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in_nomine-digest     Saturday, September 30 2000     Volume 01 : Number 1835



In this digest:

   Re: IN> No books with me, curse it...
   Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)
   Re: IN> No books with me, curse it...
   Re: IN> No books with me, curse it...
   Re: IN> No books with me, curse it...
   Re:  IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)
   Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)
   Re:  IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)
   Re:  IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)
   Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)
   Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your 	 attention)
   Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your 	 attention)
   Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your 	 	 attention)
   Future IN (was Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel)
   Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)
   Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)
   Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)
   Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)
   IN> Odd, and a bit disconcerting.
   Re: IN> Vessels
   Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)
   Re: IN> Odd, and a bit disconcerting.
   IN> Artifact Question
   Re: IN> Artifact Question
   Re: IN> Artifact Question
   Re: IN> Artifact Question
   IN> Dream Artifact
   Re: IN> Artifact Question
   Re: IN> Artifact Question
   Re: IN> No books with me, curse it...
   Re: IN> No books with me, curse it...
   Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)
   Re: IN> No books with me, curse it...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:08:27 -0500
From: "Cthulhu" <Cthulhu@vorlonempire.com>
Subject: Re: IN> No books with me, curse it...

Laurent wrote:
>Oh. I don't have the IPG, which explains my ignorance. I rest my case,
>though I won't use this rule myself (don't like it).
>Thanks for the info!

That was only an IMHO on the IPG (what a great line), so it may not be
totally accurate. Check for yourself if you get a chance.

*snooze*

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:01:06 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)

Good Songs.  Would people be interested in a re-post of 
Othniel, Angel of Time, and his Songs, for purposes of 
comparison?

Earl

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:39:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: Benjamin Acosta <ben@HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Re: IN> No books with me, curse it...

 
> > I think if Vapula ever did try out some Calabim, he's give them an
> > attunement 
> > similar to what Andrealphus gives his Habbalah, and let them choke
> > back their 
> > resonance without Discord.
> 
>   Naaah... canon doesn't like Superiors (except those with opposing
> Words) duplicating each other's Attunements.  Vappie is more likely to
> grant his theoretical Calabim the ability to control their entropic
> auras, thereby only breaking things when they want to.

If I were Vappie and was considering having Calabim servitors I'd try to
create an attunement that "reverses the polarity" on their attunement,
thus making them able to fix things.  It certainly fits with the "if I can
take it apart I can put back together" school of Technology.

Ben, Elohite of Eli
Angel of Neat Ideas
  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:49:21 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>
Subject: Re: IN> No books with me, curse it...

Benjamin Acosta wrote:

> If I were Vappie and was considering having Calabim servitors 
> I'd try to create an attunement that "reverses the polarity" on 
> their attunement, thus making them able to fix things.  It 
> certainly fits with the "if I can take it apart I can put back 
> together" school of Technology.

Or use them for the famous "testing to destruction," or things 
like dissection and vivisection.

Or make them heavily ethereal and have them destroy ideas by 
criticism and analysis -- demons of nitpicking.  (They'd look 
just as scruffy as other Calabim, but in a weedier, nerdier vein.)

But maybe the most natural use for Vapulan Calabim would be for 
counter-measures, as great big gremlins.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:06:54 -0500
From: "Erich S. Arendall" <sprite@insync.net>
Subject: Re: IN> No books with me, curse it...

> > If I were Vappie and was considering having Calabim servitors
> > I'd try to create an attunement that "reverses the polarity" on
> > their attunement, thus making them able to fix things.  It
> > certainly fits with the "if I can take it apart I can put back
> > together" school of Technology.

Hmmm... This has got my creative juices going (no.. have.. too... many
projects already.. must...stop). And I might have missed it when I moved,
but has the minor/choir band list come up with the name Vapula yet?

I have this urge to work on BAND NAME: The Cobblers. :)

<!-- Erich S. Arendall
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the Best Time for GMs
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"Anybody remotely interesting is mad, in some way or another."
- -The Doctor, Doctor Who

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:14:20 +0000
From: Charles E Smith <edenesque@juno.com>
Subject: Re:  IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)

Celestial - This Song permits the user to travel to
the past (no one has ever successfully returned from a
visit to the future). For some reason, the farthest
anyone can travel back is exactly 1000 years ... and
that's 1000 thousand years from the user's ultimate
temporal origin. Use the table above to determine
Essence cost; the base roll is only -1 for each
doubling of Essence. Also note that use of this Song
is strictly one-way: getting back to the present has
to be done the old-fashioned way. This is less of an
issue for celestials, of course, seeing as they're
immortal.<<<

You know, I was just thinking about something. This Song would enable
travel back 1000 years, right? Now, as I recall (not that I have the
books yet but what I gleamed from the online IN sites), there was a lot
of activity back around 1000 C.E. I just could just see Yves creating
some young angel this year in 2000, arming him or her with the Celestial
Song of Time, and then ordering them to travel back to....let's say 1008
C.E. when Raphael, the Archangel of Knowledge, gave her life against the
then-Prince of Secrets. It might make an interesting campaign, having
this young angel of Destiny trying to go back in time and save Raphael
(to speak nothing of the disturbance it would cause in the present...). 

Just another wacky idea. :)

Charles.
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:42:49 GMT
From: "Daniel Gallagher" <yoshimato@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)

>Corporeal (Song of Stasis) - This Song permits the
>caster to temporarily isolate someone or something (up
>to 200 lbs.) on the corporeal plane from the flow of
>Time.

Good songs, I'd up the limit to 350lbs for the corporeal one though. other 
than that great.



Daniel Gallagher
Archangel of Slackers
"The world is... um, pass the doritos"
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:53:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Richard Gant <gantr@NKU.EDU>
Subject: Re:  IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)

On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Charles E Smith wrote:

> You know, I was just thinking about something. This Song would enable
> travel back 1000 years, right? Now, as I recall (not that I have the
> books yet but what I gleamed from the online IN sites), there was a lot
> of activity back around 1000 C.E. I just could just see Yves creating
> some young angel this year in 2000, arming him or her with the Celestial
> Song of Time, and then ordering them to travel back to....let's say 1008
> C.E. when Raphael, the Archangel of Knowledge, gave her life against the
> then-Prince of Secrets. It might make an interesting campaign, having
> this young angel of Destiny trying to go back in time and save Raphael
> (to speak nothing of the disturbance it would cause in the present...). 

It would be interesting (as are the various Songs that produced this), but
it wouldn't work in my campaign.

I have Angels and Demons existing in Eternity, not time.  Celestials
aren't bound by time or distance, but they are bound by causality.  For a 
Celestial, travelling from AD 2000 to 5000 BC is no more difficult than
travelling from Pittsburg to Nagasaki.

Causality is the catch.  No Celestial may directly involve himself in a
given event more than once.  If Michael intervenes at Omaha Beach during
D-Day, he cannot ever intervene there directly again.  He can still be
summoned to that location and moment by his Servitors, but he can no
longer take any direct action.

Disturbance creates a second catch.  The more Disturbance generated in a
specific location at a specific time, the harder it is to perceive that
location at that time.  This is why Archangels and Demon Princes are so
down on Disturbance;  it obscures everything.

Richard Gant
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto:
     http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/
The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site:
     http://returners.simplenet.com/
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:06:34 -0600
From: Tim Groth <Timothy.Groth@colorado.edu>
Subject: Re:  IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)

>C.E. when Raphael, the Archangel of Knowledge, gave her life against the
>then-Prince of Secrets. It might make an interesting campaign, having
>this young angel of Destiny trying to go back in time and save Raphael
>(to speak nothing of the disturbance it would cause in the present...).


One minor thing, Raphael died to kill Legion, Prince of Corruption. 
But it would be cool to have a campaign where one went back to try to 
save Raphael.  Especially since you could use Legion in the game 
without trying to explain where he came from.  And if you really mess 
up the mission Legion might survive, and then there's all sorts of 
fun.

Or better yet Legion learns the Song and projects part of himself 
back in time as a safety net.  Must fine players, must inflict 
horribly cruel game on them.
- -- 


Timothy, Angel of Rambling
Ofanite of Creation
ArchRival of Mathus
If you have time to kill, why not kill it at 
http://ucsub.Colorado.edu/~grothtp/In.html 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:13:33 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)

Tim Groth wrote:

> And if you really mess
> up the mission Legion might survive, and then there's all sorts of
> fun.

This brings up the fundamental choice you have to make whenever 
you introduce time travel: Is the past mutable or not?
Mutable is fun, but hard to keep straight, and can require a LOT 
of fast thinking on your feet.

Immutable history still allows for fun time-travel.  I speak 
from experience (RPG experience, anyway).  Immutability means 
that if you try to do something that would change history, you 
WILL fail. (In our game, we call this effect "timelock.")  It 
happens whether or not you mean to change history.  Our characters 
have developed the habit of looking for odd runs of failure and 
bad luck, then trying to figure out the event we have to leave 
alone.

By the way, immutable history could still save both Raphael and 
Legion.  We only know that, at the end of the battle, both are 
gone.  If time-traveling servitors of Yves and Jean (or Kronos 
and Vapula) manage to sneak Raphael's (Legion's) last handful 
of Forces off the battlefield, without attracting attention, 
then there's no *observable* change to history.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:40:26 -0600
From: Tim Groth <Timothy.Groth@colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your 	 attention)

>This brings up the fundamental choice you have to make whenever
>you introduce time travel: Is the past mutable or not?
>Mutable is fun, but hard to keep straight, and can require a LOT
>of fast thinking on your feet.


I prefer mutable history usually, but with lots of ripples being sent 
out from minor changes.  The farther back you go the more your mere 
presence causes changes.  I haven't done any time travel in IN yet, 
but I think it would be fun.  Especially with disturbance just coming 
out of nowhere as a result of the celestials presence.

Also about immutable history I never liked the surface only 
requirement.  Immutable is immutable.  If you can change things as 
long as they're within certain limits then its resistant history, but 
not immutable.
- -- 


Timothy, Angel of Rambling
Ofanite of Creation
ArchRival of Mathus
If you have time to kill, why not kill it at 
http://ucsub.Colorado.edu/~grothtp/In.html 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:40:53 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your 	 attention)

Tim Groth wrote:

> Also about immutable history I never liked the surface only
> requirement.  Immutable is immutable.  If you can change things as
> long as they're within certain limits then its resistant history, 
> but not immutable.

Oh, sure, it's immutable.  In the example given, it was always 
the case that Raphael (or Legion) was rescued by time travelers.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:05:59 -0600
From: Tim Groth <Timothy.Groth@colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your 	 	 attention)

>Oh, sure, it's immutable.  In the example given, it was always
>the case that Raphael (or Legion) was rescued by time travelers.

So you're THAT kind of GM are you.
- -- 


Timothy, Angel of Rambling
Ofanite of Creation
ArchRival of Mathus
If you have time to kill, why not kill it at 
http://ucsub.Colorado.edu/~grothtp/In.html 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:07:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: ydobyns@princeton.edu
Subject: Future IN (was Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel)

Talk of time-travel Songs brought to mind an idea that's been rattling
around since I recently got involved in a Shadowrun game. Has anyone tried
running IN in a science-fictional, medium-distant future, dystopian or
otherwise? Or has the sense of looming Apocalypse made it too difficult to
think about what angels and demons might be up to, 50-100 years down the
road?

York Dobyns           ydobyns@princeton.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:24:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Maurice Lane <moelane_1999@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:41:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" <pkitty@brainpuke.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see
that got your 
attention)

>These are VERY well done. Obviously these would need
>a flaming feather the size of a Volvo next to them if
>they were in the LC, but they're actually well
>balanced for Secret Songs.

>My only complaint is that the Ethereal version is too
>much like the same song of Nemesis (?)... the other
>song that gives you danger sense. I would make it
>more like the ability to look into the past, like 
>postcognition.

Which is, alas, covered by the Corporeal Song of
Memory, more or less.  I actually did try
postcognition/psychometry first, but this version is
more useful to a time traveller.

>Also, I wouldn't have the Ethereal version be
>commonly available at all!
>That makes it MUCH more likely that someone could
>research the related songs.

That's actually part of the idea.  Because the
Ethereal and Corporeal Songs don't _seem_ similar, and
the Ethereal appears to be a variation of another
Song, the average celestial wouldn't find either
particularly noteworthy.  Someone who _did_, and
managed to penetrate the secret, is usually the sort
of investigator Yves and Kronos wants working in their
temporal agencies anyway.  Assuming that the
investigator actually survives the discovery process,
of course.  :)

While I've got the floor, I suppose that I should
bring up my major problem with doing time travel in IN
anyway (and it's one that's kept the article
half-written):  altering the past.  I wanted to set up
a scenario where the past could be altered (no
temporal alteration isn't as much fun when your
protagonists are immortals who already know many of
the nagging historical mysteries humans find
fascinating), but I'm adamant against violating canon,
particularly the bit about reversing someone's Fate or
Destiny.  

This means that the timeline is extraordinarily
stable: for example, no matter what the PCs do, there
_will_ be an Adolf Hitler, and he _will_ achieve his
Fate by slaughtering millions.  Contrariwise, nothing
anyone will do can eliminate George Washington
Carver's or his namesake's achievements.  Trying to
set up a world where the PCs could actually _do_
anything more active than the "go back and hide a
weapons cache for just the moment when we need it" is
a headache.

So, any suggestions?  :)

Moe

=====
In Nomine stuff:
http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html
Everything else (not that there is, right now): 
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Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:40:51 -0500
From: "Erich S. Arendall" <sprite@insync.net>
Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)

Moe said:

> Trying to
> set up a world where the PCs could actually _do_
> anything more active than the "go back and hide a
> weapons cache for just the moment when we need it" is
> a headache.

Wow! Shades of Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure!
"I know how we'll get into the office - when we're done here we'll just
steal your dad's keys and go back in time before we're done and put them
under this rock!"

...Which is something I would *never* allow in-game. Talk about giving your
players a major advantage (outside of their inherent celestial advantages)
in a physical confrontation.  And just where did that Seraph of War get a
hold of a Rapid-Firing Plasma Lazer, anyways?

<!-- Erich S. Arendall
<!-- Demon of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and
the Best Time for GMs
<!-- Impudite of The Game
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<!-- witkiller@hotmail.com

"My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and
you don't like my tie."
- -The Doctor, Doctor Who

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:56:38 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)

Maurice Lane wrote:

> So, any suggestions?  :)

"We need trilobite eggs."
"Trilobites are extinct."

Interesting variations on trilobites could include pre-Adamite 
humans, un-Outcast Grigori, So-and-so before she became a 
Malakite, So-and-so before he redeemed/fell/died. Since some of 
these have to be returned to fulfill their histories, a tragic 
dimension is added.


"I'd need to be twenty different places at once! Even an Archangel
would have a hard time doing that!"
"We here in Yves' Clocktower call that the Temporal Back-Stitch."


"My God! He's been blown to bloody shreds!"
"*Someone* has been blown to bloody shreds. Maybe we can pick who."


"I need to know how events X, Y, and Z turn out, in the next week.
And I need to know *now*."
"You aren't going to try to *change* how they come out, are you?"
"No, I just need to know what to expect."
"Okay, then."


Earl

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:00:00 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)

Erich S. Arendall wrote:

> Wow! Shades of Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure!
> "I know how we'll get into the office - when we're done here we'll 
> just steal your dad's keys and go back in time before we're done 
> and put them under this rock!"
> 
> ...Which is something I would *never* allow in-game.

Our GM certainly didn't, when we were stranded without our 
time machine in the middle of a desert. "I know! Once we get back, 
we'll leave a cache of supplies for ourselves over that next dune!"
No, we didn't.  This was years before Bill & Ted, by the way, so 
that we all squealed with glee when we saw the gambit made in the 
movie.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:04:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Maurice Lane <moelane_1999@yahoo.com>
Subject: IN> Odd, and a bit disconcerting.

So I'm doing my job (real estate lease administration,
btw:  amazing how useful the library education turned
out.  Not to mention considerably more lucrative), and
what do I see as a tenant in one of the buildings?

"Shel-mar Talent Management".

The worst part is, of course, that I couldn't really
explain to my coworkers why I was laughing so hard. 
:)

Moe

=====
In Nomine stuff:
http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html
Everything else (not that there is, right now): 
http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html
Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date)

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:58:58 -0400
From: Elizabeth McCoy <emccoy@nh.ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Vessels

At 4:08 PM +1000 9/29/00, Azrael wrote:
>If a small vessel, gets protection and leverage penalties, does a
>"gianormous" vessel get bonii (sorry, force of habit there: bonus')?


GM fiat -- both ways. iirc, no mention of protection penalties in IN, and
only mention of leverager disads in GIN (IN bhas no corresponding disads
or mechanics, iirc).


- --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos.
"She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:41:16 -0400
From: Elizabeth McCoy <emccoy@nh.ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)

At 11:24 AM -0700 9/29/00, Maurice Lane wrote:
[...]
>So, any suggestions?  :)

GURPS Timetravel. No, really -- it addresses a lot of concerns about
mutable/immutable/limitedly mutable time travel. And IIRC, John M. Ford
is a co-author.

I'd explain more, but see the .sig...


- --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos.
"She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:44:11 -0400
From: Elizabeth McCoy <emccoy@nh.ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Odd, and a bit disconcerting.

At 1:04 PM -0700 9/29/00, Maurice Lane wrote:
>So I'm doing my job (real estate lease administration,
>btw:  amazing how useful the library education turned
>out.  Not to mention considerably more lucrative), and
>what do I see as a tenant in one of the buildings?
>
>"Shel-mar Talent Management".

Urm.... I wouldn't go check that place out, no matter how
tempting it was, really. They're either Lilim or Kobalites,
way I'd figure it.

O8\




- --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos.
"She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:20:18 GMT
From: "Perry Lloyd" <perrylloyd@hotmail.com>
Subject: IN> Artifact Question

Okay, I've been searching desperately through my books, including the core 
book and the Liber Reliquarum and *does* it say that:

First,
Corporeal Artifacts can be brought to the Ethereal and Celestial planes?
Ethereal Artifacts can be brought to the Celestial plane?
I assume yes.

Second,
Will a Corporeal Artifact (Sword) Power +4, on the Celestial plane, be 
weilded with *Strength* + Large Weapon or *Will* + Large Weapon?
I assume Will.


- -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, 
Archangel of Tea

perrylloyd@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html

"And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong.  Do you 
know that people would rather die than be wrong?"
- --from A Matter For Men
  by David Gerrold

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:40:29 -0600
From: Tim Groth <Timothy.Groth@colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Question

>Okay, I've been searching desperately through my books, including 
>the core book and the Liber Reliquarum and *does* it say that:
>
>First,
>Corporeal Artifacts can be brought to the Ethereal and Celestial planes?
>Ethereal Artifacts can be brought to the Celestial plane?
>I assume yes.

Nope.  You can't bring Corporeal Artifacts "up", same with Ethereal 
ones.  If you had a Celestial sword it would work with Will most 
likely.  But you can't use corporeal items in the celestial realm, 
even if the item is an artifact.
- -- 


Timothy, Angel of Rambling
Ofanite of Creation
ArchRival of Mathus
If you have time to kill, why not kill it at 
http://ucsub.Colorado.edu/~grothtp/In.html 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:50:32 -0700
From: Kris Overstreet <redneck@detnet.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Question

At 10:20 PM 9/29/00 GMT, you wrote:
>Okay, I've been searching desperately through my books, including the core 
>book and the Liber Reliquarum and *does* it say that:
>
>First,
>Corporeal Artifacts can be brought to the Ethereal and Celestial planes?
>Ethereal Artifacts can be brought to the Celestial plane?
>I assume yes.

Nope. Leaving aside the core book's statement, LR p. 9:

"[Corporeal artifacts] can only exist on the corporeal plane (i. e. Earth)
and will remain behind if someone attempts to take them to the Marches,
Heaven or Hell. If carried on a vessel, the items vanish when the vessel
vanishes and reappear when the vessel reappears."

Redneck


Kris Overstreet, aka Redneck Gaijin
publisher, White Lightning Prod. - www.wlpcomics.com
I ***LOATHE*** Microsoft Outlook. Please get Eudora.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:13:24 -0400
From: Elizabeth McCoy <emccoy@nh.ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Question

At 10:20 PM +0000 9/29/00, Perry Lloyd wrote:
>First,
>Corporeal Artifacts can be brought to the Ethereal and Celestial planes?

No -- they're in potentiality, same as a vessel.

>Ethereal Artifacts can be brought to the Celestial plane?

Ditto -- potentiality.


>Second,

Moot for corporeal/ethereal items. 

A relic in the form of a Sword would be Will-weilded, yes.



This is from memory. There is a baby screaming in my ear.

- --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos.
"She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:11:35 -0400
From: "William J. Keith" <wjk150@email.psu.edu>
Subject: IN> Dream Artifact

Okay, I'm kinda sorry to do this, but it's just been growing on me while
watching this.  Here's how it goes:

I've been watching Sailor Moon on Cartoon Network.

(This break for mocking the fanboy brought to you by Crown Video Arcade...)

The recent story arc is about some villains looking for someone.  The
metaphysics are complicated, but it boils down to a search for people with
beautiful dreams.  So they capture likely humans, bind them, and take a
peek inside their private dreams.

Right off the bat I'm thinking Blandine would be going PSYCHO on these
guys... then I think, "Hey, that mirror looks like a darn cool artifact.
Think I'll write it up for _In Nomine_."

Dream Mirror
Corporeal Artifact and Talisman versions

Even better than being yourself with the entire Symphony trying to drown
you out, some demons like to force others to give up some of their
uniqueness.  When Beleth finds a Servitor with this particular twist, she
will sometimes grant them a Dream Mirror.

The concept is simple.  Start by trapping a human.  For 1 Essence, summon
the Mirror, which positions itself in front of the human.  Then look into
the Mirror - you can even stick your head in physically, to look about.  In
the Mirror, you will see your choice: either the highest and brightest of
the human's dreams, or the deepest and darkest of their nightmares.  (This
may or may not have any relation to their actual Destiny and Fate.)  Either
way, the experience is excruciating to the human, who takes 1 Mind hit and
1 Soul hit from the experience of having their most intimate hopes and
fears violated.  Naturally, to keep them in range, they will always have to
be bound.

Beleth's Word has a simple connection with the instruments.  Mainly,
however, she makes them because Blandine finds their very existence
emotionally painful.

If one of Blandine's Servitors ever gets their hands on one, two things
will happen.  First, some Servitor of Beleth is going to get their Forces
scattered all over the Marches.  Second, Blandine will turn the foot-square
plain mirror into a small, elegant hand mirror.  Now, instead of violating
a human deeply, it can be summoned into the angel's hand for 1 Essence, and
then by holding it in front of a person's head the angel may peek into a
sleeping person's dreamscape, or a daydreaming person's imagination.  The
mirror will show a visual peek at what is going on, without any other
senses or any other circumstances, such as thoughts or emotions.  There is
no limitation on the duration of the effect or the number of people to be
affected - the mirror will stay in existence for as long as the angel holds
it.  This transformation will only work on the corporeal artifacts.
However, Blandine will reward the destruction of a Mirror, of either form,
with a minor boon.

William

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:26:24 -0500
From: David Edelstein <amadan@amadan.org>
Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Question

Perry Lloyd wrote:
> First,
> Corporeal Artifacts can be brought to the Ethereal and Celestial planes?

No.

> Ethereal Artifacts can be brought to the Celestial plane?
> I assume yes.

No.

> Will a Corporeal Artifact (Sword) Power +4, on the Celestial plane, be
> weilded with *Strength* + Large Weapon or *Will* + Large Weapon?
> I assume Will.

Moot: see above.

- -David

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:34:35 +1000
From: "Shane Curtis" <sabriel@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Question

On 29 Sep 2000, 16:40, Tim Groth wrote:
> Nope.  You can't bring Corporeal Artifacts "up", same with Ethereal 
> ones.  If you had a Celestial sword it would work with Will most 
> likely.  But you can't use corporeal items in the celestial realm, 
> even if the item is an artifact.

Hmm. Ok, so we can't bring objects/Artifacts "up", normally. So what all 
can you bring "down" to the Ethereal and/or Corporeal?

Obviously, you can bring down Celestial Artifacts. And they're solid on 
Earth. But when a celestial manifests their celestial form on Earth, it's 
immaterial. So if you had an 'ordinary' celestial paperweight (not an 
Artifact) with you when you descended to Earth, would it immaterially 
manifest along with your celestial form too? Can you drop it? Throw it? 
The core book says normal forces including gravity don't affect celestial 
forms - I guess it would just stay wherever you put it (note to self: 
celestial objects in the corporeal realm apparently have their own 
special reference frame?).

Part two: from what I understand, celestial objects are material in the 
ethereal realm (as much as anything is, anyway)?

On to part three: what are the manufacturing capabilities of Heaven/Hell? 
how are celestial objects created? Would a war for the Marches (or an 
assault on Heaven/Hell) really be fought with flaming sword-analogues, or 
flaming high-tech military hardware-analogues?

Shane.
"Sir, we're being shelled by Infernal tanks!" "No problem, the artillery 
battalion should be responding to our laser designators right.. about.. 
NOW!" *LOTS OF EXPLOSIONS*

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 03:39:58 EDT
From: BillionSix@aol.com
Subject: Re: IN> No books with me, curse it...

In a message dated 9/29/00 7:55:24 AM Central Daylight Time, edg@sjgames.com 
writes:

<< Demon: Ah, Grand Lady Princess Beleth, I hereby - ah - petition for the 
 privilege of using your Shedite attunement...
 Beleth: Why?
 Demon: Because, ah, it would be, ah, useful for me to, ah, assume my native 
 body in the world of the humans...
 Beleth: I see.  This is for your own good, Azzie.
 * Beleth tosses the demon out over the walls of the Tower and into the 
 Marches, where he's promptly leapt upon by some Ethereal God and used as a 
 snack. *
 Beleth: ...weakling.
 
 -EDG
   Princes have dissonance conditions for a /reason/... >>


 Okay, good point. I've just never been clear on what Blandine and Beleth's 
reason's ARE. It just seems a bit arbitrary, that's all. Like early D&D. 
Clerics can't use edged weapons, magic-users can only use daggers, Servitors 
of Dream can't use Celestial Songs in the Corporeal realm.

Reverend Brian A. Rogers
BillionSix@aol.com
ICQ# 22544590

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 01:24:46 -0700
From: "Kish" <Kish_K@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: IN> No books with me, curse it...

From: BillionSix@aol.com <BillionSix@aol.com>


<<Okay, good point. I've just never been clear on what Blandine and
Beleth's
reason's ARE. It just seems a bit arbitrary, that's all. Like early
D&D.
Clerics can't use edged weapons, magic-users can only use daggers,
Servitors
of Dream can't use Celestial Songs in the Corporeal realm.>>


My impression is that Beleth's reason is, "Don't be unsubtle.  If you
need displays of celestial power to terrorize the humans, you're not
fit to be my Servitor."

- --
     Kish
ICQ#: 28085879
AIM: Kish K M
Kish_K@mindspring.replacewithcom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 03:54:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Maurice Lane <moelane_1999@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see that got your attention)

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:51:56 +0100
From: "Laurent" <cossonl@logica.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Songs allowing Time Travel (I see
that got your attention)

>There's this thing DEATH does all the time in MORT,
>the Discworld novel. It freezes the scenary, and only
>the user and a few designated people are 
>experiencing a time flow. It's a classic, used so
>many times on TV and stuff... I think it would be
>quite suitable for an Ethereal Song of Time.
>Not sure it would be commonly available, though.
>Can't remember if there's already a Song that does
>that...

Doesn't ring any bells.  Something like the above
would be interesting, but ....

... hmmm.

:)

Moe

Laurent.



=====
In Nomine stuff:
http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html
Everything else (not that there is, right now): 
http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html
Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date)

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free!
http://photos.yahoo.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:22:32 -0400
From: "William J. Keith" <wjk150@email.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: IN> No books with me, curse it...

>In a message dated 9/29/00 7:55:24 AM Central Daylight Time, edg@sjgames.com
>writes:
>
><< Demon: Ah, Grand Lady Princess Beleth, I hereby - ah - petition for the
> privilege of using your Shedite attunement...
> Beleth: Why?
> Demon: Because, ah, it would be, ah, useful for me to, ah, assume my native
> body in the world of the humans...
> Beleth: I see.  This is for your own good, Azzie.
> * Beleth tosses the demon out over the walls of the Tower and into the
> Marches, where he's promptly leapt upon by some Ethereal God and used as a
> snack. *
> Beleth: ...weakling.
>
> -EDG
>   Princes have dissonance conditions for a /reason/... >>
>
>
> Okay, good point. I've just never been clear on what Blandine and Beleth's
>reason's ARE. It just seems a bit arbitrary, that's all. Like early D&D.
>Clerics can't use edged weapons, magic-users can only use daggers, Servitors
>of Dream can't use Celestial Songs in the Corporeal realm.

Blandine's reasons, the way I see it, are a bit like Khalid's.  She wants
humans to be as free as possible to follow their own dreams, and therefore
they should know as little about the existence of angels as possible.  When
in the Corporeal realm, angels should stick to their vessels and try to use
natural means - angels should be a dreamlike presence on the edge of a
human's senses.  What humankind can *see,* is no longer a *dream*; it's a
best a dream become reality.

Beleth knows perfectly well that what humankind can *understand,* it often
no longer *fears*.  Demons should be as subtle as possible, giving humans
no more information than they must.  Knowing that what's trying to hurt you
is actually a demon makes everything much more clear-cut: there's you,
there's him, he's a demon and therefore evil, and you, being a good guy,
aren't gonna take this kind of crap from some Hell-spawned six-toed freak.
Ask any TV or movie writer - the nightmare is much more effective when it's
lurking in every shadow and every glance, rather than menacing you with a
club in broad daylight.  The exception, of course, is Shedim.  Shedim
appearing to humans inspire immediate shakes and pretty much forestall the
option of thinking rationally as above.

>Reverend Brian A. Rogers
>BillionSix@aol.com
>ICQ# 22544590

William

------------------------------

End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1835
********************************

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