From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Sep 20 20:54:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA08608 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:54:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id UAA06173 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:52:34 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:52:34 -0500 Message-Id: <200009210152.UAA06173@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1826 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, September 20 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1826 In this digest: Re: IN> Another Insomnia Character... Re: IN> Another Insomnia Character... IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary Re: IN> Another Insomnia Character... Re: IN> Another Insomnia Character... Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary IN> Disturbance Re: IN> Disturbance Re: IN> Disturbance Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary IN> Another Weird Christian Site Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary IN> Semi-delirious thought Re: IN> Semi-delirious thought Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary Re: IN> Semi-delirious thought Re: IN> Semi-delirious thought Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary Re: IN> Disturbance Re: IN> Disturbance Re: IN> Disturbance Re: IN> Disturbance IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. Re: IN> Servitors of Light Re: IN> Disturbance Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. Re: IN> Disturbance ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:51:00 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Another Insomnia Character... At 6:09 AM +0000 9/19/00, Jo Hart wrote: >>From: Elizabeth McCoy > >> >>That too. But you'll either need to leave the room, or gag her, or >>use earplugs. I mean, have you ever heard a Balseraph _whine_...? >>I'm telling ya, 'sawful... >> > >Surgically remove the subject's voicebox. > But use ether -- after all, you wouldn't want her to *suffer...* - -- I have a broken hand, so spelling errors, capitalization errors, and extremely slow response times should be treated as precious things, not errors, because I'm not about to correct them. Neener. Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:54:33 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Another Insomnia Character... From: "Whistling in the Dark" > At 6:09 AM +0000 9/19/00, Jo Hart wrote: > >>From: Elizabeth McCoy > >> > >>That too. But you'll either need to leave the room, or gag her, or > >>use earplugs. I mean, have you ever heard a Balseraph _whine_...? > >>I'm telling ya, 'sawful... > > > >Surgically remove the subject's voicebox. > > But use ether -- after all, you wouldn't want her to *suffer...* Or you could always develop a variant of Corporeal Form that renders another being mute... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:35:01 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary http://www.dcmcnamara.com/ and http://www.godhatesfags.com These are the products of very disturbed humans without any celestial intervention. Now think of them in IN. Demonic (or angelic for those playing backwards or Jack Chick style) patronage can make them actually effective. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus If you have time to kill, why not kill it at http://ucsub.Colorado.edu/~grothtp/In.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:23:23 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary Tim Groth wrote: > > http://www.dcmcnamara.com/ and http://www.godhatesfags.com Phelps' website is well-known. Phelps is Evil in a way that even Jack Chick is not. The first, though, strikes me as fishy; it's so over-the-top as to make me suspect a parody. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 05:48:42 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Another Insomnia Character... > > >Surgically remove the subject's voicebox. > > > > But use ether -- after all, you wouldn't want her to *suffer...* > >Or you could always develop a variant of Corporeal Form that renders >another >being mute... > Indeed, both of those notions are possessed of a certain validity. Gentleman, consider yourselves invited to join my research team. jo _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:02:43 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Another Insomnia Character... From: "Jo Hart" > > > >Or you could always develop a variant of Corporeal Form that renders > >another > >being mute... > > Indeed, both of those notions are possessed of a certain validity. > Gentleman, consider yourselves invited to join my research team. So that, when we capture the Balseraph in question, we can revel in the sounds of silence. ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:33:15 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary - --On Tuesday, September 19, 2000 11:23 PM -0500 David Edelstein wrote: > Tim Groth wrote: >> >> http://www.dcmcnamara.com/ and http://www.godhatesfags.com > > > Phelps' website is well-known. Phelps is Evil in a way that even > Jack Chick is not. > > The first, though, strikes me as fishy; it's so over-the-top as to > make me suspect a parody. > "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Like the Nephlim hunters. Oy. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation (Hamlet, Act I, Scene 5) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:35:43 -0500 From: "James Bearse & Brandy Badenoch" Subject: Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary You think it's scary? I have to live in Topeka and see Fred Phelps on an almost DAILY basis. Painful. Anyway, I always thought of people like him as having originally been potential Soldiers of God (for their strong religious beliefs) - but they were taken out early by Kronos' people by subtly encouraging them towards this sort of rampant idiocy. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Groth" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 10:35 PM Subject: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary > http://www.dcmcnamara.com/ and http://www.godhatesfags.com > > These are the products of very disturbed humans without any celestial > intervention. Now think of them in IN. Demonic (or angelic for those > playing backwards or Jack Chick style) patronage can make them actually > effective. > > > > Timothy, Angel of Rambling > Ofanite of Creation > ArchRival of Mathus > If you have time to kill, why not kill it at > http://ucsub.Colorado.edu/~grothtp/In.html > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 00:38:44 +1000 From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Disturbance Here's a puzzler... Say a celestial took a human/animal, and confined them somewhere. If they then let the person starve to death, would this creat disturbance? Same question for if they let them die of thirst or left them in an airtight room. If it would create disturbance...when would it? Does starvation / suffocation / thirst cause damage? If yes would the disturbance be cumulative (i.e. disturbance of one after the first 4 points, a new disturbance of 2 after the second 2 and so on?) Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:21:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Guy Royse Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance - --- Azrael wrote: > Here's a puzzler... > > Say a celestial took a human/animal, and confined them somewhere. If > they then let the person starve to death, would this create > disturbance? > > Same question for if they let them die of thirst or left them in an > airtight room. > > If it would create disturbance...when would it? > Does starvation / suffocation / thirst cause damage? > If yes would the disturbance be cumulative (i.e. disturbance of one > after the first 4 points, a new disturbance of 2 after the second 2 > and so on?) This reminds me of the demon in FotM who was pickling people. He was slowly injuring people to minimize disturbances. Starving someone isn't reallt that different, if you think about it. So I would be inclined to say yes, starving someone would cause a disturbance. As far as the details of starvation, thirst, exposure, et al. the In Nomine rules don't really cover that sort of stuff so I would just make it up. It takes a week to die of thirst and a month to starve. Extrapolate form there. :) Now a related question. What if a demon caused someone to become bulemic or anorexic? Would the ensuing starvation damage create a disturbance? Hmmm.... Guy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:57:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance At 12:38 AM +1000 9/21/00, Azrael wrote: >Here's a puzzler... > >Say a celestial took a human/animal, and confined them somewhere. If they >then let the person starve to death, would this creat disturbance? This is somewhat of a iffy thing, depending highly on the GM. On the one hand, this is clearly something that a celestial did, and _should_ cause disturbance. On the other hand, for what it's worth, FotM has an Impudite of Kobal (who is immune to Impudite Dissonance Conditions if it's part of a joke) pickling humans in barrels... The humans don't die instantly, but are slowly poisioned by their own wastes, and that allegedly makes no noise when they ultimately perish. This _suggests_ that a confined human, starving/thirsting to death will _not_ cause disturbance, or at least not much, because the damage is not administered all at once, and is more "subtle" than, say, vehicular homicide. OTOH, you could also view this precident from FotM as Yet Another Hole (it was pretty clearly stuck in so that the Impudite wouldn't have the anti-disturbance celestials breathing down his neck for his little game), and ignore it. (It does fuzz up the question of distubance annoyingly, so if I were revising the FotM adventure/setting, I think I would have the process be such that the humans did not die; it's supernatural, right?) As a GM, without striking that precedent from my game, I think I would have the question be a fuzzy one -- sometimes it would cause disturbance, sometimes less disturbance than expected, sometimes none. Keep the PCs on their toes about whether that's a "safe" way to get rid of a human or not. (The GM could smirk and roll a die -- 1-2, disturbance; 3-4, reduced disturbance; 5-6, full disturbance equal to that generated by the damage done (however much required to kill that human) + Death Of Human disturbance.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 02:15:47 +1000 From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary > Phelps' website is well-known. Phelps is Evil in a way that even Jack > Chick is not. OH MY GOD!!! O_O You are *so* right David! I have only read the first to answer on the FAQ page, and instantly I dislike this man *even* more than I dislike Chick...something I never thought possible. He certainly turned me into a believer...not but not in what he sought to do, I now have concrete evidence that In Nomine is the *Literal truth*, and Demons and their pawns are among us. Azrael...in shock ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:50:10 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary - --On Thursday, September 21, 2000 2:15 AM +1000 Azrael wrote: >> Phelps' website is well-known. Phelps is Evil in a way that even >> Jack Chick is not. > > OH MY GOD!!! O_O > > You are *so* right David! > > I have only read the first to answer on the FAQ page, and instantly > I dislike this man *even* more than I dislike Chick...something I > never thought possible. > > He certainly turned me into a believer...not but not in what he > sought to do, I now have concrete evidence that In Nomine is the > *Literal truth*, and Demons and their pawns are among us. > > Azrael...in shock > Don't let this bother you, David. He does this a lot. We go through this every time he reads an Oliver Stone novel... Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Back, and to the left.") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:08:44 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary James Bearse & Brandy Badenoch wrote: > Anyway, I always thought of people like him as having originally been > potential Soldiers of God (for their strong religious beliefs) - but they > were taken out early by Kronos' people by subtly encouraging them towards > this sort of rampant idiocy. No. Phelps was never anything like a Soldier of God. He's evil to the core, and apparently always has been -- his "church" is just a nifty gimmick he found to inflict his evil on a larger scale. You can read his biography here: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/michael_haggerty/expose3.htm. It will make you sick, and wonder why a man who has admitted to beating his children almost to death and taking pleasure in it isn't in prison. A perfect example of how evil humans can be _without_ demonic influence. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 03:04:05 +1000 From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Another Weird Christian Site I dont know if this one is widely known, I think that it isnt serious...but I dont know the personality...mabybe those from the USA might www.bettybowers.com Azrael "You may not use any material from this page, and you must also agree to paying a 50 cent royalty to me each time you use the word "God", by viewing this page you agree to these terms." - Disclaimer, www.godhatesfigs.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:10:58 -0500 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary James Bearse & Brandy Badenoch wrote: > > You think it's scary? I have to live in Topeka and see Fred Phelps on an > almost DAILY basis. Painful. > > Anyway, I always thought of people like him as having originally been > potential Soldiers of God (for their strong religious beliefs) - but they > were taken out early by Kronos' people by subtly encouraging them towards > this sort of rampant idiocy. What does religion have to do with being a Soldier of God? Matt Trent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:41:40 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary >You think it's scary? I have to live in Topeka and see Fred Phelps on an >almost DAILY basis. Painful. > >Anyway, I always thought of people like him as having originally been >potential Soldiers of God (for their strong religious beliefs) - but they >were taken out early by Kronos' people by subtly encouraging them towards >this sort of rampant idiocy. That's got to be rough. The worst I have to deal with out here is the 10+ campus christian groups that keep trying to make it a christian campus (they don't seem to understand that being a public school that isn't legal). I don't think religious beliefs matter for being a Soldier of God, strong pagan beliefs certainly aren't going to impress Heaven and I bet Laurence finds people like Phelps and Chick sickening. Not only are they protestants but their psychotic ones who trounce on all the things that make Christianity respectable. I think that more likely potential Soldiers of God are people trying to bring reason and compasion to the world, regardless of if its with religion or just being a good person. Also both sides are just after anyone with the potential Forces. There's time after recruiting for molding them. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus If you have time to kill, why not kill it at http://ucsub.Colorado.edu/~grothtp/In.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:59:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Semi-delirious thought It occurs to me that, seeing as that the Eden Experiment actually took place after humanity evolved into its present form, that it is entirely possible that there are blessed souls in Heaven that predate the Fall. No doubt, most have long since gone to their final reward, but any soul that witnessed the First Rebellion might have an additional incentive to stick around and help clean up the mess. Heck, there might even be a Saint or two on Earth. On a related note, I'm wondering when the various Superiors started using Soldiers. I would guess post-Fall... Moe P.S.: No, I am _not_ thinking of writing up a Saint of Light. Admittedly, the major reason why I'm not thinking of writing it is because I'm getting over a cold, and haven't been able to write anything coherent for three days, but still... :) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:12:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Semi-delirious thought Maurice Lane wrote: > It occurs to me that, seeing as that the Eden > Experiment actually took place after humanity evolved > into its present form, that it is entirely possible > that there are blessed souls in Heaven that predate > the Fall. In Heaven or in the Marches. I've considered that a lot of "fays" might be pre-Fall human dreamshades. Fays have a traditional connection with the dead, after all. Dreamshades are supposed to be transient, eventually gravitating to Heaven or Hell, but that rule might only apply to Adamite humans. For that matter, some pre-Adamite shades might have been Ethereal gods. They'd have had to evade Uriel, and would probably be low in power, lacking worshippers, but unlike many purely Ethereal spirits, they wouldn't need belief or worship to continue existing, and so would be more rugged in that sense. Since Hell didn't exist until after the Fall, evil pre-Adamites (if any) would pretty much have to go to the Marches, disband, or reincarnate. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 13:57:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary - --- Matt Trent wrote: > What does religion have to do with being a Soldier of God? Quite a bit, actually. 1) Anyone who's not a believer would certainly become one when the angel walked up and said, "You're working for me, now." 2) A person who would make a conscious choice to serve Heaven would probably be at least nominally religious to start with. Athiests are more likely to become Gray Soldiers. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "God, protect me from my friends - -- my enemies I can handle." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:05:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Semi-delirious thought - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > I've considered that a lot of > "fays" might be pre-Fall human dreamshades. Fays have a > traditional connection with the dead, after all. Dreamshades > are supposed to be transient, eventually gravitating to Heaven > or Hell, but that rule might only apply to Adamite humans. Or the Faerie may have found a way to incorporate their Worship Rites into the funerary rites of the Picts and Celts. > For that matter, some pre-Adamite shades might have been > Ethereal gods. They'd have had to evade Uriel, and would > probably be low in power, lacking worshippers, but unlike many > purely Ethereal spirits, they wouldn't need belief or worship > to continue existing, and so would be more rugged in that sense. Ah, don't be so eurocentric. ;> Ancestor worship is alive and well in many parts of the world (especially Africa). The Dream Shades/Gods that you describe could thrive quite well in Madagascar -- and the Purity Crusade could've missed them altogether simply by mistaking them for ordinary Dream Shades. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "God, protect me from my friends - -- my enemies I can handle." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:01:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Semi-delirious thought - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > No, I am _not_ thinking of writing up a Saint > of Light. Admittedly, the major reason why I'm not > thinking of writing it is because I'm getting over a > cold, and haven't been able to write anything coherent > for three days, but still... :) Hmmm... I believe "Saint of Light" is Helltongue for "priority target." ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "God, protect me from my friends - -- my enemies I can handle." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:30:41 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary >> What does religion have to do with being a Soldier of God? > > Quite a bit, actually. > >1) Anyone who's not a believer would certainly become one when the >angel walked up and said, "You're working for me, now." They don't have to start adhering to any specific religious beliefs. They are going to accept that there are angels and demons, but given the differences between the way the IN world works and religious scripture the faithful are the ones most likely to have to start reorganizing beliefs than a general theist, agnostic or even soft atheist. >2) A person who would make a conscious choice to serve Heaven would >probably be at least nominally religious to start with. Athiests are >more likely to become Gray Soldiers. If you think all Atheists are morally gray. Åssuming Heaven is more moral than hell many good individuals are going to align with it who can be atheists until the point when angels and demons start appearing. If you have Superiors 3 you'll notice that in IN canon the holiest man in the world can be an atheist. Religious nut jobs are going to align with Hell, Heaven lets too many people in. Their probably going to have Habbalah masters and think they're serving Heaven, but a reasonably forwards high contrast Heaven isn't going to want much to do with the Chicks and Phelps of the world. Religion has nothing to do with character. It has nothing to do with Selfish/Selfless, which is all that IN uses as a criteria for Hellish/Heavenly. Yves is working for philosophical Selflessness among humans. That may well mean that many people start becoming very secular and humanist, but what does he care as long as their all being friendly to one another? Ok, I just rambled on a bit. But religion has nothing to do with being a Soldier of God. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus If you have time to kill, why not kill it at http://ucsub.Colorado.edu/~grothtp/In.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:42:03 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary > >2) A person who would make a conscious choice to serve Heaven would >probably be at least nominally religious to start with. OTOH, anyone whose sense of religion was stronger than common sense would also be easy prey to be picked up by demons pretending to be angels. (I'm reminded of spy stories I've read where Russian agents pretended to be South African because the target had strong family links with South Africa.) jo _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:41:01 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance At 10:57 20/09/00 -0400, you wrote: >This _suggests_ that a confined human, starving/thirsting to death >will _not_ cause disturbance, or at least not much, because the >damage is not administered all at once, and is more "subtle" than, >say, vehicular homicide. Might another way of looking at it be that the celestial didn't 'kill' the mortal, starvation, pickling, thirst, whatever 'killed' the mortal? In other words, disturbance is caused by the actions of celestials on the corporeal plane, not by the consequences of those actions. So, if the celestial locked the mortal up (or pickled her, whatever), that action (of locking up or pickling) could cause disturbance but whatever happened to the mortal afterwards wouldn't. Would the symphony be able to sound the difference between a human starving =because= of the action of a celestial at a former point in time and a human starving anyway (seeing there are so many humans starving at any given instant), or a human starving due to some political plot of Malphas? If an angel stamped his foot in the bahamas and a hurricane subsequently occurred, would the fact that these two events might be linked by chaos theory imply that the angel had caused disturbance in the symphony? >Now a related question. What if a demon caused someone to become >bulemic or anorexic? Would the ensuing starvation damage create a >disturbance? Hmmm.... Again, the action that caused the person to acquire that disorder would cause disturbance. I'm not sure that the subsequent damage caused by the disorder (not the celestial) would continue to cause disturbance. Hilary Wondering whether to apply for the word of lateral semantics... Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:13:15 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance At 8:41 PM +0100 9/20/00, Omentide wrote: >At 10:57 20/09/00 -0400, you wrote: >>This _suggests_ that a confined human, starving/thirsting to death >>will _not_ cause disturbance, or at least not much, because the >>damage is not administered all at once, and is more "subtle" than, >>say, vehicular homicide. > >Might another way of looking at it be that the celestial didn't 'kill' the >mortal, starvation, pickling, thirst, whatever 'killed' the mortal? What about suffocation from hanging a mortal from a noose? (No, seriously, explore this. O:> ) - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:09:49 EDT From: Galen Silversmith Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance > Return-Path: emccoy@nh.ultranet.com > At 8:41 PM +0100 9/20/00, Omentide wrote: > >At 10:57 20/09/00 -0400, you wrote: > >>This _suggests_ that a confined human, starving/thirsting to death > >>will _not_ cause disturbance, or at least not much, because the > >>damage is not administered all at once, and is more "subtle" than, > >>say, vehicular homicide. > > > >Might another way of looking at it be that the celestial didn't 'kill' the > >mortal, starvation, pickling, thirst, whatever 'killed' the mortal? > > What about suffocation from hanging a mortal from a noose? > > (No, seriously, explore this. O:> ) A 'proper' hanging is one which breaks the neck of the intended. Clean snap, its all over. The idea that a hanging causes death from sufficiation is a misnomer, and only occurs in an effort to torture the intended (who is then taken off, and then made to confess, by the inquisision), or in a mistake (see the WWI war crimes tribunal, and the Sgt who was removed as an army execusioner for making this mistake. Occasionaly, thje other extreme occurs (decapitation), but thats rarer. Regardless, the question is can the symphony tell what a celestials intent is? I think so, as the mortal would be in a differnt position if not for them, so it will generate a disturbance, from the point where the celestial is the predicate cause, til the situation is terminated. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 00:01:58 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance >What about suffocation from hanging a mortal from a noose? > >(No, seriously, explore this. O:> ) What Galen said. Plus death of mortal is a direct consequence of the action of the celestial (in much the same way as it would be if said mortal were to bleed to death having been struck by a celestial with a big sword). The death of the mortal is a lot closer in time to the celestial's action. The celestial's action in killing the mortal is what disturbs the symphony. In the case of a hanging, the action and the death are all but simultaneous. In the case of starvation (or pickling) the death occurs some time after the initial disturbance caused by the action of the celestial. Additionally, whereas one could reasonably argue that there is a great deal of background 'noise' in the symphony caused by the routine death by starvation of countless mortals, hanging is a far rarer occurrence and, hence, would be more noticeable. This argument, I concede, cannot honestly be applied to the concept of 'death by pickling'. Hilary (if I can't apply for lateral semantics, how about paralegal logic?) Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:59:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. I was watching that animated flick Prince of Egypt, see, and they've just done the parting of the Red Sea. Most dramatic part of the entire movie, and the only thing that popped into my (admittedly feverish) head was: "How the _hell_ did a not-even-Word-bound manage to pull that off? Khalid, Archangel of Faith _might_ have been able to do it. But Khalid, Elohite Servitor of Purity? No way, Jose." If anyone can see a not-Divine-Interventional way to duplicate the trick (that doesn't assume one has access to 10,000 Essence), I'd for one would be fascinated to hear it. :) Moe PS: On a totally unrelated note, if a artifact is designed to explode whenever one Band comes within range, and only that Band, and only affects members of that Band within range, and never, ever can be made to explode under any other circumstances, is this an enhancement, a limitation, or just a special effect? ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:16:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Light Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:49:57 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Light >I agree with Michael Walton that there's no reason to >suppose a hugely disproportionate number of Angels of >Light fell in the War in Heaven. Oh, maybe somewhat >more than the average one third, since misplaced >loyalty to a Superior probably drew some, and Lucifer >may have worked harder on some of his own. I'm somewhat in between. On the one hand, it would make sense for Lucifer to concentrate on his own Servitors first, then have them branch out and try and talk the lower echelons into his way of thinking while he concentrated on the Archangels and senior Word-bound. More efficient, albeit horribly less secure. OTOH, I can't see Light as being the sort of Word that could inspire enough devotion in its Servitors to make them choose to Fall. The only example we have of even the _potential_ Fall of an Archangel was Khalid, and the loyalty of his angels was a special case. >But also, the unfallen Light angels have very largely >been re-assigned to other Archangels, I'd think. >Some would seek it entirely on their own, repulsed by >what their old master did. The rest would be leaned >on heavily by many parties in Heaven, so as to >increase the distance between themselves and their >old Master. Agreed, although groups of Orphans of Light could exist. Depending on how freaky Dominic is in a given campaign, this could be anything from a Stone 'gang' or Laurencian order to a proscribed cult. >'Course, that *does* mean there are some angels with >the interesting line in their resumes, "Created by >Lucifer." Or, better yet, "Created with Lucifer's _personal_ Forces". Just _try_ explaining to a triad why, just because you happen to be a Son (or Daughter) of Satan, you aren't automatic demonbait.... :) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 20 Sep 2000 20:20:58 -0400 From: jmcbray@carcosa.net (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance >>>>> "A" == Azrael writes: A> Say a celestial took a human/animal, and confined them somewhere. If they A> then let the person starve to death, would this creat disturbance? IMC it would cause disturbance. One note every time the human or animal took sufficient Body hits from starvation, and for the human, the additional 10 points when they finally died. While this wouldn't be silent, it would be quieter than most other ways of killing someone: the single notes wouldn't be cumulative as they would be if they were all inflicted at once. - -- +-----------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@carcosa.net | | A flower falls, even though we love it; and a weed grows, | | even though we do not love it. -- Dogen | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 00:39:55 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. > >If anyone can see a not-Divine-Interventional way to >duplicate the trick (that doesn't assume one has >access to 10,000 Essence), I'd for one would be >fascinated to hear it. :) > Well actually .... The thing about the parting of the red sea is that the phenomenon can happen in nature. Wadis (dry river beds) can flood very very quickly in flash flood conditions. So all it would take is the right time of year, and a song of weather control. Alternatively, chalk it down to divine or infernal intervention. jo _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:01:57 -0500 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. Jo Hart wrote: > Well actually .... > > The thing about the parting of the red sea is that the phenomenon can happen > in nature. Wadis (dry river beds) can flood very very quickly in flash flood > conditions. So all it would take is the right time of year, and a song of > weather control. > > Alternatively, chalk it down to divine or infernal intervention. That's what I'd do. One of those nifty ones that only a human praying can pull off. Matt Trent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:52:54 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance >At 8:41 PM +0100 9/20/00, Omentide wrote: >>At 10:57 20/09/00 -0400, you wrote: >>>This _suggests_ that a confined human, starving/thirsting to death >>>will _not_ cause disturbance, or at least not much, because the >>>damage is not administered all at once, and is more "subtle" than, >>>say, vehicular homicide. >> >>Might another way of looking at it be that the celestial didn't 'kill' the >>mortal, starvation, pickling, thirst, whatever 'killed' the mortal? > >What about suffocation from hanging a mortal from a noose? > >(No, seriously, explore this. O:> ) > > >--Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. >"She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which." Well, who "kills" a mortal? If I pull the trigger on a gun, and the guy dies, I could claim that I didn't kill him - I pulled a trigger and expelled a bit of lead. The guy happened to be in the way, and the lead tore up his lungs and heart. His circulatory system stopped functioning, and eventually his brain died from lack of materials and buildup of toxins. Where was I involved in killing him? I was involved like this: I *intended* to kill him. I did something which directly, purposefully, was intended to cause his death. He had no chance to escape. If I had been slowly pickling someone, then at the moment they died, they would have died because I did something to them which caused their death. At that moment, the disturbance caused by a human's death would echo through the Symphony. If we were playing with sticky disturbance, I'd emanate it then and there. Also, while the process had been going on, the person would have been sustaining damage - not all damage is as clear as a physical wound. They would be getting sicker and sicker, and it would take time for them to recover if they managed to get out. As the damage was done to them, every time a new, lower physical plateau was reached(in IN terms, every time 4 points of physical damage was done to an object in the Symphony, specifically the human) the damage would generate disturbance. And let's not forget the Grigori. They can sense mental damage - Mind hits and emotional trauma generate subtle Disturbance that they can sense. And there would, unless the human was extremely stable and calm throughout the ordeal, be serious mental trauma involved. In general, I'd say that, despite the Shedim's desire to be free of responsibility, there is a Divine Judge who knows and assigns Disturbance based on intent and action. Your sin *will* find you out. Let's flip the question on its head. When would a human's death *not* cause Disturbance? After all, every demon is, if not directly, seeking pain, death, and damnation for every human on the planet. Their every action bespeaks it. I'd answer that human Free Will is the ultimate way to relieve a celestial of Disturbance-generating responsibility. If there was some action the human *could* have taken, but didn't(and in order to be able to take the action, the idea to take the action must at least have crossed their minds), then their eventual death does not generate Disturbance. Some examples: If the Shedite gets its host depressed, puts a gun in their hands, writes a suicide note, kneels, puts the gun in the mouth, yells "do it Do It DO IT DO IT NOW!" and jumps free, the human is still staring down the barrel of a gun and has his choice, leaving the Shedite scot free - the human still has a choice, despite the fact that the Shedite has nearly forced his hand. If Dru gives a kid an OD of cocaine, Dru is okay if the kid takes it by choice - the kid knew drugs could be lethal. On the other hand, if it was a laced joint, the kid might have had a reasonable expectation of not dying, at least not from any one joint, and certainly not from poison; and so they didn't have an opportunity to avoid the damage, and Dru suffers the Disturbance. (Of course, Dru suffers a lot more than Disturbance, but that's because he needs his Word stripped, IMHO. ;P ) If a Malakite sets a booby trap, he's intending for it to be lethal. When it kills a Hellsworn instead of the Balseraph it was intended for, the Malakite nevertheless suffers the Disturbance, because he intended to cause violent damage, and it did. If it had crossed the Hellsworn's mind that maybe he oughta check for booby traps, there'd been reports of an angel around, this was a good place for one, and he decided "Naah," then the Malakite can grin at avoiding the Hellsworn's death Disturbance - tough cookie, soul-seller. Whether this actually crossed his mind is the GM's call, but if he was in his HQ or a random elsewhere, probably not.... If it was enemy territory or he knew angels were about, then probably. If the human could have escaped death-from-thirst while trapped in a bear trap, but couldn't bring himself to saw off his own leg, I'd call this Disturbance. The human would be fighting against his own instincts, which might prove as much of a trap as the iron. No reasonable chance. What if it was an accident? Say, the celestial is driving a car and hits another one, killing the human inside before they even see the celestial coming? I'd say disturbance, because the human could not reasonably have avoided it. Summation: In general I would suggest the following guideline: for death-disturbance to happen, the celestial must have put the human in a situation(pickling, noose, pulled a trigger, caused a car accident) where the human must have had no reasonable choice of action to escape the impending doom - the escape route was nonobvious, they weren't expecting the death, the escape required a skill the human didn't have, etc. I hope this long-winded talk helped. I don't think it removes all the greyness. Indeed, given the uncertain nature of Free Will in In Nomine, and the possibility for any "source-of-disturbance" examination to descend into First Cause, I don't think anything ever will. William ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1826 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.