From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Sep 21 15:13:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA30623 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:13:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA09587 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:09:34 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:09:34 -0500 Message-Id: <200009212009.PAA09587@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1827 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, September 21 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1827 In this digest: Re: IN> Disturbance Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary Re: IN> Servitors of Light Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary Re: IN> Disturbance IN> Choir8 Webpage Re: IN> Semi-delirious thought IN> Word Bounds - their Superiors and their Chiors Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. Re: IN> Disturbance Re: IN> Disturbance Re: IN> Word Bounds - their Superiors and their Chiors Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary Re: IN> Disturbance Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. Re: IN> Semi-delirious thought Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. IN> A suggestion for yet another massive, blissfully unprofitable, fan endeavour Re: IN> Disturbance Re: IN> Disturbance IN> Coming off of Disturbance Re: IN> Disturbance Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. Re: IN> Servitors of Light Re: IN> Servitors of Light Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. Re: IN> Disturbance ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:53:22 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance In a message dated 9/20/00 4:49:45 PM Central Daylight Time, omentide.omentide@Virgin.Net writes: << Again, the action that caused the person to acquire that disorder would cause disturbance. I'm not sure that the subsequent damage caused by the disorder (not the celestial) would continue to cause disturbance. >> I like this! "I shouldn't cause disturbance! I didn't hurt him. I only introduced the knife into his body! The knife is what hurt him!" I'm getting silly here, but you see what a munchkin player might try to pull off if you took this to the illogical conclusion. Reverend Brian A. Rogers BillionSix@aol.com ICQ# 22544590 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:20:24 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. At 8:01 PM -0500 9/20/00, Matt Trent wrote: >Jo Hart wrote: > >That's what I'd do. One of those nifty ones that only a human praying >can pull off. > >Matt Trent I assumed it was the relic staff, myself. - -- I have a broken hand, so spelling errors, capitalization errors, and extremely slow response times should be treated as precious things, not errors, because I'm not about to correct them. Neener. Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:50:29 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary Michael Walton wrote: > 1) Anyone who's not a believer would certainly become one when the > angel walked up and said, "You're working for me, now." Not necessarily. See Nicole's Soldier in IN. > 2) A person who would make a conscious choice to serve Heaven would > probably be at least nominally religious to start with. Athiests are > more likely to become Gray Soldiers. First of all, someone can believe in a "higher power" of some form without being religious. (Hence the polls, trumpeted by folks like Pat Robertson, indicating that over 90% of Americans believe in God, while he ignores the fact that for a substantial portion of people, that belief is very vague and not based on any particular theological beliefs, just a general sense that "There must be _something_...".) Secondly, there are a number of scenarios in which a human might find out about the War and choose to ally with the Host, without necessarily believing in the whole "Heaven/God/Angels" paradigm. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:58:55 +0000 From: Charles E Smith Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Light Agreed, although groups of Orphans of Light could exist. Depending on how freaky Dominic is in a given campaign, this could be anything from a Stone 'gang' or Laurencian order to a proscribed cult.<<< You know, I was just thinking about something. I'm not sure what canon is on this, but what if a Servitor of Light, unFallen, remained in Heaven working as the Angel of Redemption, trying to rescue his/her Fallen comrades and Superior? Think that would throw a curve into Lucifer's schemes? ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:04:28 +1000 From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. > > PS: On a totally unrelated note, if a artifact is > designed to explode whenever one Band comes within > range, and only that Band, and only affects members of > that Band within range, and never, ever can be made to > explode under any other circumstances, is this an > enhancement, a limitation, or just a special effect? Cool Idea...Balseraph Bomb!...actually I'm a Mercurian of Flow -*BOOM!* *cackle* Another Excellent Idea from Maurice.... Actually that makes me think (I'm as shocked as you are), would an aforementioned bomb trigger when a Balseraph has invoked his resonance, as his personal symphony (how I imagine the bomb would detect the Band) would be "I am a Mercurian of Flowers"....hmmm Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:11:11 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary David Edelstein wrote: > Secondly, there are a number of scenarios in which a human might find > out about the War and choose to ally with the Host, without necessarily > believing in the whole "Heaven/God/Angels" paradigm. And certainly without having to follow the teachings set out in, let alone believing in, the bible or another religious text. Cheers, Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:12:19 +1000 From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance What is a celestial confined someone and gave them access to heaps of food...but told them, "Dont eat the food its poisoned"...and by amazing coincedence it was. The human chose not to eat and starved or alternatively, the human ate (by his choice with warning about its consequence), and died. Disturbance then? Azrael > Summation: > > In general I would suggest the following guideline: for > death-disturbance to happen, the celestial must have put the human in a > situation(pickling, noose, pulled a trigger, caused a car accident) where > the human must have had no reasonable choice of action to escape the > impending doom - the escape route was nonobvious, they weren't expecting > the death, the escape required a skill the human didn't have, etc. > I hope this long-winded talk helped. I don't think it removes all > the greyness. Indeed, given the uncertain nature of Free Will in In > Nomine, and the possibility for any "source-of-disturbance" examination to > descend into First Cause, I don't think anything ever will. > > William > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:03:01 -0400 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: IN> Choir8 Webpage Hey everybody, Just letting you all know that after much time and effort, the Choir8 Webpage is finally up and in working condition. www.100megsfree.com/choir8 "What is Choir8?" you ask. Choir8 is an online egroup dedicated to the creating of a netbook on the Grigori & their Children, filling in the gaps on In Nomine's most mysterious faction. At this point, we're looking for comments, ideas, suggestions, and people to join us. If you want to write something that's Grigori related, send it my way and I'll post it up there. Eventually, when there's enough of this stuff, it'll all get organized into chapters and what not, but that's a ways in the future. Thanks. Later. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:04:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Semi-delirious thought Michael Walton wrote: > Ah, don't be so eurocentric. ;> Ancestor worship is alive and > well in many parts of the world (especially Africa). The Dream > Shades/Gods that you describe could thrive quite well in > Madagascar -- and the Purity Crusade could've missed them > altogether simply by mistaking them for ordinary Dream Shades. Also Japan and China, no? But the topic was pre-Adamite humans. I doubt that many of them are being revered individually as ancestors -- not because they aren't ancestors but because we don't know any individuals among them. If they are being revered, it's under their divine identities. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:05:53 GMT From: "Daniel Gallagher" Subject: IN> Word Bounds - their Superiors and their Chiors Ok, I have a few Ideas for some really minor wordbound celestials, but I can't come up with some of the Chiors and Superiors. Sugestions would be apreciated. Demon of Saying The Wrong Thing In Spanish - Kobal - ??? Angel Of Bouncers - Zadkiel or Dominic - Chreub Demon of Instagation - Malaphas - ??? Demon of The Holy Inquasition - ??? - ??? Demon of Barfights - ??? - ??? Angel of Cafanated Bevrages - ??? - Ofinate Demon of People With Really Big Hats or Afros Who Always Seem To Sit Right In Front Of You At The Theater _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:29:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. At 4:59 PM -0700 9/20/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >I was watching that animated flick Prince of Egypt, >see, and they've just done the parting of the Red Sea. (Nice flick, BTW. Made me go look it up in my Bible. I like the animated version better...*) >If anyone can see a not-Divine-Interventional way to >duplicate the trick (that doesn't assume one has >access to 10,000 Essence), I'd for one would be >fascinated to hear it. :) Help from some of Oannes' old Servitors? >PS: On a totally unrelated note, if a artifact is >designed to explode whenever one Band comes within >range, and only that Band, and only affects members of >that Band within range, and never, ever can be made to >explode under any other circumstances, is this an >enhancement, a limitation, or just a special effect? Enhancement, methinks. * (Yes, I _am_ a heathen infidel.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:38:59 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance At 6:09 PM -0400 9/20/00, Galen Silversmith wrote: >> Return-Path: emccoy@nh.ultranet.com >> At 8:41 PM +0100 9/20/00, Omentide wrote: >> >At 10:57 20/09/00 -0400, you wrote: >> >>This _suggests_ that a confined human, starving/thirsting to death >> >>will _not_ cause disturbance, or at least not much, because the >> >>damage is not administered all at once, and is more "subtle" than, >> >>say, vehicular homicide. >> > >> >Might another way of looking at it be that the celestial didn't 'kill' the >> >mortal, starvation, pickling, thirst, whatever 'killed' the mortal? >> >> What about suffocation from hanging a mortal from a noose? >> >> (No, seriously, explore this. O:> ) > >A 'proper' hanging is one which breaks the neck of the intended. Clean >snap, its all over. Which doesn't always work, from what I recall from one of my books -- sometimes the fall isn't just right, and the wretch does, indeed, suffocate to death over the course of several minutes. (Sometimes it actually jerks the head right _off_, too... Amazing what one can research from the Howdunit books... Oh, you got that too.) Which is one reason why death by hanging is rarely used as a capital punishment these days. (Instead, there's firing squads (rare, IIRC), electric chairs, and lethal injection -- all of which may or may not be more humane, but generally have fewer variables than the art of tying the noose right so that the knot will knock the person out and help snap the neck, the fall be just right, the weight of the victim not be enough to yank the head _off_...) Still, that doesn't answer the question: what would be the difference from a demon hoisting a human into the air, via the noose around said mortal's neck, and letting the poor wretch hang there until dead -- and locking a human in an air-tight room and allowing the mortal to suffocate there? >Regardless, the question is can the symphony tell what a celestials intent >is? I wouldn't think so. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:26:11 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance Non canon interpretation from Ashley. I tend to use this for my games, on the whole it works A disturbance is caused by celestial action in the corporeal realm (this assumes a game set in thecorporeal) which is not part of the Role of that celestial. Therefore whatever action any celestial takes in the corporeal realm generates disturbance. Sticking a knife in a human generates a lot of disturbance. Giving a human a disease generates disturbance, locking a human in a cell can do the same. Humans using Celestial powers generate a small amount of noise, not because they are human but that they are using Celestial abilities (songs, attunements etc). Locking the same human in a cell with the intent of allowing them to starve to death generates more disturbance, not because the symphony knows, but because the celestial knows the intent and this intent echoes through the symphony. Of course a Celestial with a role of Gaoler would not generate disturbance for locking a prisoner in his or her cell overnight even though being locked up tends to cause emotial damage. The Role would prevent this. The same celestial locking a man up in a cell with the intent of never letting him out and allowing him to starve to death would. This disturbance happens at the time of the action. There is no more disturbance when the human dies other than the background echo of a human death. Same goes for the disease. At the point of giving the human a disease the disturbance is gererated, the celestial action has caused harm. The level of disturbance would vary depending on the disease. Not much for a cold, a great deal for Anthrax. Again no great disturbance occurs when or if the human dies of the disease, secondary infection, or complications. The bottom line here is that major disturbance is as a result of Celestial action when that action takes place. The implications of that action in the fullness of time do not create major disturbance. Pulling a trigger or pressing the button to fire a missile with intent to harm generates disturbance, and if the intent is to kill they generate a great deal of disturbance. Ok, now this can be got around with Role. This is why Role is so important. The consquences of Celestial action in the longer term can be dealt with in other ways. Discord or Dissonance are useful here. A Malakite locks up a human for some perfectly good reason - limited disturbance. The Malakite forgets about the human - the human dies - discord or dissonance. Not even Role gets around this. The initial noise might alert other celestials who will then investigate and could find out something. The possibilities here are almost endless. A superior or Superior might be annoyed at the waste of a human life (goes for most DP's as well as AA's) Just my thoughts...... Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:31:40 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Word Bounds - their Superiors and their Chiors From: "Daniel Gallagher" > Ok, I have a few Ideas for some really minor wordbound celestials, but I > can't come up with some of the Chiors and Superiors. Sugestions would be > apreciated. I'll add my suggestions, in that case. ;) Demon of Saying The Wrong Thing In Spanish - Kobal - Calabite I thought Impudite at first, but then it occurred to me that this is just another form of destruction, one that a subtle Calabite would find especially funny. Angel Of Bouncers - Zadkiel - Chreub Zadkiel, as AA of Protection, was a no-bnrainer choice on this one. Demon of Instagation - Malaphas - Haballite Since part of Instigation would be playing upon a target's emotions and paranoias, I can't think of any Band better-suited to this than a Haballite. The only one that comes close would be Lilim, IMO. Demon of The Holy Inquasition - Malphas - Haballite For the same reason that I saw a Haballite as the one above, I chose them here. Demon of Barfights - Baal - Calabite Barfights, at least in the movie, always involve LOTS of incidental destruction, which makes a Calabite the obvious choice for me. And Baal as Prince of The War seemed a natural choice. Angel of Cafanated Bevrages - Eli - Ofinate No reason aside from the "Cool" factor, I must admit. Demon of People With Really Big Hats or Afros Who Always Seem To Sit Right In Front Of You At The Theater It'd have to be a Haballite of Nybbas, I'd think. Those people annoy the hell out of me, and when you can't see the movie you wind up having to watch it again, now don't you? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:42:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:23:23 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> It would be funny if it wasn't so scary >>Tim Groth wrote: >> >> http://www.dcmcnamara.com/ and >> http://www.godhatesfags.com >Phelps' website is well-known. Phelps is Evil in a >way that even Jack Chick is not. > >The first, though, strikes me as fishy; it's so over->the-top as to make me suspect a parody. I'd agree, although I kind of like the idea that there's at least one person out there who I can reliably cause to have an attack of apoplexy simply by meeting. :) I must remember to add him to the "Gets an anonymous copy of IN" - the list keeps growing and growing - "when funds permit." A shame that there's no English translation of the French game, though: it'd freak him out even more, from what I've gathered*. Moe *I've asked this before, but I'm still too fragmented from my cold to remember the answer: anybody know of a US vendor for INS/MV? ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:42:48 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance > I hope this long-winded talk helped. I don't think it removes all >the greyness. Indeed, given the uncertain nature of Free Will in In >Nomine, and the possibility for any "source-of-disturbance" examination to >descend into First Cause, I don't think anything ever will. Sorry I snipped most of this. The major problem I have with this is that you describe disturbance as 'belonging to' or 'happening to' a specific individual celestial. As if disturbance was, in some way, like dissonance or discord. I don't see it like that. Disturbance is a 'bum note' in the symphony, not in the individual. The symphony (the way I see it) does not 'judge', is no more on the side of good than it is of evil and no more on the side of heaven than it is of hell. The symphony 'just is'. That's why I don't think disturbance is related to intent (though dissonance and discord can be). That's why I don't think it's related to consequences of actions when those consequences are distant in time. Disturbance, the way I see it, is a result of 'out of plane' activity. Celestials are made to have effect on the celestial plane. When they act on the corporeal plane, they cause disturbance. So, why does the death of a mortal cause so much disturbance if, and only if, it's caused by a celestial being? I don't know. I didn't write canon. I guess it's just a game mechanic to stop munchkins from using celestial powers to kill mortals in an indiscriminate manner. Please note, my partner (who posts from the same address) and I are having a minor disagreement over this one. Hilary Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:45:26 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. - --On Thursday, September 21, 2000 12:29 PM -0400 Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > * (Yes, I _am_ a heathen infidel.) Only if you don't like Bob and Larry. Then we start worrying. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation (The poor tomato. He can't dance.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:47:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Semi-delirious thought Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:12:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Semi-delirious thought >For that matter, some pre-Adamite shades might have >been Ethereal gods. They'd have had to evade Uriel, >and would probably be low in power, lacking >worshippers, but unlike many purely Ethereal spirits, >they wouldn't need belief or worship to continue >existing, and so would be more rugged in that sense. Heh. Couple that with the "ethereal Yawheh" theory, and you have an excellent reason why God's up in the Higher Heavens and never, ever comes down. He's afraid that some pre-Adamite dreamshade's gonna eventuall come on through to his final reward, look up blearily at the Almighty, and say, "Bill? Is that you?" ;) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:56:35 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. > "How the _hell_ did a not-even-Word-bound manage to > pull that off? Khalid, Archangel of Faith _might_ > have been able to do it. But Khalid, Elohite Servitor > of Purity? No way, Jose." I am starting a pre-Fall game at 500,000 BCE, and one of the playes is an angel with a few old songs. One of his songs is the Song of Storms, which allows the angel to do anything from make the air damp to summoning a fully-fledged blizzard storm in the middle of July. I'm sure there's a suitably old and rare and secret song that does what Khalid wanted. And Khalid serves Purity. Let's separate the earth from the water. It was a high-level application of the Song of Purity. :-) > Moe Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:57:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> A suggestion for yet another massive, blissfully unprofitable, fan endeavour Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:01:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Semi-delirious thought >>- --- Maurice Lane wrote: >> No, I am _not_ thinking of writing up a Saint >> of Light. Admittedly, the major reason why I'm not >> thinking of writing it is because I'm getting over a >> cold, and haven't been able to write anything >> coherent for three days, but still... :) > Hmmm... I believe "Saint of Light" is Helltongue > for "priority target." Which reminds me of ANOTHER thought (I'm making up for lost time, here): anyone give any thought to mocking up a semi-semi-official dictionary* of common Angelic and Helltongue words? I mean, we've got Esperanto, and Quenya, and for God's sake Klingon, so how could this be any less bizarre? :) Moegiel Kyriotate of Destiny in Service to Stone ("Knock chip of shoulder. Ogiel dare you. Oh, good. Hulk Smash.") *Not canonical or even might-be-canonical-if-we-ever-get-the-green-light-someday-Real-Soon-Now: just a little project for all you linguistic ... shall we say, 'enthusiasts' ... out there. ;) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:08:53 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance - --On Thursday, September 21, 2000 6:42 PM +0100 Omentide wrote: > > So, why does the death of a mortal cause so much disturbance if, > and only if, it's caused by a celestial being? I don't know. I > didn't write canon. I guess it's just a game mechanic to stop > munchkins from using celestial powers to kill mortals in an > indiscriminate manner. > And so is the current discussion. Rather than adhering to the spirit of the thing, munchkins look at this as simply having to indiscriminately kill mortals in a more creative way. It's loosely related to the ancient (by most kids' standards) philosophical debate over whether a robot with an Asimov Circuit would be able to kill someone by dropping a brick on them. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation (What are you doing, Dave?) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:16:53 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance >What is a celestial confined someone and gave them access to heaps of >food...but told them, "Dont eat the food its poisoned"...and by amazing >coincedence it was. > >The human chose not to eat and starved or alternatively, the human ate (by >his choice with warning about its consequence), and died. > >Disturbance then? > >Azrael Yes. Regardless of the human's will in the matter, they had no reasonable way to escape the death. Their free will was as constrained as if the celestial had merely tied them up and fired a gun at them. They will die as a consequence of any choice they make... thus the responsibility for the death is the celestial's, not the human's. Human free will, although a miracle of itself by a scientist's standards, is accepted by the Symphony as much as any physical law. If the human knew a way out, and *chose* not to take it, then no disturbance is generated because the Symphony adjusts. Otherwise, yes, because it's a death that violates both physical law(by the celestial's presence and action) and human free will(by forcefully overriding it). Because the Symphony is built in such a way that human free will trumps many celestial powers, I would consider free will to be the ultimate absolver for celestials. Once a human makes a choice, the responsibility for the consequences is on him alone. William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:23:45 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: IN> Coming off of Disturbance Reading the discussion about disturbance, I wondered... maybe an angel(very probably a Seraph or an Elohite) could make a case that God doesn't really want angels, demons, or ethereals on the corporeal plane at all! Now, a counter-argument could be made that the very existence of Vessels and Roles means that God does actually want celestials on the corporeal plane, just under strict limits so that they don't interfere with human free will. However, a group of angels (perhaps a minor Superior, or a high-level Word-bound who can grant these abilities) might create an arrangement like this: Attunement Cause no disturbance entering or leaving any Realm or section thereof. Cause no disturbance going celestial. Additionally, gain +2 to any Role. If the celestial avoids spending Essence while in the corporeal realm, uses no Songs, does not switch vessels, and destroys or kills only demons and ethereals(and their artifacts), he can avoid creating disturbance entirely! Besides the obvious advantages to keeping Symphonically quiet, this is a good thing for that particular angel because of the necessarily associated Dissonance condition. Dissonance For every action which causes disturbance, roll 3d6. If roll is under the number of notes sounded(including cumulative echoes), or an Infernal Intervention is rolled, a note of Dissonance is gained. Oh, and if a tree falls in the forest when no one's around to hear it, quantum mechanics tells us it only potentially made a noise - that is, if the angel causes mental disturbance and no Grigori is around to hear it, they're okay. If one did, then roll. These angels would prefer spending their time off of Earth entirely. They would request jobs in Heaven, or in the Ethereal realm. A very brave few would train for quick strikes on Hell - attack from a Tether or by following a demon back to its Heart; do some damage, maybe even a surgically planned specific target near a known Tether or Heart storage area; then quickly reascend to Heaven, where reinforcements are waiting just in case some demons try to follow them up. In the corporeal realm, they tend to live high-level Roles despite their immediate bonus anyway. They would often believe that the best way to save human souls is by *example,* and to be a useful example it must be an example people can follow themselves. Their weapons for fighting demons are mostly mundane... but used effectively. Sometimes, a demon may not even know that it was anything other than a lucky, perceptive human who offed their latest vessel. Admittedly, they think their way is *better* than that of other angels, who always seem a bit ham-handed about the whole affair - but they're not a pain about it. After all, they do most things quietly. Plus, when on Earth they tend to store up useful Essence that they'll gladly donate to another angel, and not even Dominic can object to an angel who's just trying to do his job quietly, as he thinks God wills it. Song notes: Some Songs which are safe(i.e., produce Disturbance of 3 or less, 111 being of course a Divine Intervention which nullifies the dissonance) include Numinous Corpus, Tongues, Light with less than 3 Essence spent, Dreams(Corporeal and Etheral) if only one dreamer is affected, and Harmony if only the performer and at most one other person is affected. Of course, if there's already disturbance in the area these songs are no longer safe, and there's always the chance of an Infernal Intervention on the roll, which automatically generates the Dissonance. Note that this is not an Infernal Interention on the roll required by the Dissonance itself. *reread* This sounds, in some ways, very much like the Grigori. But there's a bit of a difference - for one thing, if one's Superior allows it, this can be an organization one can choose to join, or be invited to join as an honor if one's philosophies are already leaning in this direction. Now all that's left is a cool name for the lot of them... ;^) William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:25:41 -0700 From: "Sean McCarthy" Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance > --On Thursday, September 21, 2000 6:42 PM +0100 Omentide > wrote: > > > > > So, why does the death of a mortal cause so much disturbance if, > > and only if, it's caused by a celestial being? I don't know. I > > didn't write canon. I guess it's just a game mechanic to stop > > munchkins from using celestial powers to kill mortals in an > > indiscriminate manner. > > > > And so is the current discussion. Rather than adhering to the > spirit of the thing, munchkins look at this as simply having to > indiscriminately kill mortals in a more creative way. It's loosely > related to the ancient (by most kids' standards) philosophical debate > over whether a robot with an Asimov Circuit would be able to kill > someone by dropping a brick on them. Wasn't this addressed in a story where the 'or through inaction, allow..." clause had been removed from certain robots? Sean (ObIN: What if the Three laws, possibly with the addition of the Zero Law, were taken as Oaths by a Malakite? Except, I'm guessing, we would have to modify the obedience condition to point at their superiors in the hierarchy.) _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:55:59 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. At 1:45 PM -0400 9/21/00, Marc Bowden wrote: >--On Thursday, September 21, 2000 12:29 PM -0400 Elizabeth McCoy > wrote: > >> * (Yes, I _am_ a heathen infidel.) > > Only if you don't like Bob and Larry. Then we start worrying. Bob & Larry? I presume that second name is not a nickname for the Lord Commander of the Host...? - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:42:01 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Light >Agreed, although groups of Orphans of Light could >exist. Depending on how freaky Dominic is in a given >campaign, this could be anything from a Stone 'gang' >or Laurencian order to a proscribed cult.<<< > >You know, I was just thinking about something. I'm not sure what canon is >on this, but what if a Servitor of Light, unFallen, remained in Heaven >working as the Angel of Redemption, trying to rescue his/her Fallen >comrades and Superior? Think that would throw a curve into Lucifer's >schemes? Heh... I've been spending the past month or so writing up an Angel of Redemption, and I'm maybe halfway through, so allow me to let a bit of the cat out of the bag... even an Archangel of Redemption only has finite resources, and if your Word is Redemption there are a lot of places you can spend your servants' time and effort better than in trying to redeem Lucifer. Demons, yes. Fallen angels, you bet. Humans on the wrong track in life, absolutely. Lucifer, he'd lead you a merry old dance that ends up with you Falling, your Servitors Outcast, and the Symphony worse off than when you started. Wanna know who I think the Archangel of Redemption would have originally served? Try Lilith... William who's probably gotta step up the pace on writing the piece now ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:48:10 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Light > cat out of the bag... even an Archangel of Redemption only has finite > spend your servants' time and effort better than in trying to redeem > Lucifer. Demons, yes. Fallen angels, you bet. Humans on the wrong track > in life, absolutely. Lucifer, he'd lead you a merry old dance that ends up > with you Falling, your Servitors Outcast, and the Symphony worse off than > when you started. http://www.sinfest.net/comics/sf20000921.gif Sinfest is awesome. > William Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:58:09 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. Marc Bowden wrote: > Only if you don't like Bob and Larry. Then we start worrying. Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Bob & Larry? I presume that second name is not a nickname for the > Lord Commander of the Host...? I believe he's referring to Bob the Tomato and Larry the Cucumber, the hosts of "VeggieTales," a series of Christian kid-videos. (His sig contained a quote from "The Song of the Cucumber.") My daughter is a fan. I am too. Their credits include: "Josh and the Big Wall" -- Larry plays Joshua at the battle of Jericho, fought by French peas throwing slushies down at the marching Israelite vegetables. "Rack, Shack, and Benny" -- The Three Hebrew Children as roast vegetables, thrown into the firey furnace for not bowing down to a ninety-foot chocolate bunny. "Tales from the Crisper" -- On why not to be scared of stuff on TV, even when the celery stalks at midnight. Upcoming releases include the tale of Esther, played by an asparagus. Imagine that Novalis redeemed some Media demons. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:04:48 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> It's official. I have IN permanently hardwired into my brain. Oh, and to see images from "VeggieTales," go to http://www.bigidea.com or http://www.veggietales.com Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:10:01 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance >The major problem I have with this is that you describe disturbance as >'belonging to' or 'happening to' a specific individual celestial. As if >disturbance was, in some way, like dissonance or discord. Sorry, let me be a bit more specific. Some GMs play with "sticky" dissonance, where the dissonance, and its resulting echoes, are in fact centered on the celestial that caused it. If not, then just forget that part and focus on the disturbance being created at the point of action. >That's why I don't think disturbance is related to intent (though >dissonance and discord can be). That's why I don't think it's related to >consequences of actions when those consequences are distant in >time. Disturbance, the way I see it, is a result of 'out of plane' >activity. Celestials are made to have effect on the celestial plane. When >they act on the corporeal plane, they cause disturbance. > >So, why does the death of a mortal cause so much disturbance if, and only >if, it's caused by a celestial being? I don't know. I didn't write >canon. I guess it's just a game mechanic to stop munchkins from using >celestial powers to kill mortals in an indiscriminate manner. What you say may very well be the original reason it was inserted. In-game, I'd say the death of a mortal causes disturbance because the corporeal Symphony is constructed to be a place for humans to exercise free will. When a human's free will is overridden and their soul unwillingly leaves the corporeal realm for Heaven or Hell, that's a significant effect directly caused by a celestial, which isn't the way the corporeal Symphony, with its insistence on physical law as its fundamental reality, is supposed to work. >Please note, my partner (who posts from the same address) and I are having >a minor disagreement over this one. I don't think the disagreements ever really will stop... not that it's CDaU or anything, but it's a notion highly abstracted from corporeal game mechanics and open to much interpretation. >Hilary > >Ashley and Hilary >omentide.omentide@virgin.net >http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide William ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1827 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.