be the only person in the world to have migranes >that didn't have visual effects, for all I know. Oh man, the visual effects make or break the migraine experience. Along with that "white hot spike" feeling and the certainty that your skull has softened when you feel it, and the embracing of the darkness as your only friend.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 07:02:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> "I've never killed anyone this way before. It's kind of neat."* OK, this is not my "take on most horrifying demon in the world" (still in progress, but somebody's already tossed in a submission close to mine in spirit. Alas): this is just a demon. He started out as nasty, but apparently I just can't write nasty below Superior level. I actually feel a small amount of sorrow for the poor bastard. It's incredibly frustrating, let me tell you: just ONCE I'd like to come up with somebody below Superior level that I can't emphasize with at all... :) Moegiel (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny in Service to Trade ("You lie and take land away from woman after her man put in cold, cold ground. Hulk Smash.") *Extra points to anyone who can identify the quote in the title. :) Gaius Impudite Knight of the Black Order Demon of Gladiators Corporeal Forces: 5 Strength: 10 Agility: 10 Ethereal Forces: 3 Intelligence: 6 Precision: 6 Celestial Forces: 4 Will: 8 Perception: 8 Word Forces: 3 Vessel: human male/3 Skills: Dodge/3, Emote/1, Fighting/2, Large Weapon (long sword/4, Battle-Axe/2), Language/3 (Latin), Small Weapon (club/2, dagger/2, hatchet/2), Savoir-Faire/1, Seduction/1, Tactics/3, Throwing/2 Songs: Essence (All/3), Healing (Corporeal/3), Might (Corporeal/3), Shields (Corporeal/3, Celestial/2) Attunements: Impudite of the War, Balseraph of the War, Art of Combat, Knight of the Black Order, Demon of Gladiators Demon of Gladiators: once upon a time, Gaius could draw Essence directly from a watching crowd to power his abilities and Songs. These days, he's lucky to get a point of Essence by encouraging someone to read or watch something about gladiators: the more romanticized, the better. You never know how good you had it, until you don't have it anymore. Gaius got his start during the end of the Roman Republic, and loved it all: the crowds, the fighting, the blood. For three centuries, he lived the life of a successful gladiator. Actually, he lived the lives of several successful gladiators. He can still remember the heady feeling of Charming an entire crowd and literally bathing in their Essence as he messily dispatched some human. And then there were the feasts, and the assignations, and all that lovely Essence just begging to be Taken. Taken? The mobs would have _given_ it to him freely, if they understood what Essence was, and how it allowed him to perform his acts of stunningly artistic violence. And then there were the servants, both mortal and celestial, that flocked about Gaius to batten on the crusts that he couldn't finish. They would do anything for, to and with him, just so they could feast. It was truly a Golden Age: a centuries-old party that never seemed to run out of wine, blood and Essence. Then those interfering bastards Uriel, Laurence and Dominic had to go and upset the apple cart. Gaius can even pinpoint the exact moment when it all started to go wrong. He was in the arena, back at the end of the 4th Century AD, when a smelly, fanatical human disrupted the fighting. This fool kept prating about how the Emperor had banned gladiatorial games over half a century ago. Well, of course he had: so what? Laws were no match for the excitement and pomp that could only be found in the arena where man met man and sought to slay one another. Gaius should have let the mortal go away, but he was so used to his unchecked power that any he took any attack on the games personally. He decided to take the dissonance and slay the prattling idiot. How was he supposed to know that said prattling idiot was a Soldier of Judgement? Didn't Heaven teach their servants to wash? Dominic gained a martyr for Catholic mythology from the incident … and the lever to close down the games in Rome. Gaius fought back for as long as he could, but eventually the games disappeared with the Western Empire and the Eastern Empire lost its taste for overt blood sports. This loss diminished Gaius as well: there were times when he was certain that his days were numbered. The next millenium were harsh, harsh days for him: no matter how much he tried to promote blood sports, there was always some grinning celestial (usually Christian) there to foil him. He pushed for private combats between knights: they degenerated into tournaments and rationales for the tepid concepts of courtly love. He encouraged bare-knuckle fighting: that thrice-damned Marquis of Queensbury came up with his ridiculous rules. He helped foster a dozen martial arts in the West and the East: no sooner would one spring up then someone would hijack it and graft on unnatural philosophical principles and insipid moral restrictions. His violent encounters with his oppressors usually ended with him in extended Trauma. Why Baal let him continue to survive is a mystery: possibly the Prince of the War was as nostalgic as Gaius is for the Good Old Days. These days, Gaius hangs around Gehenna, an instructor and general advisor. It's better than nothing, but he still dreams about the arena, and would do almost anything to get back that glory once again. Recently, he had a revelation along those lines. The Prince of the Media is always desperate for new, exciting forms of eye-candy, and what could be more riveting than the sight of two men (or women, or one of each) facing each other on the sands and cutting each other to ribbons? Granted, it would be illegal in most "civilized" countries, but that's never stopped Nybbas before. Gaius could even live with using modern weaponry, or mounting guns on vehicles, just so long as the idea remained pure. Ironically, all of this would be right up Nybbas' alley. Unfortunately, he's not about to start up a new diversion that would directly benefit a Word under a hostile Prince, and Baal absolutely refuses to allow Gaius to break his contract. The thought of what happens to traitors has kept the Demon of Gladiators from just running away and seeking refuge with the Prince of the Media: Gaius also suspects that, under Nybbas, his Word would soon be cheapened and stripped of all majesty. It's not really a viable long-term option. But still, to stand on the sand again and drink in the humans' roar as they watch murder, and cheer, and love the murderer with all their hearts. To stand there again just _once_. ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 10:32:46 -0700 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: Re: IN> Stripping Word-Forces (Re: Contest) At 09:29 AM 9/9/00 -0400, you wrote: >At 9:49 PM -0500 9/8/00, David Edelstein wrote: >>Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>> >Which reminds me of a canon question, can a Superior strip Word forces from >>> >a Servitor? >>> Though I've got a nasty headache at the moment, I don't see why not. They >>> can, IIRC, be lost in celestial combat, after all, no? >> >> >>Only if the Word-holder _chooses_ to sacrifice them in lieu of normal >>Forces. >> >>Giving a Superior the ability to strip Word-Forces will have Bad >>Consequences. > >True -- wasn't thinking of letting them strip it down _entirely_. _That_ >should be forbidden, definitely. No Word-stripping by a single Superior. > >Perhaps it would be more likely to say something along the lines of, >"A Servitor being Force-stripped of _other_ Forces might choose to >sacrifice Word-Forces instead..." Not, of course, that a Prince >would _stop_ there. (And might be able to force the sacrifice via >the "do this or die" model.) > >I can't see any reason to forbid _that_ model, though, since doing so >simply gives us the case of a Prince flicking off Forces randomly in >celestial "combat" and telling the Servitor he'd better be sacrificing >Word Forces here or he's gonna be a toasted remnant soon. Allowing a >celestial being Force-stripped to sacrifice them _that_ way just cuts >out the randomity "middleman" that adhering to the mechanics of "lose >in celestial combat [only], if you choose" would inflict. > >Of course, it _is_ still the celestials decision whether they want to >allow it, which could mean that they cling to it even as a 1-Force celestial >fragment... Oooo, neat idea. *sigh* This is why I -detest- the very concept of Word Forces. They cause more mechanical headaches than they cure, IMHO. Redneck Kris Overstreet, aka Redneck Gaijin publisher, White Lightning Prod. - www.wlpcomics.com I ***LOATHE*** Microsoft Outlook. Please get Eudora. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 12:07:10 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> "I've never killed anyone this way before. It's kind of neat."* In a message dated 9/9/00 2:03:01 PM, moelane_1999@yahoo.com writes: >Gaius >Impudite Knight of the Black Order >Demon of Gladiators > {Snip} And then, for one brief, shining moment, there was 'Fight Club'... And its copycats. :) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 12:23:21 -0400 From: "Aaron Medwin" Subject: IN> "So you've been messing with my buddies, have you?" Sometimes, the oddest ideas just come to mind. I personally dislike Christopher, so I wasn't expecting this thought. Just had to come out, or he would have beaten me up. I'm sure you know the feeling. Enjoy, use, comment upon, flame, mock, belittle, whatever you want. - -Aaron Medwin - ----- Arniel Cherub of Children Corporeal Forces - 3 Strength 7 Agility 5 Ethereal Forces - 2 Intelligence 3 Precision 5 Celestial Forces - 4 Will 8 Perception 8 Vessel: Young human boy/2 Role: "Nick Slovin", kindergardener/6, Status/1 Notable Skills: Chemistry/4, Fighting/5, Lying/3, Area Knowledge(Springfield Elementary School and surrounding environs)/5 Notable Songs: Entropy(Corporeal/3), Motion(Corporeal/3, Celestial/4) Attunements: Cherub of Children Arniel is - *was* - one of Christopher's few combat agents. With a high level Role and a special assignment from his Archangel, he should be on his way to the top. But he's stuck in a Vessel of a six year old boy after killing hundreds of children. He's not likely to go anywhere for another few centuries, if ever. Twenty years ago, an Outcast Calabite of Fleurity killed a young girl(OD on a variety of drugs) to whom Arniel was attuned. Once the Shedite realized what it had done, the demon fled across the country fleeing from the newly-Angry Cherub. For years, it evaded Arniel's single-minded pursuit. Finally, in an empty lot somewhere in the American Midwest, Arniel cornered the Calabite. Rather than face Arniel in combat, the weak Calabite fled to Limbo. Arniel, patient as all Cherubim, attuned to the location and waited. He laid a trap for the Calabite of large amounts of explosives. When the Calabite reappeared, years later, Arniel detonated the charges immediately, sending the Calabite spiraling back into Limbo. In the intervening years, he had no idea that a school had been built nearby. Miraculously, he did not Fall, but was summoned to Archangel Christopher's presence immediately. Christopher was furious with his Servitor, and stripped him of his Distinction and many of his attunements. Never before had a Servitor done so much damage to his Word and not Fallen. Later - an eternity of shame for Arniel - Christopher rendered his final judgment. Consultation with Yves left Christopher feeling that Arniel not Falling was a sign of divine favor, and so he would not destroy his most destructive Servitor. Arniel was to be Bound to a new Vessel, and to live life as a child in the rebuilt school he destroyed. He was to protect the children from all dangers - and be under Cherubic guard himself at all times. Dissonance removed, Discord replaced, Arniel took the identity of a young boy. His Vessel is growing up, and he's done a lot of good protecting the schoolchildren from harm, but he still nurses a grudge against the Calabite. He doesn't plan to overreact again. He hopes he can restrain himself. And in Limbo, a Calabite nurses the thought that if he can get one of Christopher's Servitors to Fall. maybe he could regain his Prince's favor. Hell can always use another Djinn. (Yes, I know Christopher isn't the kind of guy to have fighters as Servitors. Still, someone's got to hunt down the creeps who hunt and prey on kids, so IMC(if I had one, that is), he's got a small organization of trained warriors for just that purpose.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 13:20:09 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Chastity From: "Elizabeth McCoy" > > Kobal would like it, probably. Who do you think suggested to Nybbas to have one of his Servitors give the poor shmuck that CD-ROM, anyway? ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 13:40:03 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Stripping Word-Forces (Re: Contest) Kris Overstreet wrote: > *sigh* This is why I -detest- the very concept of Word Forces. They cause> more mechanical headaches than they cure, IMHO. Well, it wasn't a mechanic I was terribly fond of either, but it's the model that was handed to me, so I did the best I could with them. I don't think it's really a bad mechanic after all, though there are admittedly some bugs, but trying to quantify an essentially subjective phenomenon is never going to be easy. For a more free-form way of handling Words, I'd recommend either Nobilis or Primal Order, though integrating either one with In Nomine would be a non-trivial task. (I have of course already posted my rough draft In Nomine-Nobilis conversion at http://www.amadan.org/nobilis/IN-Nobilis.html - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 14:52:15 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Concepts and Mechanics of Word Forces (Re: IN> Stripping Word-Forces) At 10:32 AM -0700 9/9/00, Kris Overstreet wrote: > >*sigh* This is why I -detest- the very concept of Word Forces. They cause >more mechanical headaches than they cure, IMHO. This is going to be a weirdly recursive post, because I agree with Kris, and so I'm going to talk about Nobilis, which I think does this sort of thing a lot more strongly. It's recursive because I first got interested in Nobilis after reading Mr. Edelstein's IN/Nobilis conversion rules, and I'm going to talk about my ideas for conversion which differ from David's. Not that I expect any of you care. In Nobilis, one's Estate (think Word, but more directly connected and a *lot* more Mythic) is at once independent and interdependent with the Noble who possesses it. You have a certain rating in a Domain statistic, which corresponds to the power and control you potentially have over the Estate. (I'm simplifying, of course). A Noble can perform miracles based upon his Domain -- a Domain of Zero means you need to feed Miracle Points (think Essence) into your Estate to do *anything.* A Domain of 5 (the highest non-"Superior" level of Domain) means you can potentially do *anything* within your Estate with enough Miracle points, and what's more you can do some pretty major miracles at no cost at all. (How major? A Power with a Domain of 5 in the Estate of Night could literally withdraw the night early, causing the sun to rise ahead of schedule, without expenditures of Miracle points. *With* enough Miracle points, he could eliminate the sun entirely, plunging the world into everlasting night for all eternity.) The thing is, increases in Domain (and the other statistics) simply and easily reflect growing power in one's Estate. It becomes easy to quantify and map Beth's Cairdonal, Demon (Power) of Chastity (with the abilities you'd expect of Cairdonal), and Andrealphus, the Prince (Imperator) of Lust, who has control over lust that dwarfs even Powers with Domains of 5. And that, to bring this back towards In Nomine, gives a real advantage to a larger command of one's Word. It would be as if Word Forces no longer reflected the significance of the Word, but *entirely* reflected the connection a Celestial has *to* his Word and his authority *over* his Word. For example, right now a Superior-level Word like Fire grants 21+ Forces. We know this to be true. But we also know that a Celestial can lose those Forces without Fire becoming less significant, which means that the power of the Word determines its strength, but a Celestial can also be divorced from that Word. There *isn't* a way for a Celestial to bind himself more to his Word beyond the Word's significance, however. Someone with the Word of "Print-on-Demand Hardback Role Playing Game Main Rulebooks in the Shade of Pink" can't raise his Word Forces beyond Trivial, in any lasting way. This is all justifiable -- I don't mean to claim otherwise. "This is the maximum power a Word can grant." But it's too restrictive for my tastes -- and the abilities Word Forces grant (attunements and rites after X Forces, extra Essence, extra Soul Death protection) really don't reflect the *Word* as much as I'd like. I mean, let's say someone has a Superior-level Word but isn't a Superior. At 21 Word Forces -- an impossibly powerful number -- that Celestial would have four attunements, some of which he might be able to grant to Servitors, four rites which he could give to Servitors but if his Servitors use them they come out of *his* Essence, and the potential for 21+total Forces points of Essence which still only regenerate at 1 point per day, plus what Rites he uses. All of that's no kick in the teeth, mind. But if we took a more Nobilis oriented track, the possibilities grow. Flexibility happens. And we get more we can do. Taking some of the above and casting it in Nobilis (calling "Domain" the Word Forces stat): Each Estate is limitless in how much much control and embodiment a Celestial can have in it. The Angel of Fire could have a Domain of Zero, and be driven by forces she could barely understand and have no control over. The Demon of "Print-on-Demand Hardback Role Playing Game Main Rulebooks in the Shade of Pink" could have a Domain of Five, and be able to create them out of the aether, to reach his hand into a bookshelf of a burning library and find a copy of the pink hardcover book "Ex Libris: The Burning -- the role playing game of Balseraphs escaping out of burning libraries that are surrounded by Malakim" and get relevant advice on what to do out of it. The Demon of Stale Bong Water could cause a deluge of skanky bong spew to wash San Francisco out to sea with a high enough Domain. God's Law and Lucifer's Rules would be what keeps our fragile Earth from being torn asunder by truly godlike Angels and Demons, and a Word becomes a prize beyond worth -- even if the Word itself is "useless." Now, I'm not suggesting we import Nobilis's mechanics directly into IN. It's a totally different game if we do, with amazingly high power levels. A reconciliation of concepts should maintain the look and feel of In Nomine. But... there's fertile ground for making higher numbers of Word Forces hard (but possible) for anyone to attain, and actually increasing the Celestial's Powers and Abilities in the process -- make 18 Word Forces the maximum for a non-Superior, the way 18 Forces are, for example. And ultimately, making the basic idea behind Estates in Nobilis (greater understanding and control of one's concept) into something workable under In Nomine's power structure and level. Heck, break them down into the realms, and assign abilities based on the Realm of the Word Forces. (Yeah, I'm kind of thinking out loud, here....) For instance, let's take a moderately decent Word... hm... looking around my office, I'm going to say Ethernet. Cisco, the Ofanite Angel of Ethernet is a Servitor of Lightning in Service to Networks. He's a 13 Force Angel with four Corporeal Forces, 5 Ethereal Forces and 4 Celestial Forces. His statistics are set based on those as normal. However, he's managed to build his connection to the Word of Ethernet up to 9 Word Forces -- 3 Corporeal, 3 Ethereal and 3 Celestial. Under this totally unplaytested, off the cuff system, we'll give Word Forces the following abilities and drawbacks: * 1 extra point of potential Essence storage per Word Force. * Substituting a Word Force for a lost Personal Force of the same Realm in Celestial Combat (IE -- substitute an Ethereal Word Force instead of an Ethereal Force of the same Realm) to a minimum of 1 Force per Realm. However, regardless of the number of Word Forces in a Realm, if a Celestial is dropped to 0 Personal Forces in that Realm, he loses all Word Forces in that Realm as well. (So a Remnant loses all Celestial Word Forces as soon as he loses his last personal Celestial Force). * Adding Word Forces of an appropriate realm as a modifier to rolls dealing with that realm. (For instance, the Angel of Force could add her Corporeal Word Forces to a physical attack, the Angel of Networks could add its Ethereal Word Forces to an attempt to figure out where lost packets are being interrupted on a LAN, the Demon of Ice would add his Celestial Word Forces to a Will roll to keep from shivering in a bitterly cold wind, and so on.) * A new attunement for every 3 Word Forces a Celestial has in *one* Realm. So, the Demon of Express Mail (3 W-Corp, 2 W-Eth, 1 W-Cel) has 6 total Word Forces, but only gains one Attunement -- in this case one with a Corporeal bent. Furthermore, every other Attunement granted (starting with the second) is one the Celestial can grant to a Servitor. So, an 18 Word Force Celestial will have 6 Attunements, 2 from each Realm, and may grant 3 of them to his Servitors. * A new Rite for every 6 total Word Forces, regardless of Realm. So, the abovementioned Demon of Express Mail has 6 total Word Forces, and therefore gets one Rite. Rites may always be granted to Servitors, and do not access the Celestial's own personal Essence unless the Rite grants more than 1 Essence (which is up to the Word-Bound). 1 Essence taken from the Word is replenished by the small bit of promotion the Word gets by performing the Rite. If a Rite grants 2 or more Essence, the Word-Bound must make up the difference. (Which is why the "Kill a Servitor of Cruelty" 5 Essence rite of Gabriel's weakens her, for example). This also explains why an Archangel is likely to have lots of Attunements (including one per Choir/Band) but comparatively few basic Rites. * One extra point of Essence per day, for every 9 Word Forces, rounded down. So, a Word-Bound with 8 or less Word Forces regenerates the normal single point of Essence a day, one with 9-17 Word Forces regenerates 2, and an 18 Word Force Word-bound regenerates 3. * With 18 Word Forces, a Word-Bound may begin receiving Tethers to his Word, though a Superior is still needed to stabilize the Tether. (Lilith charges a Geas/6 for this service....) * Word Forces may be bought the same that other Forces may be bought, generally IC from the same methods (Superior granting a new Word Force, study, meditation or training and the like). However, while all Word-Bound may develop their Word Forces up to 18, significant damage done to the perception of their Words is still crippling to them -- and all the moreso if the Word is weak or insignificant. When the GM decides that enough damage has occured to a Word-Bound's Word to cause him to lose a Word Force, the Realm is determined the same way as if the Word-Bound lost it in Celestial Combat. Once a Word Force is lost in this way, it is *lost,* and the Celestial can't regain it unless he spends points to do so or regains it in one of the standard ways. Stronger Words don't tend to take Word-damage as often, where weaker ones do -- and the higher affinity a Word-Bound with a lot of Word Forces has to a weak word may make him vulnerable to assault. (Pity the poor Demon of the MTV Music Awards -- she lost a Word Force when the guy scaled up the set, and another when a fight broke out, and another when they had to cut the live broadcast off, and another with the arrests, and almost lost one more with Britney Spears's striptease....) Remember that a Realm's Word Forces can't drop below 1 so long as the Celestial has Personal Forces in that Realm, so if he's hit hard enough he'll lose personal Forces instead. (And if his Personal Forces in a Realm drop to zero, he also loses his last remaining Word Force in that Realm.) So, Celestials can still die with their Words. Using these off the cuff guidelines, let's look at Cisco. At 9 total Word Forces, he receives an extra point of Essence a day (1 for being an Angel, and 1 from the Word of Ethernet). Since he has more than 9 total Word Forces but less than 12, he receives 1 Rite, which he can pass onto Servitors of his own. As he has 3 Word Forces in all three Realms, he receives 1 Attunement per Realm, one of which he can also grant to other Servitors. He can store up to 9 more points of Essence (or 22 total points with his 13 Personal Forces). And he gets +3 to rolls dealing with Ethernet in either the Corporeal Realm (say, an attempt to plug twenty-four patch cables into a switch in under five seconds), the Ethereal Realm (say, programming a port-based VLAN in a switch) or the Celestial Realm (say, a perception roll to find the one red light on a switch in a sea of orange flashes). Cisco decides to take a simple Rite (Spend three hours or more wiring and configuring a building for Ethernet). For his Corporeal Attunement, he develops the ability to repair a blown Ethernet board (whether switched, hub or NIC card in a computer) by touching it and spending 1 Essence, and calls it "The Engineer's Touch." For his Ethereal Attunement, he develops the ability to plug into an Ethernet port with his little finger and access the cpu and hard drive of any active computer on the Ethernet network segment with an Intelligence Roll (Modified by Ethereal Word Forces) for CD minutes, calling that "Packet Sniffer." For his Celestial Attunement, he develops the ability to deny any one computer plugged into his Ethernet Network (all segments that are routed, though not including Internet links) any access to the Ethernet network at all, regardless of configuration, with a Will Roll (modified by Celestial Word Forces) and 1 Essence expended, for CD hours, calling that "Denial of Service." Denial of Service also affects Celestial technology and visitors, including Kyriotates and Ofanites of Lightning and Shedim of Technology, though a sentient 'computer' may contest with a Will Roll. Cisco decides to be able to grant The Engineer's Touch to his Servitors (since that way they can more easily help him repair downed Ethernet networks). So, while it doesn't have the wild creativity of Nobilis, nor the awesome power levels, something like this could more easily reflect a Word-Bound actually growing into his *Word,* with his Word Forces reflecting his ties to it, than the standard rules. Man, this grew without warning.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1813 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.