From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jan 5 20:31:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01381 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:31:44 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id UAA30703 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:32:34 -0600 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:32:34 -0600 Message-Id: <200101060232.UAA30703@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2007 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, January 5 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2007 In this digest: IN> A romance from Eden to Hell to Heaven Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine Re: IN> January 3, 2001. Re: IN> There's a reason why they let Vapula create most of the toys. Re: IN> Ethereal Spirits question Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) Re: IN> Dead Presidents Re: IN> Dead Presidents Re: IN> Minor choirs collection Re: Re:IN> The Redeemers [NPCs, no stats] IN> Angels and Free Love IN> Fallen Purity IN> Elohim of Novalis Re: IN> Fallen Purity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:19:56 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> A romance from Eden to Hell to Heaven >Okay, up front here, the _idea_ is interesting. But looking at it from >the viewpoint of a hypothetical problem, I see some flaws. (If you >have these flaws covered, but didn't write the fixes down, then, well... >Iz yer own darn fault for not writin' 'em down! O:> ) Of course. The answer to your main question is that the Seraph in question is a PC but I'm clearing the matter with him for his background ahead of time....it seems like it will spoil alot of the campaign but the character knows what will happen anyway with the events and it's the individual level that things will matter. >If the Seraph is _your_ NPC, then........ Are you sure there's anything >for the PCs to _do_ here? They really seem to be having a serious >case of the "we are essential background characters." (I mean, if your >players _like_ doing that kind of thing, that's fine.) Of course the players will have their own plots and places within this work including words, attacks, foes, and mortal enemies to make within the work. * Ophis may survive and become Baal's Duke of War * Longinus may become a terrible enemy or a close friend who betrays them * Love interests created according to the PCs' and all the usual stuff for characters, I'm just looking how I want to make the overriding plot though. [...] >The story will take a different turn with the next adventure which is set >about twenty thousand years later with the PCs asked by Gabriel's servants >to act as heralds for the newborn King over a little barn in Bethelem. The >PCs will be required to watch but not interfere > >BOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRIIIIINNNNNGGGG. > Not especially, it's one scene in the adventure. Also of course the inevitable conflict with demons and judgement over the fact is this the Son of God and not. Depending on how the PCs interact I may end up having them try to stop Herod (a soldier of Baal or helped along by a Servant of Judgement insane at the "heresy" of this) try and kill countless children to get at Jesus. >If you've got some good _side plots_ going, such as having demonic >interferance which they can whomp, or otherwise do stuff around the >spotlight, this might not be bad (especially for certain kinds of >players), but the "watch and don't interfere" is otherwise likely >to result in the GM talking to himself a lot while the players >take notes (best case) or veg out. Well I'm letting them have acess to their own plots during this time, watch but don't intefere also means try and railroad any celestials and the like from the place as well. Really I don't want to identify too much of what they will be assigned to until I get a good idea on how they interact and what their interests will be. >I think it's _way_ too scripted, personally. It depends on your players, >but none of our groups would put up with it very well: the players are >too-frequently incidental to the plot-as-written, and the plot-as-written >seems to depend on them not doing something weird. If the Seraph Love >Interest is a NPC, what happens if one of the _other_ PCs decides to >be his rival? What happens if one of them discovers he's got the hots >for a hyooman and vessel-kills him before he can get much further than >that? What happens if one of them _Falls_? Then the PC is out of the game if he Falls and they either kill him or he redeems by the time of the next adventure. Or I change focus if everyone wishes to Fall and scrimp the game entirely annoyed indeed...however I sincerely doubt that will happen. I also intend for the other PCs to have similar "epic parts" if they keep up, but the Seraph has mostly proven my most consistant player. >If your players are anything like the ones I know, you need to take a >look at which parts of this plot have them Doing Nothing Of Consequence >(to the plot or to themselves) and figure out several side-plot options >to _focus_ on. And also make sure that you aren't doing data-dumps of >"The Real Plot" for them to feel inferior and powerless about -- rumors >are okay in some circumstances where "hard facts" would not be... Mostly the Lilith plot is for the romance with the Seraph. I imagine the other PCs will be more interested in demon bashing and killing Legion and maybe meeting a young Haagenti during this. >But from where I'm standing, it's looking a lot like The Final Trumpet >in Scope And Plotting, which is justly considered to be flawed by many, >because there's not enough What Players Can Do To Affect Things. Actually that was one of my favorite games as the players determined whether or not a Superior might fall, Whether or not a Superior would die (Magog), and loads of countless adventures for Referees to create if they simply desire to do so and use the immense background for a huge campaign where if they survive they save the universe. Plus kill the Migard Serpent...etc etc tec. Frankly I never understood people's opinions on it as being anything but a MASSIVE part for the Pcs in the destiny of the Symphony. >Interesting to read, fun to think about, but unless you've got the PCs >in the major roles (and the PCs are in agreement with the GM as to how >the plot "should" go), I think putting it into action will have problems. Well those are my answers and thanks for teh advice. >At least, that's how _I'd_ see it from what you've written. I need to go >as I have a very cranky baby now... Coochie coochie coo Any ideas for how to play Lilith during this? Longinus? - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:34:07 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine At 22:34 -0500 1/5/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>[...] >> >>Have I mentioned my attempt to convert a Werewolf back _into_ White >> >>Wolf dots? Had to take a chainsaw to the result (she had about umpty >> >>zillion dots), but she was a perfectly legal GURPS W:TA character.) >> > >> >heh heh yeah. That's because, I believe, GURPS allows for point >>spill-over >> >between attributes, skills, and powers. Not true in the White Wolf >>system. >> >>Something like that -- also, the system of conversion simply wasn't >>designed >>to go both ways. (A major flaw, I think.) So my optimaxing of the WW >>character (I wonder if the base cost for a WW character was based on some >>of the conversions... Hmmm...) caused it to go off-the-scale when I tried >>to reverse the dots-to-skill conversions. > >Hrm, I wonder if something similar will be true in GIN. I wouldn't be totally surprised, the conversion process isn't really all that accurate, and doing a forward-then-reverse conversion is only going to amplify the conversion noise, which may indeed include some net positive gain. We didn't really play with this, since it isn't an expected sort of thing for players to do. We were mostly concerned with: - converting existing IN characters (and campaigns) to GURPS mechanics - and converting GURPS worldbook material for use in IN >>Sounds a _lot_ like the fluffstuff we've been doing... The Space character >>is speculating that "disturbance" is what happens when mass-energy >>conservation is violated -- such as happens when Essence (energy) is >>used, or something is broken by supernatural means. The microdisturbance >>from the energy keeping vessels alive without food is just very micro... > >neat, when mass-energy conversion is violated. I can certainly see that. >kinda. Still doesn't explain the disturbance from killing the crunchies, >though. Damage to the crunchies involves adding energy to the corporeal system. You could probably also rationalize it a bit more esoterically as measuring the entropy increase in the corporeal due to energy added from outside the system, which also takes care of things like the effects of human death (above and beyond the basic damage disturbance, which can be attributed to the attack energy involved). Come to think of it, as a semi-scientific measure of disturbance, entropy (in the general, non-thermodynamics sense) is probably a relatively good one. >Hrm. I was thinking that Celestial powers would block magic -and- psi, >because of their "God/Devil" origin. That and Songs are so much more >expensive to fuel compared to Psi and Magic, in general. That's a GM call; we defaulted the expectation the other way, since magic, psi, and superpowers are already defined to be orthogonal in GURPS. If celestial powers trump them, then a) they should be more expensive than they already are, probably, maybe via Unusual Background), and b) it tends to downplay the uncertainty about whether celestials are, or are not, really just powered-up ethereals. (That's an indirect effect, but one I believe would be derived from the "feel" of the change.) Songs generally have substantially more power per Essence than magic spells do, so I'm not sure I'd make them even *more* powerful. Note, however, that I recommended that celestials be able to have Magery in a campaign including "normal" magic. GURPS magic is generally relatively weak, but *extremely* useful due to the frequency with which you can use it. It's hard to assess relative power, but it was our feeling that celestials wouldn't feel "miraculous" enough by comparison with mages if they could *only* do Songs, just for the sheer quantity of use of "normal" magic. I'm not sure allowing Songs to trump other paranormal powers fixes that as much. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 23:40:28 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) > >First thought was "Yippee!!" > >then, "Holy Sh**, this binding sucks ass." > >It's a lay-flat binding. It's SUPPOSED to look like it's falling apart. >Ditto the Compendium 1. Unless it's losing pages, in which case I will >ask around to see who's in charge of Bad Bindings. > > >First comment: What the heck is up with the HT/Total Forces parallel? I > >mean, why did you (Elizabeth, Walter) decide to bind up Essence up in HT? > >Average celestials and average humans come in at approximately the right >Essence values. We couldn't base it on Total Forces since Forces are no >longer a game mechanic -- humans only have a few levels of Power >Investiture, >so that doesn't work. Yeah, I saw that. > >I have a PC we'll be converting > >Ahhh, conversion evils. Grandfather his previous Essence, is what I'd >suggest, and ignore the HT limit there. Consider the Essence limit there >for GURPS-native characters. Well, the rules provide. (if the character would have less essence due to a low HT, raise the HT to accomodate it) >[...] > >especially since there's no apparent metaphysical connection between HT >and > >Essence. > > Clearly it's how _sturdy_ the connection between the >corporeal (the vessel/host) and the supernatural (Essence) is! The >more sturdy the connection, the more Essence can be moved through it >before the vessel short-circuits! > >(But why does that apply in the celestial realms, too?) > >Uh... Go 'way, kid, ya bother me. > that's what I thought :) > >For the Impudites ability, I think they should just be able to "absorb" > >Fatigue from humans (reflecting the "tired/drained" effect this seems to > >have on people) and would only be able to convert about, oh, 1d-4 of the > >Fatigue drained or something, because, well, it's ineffable. > >That was Impudite Drain Ability 1.5. Various elements, from playtesters >to SJ (I forget the proportions) shot it down with extreme prejudice. >(Frankly, that was the only part of the Essence/Fatigue mesh that I >really liked. Oh, well.) Yup, oh, well. > >Second comment: related to the above, I'm surprised that there's not an > >upper limit on levels of Essence control equal to your levels of Power > >Investiture (Corp+Ethe+Cele). > >One word: Soldiers. Soldiers only get Corporeal Power Investiture, >remember? Oh, yeah. Bleh. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 19:24:37 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine At 10:34 PM -0500 1/5/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: >[ethe form] >Hrm, and that's why dream elements /do/ count? (IIRC, dream elements can >sometimes swiggle out of dreams and whatnot) They're just little icons as well for a disembodied consciousness... >>Yes, I think it's inelegant too, but it's in the _main book_ that way, >>and I know that ethereal forms _used_ to exist in a previous draft, >>so I know they were taken out deliberately. >> >>No, you don't have to conform to that, but there it is. > >Well, I think the main problem comes down to "definition of 'form'" >Form as used in the main text refers to "a set form", whereas I was reading >it as "a form of existance," like "phyisal form/body" or "celestial >form/body" that acts upon and is acted upon. From what I recall, it's still not a "form." It's a representation. Yes, it's hairsplitting, but there you have it. Hunt down Derek and ask _him_ what he meant.... O:p (The Ethereal Form option was kind of neat -- Cherubim, for instance, looked half-animal, half human, like Sphinxes and whatnot. That's actually an option straight out of Gustav's Dictionary of Angels!) >>You can change your ethereal representation with a Will roll, IIRC, >>according to the Marches. Or at least I interpret one rule that way. > >AFAIK, that makes perfect sense. Stuck it into GIN, too, IIRC. >[ethes with cele forms] >>Hang on, let me go get the book... p. 52, celestials in the Marches, >>main book., for "no eth form." p. 53, The celestial - Heaven & Hell, for >>"some spirits have celestial forms". > >Any other guidelines for /which/ spirits have vs have-not? No -- it _could_ be referring to _celestial_ spirits only, like demonlings and relievers. I've never had to rule on it, and I'd rather not start _right_ this instant... O:> >Wouldn't a cele form be *necessary* in order to take Soul damage? ('cor, >this isn't true, look at the Calabim of Lust attunement, which allows the >demon to inflict Soul damage through a Vessel.) That's right -- humans don't have a celestial form either, till after they die, you see. >>[...] >> >>Maybe I'll suggest that you could find a Pyramid article in it... O:> >> > >> >bleh. I don't even remember what the Hell we were talking about by this >> >point. >> >>Modifying IN to be more like INS/MV with the One Body schtick, but not >>quite the "Get killed, spend the next few hundred years waiting for >>another body" method. >>Schoolwork. Feh! Feh! Pity, that. > >We'll see, my load doesn't look /that/ bad . . . yet. Luck. >>>>[...] >>>> >>The GURPS IN book might actually help >>>> > >>>> >That sounds good. I'm still waiting for my copy. -sigh- >>>> >>>>Bummer! >>> >>>yeah . . . oh, well, they say anticipation's half the fun, right? >> >>"They" are idjits. O:< > >Actually, I would agree with them. :p What, you're one of those people who never shakes your Xmas presents? (I hate anticipation. I want instant gratification. O:> ) >>[...] >> >>Have I mentioned my attempt to convert a Werewolf back _into_ White >> >>Wolf dots? Had to take a chainsaw to the result (she had about umpty >> >>zillion dots), but she was a perfectly legal GURPS W:TA character.) >> > >> >heh heh yeah. That's because, I believe, GURPS allows for point >>spill-over >> >between attributes, skills, and powers. Not true in the White Wolf >>system. >> >>Something like that -- also, the system of conversion simply wasn't >>designed >>to go both ways. (A major flaw, I think.) So my optimaxing of the WW >>character (I wonder if the base cost for a WW character was based on some >>of the conversions... Hmmm...) caused it to go off-the-scale when I tried >>to reverse the dots-to-skill conversions. > >Hrm, I wonder if something similar will be true in GIN. Check it out -- I don't _think_ so, but mostly because the rule is "Convert your best 10 skills or so." >> >>[...] >[blowing pts on skills] >>Oh, quite. Like >>http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/characters/Space/CaradocWu.html . >>(15 points.) > >what? no statistics course? Next semester! O:> >Well, okay, skills don't have to be expensive. Unless the player wants them >at a higher level than Wu's. Well, there is that. O:> (I should note that minmaxing at 15 points is _ESSENTIAL_. At 100 points, it's only a good idea. O:> ) >[blowing pts on advantages] >>Give me 150 points and I do dat. (Advantage Girl! The Swiss Army >>Psi/sunmage/ >>Animal Empath Horseback rider extraordinaire!) > >again, I lament the lack of advantages in In Nomine. Me too, sometimes, but considering the space they had to work with... >>Or, for a more reasonable version, you can check out >>http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/characters/Space/XenoSolutions/Kelly.html . > >did, it's cool. I look forward to the powerful Psis in GIN. I'm scared. O8> >[psi mortals in IN] >>Sounds a _lot_ like the fluffstuff we've been doing... The Space character >>is speculating that "disturbance" is what happens when mass-energy >>conservation is violated -- such as happens when Essence (energy) is >>used, or something is broken by supernatural means. The microdisturbance >>from the energy keeping vessels alive without food is just very micro... > >neat, when mass-energy conversion is violated. I can certainly see that. >kinda. Still doesn't explain the disturbance from killing the crunchies, >though. Psionic disturbance of the hyperfield. >>Oh, of course. (Though we _aren't_ putting resonances and psi on the >>same "band" in our fluffstuff. Makes the psi-shielded techie more grumpy.) > >Hrm. I was thinking that Celestial powers would block magic -and- psi, >because of their "God/Devil" origin. That and Songs are so much more >expensive to fuel compared to Psi and Magic, in general. That's possible; we didn't explore that possibility. (The hypnogogic projector did a number on Kobal, though, till he re-instantiated with all his shields up. O:> ) >>[McGuffins] >> >And in my first game, the Box was the MacGuffin (remember that EDG?) >>only, >> >it was USED in the end of the campaign. >> >>That happens sometimes, too! > >yeah, well, I thought it was pretty cool. The box started off at just the >reason the Ofanite of Trade was present. Then, it became what everyone >fought over. Definite McGuffin, there. - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:16:11 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> January 3, 2001. - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > BTW, feel free to rip any of these apart if need be. > Olivia Twain > Pagan Soldier (Ceres) Rip it apart?!? Rip it off is more likely. This goes in the file of stuff I want to use if I ever get to run an IN game again. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "If you want someone to take off their armor, you must first put down your sword." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:24:04 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> There's a reason why they let Vapula create most of the toys. - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Force Brooches I like it. One quibble: > Only mortals may use a Force Brooch. Since you specified that Undead can use these, and Undead aren't mortal, I assume that you mean that only _Humans_ can use a Force Brooch. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "If you want someone to take off their armor, you must first put down your sword." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:34:39 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal Spirits question - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > is there > any real reason why an ethereal would find it useful > to impersonate a figure from a divine religion, > besides of course the usual "hiding out" factor? Impersonating a divine figure could give an Ethereal a short-term Essence supply as it co-opts worshippers from Heaven. Angels frown on that sort of thing, of course. It could also be used as a long-term strategy for gaining worshippers, but that's _very_ risky. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "If you want someone to take off their armor, you must first put down your sword." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 00:34:57 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) > >First comment: What the heck is up with the HT/Total Forces parallel? I > >mean, why did you (Elizabeth, Walter) decide to bind up Essence up in HT? > >That was one result of the Great Fatigue/Essence War. [Essence & HT] >Essentially, we had to create an Essence stat (the Essence Control level), >but additional levels of that simply came out too cheap, so it needed >an external limit somewhere. Power Investiture couldn't be used, since >it doesn't give Soldiers enough Essence. That pretty much required it to >either be an additional advantage (which would cost significant points but >confer no game benefit -- can you hear the screaming yet...?), or something >based off existing attributes somehow. And it couldn't be an additional >advantage, since mundane humans wouldn't have it. (We were *not* allowed >to require additional stats or advantages to be added to normal humans.) Hrm, and yet Impudites were allowed to drain Essence from humans, who don't have Essence. Oh, but they just merely lack "Essence Control" . . . yeah, and that's why humans in GURPS Basic Set are able to spend all their nonexistant points all at once and get a bonus to their rolls. - -sigh- At least Blood Points make sense, since humans in basic GURPS *do* have blood. Yeah, I follow you. >So it had to be an attribute, or some combination. Of the four GURPS >attributes, HT seemed the best fit, since it's the closest thing >GURPS has to a measure of "life energy". ahhhhhhhh another reason why vampires in GURPS Blood Types drain HT It's also the most >otherwise-unused attribute, since nothing depends on it except hit points >and a very few skills. (I certainly didn't want to use ST, since any >combat-oriented character would tend to have a rather high ST.) ha ha ha, yeah I also >wanted something as a separate driver for HT in conversion, since Strength >wasn't really a good one. Lessee . . . Total Forces comes to mind, but probably wouldn't work well for uneven force-distributed characters. >I suppose I could also have used the mechanic I finally would up with to >replace Forces for Kyrios, which was total attribute levels, but the >math would have been messier, and I'm not sure the result would have >been much better. It would have to be something like (ST+DX+IQ+HT)/6, >I think. Giving Corp Forces-heavy PCs a definite advantage, which appears to currently be the case so far for the IN characters we've converted. > >I have a PC we'll be converting who'll have a MUCH higher HT than he >would > >otherwise (from 8 to 15), and he'll be taking 7 levels of reduced hit >points > >to make up for the difference. It feels /very/ artificial. > >It is, to some extent. The problem is that there are some fundamental >incompatibilities between GURPS mechanics and IN mechanics. While it's >always possible to represent an IN character in more or less equivalent >GURPS terms, sometimes the contortions required are klunky. Yup. (Look at >how some of the IN Discords have to be handled.) ha ha ha, yeah. IIRC, the original "Limitations" in INS/MV didn't have an associated level . . . -sigh- >The conversion process is by no means perfect. It was the best I could >come up with that wasn't terribly complex and did a fairly reasonable job >with more or less average celestials. It's cool. In my case, I mean, overall, the conversion feels pretty solid to me, it just has kinks. > >As it stands right now, without a house rule, in regards to the > >afore-mentioned character we'll be converting, his player going to feel > >jacked because while other higher IN Strength members of the group with >be > >able to "buy up" their levels of Essence Control (because the IN > >Strength/GURPS HT conversion will give them HT much higher than 14), > >especially since there's no apparent metaphysical connection between HT >and > >Essence. > >They still can't raise their Essence Control without a Superior's >intervention what page is that on? I haven't found that yet. you can GM-fiat that to some extent. The conversion >process needs a fair amount of GM fiat anyway, since there are things >in GURPS that cost points that don't even exist in IN, but make sense for >some characters to have. Oh, yeah, totally. Our angel of War is getting a Martial Arts package by GM-Fiat. > >I can see that it would make sense, kinda, for mundane humans, in order >to > >determine how much Impudites could drain (and for them to spend on >actions). > > But . . . other than that, there appears to no reason not to make the > >number of levels of Essence Control = # lvls of Power Investiture > >(Corp+Ethe+Cele). (See comment #2) > >Soldiers don't work right if you do that. That was my first thought. >I couldn't find a non-klunky fix to that, and neither did the playtesters. >(There was a *lot* of playtest discussion about Forces and Essence.) Wish I'd been there for it. >Power Investiture <> Forces -- it represents only one aspect of Forces, the >ability to use Songs and get a performance bonus for them. yup >Basically, what's happened here is that the most fundamental stat in IN >(Forces), which drives all character generation, doesn't even exist in >GURPS. >In particular, attributes are the primary stat in GURPS, and totally >unconstrained except by total points. I thought about using total point >value as a Force replacement, but that died quickly -- too many advantages >and disads change the total point value, but shouldn't affect Forces. nod >So I had to construct all the effects of Forces in IN from other GURPS >mechanics, and it had to work for un-tweaked mundane humans. This >effectively >decoupled all the various things that derive from Forces in IN, and >adding a whole bunch of external constraints would have been far more >klunky than the single one I did add. Power Investiture > >Third comment: congratulations on keeping Choir costs within about 150 > >points of each other, and Band costs within 50pts or so. And seeing as >the > >outlier is the Kyriotates, I feel more justified in not allowing >Kyriotate > >PCs. > >I wasn't trying to keep the costs within any particular range, that's >just how they worked out. Well, so much for my compliment. crap For the most part, they reflect my opinion >of the relative game strengths of the Choirs and Bands, and the costs >worked backwards from that to price the four core celestial advantages >(Cel. Knowledge, Influence, and Tracking, and Body-hopping), and then >worked forward again with all the enhancements and limitations. makes sense to me There was >a bit more to it than that, of course, since there were various experiments >in building the powers from existing GURPS advantages. Bright Lilim of Destiny Attunement (from Fall of the Malakim, iirc): I guessed the Lilim of Destiny Attunement as being a Symphonic Knowledge: paths to Destiny/Fate ability with Limitations (only with Resonance use - -30%) for 21pts total. It was either that or add an enhancement to the Bright Lilim Resonance, the +% I'd be pretty clueless on. Suggestions anyone? - -Perry, kfc perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:38:41 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Dead Presidents - --- Whistling in the Dark wrote: > At 10:25 AM -0800 1/4/01, Maurice Lane wrote: > > > >True... but the Loas _aren't_ necessarily tied to one > >culture just because their primary worshippers are. > >I'm postulating here that the syncretic spirits are > >actively (if discreetly) trying to break into virgin > >territory here. So, your average whitebread suburbian > >housewife won't worship Legba? Fine. Give her Elvis > >and Betty Crocker ... and sneak in the rest of the > >pantheon later (maybe to her, maybe to her kids). > > I do something somewhat similar across the board, especially > with > cumulative effects. For example, while a person buying a pair > of Nike > Sneakers, all by himself, isn't enough to give Nike Essence, > millions > of sneakers, plus millions of "swooshes" emblazoned on > everything > under the sun, plus recognician of the brand across the board, > and > commercials, and even the whole "it's gotta be the shoes" > mentality > where an athlete does his *best* and believes the shoes are > making a > difference all combine to make the Goddess of Winged Victory > much > stronger than most of her fellows. Hermes gets his own hits > off of > F-T-D florists..... > > -- > Eric Alfred Burns - > > Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "If you want someone to take off their armor, you must first put down your sword." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:47:05 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Dead Presidents - --- Whistling in the Dark wrote: > At 10:25 AM -0800 1/4/01, Maurice Lane wrote: > > > >True... but the Loas _aren't_ necessarily tied to one > >culture just because their primary worshippers are. I have to disagree. Ethereals are created by belief, and belief is influenced by culture. Basically, if it's not the product of the cultures that produced Voudoun and Santeria, it's not a Loa. It should be noted here that the sycretic faiths do use figures from Western culture (see John Fromm, the messiah figure from the Cargo Cults). But these figures are always filtered through the lens of the native culture. Which doesn't stop strong belief in certain figures in generating Ethereals based on them. It's just that (IMHO) these figures are Dream Fragments, not Loa. > I do something somewhat similar across the board, especially > with cumulative effects. For example, while a person buying a > pair of Nike > Sneakers, all by himself, isn't enough to give Nike Essence, > millions > of sneakers, plus millions of "swooshes" emblazoned on > everything > under the sun, plus recognician of the brand across the board, > and > commercials, and even the whole "it's gotta be the shoes" > mentality > where an athlete does his *best* and believes the shoes are > making a > difference all combine to make the Goddess of Winged Victory > much > stronger than most of her fellows. Hermes gets his own hits > off of F-T-D florists..... All of which are examples of existing Ethereals co-opting Human belief. The spirits mentioned above are only taking advantage of Western culture -- they were created by the beliefs of the Greeks. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "If you want someone to take off their armor, you must first put down your sword." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:50:06 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Minor choirs collection - --- Laurent wrote: > I know it's been asked before, but is there a full collection > of minor choirs/bands somewhere? Nope. Wind, Theft, Stone and one other which escapes me at the moment are on www.phargle.com. Moe has some on his site, I'm sure. And there are other IN websites out there that I haven't seen. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "If you want someone to take off their armor, you must first put down your sword." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jan 2001 00:53:48 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re: Re:IN> The Redeemers [NPCs, no stats] On 5 Jan 2001 13:48:56 -0800 Casca wrote: >On Fri, 05 January 2001, "-=|horsefly|=-" wrote: >> thanks. i was going partly for that and partly for >> an air of mystery. i didn't want *too much* on The >> Redeemers to be rock-solid information. >... because you never know when your players will be reading >the list, neh? ;) yet another reason why i didn't want to post stats for them, yes. 'if it has stats, we can kill it,' my ass! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:32:40 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Angels and Free Love >Uh...isn't this exactly the sort of thing under which an entire >Choir "piled it in"? Well the Grigori are guilty not really of just having...umm carnal relations with mortals...and lots of them. They were guilty of siring abominations and not destroying them on the spot....plus ignoring the rest of the Choir's deprivations. I think personally Eli approves of mortal's loosening up and as his rite shows Creationers seem to think that it is for some reason a good thing for angels (despite being sterile) to sleep with as many mortals as they possibly can. I'm not sure exactly why but I guess it encourages humans to sleep with humans more and angels to appreciate mortality. Novalis with her whole Hippie persona I think is also definately devoted to the idea of free love and mortals being as happy, bubbly, and generally snuggled up as close as possible as they can be...thus why I pointed out I think she should have the Angel of Free love in her service and why she would support Muriel for the word. Her angels after creationers probably have the most affairs as they view them as intimate not "causal" and probably would take great offense at them being labelled so. Gabrielle through Soldekai no doubt would support an angel of Free love though not especially dramatically as passion between mortals has to feed the word of fire and mortals obsessing without quenching their thirst has got to annoy them to no end...especially those who end up getting driven to cruel things to satisfy those thirsts. Michael couldn't honestly care less though I imagine he would support the angel just to spite Dominic...he might also see a vague reason that "legalizing loose sex" might decrease demand to Andre. Same with Marc though I'm fairly sure he's still trying to control prostitution with no effort or help from the rest of Heavengly heirachy....well nah I'll be nice....in Marc's opinion the only fare trade for sexuality is love. He's a good little Mercurian but I'd say he'd still support her Dominic finds this obsession angels have with corporeal pleasures disgusting and harps on the Grigori with subtle references to Eli the entire trial Jordi votes for free love just to make mortals more like animals, anything to reduce their oddity to him Jean finds the word irrelevant and votes against it Laurence is of course appalled as a Malakim he views that love should only be shared in the bounds of oaths. Thus he fully supports the views love is meant to be in marriage and promotes it well. Yves goes Hmmmmmmmm and makes a series of arcane pointless statements that could go either way Christopher blushes. Janus says "Rock on, you go girl" and spites Dominic David is agaisnt it because it disrupts the family unit which is the rock of society though he encourages intimacy among his soldiers....I imagine David has the most consistant bloodline based service of soldiers in heaven. Khalid of course is against it though he'll get some serious flack from his Ofanim for it. Blandine votes with Novalis because Andrephalus repulses her so Zadkiel goes with her allies because the mission really doesn't matter to her Litheroy is currently abcent becuase he's digging for Dinosaur bones in the Anatartic but probably would vote against just because he's a Seraph >Marc. Just Marc. >Elohite Angel of Salvation >("An angel of loose sex?" *blink* *pause* *sound of a paradigm >shifting without a clutch*) Novalis is fun that way :-) - -Charlemagne The Hungersite: http://www.hungersite.com Help Sudanese refugees by making a donation to the "Bridge of Hope" fund 1800-424-8644 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 21:19:11 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Fallen Purity In the Angelic Players Guide it mentions Orfiel as Uriel's highest ranking serviator among that Choir and that he fell after Uriel's ascension. Since it's said no servant of Purity has ever fallen....is this not generally known or what? - -Charlemagne The Hunger Site Help Sudanese refugees by making a donation to the "Bridge of Hope" fund 1800-424-8644 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 21:29:26 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Elohim of Novalis Out of curiousity can a plant detect demons and the undead perhaps better than a angel? I argue that a tether's plants would taste of the flavor of a tether and the side of the war while even a servant of Asmodeus with humanity attunement would feel "off" to a planet. Am I right here? - -Charlemagne The Hunger Site Help Sudanese refugees by making a donation to the "Bridge of Hope" fund 1800-424-8644 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 18:32:08 -0800 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> Fallen Purity Charles Phipps wrote: > > In the Angelic Players Guide it mentions Orfiel as Uriel's highest ranking > serviator among that Choir and that he fell after Uriel's ascension. > > Since it's said no servant of Purity has ever fallen....is this not > generally known or what? It's not that no servitor of Purity has ever fallen, its that, like Malakim, they *couldn't* fall. But I think this effect ended with Uriel's departure to the Upper Heavens. But here's a question I haven't really thought about (and that I don't believe has been covered in any book); do Uriel's rites still work? Servitors of Gebbeleth could still use their rites while he was still aliveish, even though he was by no means active. Cheers, Ryan ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2007 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.