From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Feb 10 13:29:25 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11134 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:29:24 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA06320 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:31:43 -0600 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:31:43 -0600 Message-Id: <200102101931.NAA06320@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2054 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, February 10 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2054 In this digest: Re: IN> The Bun-Bun Festival IN>Factions Adventure Seed IN> Los Angeles, CA, USA In Nomine Tournament IN> Human Words/Symphonic Words IN> Superiors in WW2 Re: IN> Human Words/Symphonic Words About AIs [Was Re: IN> Medieval Jean] Re: About AIs [Was Re: IN> Medieval Jean] Re: About AIs [Was Re: IN> Medieval Jean] Re: About AIs [Was Re: IN> Medieval Jean] Re: IN> Angels in the Architecture Re: IN> Discord: Floating Re: IN> LEGION Re: IN> Medieval Jean Re: IN> Human Words/Symphonic Words Re: IN> Angels in the Architecture Re: IN> Discord: Floating Re: IN> Medieval Jean Re: IN> The Ministry of Love Re: IN> Free Lilim and Servants Re: IN> Medieval Jean Re: About AIs [Was Re: IN> Medieval Jean] Re: About AIs [Was Re: IN> Medieval Jean] Re: IN> Human Words/Symphonic Words IN> Question about Wrath of God IN> Re: About AIs Re: IN> Re: About AIs Re: IN> Medieval Jean Re: IN> Free Lilim and Servants Re: IN> Re: About AIs Re: IN> The Bun-Bun Festival Re: IN> Re: About AIs Re: IN> LEGION Re: IN> The Ministry of Love Re: IN> Re: About AIs Re: IN> Angels in the Architecture ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 23:07:09 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> The Bun-Bun Festival Just two questions... Who's Zoe serving? And what about Sasha? - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:10:32 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN>Factions Adventure Seed I like it alot. NASSSTYYYY business for all parties concerned. In any case I'm fairly sure that Belial refuses to commit to open war with Fufur right now because he's fairly sure that while such a war's outcome isn't in doubt he's fairly sure that unlike after Oannes and Demogorgon that he may end up getting "moshed" by someone else. Now that Gabriel's insane and he intends on taking HER down this is just a bad time all round for him. Fufur is still expanding and becomming a full Prince... Malphas must be delieriously happy with these two, it's quite possible they may ultimately bring complete war between these two and hell. (I personally think Baal will fall behind Belial as Fufur is hostile to him and Belial receptive) - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:11:42 -0800 From: "Sean McCarthy" Subject: IN> Los Angeles, CA, USA In Nomine Tournament The LA Airport Westin is the home to our main local roleplaying convention. From Friday Feb. 16th to Monday Feb. 19th. There will be five IN tournament qualifying games and the final on Sunday. I am helping to run the tournament this year. Any level of experience is welcome and we have converted quite a few people in our time. Plus, it's a fun convention in general. Admission to the convention is something like $35 for the weekend or about half that for single day. If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask me. This tournament has been running at every convention since IN came out, IIRC. Lots of fun to be had by all. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:28:40 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Human Words/Symphonic Words Well Alex I must admit I rather agree with you on this. Let's look at some words that have existed before humanity was even CREATED.... Fear War Fire Stone Wind Oceans Valor Dreams Love Humor Knowledge Destiny While Stone, Fire, Wind, and Oceans were powerful even in primordial time with a Corporeal connection. Valor, Humor, and Love are not exactly the best type of words for a bunch of dinosaurs if you catch my drift and Eli's choir the "Friends of Man" didn't even have a man yet to exist with. One must presume that the Metatron told of humanity's comming well before they actually arrived like in JRR Tolkien's the Simarillon. (Anyone want to write up a setting for pre-Fall? It might be amusing) I disagree though that the War has very little affect on Mankind Alex though because like it or not it colors every daily aspect of our lives the struggle between "Selfishness" and "Selflessness" and it's so powerful indeed I think that it's actually a word shared with Asmodeus and it's STILL making them the two most powerful Princes in Hell. Though it's quite possible Baal covers the more militant actions and Asmodeus the more subtle and they are more serpate. One needs look no farther than the countries where religeous conflict is a main concern for day to day life and the Bible Belt of the USA where movies are regularly shunned by thousands for "offensive" content yet many are drawn because of it to see Baal and Asmodues's words in action. Basically humanity adds essence I think TO words that makes them more powerful. Flowers will exist with or without humanity unless they all die out and so will relics but flowers is much more powerful when it has connotations of courtship, love, and peace that Novalis embraces. Novalis would be changed perhaps into a militant Malakite if flowers suddenly became a symbol for the war between Heaven and Hell completely without peaceful connotations if she wanted to keep her archangelic status I think because otherwise she's just the angel of the word of scientiffic properties of flowers existence. Baal is the Demon Prince of the War and as long as the War exists between celestials he will be strong but every time a mortal lifts up a big rock, spear, or gun and says "YOU ARE EVIL AND I WILL KILL YOU FOR IT!" he is enstrengthened. Words that dissapear "Hardcore music", "Stale Bong water", "Buggy whips" are all things which are entirely human made and only their essence makes them exist....if they dissapear then so does the celestial. The Angel of Dinosaurs indeed might still exist if a few dinosaurs developed souls and live peacefully in Jordi's savahnah. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:35:27 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Superiors in WW2 My comments were in no way a deflammation of the Catholic church which did much and I apologize for my words. I do believe the Pope was in an uneviable position however given that he lived in Italy and that was the province and domain of a pawn of Hitlers. Now for Heaven I still think the conflict went down as I said truly in my report as "not involved much" for an Archangel doesn't mean they didn't color all aspects of the war it basically means that they didn't take the bull by the Horns and directly guide the course of events. The Hundred Years war ended because Michael himself laid the smack down on the British through his agent in Jean de Arc. The Crusades were sparked and fanned by a number of mystic profits such as Peter the Hermit and others, can you say Soldiers of the Sword? Magog, Baal, and Gebnubath pratically made the Philistines and other Baal worshiping cultures from the ground up. I still think that servitors were coordinated in every aspect of World War 2 but the major policy actions such as the Invasion of Poland, the Nuclear Bomb, the attack on Pearl Harbor...etc were all ultimately decided by humans and while General Patton may have defeated Hitler because he was presented the spear of Destiny by some celestials after it was taken from Hitler (It's how it was won in my game) for the most part celestials were concerned with the individual picture. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:37:56 -0800 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> Human Words/Symphonic Words From: "Charles Phipps" <> The Word of Love included celestials--like, say, Blandine and Beleth. <> ? Kronos? <> There are dinosaurs on Jordi's Savannah. --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:37:38 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: About AIs [Was Re: IN> Medieval Jean] - -----Original Message----- From: William J. Keith To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Friday, February 09, 2001 5:32 PM Subject: Re: IN> Medieval Jean >>What's the future use? Dunno. Here's some stuff I thought about... >>Maybe they get to use their resonance on sapient programs. Maybe they >>get to "jack in" in Cyberpunk style, without any equipment. O:> >> >> >>--emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >>RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > >Once sapient programs actually exist, I think any Mercurian should be able >to use their Choir Resonance on one, since they can already use it on, >e.g., ethereals. I've done some thinking about that kinda stuff before. Wouldn't an AI be just another form of Ethereal Spirit, basically? They're essentially just beings of thought and information, after all. - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:59:18 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: About AIs [Was Re: IN> Medieval Jean] >I've done some thinking about that kinda stuff before. Wouldn't an AI be >just another form of Ethereal Spirit, basically? They're essentially just >beings of thought and information, after all. > >-Exit the LoneWolf Nah, they'd be corporeal beings. Humans have souls and minds which are housed in fleshy bodies and expressed via biochemical impulses. AIs would have minds (souls? Doo-bee-doo...) housed in plastic-and-metal bodies expressed via electric impulses. Ethereals are wildly different. They don't exist on Earth, they don't have bodies necessarily, they have abilities like Essence Control as part of their fundamental makeup, etc. Now, one interesting question might be what an AI would look like if it went to Heaven after it was destroyed. ;^) William ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:27:10 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: About AIs [Was Re: IN> Medieval Jean] At 6:59 PM -0500 2/9/01, William J. Keith wrote: >Now, one interesting question might be what an AI would look like if it >went to Heaven after it was destroyed. ;^) Maybe an AI couldn't go to an afterlife at all if it had any backup copies. Anywhere. Assuming they could go to an afterlife anyway. Assuming a survival meme, would _you_ want to be the first Ai to make the attempt? O:> - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 18:08:59 -0600 From: "Bradley Paranial" Subject: Re: About AIs [Was Re: IN> Medieval Jean] >From: "Rolland Therrien" >> >I've done some thinking about that kinda stuff before. Wouldn't an AI be >just another form of Ethereal Spirit, basically? They're essentially just >beings of thought and information, after all. > Given that Intrepatation of the Nature of AI. Mankind in the IN universe will never be able to use it. Tech: "I do not what happened. The AI porgram it's just gone" Tech 2: "It was working fine yesterday" Tech: "Yeah I know must be that weird virus again. What was it called, *Thinks* Zadeemum or something like that." Tech 2: "Actually I think it was "Purify" whatever back to the drawing board." Brad _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:22:39 -0500 From: "Michael" Subject: Re: IN> Angels in the Architecture >>> And for angel characters, getting these angels who >>> have been out of the loop for nearly a thousand >>> years acclimated to the modern world can provide >>> many adventures all by itself. > > >> Nice idea. The only problem is that it would be easy >> to get these angels to come home. We can assume >> that every Superior knows the Celestial Song of >> Tongues, and they might be willing to shell out that >> amount of Essence for something that important. A >> Song of Calling could do almost as good a job for >> less Essence. > > Hmm. Good point. I suspected someone would come up > with a Song that would poke holes in that. I need the > Liber Canticorm! Anyway, how bout this as a quick fix: > the angels were provided with artifacts to screen > their prescence, to prevent premature detection by > demons. A side effect was that it cut off any > supernatural means of communication until they broke > cover. The problem I see with this is that each of these angels will have a Heart sitting in his Superior's cathedral, nd the Superior can look into it (or have someone else do so, if he's busy), and tell where you are. From the main rulebook, p. 137, in the "Angels' Hearts" box: "If you've gone missing, and a friend can reach your Heart, a few moments of meditation will show him, inside the globe, where you are." I know Superiors are busy, but I can't see them forgetting about Servitors on corporeal duty for nearly a thousand years, especially if any of them have friends who might come asking after them. Also, if there *are* artifacts that will shield celestials from detection reliably, they ought to be in wide use. - -- Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:26:52 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Discord: Floating - --- Chris Bergstresser wrote: > Corporeal Discord: Floating This is a really dirty trick to play on angels of Faith. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:29:18 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> LEGION - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > * Legion before his "great ascension" in which he would absorb > all of > mankind into himself absorbed the entire summation of his > servitors, souls, > and his principality into himself which made him the most > being (possibly) > in the cosmos as he added mortal soul after mortal soul to > himself. Any > celestial or mortal he added to himself he could keep the > forces of to strengthen himself including the word. This makes sense -- it fits Legion's MO and is very much in keeping with his world-sized ego ("I am everything, and everything is me..."). It also has the advantage of explaining what happened to his Servitors. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:30:27 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Medieval Jean - --- Marc Bowden wrote: > Dissonant for the impressOR, but not for the impresEE. True, but an Elohite would be uncomfortable with it anyway. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:35:38 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Human Words/Symphonic Words - --- Alex Liddell wrote: > Take Baal for instance. His Word is The War. Humans in > general have no > clue about the war between Heaven and Hell, let alone support > it. How is it > then that his Word is powerful and that he is so powerful? It > certainly > isn't because The War is forefront in human society and at the > tip of everyones tounges. No, it's because Baal's Word isn't limited to the War between Heaven and Hell. It also encompasses the War between Good and Evil -- and that concept is universal to Human cultures. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:37:08 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Angels in the Architecture - --- Kelly Pedersen wrote: > how bout this as a quick fix: > the angels were provided with artifacts to screen > their prescence, to prevent premature detection by > demons. A side effect was that it cut off any > supernatural means of communication until they broke > cover. Ah -- that would do it. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:57:50 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Discord: Floating At 5:26 PM -0800 2/9/01, Michael Walton wrote: >--- Chris Bergstresser wrote: >> Corporeal Discord: Floating > > This is a really dirty trick to play on angels of Faith. Maybe the level of the Discord should add to their dissonance rules, much as some others (like Paranoia and Balseraphs) add to CHoirs. - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:57:44 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Medieval Jean At 5:30 PM -0800 2/9/01, Michael Walton wrote: >--- Marc Bowden wrote: >> Dissonant for the impressOR, but not for the impresEE. > > True, but an Elohite would be uncomfortable with it anyway. I wouldn't assume that. They're masterfully sneaky little manipulators, generally. So what if they're playing on someone else's emotions to get them to do what's in the best interests of the Symphony? It's in the best interests of the Symphony, isn't it? - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:39:47 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Ministry of Love If you wanted to incorporate the Soulmate Database from Warehouse 23 into IN, these are the folks who should have it. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:40:57 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Free Lilim and Servants - --- Matthew Cutter wrote: > Given Lilith's Word, I find it hard to believe > she would condone her Servitors having > Servants in the traditional sense. No, but long-term contracts would be fine. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:44:05 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Medieval Jean - --- "William J. Keith" wrote: > Jeanites > might in particular be able to apply their natural resonance > to a computer > (the hardware, rather than the software) to get "relationship" > information. Nice. This makes for a good "More Sophisticated Use of Resonance." ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:48:48 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: About AIs [Was Re: IN> Medieval Jean] - --- Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Assuming a survival meme, would _you_ want to be the first Ai > to make the attempt? O:> Ah, but a survival meme would only be present if a) the AI were programmed with it or b) the AI somehow transcended its programming. In the latter case, it might very well have a soul and the capacity to enter Heaven. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:08:50 -0600 From: Matt Trent Subject: Re: About AIs [Was Re: IN> Medieval Jean] Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Now, one interesting question might be what an AI would look like if it > >went to Heaven after it was destroyed. ;^) > > Maybe an AI couldn't go to an afterlife at all if it had any backup copies. > Anywhere. If I were doing it, I'd just assume that creating a copy isn't much different from asexual reproduction. After all to draw upon fiction the Emergency Medical Program's Holodoc (in Star Trek: Voyager and one of the Next Gen movies) which was the same program while being identical initially would theoretically become much different though environment of the ship each was on. After all, amebas go to heaven don't they? Matt Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 21:03:48 +1300 From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> Human Words/Symphonic Words > > Take Baal for instance. His Word is The War. Humans in > > general have no > > clue about the war between Heaven and Hell, let alone support > > it. How is it > > then that his Word is powerful and that he is so powerful? It > > certainly > > isn't because The War is forefront in human society and at the > > tip of everyones tounges. > > No, it's because Baal's Word isn't limited to the War between >Heaven and Hell. It also encompasses the War between Good and >Evil -- and that concept is universal to Human cultures. From what I read in TFT, Baal's Word is exclusivly the War between Heaven and Hell. Not a conceptual War between Good and Evil, if it were, then he would be the most powerful Celestial that ever lived. Much more so than Lucifer. He would embody the dark and light, not just one or the other. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 02:08:43 -0600 From: "Bradley Paranial" Subject: IN> Question about Wrath of God Heres how I read the attunement: Spend 3 Esscence and the Damage on your next attack Against a Faithless Human or Demon is doubled. (After all modifiers. Once had an NPC do about 48 body hits damage with the bloody thing). So is it the next attack that hits or the attack that imediatly follows activating the attument, and missing or or having it sucessfully blocked meaning you just wasted Esscence? Brad _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 02:51:08 -0600 From: Santiago Subject: IN> Re: About AIs >>Assuming a survival meme, would _you_ want to be the first Aito >>make the attempt? O:> > > Ah, but a survival meme would only be present if a) the AI >were programmed with it or b) the AI somehow transcended its >programming. In the latter case, it might very well have a soul >and the capacity to enter Heaven. You're assuming AIs would be programmed. This is quite dubious, given the track record of programmed systems and the general intractability of codifying knowledge and thought. Actual intelligent machines will be (in all probability) evolved, not created, so a survival meme will almost certainly be present. In IN terms, I'd argue that a sentient being accreting out of electrons in a computer is no different than a sentient being accreting out of molecules in a womb. Thus, AIs would clearly have souls. The question is what souls? Would they come from the same pool as human ones? Could a human that neither achieved Destiny nor Fate get reincarnated as an AI? How about vice versa? This leads to all sorts of crazy plots and ideas, such as undead AIs... - -- Santiago ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:15:27 -0500 From: "Tyto Alba" Subject: Re: IN> Re: About AIs >Could a human that neither achieved Destiny nor Fate get >reincarnated as an AI? How about vice versa? This leads to all >sorts of crazy plots and ideas, such as undead AIs... > Now THIS is just lovely. tyto a. Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:03:03 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Medieval Jean - --On Friday, February 9, 2001 20:57 -0500 Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 5:30 PM -0800 2/9/01, Michael Walton wrote: >> --- Marc Bowden wrote: >>> Dissonant for the impressOR, but not for the impresEE. >> >> True, but an Elohite would be uncomfortable with it anyway. > > I wouldn't assume that. They're masterfully sneaky little > manipulators, generally. So what if they're playing on someone > else's emotions to get them to do what's in the best interests of the > Symphony? It's in the best interests of the Symphony, isn't it? > Not sneaky, just....expeditious. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:16:40 -0500 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> Free Lilim and Servants >Anybody got any opinions? > >Given Lilith's Word, I find it hard to believe >she would condone her Servitors having >Servants in the traditional sense. > >I mean, all her Servitors are on a contract >basis according to the main book and FoTM. > >Geased temporary Servants, I can wrap my >mind around, but I'm not so certain about >permanent servants. Considering she allows her daughters to choose to be bound to a Demon Prince (which is as easily tightly binding as slavery in most senses), I think she won't exactly care about any of Adam and Eve's brats doing the same thing. It was their choice to enter service with one of the Lilim, they have only themselves to blame... - -- Mike Bruner-- bruner@delaware.infi.net "But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the East, and Juliet is AHHH THE SUN!!!" *FOOM* --Vampire theatre ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:17:29 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: Re: IN> Re: About AIs - -----Original Message----- From: Santiago To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Saturday, February 10, 2001 3:58 AM Subject: IN> Re: About AIs >>>Assuming a survival meme, would _you_ want to be the first Aito >>>make the attempt? O:> >> >> Ah, but a survival meme would only be present if a) the AI >>were programmed with it or b) the AI somehow transcended its >>programming. In the latter case, it might very well have a soul >>and the capacity to enter Heaven. > > You're assuming AIs would be programmed. This is quite >dubious, given the track record of programmed systems and the general >intractability of codifying knowledge and thought. I still say an AI would mostly be an Ethereal Spirit, especially if one considers Cyberspace to be another part of the Marches. Much like Ethereal Spirits, AIs aren't dependent on corporeal shells, as long as their programming and memory survives, which it would do in the Marches. Personally, I'd like to see a Virtual Cyberspace kinda realm in the Marches. Maybe a Jean/Blandine joint project, once those two settle their differences? - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:37:04 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> The Bun-Bun Festival - --On Friday, February 9, 2001 23:07 +0000 Charles Glasgow wrote: > Just two questions... > > Who's Zoe serving? > Zoe's got to be associated with Dark Humor somehow, if only as the punchline. > And what about Sasha? > *absolutely straight face* Why, she works for UP-EX, of course. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:37:47 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: About AIs At 2:51 AM -0600 2/10/01, Santiago wrote: > You're assuming AIs would be programmed. This is quite >dubious, given the track record of programmed systems and the >general intractability of codifying knowledge and thought. Actual >intelligent machines will be (in all probability) evolved, not >created, so a survival meme will almost certainly be present. OOC, do you have sources for the above? I'm friendly with a number of people involved in heuristic processing projects, designed to model intelligent processing and ways of learning and communicating -- so they can then introduce problems and learn, in part, how *we* respond to brain damage. I think the (self) evolution of intelligent machines is a far more dubious process than the idea that machines will be improved, programming techniques will improve, and eventually responsive modeling will achieve the appearance and interactivity of sentience. As for souls and true sentience... well, we'll see, won't we? > In IN terms, I'd argue that a sentient being accreting out of >electrons in a computer is no different than a sentient being >accreting out of molecules in a womb. I'd be more likely, in IN terms, to cause such sentience to be born out of the belief of humanity in the possibility of such a thing happening -- IOW, a kind of Ethereal. And so the question would remain as to whether that had a soul or not, since they couldn't enter Heaven. But, this is a pure style kind of thing -- mine is no more valid than yours. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:42:52 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> LEGION - --On Friday, February 9, 2001 17:29 -0800 Michael Walton wrote: > > This makes sense -- it fits Legion's MO and is very much in > keeping with his world-sized ego ("I am everything, and > everything is me..."). It also has the advantage of explaining > what happened to his Servitors. > *slurp!* Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Ewwwwwww.....") ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:46:41 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> The Ministry of Love - --On Friday, February 9, 2001 17:39 -0800 Michael Walton wrote: > If you wanted to incorporate the Soulmate Database from > Warehouse 23 into IN, these are the folks who should have it. > I don't know. Personally, I think the forces of Heaven would be horrified at having to use Microsoft SQL for *anything*. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:59:32 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Re: About AIs >I still say an AI would mostly be an Ethereal Spirit, especially if one >considers Cyberspace to be another part of the Marches. Much like Ethereal >Spirits, AIs aren't dependent on corporeal shells, as long as their >programming and memory survives, which it would do in the Marches. >Personally, I'd like to see a Virtual Cyberspace kinda realm in the Marches. >Maybe a Jean/Blandine joint project, once those two settle their >differences? > >-Exit the LoneWolf There certainly could be Ethereal Spirit AIs; they just wouldn't have been programmed on any corporeal computer. However, the kind of AIs people could study and work with on Earth are dependent on their corporeal shells. If an AI is housed in a standalone computer, destroying its body -- the hard drive containing the software, presumably -- would kill it. One on a network would be a lot harder to kill, but then there you are. Now, you could destroy the rest of the computer and then insert the HD into another computer to reactivate it, which is I think the reasoning behind Beth's saying that an AI wasn't truly dead as long as the software is stored somewhere. In the meantime, it'd probably be essentially comatose. It's about equivalent to keeping someone's brain alive and transporting it into another body. I'm fairly sure an AI "born" (programmed, copied, whatever) on Earth would have Corporeal Forces, tied up in the equipment necessary to run the software. (Old analogy: the human mind (Ethereal Forces)is the software, the human body (Corp. Forces) is the hardware....) A VR realm in the Marches is a neat idea, and probably one which will be forming out of persistent usage in pop culture soon if it hasn't already. I also like the idea of both Jean and Blandine being interested in it as a joint project; these are two Archangels who should definitely be having more to do with each other. It takes both dreamers and planners to bring a great idea to full fruition. However, such a realm would IMO only be loosely tied to an actual Cyberspace network on Earth. It would obey different laws, and its "programmer" would be the collective ideas of humanity, whereas corporeal "Cyberspace" would merely be a system of interface with a network of computers. The Ethereal Cyberspace would be made up of Ethereal Forces and digest Essence; the "real" corporeal Cyberspace would be software and digest electricity. Humans would access the Ethereal Cyberspace via sleeping and dreaming; they would access corporeal Cyberspace by turning on a computer and using I/O devices. Now, a *Tether* between the two, "located" at a Web address and usable only by AIs or people who are "jacked in," which sends users to sleep (in the case of the AI, to an energy conservation pattern) and their minds to the Marches' VR Realm... that could be pretty cool. ("Tom? Wake up, man, you're asleep at the console." "Oh, sorry. I was having the weirdest dream about hacker angels using lightning swords to kill sentient viruses." "Tom, you have got to get a date soon.") Undead AIs... a curious notion. If they have souls, and I figure any free-willed being has a soul (probably a reasonable definition in In Nomine), then their Celestial Forces could probably get tied up in the Corporeal Realm just like a standard Undead. The question is, what would they gain from it? They're already unaging, and that's a big price to pay for some Songs and Essence control. (Mmm... Zombi h4X0r sKr1p+s....) William ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:27:35 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Pedersen Subject: Re: IN> Angels in the Architecture - --- Michael wrote: > > >>> And for angel characters, getting these angels > who > >>> have been out of the loop for nearly a thousand > >>> years acclimated to the modern world can provide > >>> many adventures all by itself. > > > > >> Nice idea. The only problem is that it would be > easy > >> to get these angels to come home. We can assume > >> that every Superior knows the Celestial Song of > >> Tongues, and they might be willing to shell out > that > >> amount of Essence for something that important. > A > >> Song of Calling could do almost as good a job > for > >> less Essence. > > > > Hmm. Good point. I suspected someone would come up > > with a Song that would poke holes in that. I need > the > > Liber Canticorm! Anyway, how bout this as a quick > fix: > > the angels were provided with artifacts to screen > > their prescence, to prevent premature detection by > > demons. A side effect was that it cut off any > > supernatural means of communication until they > broke > > cover. > > The problem I see with this is that each of these > angels will have a Heart > sitting in his Superior's cathedral, nd the Superior > can look into it (or > have someone else do so, if he's busy), and tell > where you are. > > From the main rulebook, p. 137, in the "Angels' > Hearts" box: "If you've gone > missing, and a friend can reach your Heart, a few > moments of meditation will > show him, inside the globe, where you are." Hmm. Another good point. Darnit, I knew that part about the angles being unfindable was the weak link. However... What, exactly, does the Heart show? Does it show what you are seeing right then? Does it show a sort of bird's eye view of the area you are? Does it show a map of the world with an X in your location? If its the first two options, then that might not be much help. Can you tell one church from another just by seeing the interior? Sure, the clothing and skin color of the people inside might give you a clue to the general location of the church, but beyond that? Further, does a Heart let an examiner _hear_ what's going on around the Heart's owner? If so, then language is another good clue, and people are likely to mention location details to each other while in the church. But if no sound comes through, then that option isn't viable. > I know Superiors are busy, but I can't see them > forgetting about Servitors > on corporeal duty for nearly a thousand years, > especially if any of them > have friends who might come asking after them. > > Also, if there *are* artifacts that will shield > celestials from detection > reliably, they ought to be in wide use. Maybe it only shields you from detection if you're perfectly still? That would make it pretty useless for the average celestial, but it would be right up these guy's alleys. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2054 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.