From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Feb 2 17:27:20 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09134 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 17:27:20 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA14982 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 17:29:27 -0600 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 17:29:27 -0600 Message-Id: <200102022329.RAA14982@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2043 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, February 2 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2043 In this digest: IN> The Welcomers (A human trait) IN> Typical Moe Lane "I sorta Need to know in a hurry the answer to an odd question" request. Re: IN> On Remnants Re: IN> Typical Moe Lane "I sorta Need to know in a hurry the answer to an odd question" request. Re: IN> February 1, 2001 (ML) IN> Songs that need work... IN> Malakim and Revenants Re: IN> February 1, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> Transformation into a Demon-HELP! Re: IN> Natural Ingredients (was Celestial insults) Re: IN> Celestial insults Re: IN> Typical Moe Lane "I sorta Need to know in a hurry the answer to an odd question" request. Re: IN> Typical Moe Lane "I sorta Need to know in a hurry the answer to an odd question" request. Re: IN> On Remnants Re: IN> February 1, 2001 (ML) IN> February 2, 2001 (MW) Re: IN> February 2, 2001 (MW) IN> [MEDIA] Hey, if the Shedim get "Fallen," why not? Re: IN> February 1, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> [MEDIA] Hey, if the Shedim get "Fallen," why not? Re: IN> On Remnants Re: IN> Celestial insults Re: IN> February 2, 2001 (MW) Re: IN> Celestial insults Re: IN> Songs that need work... IN> Dead Humans and Remanants Re: IN> Awesome angel-drawing tool. Re: IN> Dead Humans and Remanants Re: IN> Dead Humans and Remanants Re: IN> Dead Humans and Remanants Re: IN> On Remnants Re: IN> Dead Humans and Remanants Re: IN> Dead Humans and Remanants ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 23:19:12 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: IN> The Welcomers (A human trait) The Welcomers (In GURPS, this is essentially a variant of the 10-point advantage Channeling, and is probably worth about 3 points in IN. It should be taken at character creation, as the effects are different and probably unable to be learned, although there is always Superior intervention.) Many Kyriotates are familiar with a number of perceptive people who are willing to lend out their bodies for the angel's inhabitance; the rare people they have colloquially named the Welcomers, however, go one step better. They actually make it easier for a Kyriotate to possess them, when informed and willing. Either after noticing the Kyriotate's desire for entrance, or at a prearranged time, the Welcomer attempts to accept the Kyriotate into their body. If the Welcomer makes a successful Will roll, he opens his being to the Kyriotate and allows them to possess automatically -- furthermore, control of the body is so natural the Kyriotate need only invest 1 Force in controlling the host! (In G:IN, no contest of Will need be rolled, and treat the host as ST 6.) Obviously, a long-term relationship with an identified Welcomer holds benefits for the Kyriotate. What the Welcomers get out of it, on the other hand, is varied, and sometimes difficult to pin down. Sometimes they will ask the angel for favors, like solving a difficult problem; some feel that they are connected to "the spirit world;" a fair number, once identified, are made aware of the War and simply wish to use their God-given talent to help out Heaven. It is generally noted that most Welcomers have fairly selfless and giving personalities in other ways, as well -- the characteristic seems to be part of their basic nature. Welcomers are also able to negate the usual contests required for the Song of Possession, or for the Shedite resonance. (Shedites do not gain any ability to possess with fewer Forces.) Few, however, wish to give out their bodies so freely to pagan spirits or, worse, a demon, and those that do usually are either being coerced or have made deeply selfish deals with a regular possessor. (Philosophers will note that this is one thing no Shedite can ever force a person to do, since it is the very act of possession being contested.) Whether the Welcomer is acting out of fear or greed, Kyriotates finding such an individual often try to break whatever hold the interloper has over them. William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:02:47 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Typical Moe Lane "I sorta Need to know in a hurry the answer to an odd question" request. Does anyone know whether groundhogs show up as any kind of supernatural figures in any mythology? Totem animal, god, demigod, avatar, divine messenger, anything at all would be good. URL a plus. :) Thanks in advance. :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 00:11:29 -0500 From: "Tyto Alba" Subject: Re: IN> On Remnants >Find a Demon Prince reckless and brave enough to try. Not even Saminga is >that stupid. Malakim can't fall, and I can't think of any Demon Princes who >would try to screw with the way things are to try to prove otherwise. > Kobal offered to do it in Fall of the Malakim. Of course, he may not have been serious. tyto a. Habbalite Knight of Derision Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:19:34 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Typical Moe Lane "I sorta Need to know in a hurry the answer to an odd question" request. http://www.pantheon.org/mythica/articles/b/brigid.html I searched for groundhog in the Encyclopedia Mythica. I have a strange feeling I'm going to pay for this with my sanity. - -- Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus If you have time to kill, why not kill it at http://ucsub.Colorado.edu/~grothtp/In.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 23:25:07 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> February 1, 2001 (ML) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Lane" To: Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 9:50 PM Subject: IN> February 1, 2001 (ML) [snip hilarious stuff] > After all, the Malakite is a wizard with the drums, > the Cherub makes a perfect backup singer, and the > Seraph can do almost frightening things with a base > guitar... *sigh* Qui custodiet ipsos custodes? - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:49:08 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Songs that need work... ...and I'm tired of staring at them. Feedback, as always, entreated, nay, begged. :) Moe Songs of Karma (Secret) Janus first discovered these Songs: Valefor (predictably) promptly stole them. Yves and Kobal have been known to use them, as well. Recently, Christopher was formally given access to them, as partial thanks for his personal deleting of the Demon of Kidnapping (prudent demons know never to interfere with Christopher, as he'll never stop going after someone once he starts). All three Songs can only be performed on living things (which, oddly enough, apparently include ethereals, celestials, constructs and the undead). Duration is 10 minutes, and the performer must touch the target in order to use the Song. Corporeal The target will get back everything he or she gives to the physical universe. If she attacks it, it attacks her: if he helps it, it helps him. While the Song is in effect, the target will suffer in combat the same amount of damage that he or she inflicts. However, if the target successfully restores hits to another person (whether through medicine or a Song of Healing), he or she will regain an equal amount of lost hits. More mundanely, a person affected by this Song will have a plus or minus to all skill and characteristic rolls, depending on whether or not their current actions are benefiting or harming their surroundings (bonus or penalty equal to the check digit). Ethereal The target will be treated as he or she treats others. In game terms, the target receives a reaction penalty or bonus equal to twice the check digit from everyone they meet. The GM will have to determine whether the target merits a bonus or a penalty, of course. Celestial The target becomes an agent of Karma itself. While in effect, anything (with the exception of the use of a resonance) done to the target will immediately rebound in equal intensity upon the doer. This Song also can play merry hell with one's celestial resonance: any resonance roll associated with the target is at a penalty equal to the check digit. Bonus: the Wind, Destiny, Dark Humor Available: Christopher, Janus, Kobal, Valefor, Yves Essence Requirement: 5 Degree of Disturbance: 2 plus the target's Forces ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 02:00:57 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Malakim and Revenants "Never allow yourself to be captured by Hell" This oath in my opinion says something *BAD* about what happens to Malakim who are captured and I think it has something to do with Forces. IMHO a Malakim who has demonic forces grafted onto him immediately becomes a "dark malakim" (See David E's webpage) which results in the dark hearted creature having the doubly large problem of being stuck in Hell with his heart stuck in Hell and his oaths troubled indeed. Instictively I think the Malakim will take the oaths to never suffer an evil to live and never surrender but of course he'll rack up dissonance fairly quickly in Hell which is probably why Asmodeus makes sure he keeps several of these remenants tied up in his torture chambers....he's still trying to make them fall and Kronos is VERY interested in the prodject. Thus far all he has are quite possibly the most dissonant creatures in existence who either break free and slaughter everything or keep getting more dissonance....a number of divine interventions have occured in Hell which snuff out the dear boys into the Higher Heavens, free them, or make them sane AND free so Asmodeus is very annoyed by the prodject's thus far failure. Vapula basically has the same end and rewards handsomely servants who bring him Malakim remanents...he occasionally even READS their observations if they've done some testing of their own (a rare and disturbing honor) Unlike Asmodeus Vapula doesn't really have any interest in making Malakim fall PER SAY so much as he's interested in dissecting them and seeing what makes them tick, thus when a Malakim gets especially dissonance Vapula has on occasion released them on normal cities and frankly you can tell their handiwork a mile away. It's rumored riots, earthquakes, and in at least three western town's dissapearence cases...are the products of these creatures who are invariably put down by their kin. *** Bright Lilim can't be solely created or so I understand from the remenants of Ethereals. Lilith apparently has to add at least 3 of the forces in question to make a Bright Lilim from a revenant and she usually demands mucho big geas for it. See "Revelations Cycle" the Final Trumpet for what I mean. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 01:51:06 -0600 From: "Tafka J." Subject: Re: IN> February 1, 2001 (ML) At 7:50 PM -0800 02/01/01, Maurice Lane wrote: > Nigel > Mercurian of Creation IST Flowers [...] > After all, the Malakite is a wizard with the drums, This would explain how the drummer keeps dying, yet always comes back as someone else who plays just as well. Tell me, do they turn their music up to Eleven too? I did mention you a) need serious help, b) are so _wrong_, c) should sign the contract in your _own_ blood, d) should learn to be afraid. . . For when the Games Operation Director smiles, you know it's already too late. };;;> Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur # http://www.thrifty.net/~tafkaj/in-nomine/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:25 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: Re: IN> Transformation into a Demon-HELP! > David Edelstein wrote: > Charles Phipps wrote: > > While this is noncannon I've never seen anything other than flavor to > > say that it can't be done > > In Nomine-wise, the reason why humans wouldn't be made into demons, even > if it's theoretically possible, is that Lucifer would probably face a > second rebellion in Hell if he allowed it. OTOH, provided it was explained to the Princes and selected servitors beforehand, there's no reason why a few humans shouldn't /believe/ they've become demons. - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:25 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: Re: IN> Natural Ingredients (was Celestial insults) Michael Walton > --- Tyto Alba wrote: > > Speaking of which, isn't opium a flower? > > It comes from a species of poppy, as I recall. So does heroin > -- might even be the same plant, but I'm not sure. Something to > think about the next time somebody claims that something must be > good for you just because it's all natural. Same flower: heroin is made from opium, essentially; it was first marketed as a more effective painkiller that wasn't addictive. Boy, did the drugs company get that one wrong... - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:25 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: Re: IN> Celestial insults Michael Walton > --- Janet Anderson wrote: > > Everyone knows the standard celestial insults (listed > > somewhere on the Steve > > Jackson Games page), such as "blackwing" for Malakim, "hyena" > > for Servitors > > of Dominic, etc. But I'd like to know if other players have > > spontaneously generated their own, as above. > > I've heard angels of Trade referred to as "bean counters" and > demons of Fire as "pyros" -- and you'd be amazed how often the > B-word is applied to Lilim. And everyone should know that it's most unwise to call a servitor of David "Lawn Ornament". - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 07:11:46 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Typical Moe Lane "I sorta Need to know in a hurry the answer to an odd question" request. - --On Thursday, February 1, 2001 10:19 PM -0700 Tim Groth wrote: > > I have a strange feeling I'm going to pay for this with my sanity. > I have the strange feeling you're not the only one. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Behold! Be ye not afraid! I am a groundhog of the Lord...") ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 07:09:57 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Typical Moe Lane "I sorta Need to know in a hurry the answer to an odd question" request. - --On Thursday, February 1, 2001 9:02 PM -0800 Maurice Lane wrote: > Does anyone know whether groundhogs show up as any > kind of supernatural figures in any mythology? Totem > animal, god, demigod, avatar, divine messenger, > anything at all would be good. Groudhog. Divine messenger. GROUNDHOG?! Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("You can make the hurting stop aaaaannnnnyyyyyyy time now, Moe.") ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 05:35:17 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> On Remnants - --- Bradley Paranial wrote: > But what happens when a Demon Prince tries to fix a Remnant > Malakite? You get a really confused Malakite who sees a Demon Prince and promptly gets reduced to powder as he futilely tries to fulfill his first Oath. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 05:41:47 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> February 1, 2001 (ML) - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Nigel > Mercurian of Creation IST Flowers This is the sort of thing that makes me enjoy this list so much. But... > After all, the Malakite is a wizard with the drums, > the Cherub makes a perfect backup singer, and the > Seraph can do almost frightening things with a base > guitar... ...this alone was worth the effort of reading this post. Well done as usual, Moe. Oh, and you spelled Candlemas right. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 05:48:28 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: IN> February 2, 2001 (MW) I meant to write up a Wiccan in honor of Candlemas. When I started writing, this is what came out. So much for good intentions. 0:> Jasmine Delacroix Sorcerer of Love Forces/6 (Jasmine has bought up her Characteristics independently of Forces in all three categories): Corporeal/1 (Strength/3, Agility/4) Ethereal/3 (Intelligence/7, Precision/8) Celestial/2 (Perception/5, Will/6) Charisma +2 (sex appeal) Skills: Alchemy/3, Artistry (Photography/5, Sex/3), Chemistry/1, Dreaming/4, Emote/2, Knowledge (Afro-Caribbean Theology/2), Languages (English/2, French/3*, Spanish/1), Lying/3, Seduction/4, Swimming/1 *Native Language Songs: Healing (Corporeal/2), Sensation (Corporeal/3) Attunements: Sorcery Rituals: Forked-tongue Tea (contains the Lying Skill), Healing Balm (contains the Corporeal Song of Healing), Itching Powder, Pleasure Oil, Virility Potion (contains the Artistry: Sex and Seduction Skills); Itching Powder and Pleasure Oil contain variant uses of the Corporeal Song of Sensation. Rites: Spend two hours having consensual sex; seduce a total stranger. Worship Rites: Serve as a "mount" for the goddess during sex; dance in the nude. Jasmine is a minor mambo (voudoun priestess). She first came to the attention of the Loa while still a young girl in her native Jamaica; she has been a lucid dreamer since the age of 10. Jasmine's powerful dreams - especially the sensual ones that began at puberty - piqued the interest of several Loa. Many spirits vied with each other to gain Jasmine services, but it was the love goddess Erzuli who finally won out. Jasmine began as a Soldier of Love and was particularly effective. Erzuli decided to maximize her resource and made Jasmine a Sorcerer. This newfound power (and the panache with which Jasmine wielded it) made Jasmine a prime candidate for Erzuli's efforts to expand into new territory. Delacroix packed her bags and moved to St. Louis, where one more beautiful Black bachelorette would be welcomed with open arms. Since moving to the United States, Jasmine has become a successful photographer specializing in erotic art. This gives her ample opportunities to promote Erzuli's Word and to perform her Rites. Jasmine also acts as the leader of Erzuli's Servitors in St. Louis. This favored status manifests as frequent visits from Erzuli herself; Jasmine is one of the spirit's favorite "mounts" in the Midwestern U.S. While there are several more powerful voudounistas in St. Louis, the experienced ones know to always treat Ms. Delacroix with respect - - one never knows whether one is addressing Jasmine or Erzuli. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 09:53:37 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> February 2, 2001 (MW) Michael Walton wrote: > This gives her ample opportunities to promote Erzuli's Word > and to perform her Rites. Erzuli, an Ethereal, has a Word and Rites? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:04:24 -0500 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: IN> [MEDIA] Hey, if the Shedim get "Fallen," why not? From ZENtertainment: > 'JINN' RIGHTS ACQUIRED > According to The HOLLYWOOD REPORTER, TOUCHSTONE Pictures > has acquired to Matt Delaney's upcoming St. MARTIN'S PRESS > novel JINN. The horror novel, described as being in the vein > of ANGEL HEART and FALLEN, involves a Boston homicide detective > tracking down an ancient Arabic demon he may be an accomplice to. > JINN will be published this fall. > http://www.stmartins.com Jason ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 10:03:31 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> February 1, 2001 (ML) So what do Nigel and his Triad think of Stryper and other Christian heavymetal bands? (Not that there are a lot of them. But that makes them easier to notice individually.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 2001 07:20:57 -0800 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> [MEDIA] Hey, if the Shedim get "Fallen," why not? On Fri, 02 February 2001, Jason Schneiderman wrote: > > From ZENtertainment: > > > novel JINN. The horror novel, described as being in the vein > > of ANGEL HEART and FALLEN, involves a Boston homicide detective > > tracking down an ancient Arabic demon he may be an accomplice to. Hey, it's only fair. The Malakim got "Unbreakable". - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:50:04 -0500 From: "Jason F. McBrayer" Subject: Re: IN> On Remnants On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 08:50:13PM -0600, Bradley Paranial wrote: > But what happens when a Demon Prince tries to fix a Remnant Malakite? My guess is that it breaks, and you get a demon of a random Band, or for a remnantized elder Malakite (one that was of another Choir before the Fall), you get a demon of the Band corresponding to its original Choir. I'm sure Vapula has tried this already, and if anything interesting happened, you would have heard. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@carcosa.net | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:24:18 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Celestial insults Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 08:02:03 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial insults - - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Santiago" To: Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:23 AM Subject: Re: IN> Celestial insults >>Well, some demons call Angels "tea-drinkers", >>because it is well known that all demons enjoy the >>caffeinated goodness of strong coffee. >They've never looked at the War camps in the Groves, >then. There would be no surer way to destroy >Heaven's military readiness than to cut off the >coffee supply. (Much a similar condition applies in >the US military.) > >And Gabriel drinks a brand of espresso so caffeinated >that they've got to put it in ceramic mugs, 'cause it >eats right through metal. Interesting idea for a bit o'fluff: Superior-brand coffee. Instant Force-increaser... assuming you survive.* I'll have to think about that one some more. :) Moe *Saminga actually makes the best coffee in Hell. Go figure. ;) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:43:37 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> February 2, 2001 (MW) - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Erzuli, an Ethereal, has a Word and Rites? As quiet as it's kept, _lots_ of Ethereals have Words and Rites. The Purity Crusade weakened the Ethereals by depriving them of worshippers, but Heaven has no power to strip them of Words or Rites. That's why Uriel was so keen on destroying Word-bound spirits. The other half of that argument is that the Hindu Pantheon and the Loa are the two most powerful groups of Ethereals (still having active worshippers tends to have that effect). Many if not most of the Word-bound Ethereals still active on the Corporeal plane will be from one of those two pantheons. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:47:51 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Celestial insults - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Interesting idea for a bit o'fluff: Superior-brand > coffee. Instant Force-increaser... assuming you > survive.* Coming soon from Haagenti breweries -- Essencespresso! Good to the last -- URK! ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 2001 12:19:37 -0800 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Songs that need work... On Thu, 01 February 2001, Maurice Lane wrote: > Songs of Karma (Secret) I'd add the restriction that the song may be performed only on others, never one oneself. Otherwise, the twink factor becomes enormous. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:09:43 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Dead Humans and Remanants Okay this will sound like an odd question but exactly what is the difference between a human who has had his forces grafted to as yet mindless/barely celestial demon and a human who just exists in Hell. I mean technically all that was there is you isn't it correct? The same applies to the Remenants and old celestials Is the orginal angel technically dead if all his orginal forces have been lost in battle but he has others that have been added. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 21:32:07 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Awesome angel-drawing tool. >http://www.phargle.com/angels.html > >(Clockwise, starting with Persephone: Malakite of Fire, Malakite of Wind, >Ofanite of Fire, Cherub of the Sword.) > >Go to http://www.heromachine.com and choose a superhero, and you're off. > >Ben Most excellent. /This/ is certainly now among my Favorites. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:00:15 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Dead Humans and Remanants - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > Is the orginal angel technically dead if all his orginal > forces have been > lost in battle but he has others that have been added. This is one of those questions that canon hasn't answered and probably never will. All that is known (by the characters within the game world, that is) is that stripping a being's Ethereal Forces destroys its memories -- it is technically the same being, but doesn't remember who or what it used to be. Stripping Celestial Forces destroys the soul -- even when new Forces are grafted on, it's not quite the same person. This leads to some interesting possibilities. Disclaimer: the following is opinion only; all errors are the products of the author's twisted imagination. 1) A Remnant or Human soul with all Ethereal Forces gone and some Celestial Forces remaining -- you get an amnesiac with a damaged personality (i.e. some of the original personhood was lost with the lost Celestial Forces); 2) A Remnant or soul with all Celestial Forces gone and some Ethereal Forces remaining -- this is perhaps a different person who remembers things about the former person (the memories are experienced from the 2nd- rather than 1st-person perspective, perhaps); 3) All Ethereal and Celestial Forces are stripped -- in this case, the being might be said to be truly, irrevocably dead. Even if all Corporeal Forces are left, all that's left is a shell. The upside is, a Superior who wants to make a brand new Servitor can save some energy by recycling the leftover Corproeal Forces. In all of the examples above, grafting demonic or angelic Forces onto a Human soul doesn't turn the Human into a Celestial. Grafting demonic Forces _might_ make the Human more selfish, while angelic Forces could have the opposite effect (the degree of which would depend on the number of Forces grafted). Ultimately, all of this stuff comes down to a GM call -- there's no help in canon*. If you want turning Humans into Celestials to be possible in your campaign, go for it. *Actually, canon implies that Humans can't be converted into Celestials. It just never gets around to saying why. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 17:17:13 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: Re: IN> Dead Humans and Remanants - -----Original Message----- From: Charles Phipps To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Friday, February 02, 2001 4:30 PM Subject: IN> Dead Humans and Remanants >Okay this will sound like an odd question but exactly what is the difference >between a human who has had his forces grafted to as yet mindless/barely >celestial demon and a human who just exists in Hell. I mean technically all >that was there is you isn't it correct? I think the major difference is that the Human Soul dwelling in Hell is still intact and in basic control of itself. Meanwhile, a Human stripped of his Forces which are then grafted unto a newly fledged Demon is no longer in control of it's own actions. It's no longer a person, just a Demon who thinks it's a person. >The same applies to the Remenants and old celestials > >Is the orginal angel technically dead if all his orginal forces have been >lost in battle but he has others that have been added. I think the problem is somewhat different, but the same result applies: The original Angel is technically dead and gone, and what is left in it's place is a new Angel with the memories of the original. - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 17:56:01 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Dead Humans and Remanants At 2:00 PM -0800 2/2/01, Michael Walton wrote: >*Actually, canon implies that Humans can't be converted into >Celestials. It just never gets around to saying why. I thought it outright said it in the Corporeal Player's Guide somewhere... The reason is that human souls and celestial souls are fundamentally different. Celestials are facets of the Symphony; even the most human celestials have certain alien aspects. Or, to put it a different way, humans don't ever take dissonance; nothing is _alien_ to a human's nature. Nothing breaks it in the way that celestial natures can break. But you just can't put a blob of clay into a ring and call it a gemstone. The clay won't shatter the way a gem might, if pushed too far, and it won't glitter the way the gem will, either. (Yeah, I was just reading Genaissance, and the "Son of Clay" stuff stuck with me.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:07:54 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> On Remnants At 8:50 PM -0600 2/1/01, Bradley Paranial wrote: >Ok, as far as I have fugure things out, If an Archangel adds a Celestial >force to a demonic remanant; the resulting celestial shall be an angel >belong to whatever Chior corresponds to the Band that the demon the remnant >is a remnant of belonged to. If a Demon Prince does the same to an angelic >remant, same deal. (Actually, if I had to pronounce canon on this (since I don't think I have already, but I've had a cold and still do so I could be all muzzy), I think I'd rule that the Superior could get roughly whatever he wanted; basically, he's got Forces here that are strongly flavored in a particular direction. So if he adds in Celestial Forces and steps back, he's likely to get something as close as possible to what was, nature wise. (I.e., a Bal/Seraph, Cherub/Djinn, etc.) However, at the root, those Forces are just random Forces which happen to be lying around and the Superior could Force-fledge the being into anything the Superior could make anyway. So it used to be a Cherub; you want a Balseraph. Hey, Balseraph it is. (Watch out for Fate Balseraphs so revived...)) >There is however the Question of Lilim and Malakim. Lilim are not so bad >Arachangel attaches Force to remant Lilim he gets a free Bright, no messy >Redemption, no VERY shady deals with uberb*tch Demon Princesses. (It's >enough to make Domonic dace the jig when it happens). I'm really not going to be ruling on Lilim. That's the logical response, but it's not entirely For Sure -- the "Lilim Force" is generally deemed to be Ethereal, and that's what carries the selfish "Lilithian" meme. You might get a Bright -- who instantly (or swiftly) Falls. You might get a Bright with all the mess and fuss of redemption then and there. Or you might get a new Bright. Are Geases Ethereal Discord? Would they stay with the Remnant and into her new incarnation? What kind of a GM do you think I am, here? ("An evil one.") Hush, you. Do you really think I'd saddle an ex-remnant Bright with Geases? ("Yes.") Darn tootin' I would. >But what happens when a Demon Prince tries to fix a Remnant Malakite? Is this canon I am about to speak unto the masses? Nah. I'd probably rule that either they got a Malakite (probably Discordant), who might be trickable and might not be, but would have the default Malakite oaths, or they couldn't get anything but a Band; the Forces were just free Forces and they will take their definition from the infernally twisted ones the Prince donates. (Then again, maybe that's how Lilith makes Lilim; she has to find (or make) a remnant Malakite, and then... O;> ) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:51:46 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Dead Humans and Remanants - --- Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > you just can't put a blob of clay into a ring and > call it a gemstone. The clay won't shatter the way a gem > might, if pushed > too far, and it won't glitter the way the gem will, either. Whoa -- love that analogy. > (Yeah, I was just reading Genaissance, and the "Son of Clay" > stuff stuck with me.) I suppose we'll forgive you just this once. 0;;;> ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:27:32 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Dead Humans and Remanants >>Is the orginal angel technically dead if all his orginal forces have been >>lost in battle but he has others that have been added. > >I think the problem is somewhat different, but the same result applies: The >original Angel is technically dead and gone, and what is left in it's place >is a new Angel with the memories of the original. > >-Exit the LoneWolf If the angel had died in the meantime, I'd agree -- that is, if at any time he was totally without Celestial Forces. However, if one means a 9-Force angel who, over the centuries, has occasionally lost a Force at a time and gotten a new one to replace it, and has in total lost 9 of these Forces, which happen to match their original complement... well, no. I mean, a human eats, wastes, breathes, bleeds, etc. We're adding and losing material all the time. Our brains, at various phases of our life, add brain cells, subtract brain cells, and rearrange brain cells. Throughout, we're still the same person (I hope -- the thought of a Heaven filled with millions of copies of "a" person at different stages of life, or of constantly dying and being replaced by a new being who thinks it's me, both scare me no end). The same with an angel. A single Celestial Force is sufficient to bear their soul, and additional Celestial Forces only strengthen it. I'd also say, although this is rather esoteric, that Forces are probably like particles in that, unless you've had them under continuous observation, you can't tell which one is which. So there's no way to tell which is the "original" Force in a set. You could go further and declare that there *isn't* an "original" Force in the set. It's all a matter of how they're configured and interacting. Vapulan physicists are doubtless having field days with this constantly, of course. Jeanites are probably, in their more restrained way, digging into the fundamental questions as well. William ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2043 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.