From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jan 4 14:19:40 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA30433 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:19:40 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA29007 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:19:57 -0600 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:19:57 -0600 Message-Id: <200101042019.OAA29007@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2004 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, January 4 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2004 In this digest: IN> Fwd: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from ["Dilgan Razor" ] Re: IN> Fwd: U n s toppable force vs. Immovable object IN> Demon of Boredom Re: IN> Ethereal Spirits question Re: IN> Ethereal Spirits question Re: IN> Dead Presidents Re: IN> Ethereal Spirits question Re: [NPC] Jesus with Guns (was IN> Ethereal Spirits question) Re: IN> Ethereal Spirits question Re: IN> Ethereal Spirits question Re: [NPC] Jesus with Guns (was IN> Ethereal Spirits question) Re: IN> Dead Presidents Re: [NPC] Jesus with Guns (was IN> Ethereal Spirits question) Re: [NPC] Jesus with Guns (was IN> Ethereal Spirits question) Re: [NPC] Jesus with Guns (was IN> Ethereal Spirits question) IN> "Average" is such a subjective term... Re: [NPC] Jesus with Guns (was IN> Ethereal Spirits question) Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:17:29 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fwd: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from ["Dilgan Razor" ] >Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:27:57 -0600 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from ["Dilgan Razor" ] [[ It really helps if one reads www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/lists.html . - --Beth ]] >From: "Dilgan Razor" >Subject: RE: IN, Kyritates of stone >Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 22:26:00 -0000 > >I really need to print down my view of this problem, though my mailserver >seems to violently resist sending anything to the IN list.. >:( >*snip* By the same token, simply landing on the shoulder of someone is, in >>and of itself, Not an attack. There is no intent of harm (in the landing >on the >>shoulder). *snip* > >*snip* >>>David would also have been annoyed at first contact being the bird's. >>>>The threshhold of contact was the bird, not the demon. >>>> >>>That too. >>But the disonance condition prohibits attacking first. It does not >>prohibit first physical contact. Again, there is nothing that says or >>implies that an angel could not tap someone on the shoulder to get their >>attention. If doing so resulted in the person hitting the angel (reflexively >>or otherwise), then the angel could respond to that attack without risking >>dissonance, right? the issue is who threw the first punch. Who made the first >>attack, trying to harm the other? How that happened, and what lead up to that >>(teasing, mocking, or trickery) are not the issue, as I read the dissonance >>condition. But hey, that's just me. *snip* > >As I see it this discussion is no longer about what gives dissonance or not. >Instead its about what dissonance really is. Its definition. In my eyes >dissonance is that nagging feeling you get after having done something >totally contrary to your expressed beliefs. What psychology calls "Cognitive >Dissonance" if I remember it right. If that is the case we could think of a >servant of David as if he was a Shaolin monk. He knows a lot about violence >and how to use it, but dissaproves of it. Now IF that shaolin monk somehow >had a way to transform himself to a bird and land on that poor unknowing >demons shoulder thus making the demon lash out for the first move, attacking >him would still be totally against all the Shaolin monk believes in. >Dissonant as hell if you ask me. > >If, on the other hand, dissonance is something given to you by your superior >as punishment we would have a totally different story. That would mean that >the character will be free of dissonance as long as he can explain it to his >superior in a "courtlike" fashion (or to the gamemaster). That would also >mean that "people" dont feel bad about what they do as long as they can >justify it to themselves, no matter how absurd the arguments can look to >anyone else (this is on the other hand quite true as well). > >I myself prefer to see dissonance as the characters tendency to slip away >into infernality by not following the "way" he believes to be the right way. >That means that just being able to explain his actions by interpretion of >words is far from enough to avioid dissonance. > >Philippe > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:11:05 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: U n s toppable force vs. Immovable object Santiago asks: > What happens when they collide? An elastic collision. The truck bounces off the Malakite but is unharmed. Next question: If a celestial uses a precognitive Song while traveling near the speed of light, can it see further into the future? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 17:32:12 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: IN> Demon of Boredom - -- Vila, Habbalite of Fate Demon of Boredom Corp (4): Str: 8 Agil: 8 Eth (4): Int: 6 Prec: 10 Cel (4): Will: 12 Per: 4 Vessel: Human/3 Role: Ben Ryan/ Accountant (Status 3, Level 3) Songs: Sleep (all/4), Shields (Eth/5, Cel/3), Healing (Corp/6) Skills: Drive/3, Knowledge (Detailed Trivia on almost any subject/6), Emote/1, Fast Talk/6, Dodge/3 Attunements: Habbalite of Fate, Habbalite of Factions, Demon of Boredom Demon of Boredom Attunement ("I'm Booooooored!") Anyone within 6' of the user who can hear his voice for more than a minute must make a successful Will roll or suffer the effects of boredom -- yawning, difficulty in concentration, and desire to get away. The difficulty in concentrating increases the difficulty of any rolls made by the victim by 3. - -- The phone rang seven times before Max answered it. He let the woman on the other end plead with him for a few minutes before boredom got the better of compassion. "Viv," he said. "I'm not coming back. I'm not in the same country any more, I'm not even in the same continent." He could hear her voice break on the phone as she started to sob. "I thought I was happy for awhile, but I was wrong," he explained uncomfortably. "You probably thought you were happy too -- but we were just comfortable with each other and bored. It will be much better this way for all of us, and for the kids." He leaned back on the thin hostel mattress and pulled at his collar as he listened to her sniff and beg to understand. He'd been very lonely at first, and when he stopped to think about it, he still felt as if he were missing a piece of himself that he'd left in the marriage and children. But it wasn't good for a man to get complacent. At least now he was doing something, anything, to expand his horizons. Viv asked him again who he had left her for. How like a woman, to assume that a man would never do anything except for sex or female attention. "There wasn't anyone," he insisted. "I was just bored." "Bored?" Viv asked, wearily. "And that was it for 20 years of marriage?" "Yes," he said, "I was bored. That, and I never liked the bathroom being blue." - -- Vila, the demon of boredom, works for Kronos now. He's a good demon in the infernal sense of the word (ie. the sense that means exactly the opposite of what a dictionary might say), which is to say that his Word is spreading like wildfire and he has been seen in the act of encouraging it. He's a Habbalite, and really a very mild-mannered creature for his band. You might think that this would make him a more sociable sort of demon than your typical frothing Punisher, but other infernals avoid him for a reason. He is deathly dull. Even with the best wishes in the world, Vila can't hold a listener's attention for more than a couple of minutes before their mind wanders. After half an hour, they start to think about chewing their own arms off. After a couple of hours, they do it. This is without the use of attunements -- it's just a natural aura that comes with his Word. He doesn't understand it, himself, and bemoans the fact that the average attention span of other demons is so painfully low. Surely a sign of weakness. His version of God requires long and devoted and long (did I mention long?) bouts of prayer and service, to prove an acolyte's loyalty. Patience and devotion are his highest virtues, so naturally he sets about trying to prove that no-one else in the entire universe possesses as much of them as he does. Despite being Hell's dullest demon -- and there is strong competition for that particular honour -- there is jockeying to work with or for him on Earth. As long as it doesn't require having to listen to him discourse for any length of time. It's fun work for demons, finding happy people and convincing them that they're desperately bored with their place in the world. They say that the devil finds work for idle hands. Vila is simply the icing on the cake. A spiritual cousin of the adversary who tempted Job in the bible, he injects boredom and discontent into previously happy hearts. And that's largely it. On the surface, it isn't so very different to the way Janus operates. It's just that Vila is always the vanguard of a more sinister assault. He softens people up, preps them for the demonic heavy hitters, and when trouble hits, they will have no-one to blame but themselves. Kronos now personally directs him towards known Soldiers of Heaven or potential saints, knowing too well that sometimes simple boredom can corrupt a man where more ... intense efforts would fail. And boredom becomes so much more of an issue in the modern age, when people have more time to be bored, and when attention spans are dropping through the floor. Now, the Demon of Boredom wasn't always based in the Archives. Kobal originally created Vila as one of a bunch of potential 'straight men'. The Halls of Dark Humour are full to overflowing with demons who think they are amusing, so the Prince of Misrule occasionally tries to balance the mix out with demons who can heckle, beat up, or fail to comprehend the best efforts any of the jokers who get out of hand. Vila was a poor straight man. He had desperately bad comic timing, and ruined every amusing anecdote he touches. After dying on stage particularly horribly at the Dark Humour and Gluttony annual review, Lucifer Himself showed up backstage at the poky little Shal-Mari Theatre to name him the Demon of Boredom. For the first time in the Habbalite's life, everyone laughed. Recently, Kronos sent a formal request that Vila join his Archives. A formal request of the sort that couldn't be refused without starting a War in Hell. (The Prince of Fate doesn't throw his weight about often, but he uses his rights of recruitment from time to time -- the right that means that when Fate requests a demon of another Prince, that demon must be duly delivered.) Kobal was widely known to be furious, although he hid it well, as a transcript of an Infernal Webcast at the time shows: - -- NATHAN: (laughing) Yes, I dig the shoes also. So what's this I hear about the demon of Boredom and his new boss over at the archives -- and if any fatalists out there are watching this, get the HELL off the infernet and wind your pocketwatch up right now, you're already another minute closer to doomsday! KOBAL: You actually stop talking long enough to listen to anyone else? NATHAN: Dude ... I mean, Highness ... we all multitask these days. It's a prerequisite of -- oh and what's this on the other screen? KOBAL: (politely) Fabulous. NATHAN: (brief pause) Sorry, what was that? KOBAL: Absolutely fabulous. NATHAN: Right, yes, of course. Fantastic. And welcome to the 27,000 new visitors who just logged in to this webcast -- except if you're viewing it offline, then of course we're not live any more but have a great online day anyway. Now, I'm chatting to the Prince of Dark Humor about a few bits and bobs, asking the questions we all want to know. If anyone has anything to suggest, you can email me at numediaboi@damnedtv.perdition.hell. And back to the Boredom question, is it true that you said "It takes one to know one" when Kronos pulled strings to get Vila's sorry arse transferred back down to the archives, Highness. KOBAL: Just because something is true doesn't mean that I said it. Now, I'm afraid my time is valuable, so can I just plug my new book before we wind up here? NATHAN: Go for it, Highness. I'm sure we're all waiting with -- KOBAL: It's called, "The New Media: Lemmings, Whores, and Losers for the 3rd Millenium." NATHAN: (pause) Oh. Uh. Ha-ha. KOBAL: Any time. (sotto voce) And sack your researcher. Next time I expect to be addressed as "Bob" or "Your Lowness" - -- When he isn't undertaking personal missions for the Prince of Fate, Vila can often be found with his current posse, the demon of teenage discontent, the demon of interminable guitar solos, the demon of people who never talk about anything except themselves, and the demon of long but ultimately pointless anecdotes. So next time either a player or a PC complains of boredom, they might find several of these demons showing up to take advantage of it ... jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:14:26 -0600 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal Spirits question At 08:15 AM 1/4/01 -0800, you wrote: >No books with me, and I need a clarification. Divine >religions don't generate Ethereals (loas and the Hindu >pantheons are sorta special cases), IIRC, and in fact >can drain the juice of existing ethereals (example in >books was Brigid/St. Bridgit). Noting that, is there >any real reason why an ethereal would find it useful >to impersonate a figure from a divine religion, >besides of course the usual "hiding out" factor? I couldn't find anything in a quick flip-through of 'Marches' that says that divinely-inspired religions -cannot- generate ethereal spirits. Moreover, it is possible that -nonreligious- views of religious figures (i. e. instead of God or Yahweh, "the Man Upstairs" might take form as a bumbling God-figure) could take form and seek to strengthen themselves. Moreover, it is quite probable that an Ethereal will misrepresent themselves to gain Essence through execution of Rites or to recruit assistants for various plots among unsuspecting mortals. Redneck Kris Overstreet, aka Redneck Gaijin publisher, White Lightning Prod. - www.wlpcomics.com I ***LOATHE*** Microsoft Outlook. Please get Eudora. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:18:22 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal Spirits question Kris Overstreet wrote: > I couldn't find anything in a quick flip-through of 'Marches' that says > that divinely-inspired religions -cannot- generate ethereal spirits. It's in the GMG. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:25:11 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Dead Presidents Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:06:20 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Dead Presidents - - --- Maurice Lane wrote: >> Dead Presidents > As cute as this idea is, I can't see it happening. >In the parts of the world where Voudoun and Santeria >are practiced, the average person doesn't know who >Lincoln and Kennedy (I guarantee you that most >Haitians don't). Elvis is better known there, but >probably not thought of as a god. Only Americans do >that. Nor can I see Caribbeans incorporating Uncle >Sam into their belief system -- he's too tied >to "Babylon," as the Rastafarians would >say. True... but the Loas _aren't_ necessarily tied to one culture just because their primary worshippers are. I'm postulating here that the syncretic spirits are actively (if discreetly) trying to break into virgin territory here. So, your average whitebread suburbian housewife won't worship Legba? Fine. Give her Elvis and Betty Crocker ... and sneak in the rest of the pantheon later (maybe to her, maybe to her kids). She may not _call_ it worship, but as long as the Essence rolls in, big fragging deal (I'd say that this particular pantheon is big on Essence sharing anyway). Hey, the August Prosperity Collective does it: why can't the Loas? :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 13:29:12 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal Spirits question Kris Overstreet wrote: > I couldn't find anything in a quick flip-through of 'Marches' that > says that divinely-inspired religions -cannot- generate ethereal > spirits. However, if I recall the GM's guide correctly, the section on religions *does* say that "divine" religions do not spawn Ethereals. In-setting, the reason is that any Essence pointed in the general direction of God or angels or saints is immediately sucked up by Heaven. Out-of-setting, this prevents the creation of Ethereal copies of God, Ethereal angels, etc., which was deemed too confusing. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:36:51 -0500 From: "Krishnaswami, Neel" Subject: Re: [NPC] Jesus with Guns (was IN> Ethereal Spirits question) Maurice Lane wrote: > > No books with me, and I need a clarification. Divine religions > don't generate Ethereals (loas and the Hindu pantheons are sorta > special cases), IIRC, and in fact can drain the juice of existing > ethereals (example in books was Brigid/St. Bridgit). Noting that, > is there any real reason why an ethereal would find it useful to > impersonate a figure from a divine religion, besides of course the > usual "hiding out" factor? Jesus with GUNS "Let me explain: You screw up. You go to hell. " Appearance: Jesus with GUNS (that's his name, really) manifests on Earth and appears in the Marches as the stereotypical middle-American depiction of Jesus -- blue eyes, shoulder-length brown hair, long robes and sandals. He also carries two Browning Hi-Power Mark III 9mm semiautomatic pistols. He uses these to shoot bad people. Story: The current Jesus with GUNS used to be a rather mundane ethereal spirit. He was Thanatos, one of the less important of the Greek gods, surviving on a meager diet of neologisms and overwrought Romantic poetry. That all changed about two years ago, when two Renegade demons, Jobsworth and Levana (Balseraph of Nybbas and Lilim of Kronos respectively) came up with a plan to return to their masters' bad graces. They reasoned that the basic problem with humans was that they could change their minds. If you could find villainous humans, and then just kill them, they would go straight to Hell and the possibility of redeeming later in life would be neatly avoided. However, just icing bad humans had a couple of downsides. First, it causes a lot of disturbance, which brings avenging Malakim with flaming swords. Second, a dead bad person isn't on Earth ruining the lives of everyone around him and dragging them downwards along with his own miserable soul. They came up Jesus with GUNS plan as a way of getting around these two problems. They would get a thug, dress him up as Jesus, and use him to brutally murder sinners. First, he would be an excellent distraction and stalking horse -- while the Malakim with the flaming swords were chasing down Jesus with GUNS, Jobsworth and Levana could be sneaking off. Second, Jesus with GUNS would disrupt witnessing humans' faith in God and their trust in his goodness. Either they would assume they had seen a genuine miracle, in which case they would have to believe that God is an unstylish, messy killer with bad dialogue, or they would write off Jesus with GUNS as a psychotic, and would write off religion as something for nutcase murderers. It was a no-lose proposition. All they needed was a Jesus with GUNS to begin their murder spree. This is where Thanatos (unwillingly) came in. The two of them kidnapped him, and Jobsworth used his resonance to mindscrew poor Thanatos into changing his ethereal form and committing murders (of bad people) for the two demons. As he committed these tacky, tacky killings, he lost his connection to the Thanatos concept, and became dependent on the demons for Essence, and Levana used *her* resonance to gain an incredible number of Geases on the poor ethereal. Now he's a pathetic, addicted wretch, who's dependent on two Renegade demons for a) his self-image, and b) his daily hit of Essence. He'd love to get out, but there's no way these two are letting him go. They're on a roadtrip across the country, stopping in small towns, finding scum and unleashing the wrath of Jesus with GUNS on them. Adventure: Of course the PCs will have to clean up the mess. If they're angels, letting an assassin Jesus on the loose is just not in the cards. If they're demons, then Jobsworth and Levana have gotten awfully careless with the secret of the supernatural presence on Earth. They have to figure out what to do with Thanatos, though. Angels have it tougher, but even demons might hesitate to put him out of his misery -- after all, it's a good trick and maybe they should keep him for their own use. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:33:07 -0600 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal Spirits question At 12:18 PM 1/4/01 -0600, you wrote: >Kris Overstreet wrote: >> I couldn't find anything in a quick flip-through of 'Marches' that says >> that divinely-inspired religions -cannot- generate ethereal spirits. > >It's in the GMG. Speaking of things ethereal... }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, aka Redneck Gaijin publisher, White Lightning Prod. - www.wlpcomics.com I ***LOATHE*** Microsoft Outlook. Please get Eudora. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:34:05 -0600 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal Spirits question At 01:29 PM 1/4/01 -0500, you wrote: >Kris Overstreet wrote: > >> I couldn't find anything in a quick flip-through of 'Marches' that >> says that divinely-inspired religions -cannot- generate ethereal >> spirits. > >However, if I recall the GM's guide correctly, the section on >religions *does* say that "divine" religions do not spawn >Ethereals. In-setting, the reason is that any Essence pointed >in the general direction of God or angels or saints is immediately >sucked up by Heaven. Out-of-setting, this prevents the creation >of Ethereal copies of God, Ethereal angels, etc., which was >deemed too confusing. "My brain hurts!" "It'll have to come out!" I think a little confusion is a good thing in a campaign. }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, aka Redneck Gaijin publisher, White Lightning Prod. - www.wlpcomics.com I ***LOATHE*** Microsoft Outlook. Please get Eudora. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 13:53:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: [NPC] Jesus with Guns (was IN> Ethereal Spirits question) I tip my hat to you, sir. Lots of fun. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:00:00 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Dead Presidents At 10:25 AM -0800 1/4/01, Maurice Lane wrote: > >True... but the Loas _aren't_ necessarily tied to one >culture just because their primary worshippers are. >I'm postulating here that the syncretic spirits are >actively (if discreetly) trying to break into virgin >territory here. So, your average whitebread suburbian >housewife won't worship Legba? Fine. Give her Elvis >and Betty Crocker ... and sneak in the rest of the >pantheon later (maybe to her, maybe to her kids). I do something somewhat similar across the board, especially with cumulative effects. For example, while a person buying a pair of Nike Sneakers, all by himself, isn't enough to give Nike Essence, millions of sneakers, plus millions of "swooshes" emblazoned on everything under the sun, plus recognician of the brand across the board, and commercials, and even the whole "it's gotta be the shoes" mentality where an athlete does his *best* and believes the shoes are making a difference all combine to make the Goddess of Winged Victory much stronger than most of her fellows. Hermes gets his own hits off of F-T-D florists..... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:04:15 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: [NPC] Jesus with Guns (was IN> Ethereal Spirits question) From: "Krishnaswami, Neel" > > Of course the PCs will have to clean up the mess. If they're angels, > letting an assassin Jesus on the loose is just not in the cards. This is too sick for Words! I love this! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:41:12 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner-Thornber Subject: Re: [NPC] Jesus with Guns (was IN> Ethereal Spirits question) > Jesus with GUNS (that's his name, really) manifests on Earth and > appears in the Marches as the stereotypical middle-American depiction > of Jesus -- blue eyes, shoulder-length brown hair, long robes and > sandals. He also carries two Browning Hi-Power Mark III 9mm > semiautomatic pistols. He uses these to shoot bad people. Speaking of strange images of Christ, I've been reading a book called _Rabbi Jesus: An Intimate Biography_ by Bruce Chilton. While this book is spectacularly good if you're interested in trying to place Christ in the proper religious and historical context, the image of the short, balding, bearded Christ with a paunch has been haunting me all day. Which makes one wonder -- since no one (or at least no one hanging around a Catholic Church these days) sees Christ as anything less than the blue-eyed, well-built, neatly groomed young man that any woman would want to marry, does this mean this guy is the ultimate ethereal spirit, sucking up the mega-essence of millions of believers, while the image and the person of the _real_ Christ is lost forever from history? - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner-Thornber -- http://www.nodonut.com/zenith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 14:48:46 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: [NPC] Jesus with Guns (was IN> Ethereal Spirits question) Emily Dresner-Thornber wrote: > the image of the short, balding, bearded Christ with a > paunch has been haunting me all day. Where did Chilton get those particulars? Given the time and place where he lived, he was almost certainly dark and bearded, like all the other men, but even that's just an inference. > Which makes one wonder -- since no one (or at least no one > hanging around a Catholic Church these days) sees Christ as > anything less than the blue-eyed, well-built, neatly groomed > young man that any woman would want to marry Um. But there are other days and other churches. A lot of famous religious imagery depicts Jesus as dark-haired, and so does the not-so-famous in areas of the world not dominated by north European populations. Lots of paintings and statuary depict him as lanky -- this, I have heard it said, a tradition stemming from the image on the Shroud of Turin. It's traditional in the Orthodox church that his left leg was shorter than his right, which is why Orthodox crosses have that little slanted crosspiece on the bottom. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:52:43 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: IN> "Average" is such a subjective term... He's weak, clumsy, stupid, and fragile -- at least, compared to his angelic brethren. For humans, he's just about average. Zurishaddai ("the Almighty is my rock and my strength," so sayeth the Celestial Name List on sjgames.com) is a Grigori who was made with considerable care by David when this Choir was in its youth. David's intent for his Servitor was to understand as much as he could of humanity's perspective on everything, and then report his findings back to the angels who would do the real work. Zuri has no problem with this position; you're made how you're made, and he knows why he was made the way he was. He's supposed to _work_ for it, just like the standard-issue human. Applying this philosophy over millenia, he has gotten decidedly good at an astonishing variety of skills, professions, and lifestyles, and in addition he's been keeping track of it all -- how humans learn, analyses of emotions like frustration and triumph, and perceptions of weakness and strength. Over the years, his carefully-protected diaries have at times covered several bookshelves, or these days half a CD-RW. When his Choir was Outcast, Zuri looked upon the turn of events as a chance to see how humanity dealt with such long stretches without contact with Heaven. So far, he's not liking it much. Earth is nice and all, don't get me wrong, and humans are probably the best things God ever created, but at least Heaven is something they get to look forward to after a hundred years, tops. However, Zuri has kept a constant faith in God through his time of trouble, always trying to be open to divine guidance to make up for his personal weaknesses, and clings to the hope that one day he will be allowed into Heaven. Not very different from humans at all, really. Zurishaddai Outcast Grigori Servitor of Stone ST 10 DX 10 IQ 10 HT 10 Power Investiture: Corporeal 5, Ethereal 2, Celestial 2 Zuri is quite a complex character. Below the next listings are the footnotes, marked by asterisks and tildes; one ~ equals 5 *. Advantages~: Vessel(middle-aged human male, bearded Arab features, Alternate Identity as Zurishaddai Bashere, an exclusive gem-trader in Paris, Wealthy), Vessel(young adult human male, Arab features, Handsome appearance, Zeroed)***, Ambidexterity, Charisma +3, Combat Reflexes, Role 4(Zurishaddai Bashere, high-society gem merchant), Mathematical Ability, Language Talent +5, Strong Will +5, Danger Sense, Ally(Alexandre De Gaulle, Child of the Grigori, built on 101-150 points as a Paris policeman; appears rarely)** Disadvantages: Heartless Outcast, Code of Honor(still religiously follows David's Dissonance condition, despite having lost the Dissonance rider), Dependent(Mercedes Dumas, beloved wife, now 63 yrs. old but independently Very Wealthy and still capable of running a catering staff for a party of hundreds, and still Attractive -- Beautiful to Zuri.... also aware of his nature and condition. 12 pts) Quirks: still has a (very practiced and discerning!) eye for the ladies, -1**** Skills: Animal Handling-12, Teamster-11, Riding-10, Swimming-10, Brawling-12, Two-Handed Sword(to be specific, Big Honkin' Scimitar)-14, Broadsword-8, Jeweler-20, Indo-European-10~*, Indo-Iranian-10, Iranian Southwest-12, Old Persian-14, Latin-16, Old French-18, French-20, English-20, First Aid-11, Area Knowledge(Paris)-12, Computer Operation-9, Geology-10, Prospecting-11, Merchant-13, Savoir-Faire-13, Sex Appeal-10, Forgery-9, Stealth-11, Streetwise-11, Driving(car)-10 Skill notes: The skills themselves tell much of Zuri's story. He started out as a driver for a merchant, abandoning this during the first years of Outcasting. He reestablished an identity as a miner and seller of stones and metal for a long while, then spent about a millenium as a trader in metals and gems between the Middle East, India, and Rome, then in recent centuries has taken up the trade of a jeweler. This latter has been much to his liking, and he's worked hard at becoming quite an expert. He can get along in the high society of his clientele or the seamier streets where he can get the materials for his personally-made fake IDs, and when necessary can hold his own with a demon armed or bare-handed. Against humans, he can kick some butt. Some of the older skills were initially at higher levels, but have since decayed off by non-use or the advancement of science past earlier Tech Levels. Songs~**: Healing(Corporeal)-8, Affinity(Corporeal)-7 Equipment: Big Honkin' Scimitar on a display shelf at his home, but still sharp; accoutrements of a rather well-off Parisian such as clothes/car/home/etc., some owned by his wife; two cell phones with each other's number on speed dial(Zuri will subtly use one to call the other and claim that he must step out if a customer is in the shop when he senses a Disturbance); Second Chance Standard kevlar vest, a reasonable precaution under the business suit of even a mortal Parisian jeweler; a collection of old scrolls and antique notebooks which is valuable now but cost him little at the time -- his old diaries; computer and several digital copies of his millenia of notes; some random ancient coinage; and sink all but $10,000 of the remaining Wealth into ownership of The Arabian Gem Inc. and all related papers and material. (I estimate $30-50,000 of saleable goods at any given time; plus account books, shop lease, cutting materials, licenses, security system, and so forth.) *Zuri's Reputation is really his company's, with him just switching names from time to time. Despite the owner's odd hours and absences, The Arabian Gem is "the" company to go to for high-quality rare and exotic cuts and stones (for a +3), recognized by the small class of high-society jewelers and gem merchants for 1/3, and the name and "current owner" of the company is instantly recognized by all of this class. **Yes, Alexandre is one of Zuri's own descendents. Zuri keeps track of them when he can, and explains to them what they are when he feels they are ready to hear it. Alexandre generally wishes to live his own life without Zuri, but cares distantly for him and will help on occasion(6 or less). ***It was his behavior in this Vessel that makes Zuri sure his own punishment was justified.... ****After the Advantages, Disadvantages, and Quirk, I thought it was interesting at one point in the editing to have precisely 111 points left for skills, Songs, and equipment. %^) ~All the Advantages listed here, save for the Vessels, Role, and the Appearance of the second Vessel, are things that I figured could be achieved and honed with long and dedicated hard work. I eliminated from consideration such things as Acute Vision, for example. ~*These languages were accumulated as Zuri developed different levels of Language Talent, but all represent the investment of 2 points in learning the languages at "IQ + Language Talent." About the time he realized that Indo-Iranian wasn't Indo-European any more, he started working on picking these things up. He's not a linguist, but he might give one some surprising insights. ~**Zuri has made no particular effort to increase his skill with Songs -- it's not something most humans can do at all, so he doesn't want to depend on them -- but when time permits will take extra time to perform a Song as per the Liber Canticorum. Zuri often would use Affinity to locate the vein from which metals or stones were dug, and he keeps a well-organized file of stone cuttings tagged with the names of the final stone's purchasers, including date of purchase and other ID. Just in case. Zuri is, believe it or not, a balanced starting character. (I think. He may be a point or so over or under, and I'm not 100% sure about the equipment. If owning the company is putting him over his identity's Wealth, then scrap ownership and the reputation and he now simply a very good jeweler, with the extra points distributed evenly around his Songs and a couple of the lower-level skills.) William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:55:07 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: [NPC] Jesus with Guns (was IN> Ethereal Spirits question) At 2:41 PM -0500 1/4/01, Emily Dresner-Thornber wrote: > >While this book is spectacularly good if you're interested in >trying to place Christ in the proper religious and historical >context, the image of the short, balding, bearded Christ with a >paunch has been haunting me all day. http://fatjesus.keenspace.com/ -- because, deep down, what would Fat Jesus do? - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 15:18:38 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) At 23:43 -0500 1/3/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: >First comment: What the heck is up with the HT/Total Forces parallel? I >mean, why did you (Elizabeth, Walter) decide to bind up Essence up in HT? That was one result of the Great Fatigue/Essence War. Essentially, we had to create an Essence stat (the Essence Control level), but additional levels of that simply came out too cheap, so it needed an external limit somewhere. Power Investiture couldn't be used, since it doesn't give Soldiers enough Essence. That pretty much required it to either be an additional advantage (which would cost significant points but confer no game benefit -- can you hear the screaming yet...?), or something based off existing attributes somehow. And it couldn't be an additional advantage, since mundane humans wouldn't have it. (We were *not* allowed to require additional stats or advantages to be added to normal humans.) So it had to be an attribute, or some combination. Of the four GURPS attributes, HT seemed the best fit, since it's the closest thing GURPS has to a measure of "life energy". It's also the most otherwise-unused attribute, since nothing depends on it except hit points and a very few skills. (I certainly didn't want to use ST, since any combat-oriented character would tend to have a rather high ST.) I also wanted something as a separate driver for HT in conversion, since Strength wasn't really a good one. I suppose I could also have used the mechanic I finally would up with to replace Forces for Kyrios, which was total attribute levels, but the math would have been messier, and I'm not sure the result would have been much better. It would have to be something like (ST+DX+IQ+HT)/6, I think. >I have a PC we'll be converting who'll have a MUCH higher HT than he would >otherwise (from 8 to 15), and he'll be taking 7 levels of reduced hit points >to make up for the difference. It feels /very/ artificial. It is, to some extent. The problem is that there are some fundamental incompatibilities between GURPS mechanics and IN mechanics. While it's always possible to represent an IN character in more or less equivalent GURPS terms, sometimes the contortions required are klunky. (Look at how some of the IN Discords have to be handled.) The conversion process is by no means perfect. It was the best I could come up with that wasn't terribly complex and did a fairly reasonable job with more or less average celestials. >As it stands right now, without a house rule, in regards to the >afore-mentioned character we'll be converting, his player going to feel >jacked because while other higher IN Strength members of the group with be >able to "buy up" their levels of Essence Control (because the IN >Strength/GURPS HT conversion will give them HT much higher than 14), >especially since there's no apparent metaphysical connection between HT and >Essence. They still can't raise their Essence Control without a Superior's intervention; you can GM-fiat that to some extent. The conversion process needs a fair amount of GM fiat anyway, since there are things in GURPS that cost points that don't even exist in IN, but make sense for some characters to have. >I can see that it would make sense, kinda, for mundane humans, in order to >determine how much Impudites could drain (and for them to spend on actions). > But . . . other than that, there appears to no reason not to make the >number of levels of Essence Control = # lvls of Power Investiture >(Corp+Ethe+Cele). (See comment #2) Soldiers don't work right if you do that. That was my first thought. I couldn't find a non-klunky fix to that, and neither did the playtesters. (There was a *lot* of playtest discussion about Forces and Essence.) >Second comment: related to the above, I'm surprised that there's not an >upper limit on levels of Essence control equal to your levels of Power >Investiture (Corp+Ethe+Cele). For my group, that seemed to be the main >reason to want more Forces, to have access to more Essence! Now, my players >will probably we saving up their points to raise their HT for the very same >reason (though perhaps not, if they've got higher HT, and therefore a larger >Essence Pool, to begin with). Power Investiture <> Forces -- it represents only one aspect of Forces, the ability to use Songs and get a performance bonus for them. Basically, what's happened here is that the most fundamental stat in IN (Forces), which drives all character generation, doesn't even exist in GURPS. In particular, attributes are the primary stat in GURPS, and totally unconstrained except by total points. I thought about using total point value as a Force replacement, but that died quickly -- too many advantages and disads change the total point value, but shouldn't affect Forces. So I had to construct all the effects of Forces in IN from other GURPS mechanics, and it had to work for un-tweaked mundane humans. This effectively decoupled all the various things that derive from Forces in IN, and adding a whole bunch of external constraints would have been far more klunky than the single one I did add. >Third comment: congratulations on keeping Choir costs within about 150 >points of each other, and Band costs within 50pts or so. And seeing as the >outlier is the Kyriotates, I feel more justified in not allowing Kyriotate >PCs. I wasn't trying to keep the costs within any particular range, that's just how they worked out. For the most part, they reflect my opinion of the relative game strengths of the Choirs and Bands, and the costs worked backwards from that to price the four core celestial advantages (Cel. Knowledge, Influence, and Tracking, and Body-hopping), and then worked forward again with all the enhancements and limitations. There was a bit more to it than that, of course, since there were various experiments in building the powers from existing GURPS advantages. - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2004 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.