From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Feb 12 11:26:37 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06023 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:26:37 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA20521 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:29:23 -0600 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:29:23 -0600 Message-Id: <200102121729.LAA20521@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2056 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, February 12 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2056 In this digest: Re: IN> The Oathbreaker Re: IN> The Oathbreaker Re: IN> Healing question Re: IN> The Oathbreaker Re:IN> Angels in the Architecture Re: IN> February 6, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> February 6, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> Hypothetical question IN> A Theory of Kronos Re: IN> Hypothetical question IN> Another reason Vapula has no Calabim : Re: IN> Hypothetical question IN> The official word has been given, it seems.... Re: IN> A Theory of Kronos Re: IN> Healing question Re: IN> Angels in the Architecture IN> Angel of Patience IN> Re: Hardcore or "What's Lucifer's deal with stupid Princes?" Re: IN> Superiors in WW2 Re: IN> The official word has been given, it seems.... Re: IN> Angel of Patience Re: IN> Angel of Patience Re: IN> Angel of Patience Re: IN> Angel of Patience Re: IN> A Theory of Kronos Re: IN> Angel of Patience ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:03:17 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> The Oathbreaker It says in Superiors 1 that it's rumored that every once in awhile Laurence will join the Eternal Swords to finish off an especially troublesome demon. If this guy doesn't qualify, I don't know what does. Janet _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:15:04 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> The Oathbreaker - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet Anderson" To: Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 6:03 PM Subject: Re: IN> The Oathbreaker > It says in Superiors 1 that it's rumored that every once in awhile Laurence > will join the Eternal Swords to finish off an especially troublesome demon. > If this guy doesn't qualify, I don't know what does. And the Hunt attunement that some Swordies carry lets them infallibly track any being with whom they've engaged in combat, even if only for one round (and, unless I misunderstand it, even if that 'combat' consisted of your foe swinging once and you then running away)... and unlike Michaelites, Swordies have *no* dissonance conditions vs. a strategic retreat, only vs. disobeying orders... After this guy's been around awhile, you really think Laurence wouldn't issue a standing order -- "If you are below [such-and-such] rank in power, retreat immediately upon knowing that you face this Dark Malakite. If you have done so and also bear my Hunt attunement, report ASAP to the nearest senior member of my Order Of The Eternal Sword that you may help a picked hunting party track him to wherever he may lair." And that "hunting party" would have something on the order of Peliel, Angel of Righteous Vengeance (and 18-Force Word-Bound Malakite Master Of The Armies Of God) leading it at the very *minimum*, assuming that Laurence or (if you use Moe's characters) Sgt.-Major Samuel wasn't busy that day... - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:55:26 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Healing question Pak Chan wrote: > Would this cause disturbance? I would say yes, but an extremely low level,> no more than a murmur. A Grigori might be able to detect it if sufficiently> close. I'm pretty sure it's stated somewhere in canon that Grigori can hear disturbance from ethereal and celestial damage, and other celestials cannot. I'm disinclined to look it up right now, but I believe the former point is stated in G:IN, and the latter in the main rulebook. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:07:55 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: Re: IN> The Oathbreaker >Shouldn't that be Corp: 5, Eth: 3, Cel: 5 ? I was under the impression that >gaining a fourth point in a force's attributes would automatically gain you >an extra force. So it is... > >Nice. One thing though; if he was such a stain on their honour, you would >have thought that at least one Word-bound Malakim would have sought him out >to soul-kill him by now. Even given his abilities to hide out, I would have >thought that they would lure him out for such a showdown. The only problem with that is your presuming they didn't....and they won. Just kidding but word bound arn't necessarily as tough as one imagines if they follow a snake into his lair. The tactics 3/ likely includes avalanche traps, pits, spears, oil waiting to be lit and all sorts of things you'd see in rambo: First blood. Combine it with the fact the angel is extremely silent and even the best angel will have his vessel destroyed toot sweet. Worse a celestial formed angel can be slain VERRRY slowly with acid if he's trapped..... The world is a very large place with potentially trillions of bolt holes, hiding places, and in general other spots an angel may dissapear. Really unless Warlock's heart is found (it's hidden at the bottom of the ocean-a common spot for angels and demons who don't want to be found) there's only his actions and the fact he's a blood covered winged homicidal monster to tip off where he might be. Frankly David has Barons of Malphas, Laurence has the forces of Hell, and Michael has much of other ordeals that are more pressing than finding one renegade who is a murderous stain on their honor....so they can't really do the thourough search that they want to. I can't really see Warlock's infrequent appearences as getting him more than perphieral hatred from the Host as compared to the many other hideous creatures of Hell. >Of course, as an adventure seed, that might well be the PC's mission... Welllllllll that's Warlock's purpose truly. Just imagine if dear Druiel managed to survive an encounter with Warlock in Austin....though I must admit I wouldn't know who I would root for in such an occasion between the two. Quite the interesting opponent for Heaven and Hell to team up against - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 2001 19:23:05 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re:IN> Angels in the Architecture On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:01:24 -0800 (PST) Michael Walton wrote: > >--- Kelly Pedersen wrote: >> And for angel characters, getting these angels who >> have been out of the loop for nearly a thousand years >> acclimated to the modern world can provide many >> adventures all by itself. > > Nice idea. The only problem is that it would be easy to get >these angels to come home. We can assume that every Superior >knows the Celestial Song of Tongues, and they might be willing >to shell out that amount of Essence for something that >important. A Song of Calling could do almost as good a job for >less Essence. the thing is, the angels don't *need* to be recalled. their Archangels just need to know where they ARE. hell, after the stone vessals of the ~400 were smashed, i imagine the Superiors involved would have granted the angels of Stone, War, Protection, and the Sword new stone vessals and sent them back to where they were, or to a new church/temple/synogauge--only this time, there'd be a mess of paperwork to keep track of everyone. this really is a great idea. the problem isn't in finding the missing angels, though (as you said, that's simple enough): it's in reassigning the project! someone who files all the paperwork and makes sure everyone else is informed. those angels who've already been recovered have touched base and can go back to their protectorates unless something more pressing comes up. -=|horsefly|=- God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 2001 19:51:04 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re: IN> February 6, 2001 (ML) On Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:51:02 -0500 Earl Wajenberg wrote: [snip] >This and the original idea bring to my mind a couple of other >tales. One is Alfred Bester's "The Demolished Man," in which >we find that you can shield your mind from casual telepathic >probes by using a jingle, e.g.: [snip] that particular jingle's been running through my head for the last few *months*, ever since i read tDM! on a less serious note... "If you'll be my bodyguard, I can be your long lost pal," said the Soldier to the Cherub of Protection ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:03:37 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Pedersen Subject: Re: IN> February 6, 2001 (ML) - --- -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > On Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:51:02 -0500 Earl Wajenberg > wrote: [snip] > on a less serious note... > > "If you'll be my bodyguard, I can be your long lost > pal," > said the Soldier to the Cherub of Protection ;) There was a reason I made the guy who came up with the plan a Cherub... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:49:58 -0600 (CST) From: "Ranma al'Thor" Subject: Re: IN> Hypothetical question On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 10:16 PM -0500 2/10/01, Charles Phipps wrote: > >Could a Malakim accept a Word from Lucifer? > > GM's option. > > I'd advise making the answer (_especially_ if the answer is yes) part > of the whole campaign's theme, as a Maguffin to explore in depth, if > you're going to deal with it at all. To do otherwise would, I feel, > trivialize the Malakite nature, the nature of Lucifer, and one of the > most potent combinations in the In Nomine universe. Remember for what > purpose Malakim were created, and _when_. > This could make an interesting clue for a campaign where Lucifer is actually doing God's will by running Hell and knows it. In such a game, Lucifer might well be able to convey an Angelic Word upon a Malakim. Of course, such a thing would then prove a great test of faith for the forces of Heaven as to how such a thing could be possible... John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu http://www.dkcomm.net/rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "That all princes shall kiss the foot of the Pope alone."--Dictatus Papae, 11th century ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:54:15 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> A Theory of Kronos "You realize... if we are caught here, together, we will be killed." Joah looked at Simpson, the speaker. His smile was crooked -- almost cruel. They all knew he was with the Game, and Habbalite to boot. She knew he was saying it to remind them of that fact. To add that little distrust to the meeting. Making his little move. "I realize," she said. "But my theory needs the right people working on it to prove or disprove it." "Your theory?" This was Ricardo, the Mercurian of Lightning. He was half-glaring across the table at the Technology Djinn who was sitting, surly. "That's what I was wondering about. Why do you have this group collected together, given we should at the least be trying to kill each other." "Because I need you all, Ricardo." Joah bit her lip slightly. She was nervous. She couldn't let that affect what she said. She couldn't let any emotion affect her, unless she wanted to join Simpson. "I need your insights, your wisdom, and your intellects." She began walking around the table. "Simpson, the Demon of Theological Debate. Ricardo, the Angel of Thought Experiments. Cobb, the Demon of Hypothesis. And one other, if he comes...." "He is here," the voice intoned at the door. The three Malakim Joah had brought as peacekeepers and guards slipped out of the way to allow the robed man to enter. His presence was enough to fill the room. The only Celestial present as powerful as Joah herself. "Though he is not certain why you would call this meeting, Joah." His eyes flickered disdainfully at Simpson and Cobb. "It's so good to see you again, Wiliel," Simpson said lightly, filing his nails with an emory board. "Still unscrewing the inscrutable? Spending your time measuring the backsides of angels and comparing them to pin-widths?" "I have my projects," the Seraph said coldly. "And they are all far more significant than your prattle." "Mm. Did you cancel your subscription to my journal then? I notice you haven't tried to send letters under pen names any more. I always wondered if that was dissonant for you--" "Enough," Joah snapped. "Wiliel, have a seat." She sat at the table herself. "This is... intriguing," Ricardo said. "The Demons of Theological Debate and Hypothesis. The Angels of Philosophy," he nodded to Joah herself, "Theology," he nodded to Wiliel, "and Thought Experiments. It is... an odd combination to bring together." "And hardly the sorts to co-habitate," Simpson murmured. "Who would believe our motley assemblage as a pack of Outcasts and Renegades." "I'm no Renegade," Cobb snapped. "And I've got *things* to do." "I'm certain my comrade in Destiny has some reason to have called us together," Wiliel said. "So the sooner she tells the rest of us...." "Thank you." She cleared her throat. "Destiny and Fate have existed since the beginning of time, yes?" There was a long pause. Cobb snorted. "I gave up an afternoon for *this?*" "Let us stipulate that," Wiliel said. "Though Fate did not seem to be truly active in the world before the Fall." "Correct. The Fall." Joah leaned forward. "The Rebellion. Which did not *truly* begin until what event?" "The War," Wiliel said sharply. "This exercise in the Socratic method is tedious, Power." "Come now," Simpson said lightly. "Try to get some aesthetic pleasure from it, you old curmudgeon. And I would place it more specifically to Lucifer's attack on the Metatron. Before the Metatron's death, Lucifer might have been challenging the authority of God, but he really hadn't passed out of the misdemeanor stage, mmm?" "You call challenging the authority and dictates of the Lord our God--" "Please, Wiliel. My conclusion had been similar to Simpson's. Not out of any lack of offense, but because... before the Metatron was slain, the Fate of the Fallen could have been avoided. By attacking and killing the Metatron, Lucifer both denied us the Voice of God, and also opened the route to Hell." "Perhaps," Wiliel said. "And perhaps not. It is grounds for philosophical debate--" "You mean theological debate," Simpson cut in. "You *can* say the words, you know." He smirked a bit. "If we stipulate what you've described," Ricardo said, "what conclusions are you drawing?" "No conclusions," Joah said, glancing at Cobb. "But I have a hypothesis." The Djinn perked up for the first time. "What sort?" "Well, if the mechanics of Fate existed from the death of the Metatron on... why did it take tens of thousands of years for Kronos, the Prince of Fate, to assume his position in Hell?" Simpson arched an eyebrow. "A Seraph Fell and was Word-bound. It has hap--" Wiliel snorted. "Please. I doubt anyone in this room, besides the Malakim, don't at least suspect Kronos is *not* a Balseraph. Yes? Truthfully?" No one spoke. It wasn't wise to lie before a powerful Seraph. "So why?" "It is said that Kronos was found, newly Fallen, outside the Gates of Hell. He still had a connection to the Symphony, which no demon has done before." Ricardo sat back. "It's not really my field, of course. I'm just describing the legends we've heard. After some centuries of study, Lucifer released Kronos as the Prince of Fate, and he rose in Lucifer's ranks quickly." "Correct. Of course, we only have Lucifer's word on this, and he *is* a Balseraph." "I would never spread heresy," Simpson said, cheerfully, "but I *will* add that some believe Kronos isn't a Balseraph at all -- of any kind. Instead... he's sort of a twin to Yves... an aspect, or avatar of God, but Fallen. Proof that Lucifer is right and your lot is wrong. Or so they say." "Blasphemy," Wiliel spat. "Perhaps so," Joah said. "But... as I said, I have a Hypothesis. What if Lucifer didn't find Kronos outside the Gates of Hell at all? What if he found him on Earth?" "Earth?" Cobb was intent now. "Yes. And further, what if Kronos had not been newly Fallen. What if he were a Remnant. One Lucifer recognized? One who was not a Remnant of any sort of Angel or Demon Lucifer could recognize?" Joah's words hung in the room. "Are you... suggesting... that Lucifer found the Remnant of the Metatron?" Wiliel whispered. Ricardo blinked. "It... wait. Let me assemble this. Lucifer soul-kills the Metatron, and at that moment achieves his own Fate. He ends up in Hell as a result, and Fate is loosened upon the World. The Metatron's remnant begins walking the Earth for thousands of years. Lucifer is one of the few who might recognize the Vessel of the Metatron, and when he does... he gives him new Celestial Forces?" "And when a Prince -- even Lucifer -- gives an Angel's Remnant Demonic Forces, a Demon is the result," Cobb said excitedly. "So hypothetically, if Lucifer gave Forces to the Metatron, the resulting Celestial would be Infernal, not Angelic--" "This is ridiculous," Wiliel snapped. "The Metatron was no simple Angel. You cannot tell me the Voice of God himself could be suborned so simply -- any more than a Malakite who is given Infernal Celestial Forces becomes a Demon. A conflicted Malakite, yes--" "But there were no Malakim before the Fall," Simpson countered. "And the Metatron wasn't a Malakite anyhow. Besides, the legend says that Lucifer had Kronos for centuries before releasing him. What if he wasn't studying him? What if he had given him Infernal Forces -- maybe even from *himself,* and then spent the rest of that time breaking him. Forcing him into the role Lucifer wanted -- the counter to Yves he needed?" Wiliel opened his mouth to counter, but paused. "Joah -- have you mentioned this to Yves?" The Elohite nodded slightly. "I did." "And he said?" "Nothing. He looked at me for a long moment, and then he walked away." "Neither confirmed nor denied!" Simpson seemed wickedly delighted. "The debate rages -- wait. Why am I here?" Joah turned to regard Simpson. "I mean it -- why am I here? If Hell can make a case that Kronos is the *Metatron,* the psychological -- and theological -- blow to Heaven would be monumental. You have to know that. So why?" Joah smiled coldly. "You are here because I need evidence, and you will provide it." "Ah. You're insane." "Not at all. Yours is the Word of Theological Debate. Yes, it's in the interests of Hell for Kronos to be proven the Metatron -- so you'll want to gather as much evidence as possible to make that point. To win this debate, you must convince even Heavenly authorities -- like Wiliel and myself -- that it is true. To our faces. And Wiliel--" "Is a Seraph. Oh, well done, Joah. Well manipulated. And what do *you* get out of it?" "Information, and perhaps some underlying knowledge of the philosophical underpinnings of the War." Wiliel frowned slightly, but did not comment. Joah glanced at Cobb. "And you?" "It's elegant -- there's nothing in the hypothesis that's contridicted by known evidence...." Cobb looked agitated. "Of course it needs to be tested. More information gathered. Yes... yessssss...." "Which explains Cobb's presence," Ricardo said, perhaps sardonically. "The ultimate Hypothesis -- he'll have to explore it now, even if it gets him killed. All for your--" "Enough. Clearly, the die has been cast." Wiliel sounded cold. "Shall we agreed to meet again in six months, presenting what evidence we can, and proceed from there?" "Conspiring with the enemy, Wiliel?" Simpson chuckled again, though he was preoccupied. "Very well. Come, Cobb -- let us return." Cobb didn't seem to notice, any more than he noticed when Simpson led him out. "If you're done with me, Joah," Ricardo said after they left, "I should return as--" "What didn't you tell the Hellspawn," Wiliel snapped. "What *lie* did you spread, Power?" Joah looked to Wiliel. Ricardo had frozen, mid-rising. "No lie, Most Holy. A half-truth, I'll agree. They asked what we would get out of confirming Kronos is the Metatron remade. I told them what they would accept -- an Elohite's dispassionate promotion of her own Word." "And the half-truth you *didn't* tell them," Ricardo asked. "It is known that... it is easier to Redeem those demons made from the Remnants of Angels, even as the Angels made from the Remnants of Demons are somewhat more prone to Falling, yes?" Wiliel stared at Joah. "You... mean to Redeem Kronos. The Prince of Fate himself." "I do. If he truly is the Remnant of the Metatron, then no matter what Lucifer has done, he can be purified -- brought back into the fold. But it will be difficult. Thousands of Angels would have to court Soul-death to move Kronos into a position where we might minister to him. It is prudent to know beforehand whether my theory has a reasonable chance of being correct before committing to such a task." "And you need the demons to get you the information you need," Wiliel whispered. Joah nodded. "Which explains why I am here," Ricardo said softly. "Because you need to model the possible results of these scenarios. You need to know before you act." "Impossible," Wiliel said. "This *must* be, at its core, an act of faith." "Perhaps." Joah said. "But we must know all we can, regardless." - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:40:42 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Hypothetical question Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:23:25 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Hypothetical question Marc Bowden wrote: >>*urk* I don't even know where to begin where to >>start with what's wrong with that idea.> >> The First Oath, inability to accept misaligned >>forces, inability of Superiors to assign angelic >>words to demons and vice versa, his life expectancy >>even if you bent canon like a pretzel to make it >>happen... >True enough. But theoretically, a Malakite _could_ >probably accept a Word from Lucifer. The question is >rather like "Could a person commit suicide with a >cheese grater?" Yes, but he'd have to be beyond >deranged. >- -David Or just very loyal. Of course, it would require a direct order from his or her Superior, another order to never say a word about this order, a third to never say an order about the order to never say a word, plus a couple of further orders along these lines, just to be certain... ...oh, yeah, you'd need at _least_ three Geas: one on the Malakite, one on his/her Archangel, and one on Lucifer. Made and gathered by Lilith herself, and at insanely high levels.* _Why_, precisely, Lilith would want a Malakite with an Infernal Word is left as an exercise to the reader. :) Moe *Oh, hell, by then the Malakite would be deranged anyway, in all likelihood. David was right all along. ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:50:09 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Another reason Vapula has no Calabim : http://www.downtoearthcomic.com/d/20000831.html This would be : Calabite does tech support Be the comic. - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation, kfc perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:13:30 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Hypothetical question - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > Could a Malakim accept a Word from Lucifer? Not if he resonated the old Balseraph first. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:10:11 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> The official word has been given, it seems.... This is from the In Nomine home page at SJGames. You can find the original at http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/index.html "New source material for In Nomine is on hiatus for a while, as we recharge our own literary Essence and think about the best course for the line, and for the ongoing War. (How long is "a while"? Ask Yves.) The core books of the line will stay in print; as this is written, we've just released a new hardcover version of the original rulebook. However, we WILL continue to release adventures set in the In Nomine world, and we will maintain this website. And we are thinking about... other things. Stay tuned for more information." So, it's mixed news, naturally. The hiatus *is* official, but the phrasing is specific rather than vague when it comes to the future. New stuff "WILL" come, but it's not known when. So, I'd say the next big publication will be Moe's Tattered Symphony net.book. Hey Moe -- what's the time frame on the playtesting phase? - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:29:41 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> A Theory of Kronos Yikes! This is twisted, spooky, underhanded and an absolutely wonderful idea. My hat is off. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:59:50 -0500 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> Healing question >I would think that the Soul corresponds to those parts of the human psyche >that are not part of what is traditionally thought of as "Mind". The Soul >has attributes, like "Honour", "Integrity", "Compassion", "Strength of >Character", etc., that are not actually part of a mental state. The >difference is probably best illustrated by some examples; a person with a >great deal of personal honour and integrity might be said to have a >"bright" soul, whereas a person with little honour and no integrity would >probably be thought of as being a "dark" soul. Of course, this may have >little to do with their actual attitudes; a deeply honourable person with a >great deal of integrity may be totally evil by the standards of society, or >Heaven for that matter. > >Thus, I would (if I was running a game) rule that soul hits cause the >weakening or loss of these attributes; someone with a reputation for >honesty might start lying, an honourable person might start using underhand >tactics, a compassionate person might harden his attitudes towards the >homeless, etc. (On a personal note, I think that the latter almost always >arises as a result of living in a large city for a period of time, and no, >I'm not proud of this at all.) These near-intangible forms of damage would >correspond well with the near-undefinable state of a soul. I would personally consider what "soul hits" and Celestial Forces measure to be as you say someone's sense of themself, their passion and motivations and all the other things which give them a sense of direction (which explains tying Will and Perception to it; one's sense of self would directly influence willpower, and greater self-knowledge could influence understanding of the motives and beliefs of others as well). Honor and integrity and the other things you mention are tied into it as a sort of motivation (greed, power-lust, and other evil desires would also count, hence why diabolicals and evil humans would still possess soul hits and Celestial Forces (a diabolical with high Celestial Forces is merely more passionate in its selfishness)). If someone is soul-killed, the memories may still be present, but everything that ever motivated that person on their path is gone; if they still live, they have no goals in life anymore beyond the simplest. That fits the general picture one gets of Remnants certainly. It also would answer why a Remnant with new Celestial forces added is a different person; you've ended up replacing all their desires with a new set of wishes. And if you assume a human's Celestial Forces by default have a "goal" to achieve either Destiny or Fate, that could explain a lot too. In game terms, this kind of set-up suggests a few things. Someone who's suffered soul hits could start becoming more wavering and indecisive; sort of a "crisis of faith" kind of experience that goes away as they heal. They might also act somewhat out of character as their "character sense" is weakened temporarily. A celestial's choir/band could be linked directly to their Celestial forces, since the differences between choirs and bands pretty much all sum up to different motivations and beliefs. Which would explain why you couldn't get a "diabolic angel" or vice versa by grafting onto a Remnant from the other side; a Superior's supplied Celestial Forces would inevitably carry a resonance from their side which would push the Remnant into forming as a member of the appropriate side. A Balseraph of Fate's attunement also ties into Kronos having a great understanding of the motivations of others (as part of Fate) and a Balseraph's ability to lie to itself well enough to change the rest of the Symphony; using this knowledge of motivations, they can lie sufficiently well enough to take on the resonance of angels. This can also explain Malakim and Lilim. Both have somewhat "special" motivations designed into them (Malakim are strongly based on personal honor and integrity; Lilim are motivated by a selfish "tit for tat" view) which might translate into specific types of Celestial Forces needed for their construction. Demon Princes can't create "Dark Malakim" because they no longer can truly comprehend such honor and so thus cannot create Celestial Forces with such traits built in. Lilith is the only Superior who truly grasps her free amoral deal-making motivation enough to create Lilith using appropriate forces. Of course, this might mean someone like Vapula might conclude it would be possible to make one's own Malakim and Lilim by stripping Celestial Forces from pre-existing ones and adding them into your own creation, with just a few minor tweaks which he's sure will be worked out momentarily with a little research... Obviously a cue for an adventure; Lilith in particular would be PISSED at someone stripping her hard-made daughters so they could make their own cheap knock-offs. A sudden rise in Remnants of the appropriate type could tip off PCs to the "Celestial Force mining" in the area. And for the truly devious GM, inquisitive souls could run into the "interesting" results Vapula got with the experiments grafting Celestial Forces from Malakim and Lilim into other beings or together in one creation... (insert your own SAN check creatures here ;)). - -- Mike Bruner-- bruner@delaware.infi.net "But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the East, and Juliet is AHHH THE SUN!!!" *FOOM* --Vampire theatre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:22:52 -0500 From: "Michael" Subject: Re: IN> Angels in the Architecture > > From the main rulebook, p. 137, in the "Angels' > > Hearts" box: "If you've gone > > missing, and a friend can reach your Heart, a few > > moments of meditation will > > show him, inside the globe, where you are." > > Hmm. Another good point. Darnit, I knew that part > about the angles being unfindable was the weak link. > However... What, exactly, does the Heart show? Canon certainly implies that it allows the person looking into your Heart to *locate* you; there's an explicit reference in the section on demonic Hearts, and the angelic section implies it as well. However, it's your game; if you don't want Hearts to be able to track, don't let it happen. I don't think anybody's game is 100% canonical, but you might want to notify your players of your "house rule" in advance. I'd say if you do that you'll have a larger number of Renegade demons, and angels who have been Outcast "in absentia" after deserting, though. The numbers still won't be *huge*... but it does seem to follow. Also, I'd expect to see more celestials carrying "token" artifacts (as mentioned in the Liber Reliquarum) to allow their friends to track them. - -- Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 03:23:36 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Angel of Patience Hey I'm writing up the Angel of Patience for Stone, anyone want to give me an idea on the word forces for this puppy or rites? Maybe what kind of attunement he might have? I imagine it's a potent word. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 05:44:55 -0600 From: "Cthulhu" Subject: IN> Re: Hardcore or "What's Lucifer's deal with stupid Princes?" >2> The Demogorgon Okay, I've missed something. Who was this guy? And what book is it in? wuv, Cthulhu _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:44:34 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Superiors in WW2 Charles Phipps wrote: > The Crusades were sparked and fanned by a number of mystic profits I know you meant "prophets," but this still gave me a giggle, considering the probable underlying motives that made the Crusades so popular with the powerful. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:01:37 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> The official word has been given, it seems.... >However, we WILL continue to release adventures set in the In Nomine >world, and we will maintain this website. And we are thinking >about... other things. Stay tuned for more information." > >So, it's mixed news, naturally. The hiatus *is* official, but the >phrasing is specific rather than vague when it comes to the future. >New stuff "WILL" come, but it's not known when. > My guess is sooner rather than later. Not for full sourcebooks, maybe, but adventures . . . jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:33:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Patience Charles Phipps wrote: > Hey I'm writing up the Angel of Patience for Stone, anyone want > to give me an idea on the word forces for this puppy or rites? > Maybe what kind of attunement he might have? Patience is more or less directly opposed to Wrath. I could see it as a Word under Flowers at least as well as under Stone. Its attunements might resemble the Aura of Peace from Flowers, or the ability to shrug off pain or the Angry Discord. Ophanim of Patience are interesting creatures to contemplate... Life is full of possible Rites of Patience, including: - Babysitting - Navigating traffic jams - Listening to bores - Filling out forms and so on. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:59:45 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Patience >From: Earl Wajenberg >Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Patience >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:33:41 -0500 >Life is full of possible Rites of Patience, including: > > - Babysitting > - Navigating traffic jams > - Listening to bores > - Filling out forms - - List administration... *g* - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:10:05 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Patience - --On Monday, February 12, 2001 3:59 PM +0000 Charles Glasgow wrote: > >> From: Earl Wajenberg >> Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Patience >> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:33:41 -0500 > >> Life is full of possible Rites of Patience, including: >> >> - Babysitting >> - Navigating traffic jams >> - Listening to bores >> - Filling out forms > > - List administration... *g* > ...list membership on some days.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:16:45 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Patience - -----Original Message----- From: Earl Wajenberg To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Monday, February 12, 2001 10:44 AM Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Patience >Charles Phipps wrote: > >> Hey I'm writing up the Angel of Patience for Stone, anyone want >> to give me an idea on the word forces for this puppy or rites? >> Maybe what kind of attunement he might have? > >Patience is more or less directly opposed to Wrath. I could >see it as a Word under Flowers at least as well as under Stone. >Its attunements might resemble the Aura of Peace from Flowers, >or the ability to shrug off pain or the Angry Discord. Wasn't Maserach, the Prince of Sloth, the previous holder of the word of Patience as an Archangel? - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:48:21 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> A Theory of Kronos *quiet applause* That was both a wickedly insightful and twisted campaign seed, and a wonderfully written vignette, Eric. Though I've already made decisions about the Metatron in my game, there's nothing to say the next campaign can't be different... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! We're the only HONEST church. We tell you we want your money. The OTHER churches say "god" wants your money. It's a lie. They can't even admit they're gonna take that cash and buy hookers with it! We buy hookers AND show you the pictures! -- Sister Decadence ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:22:18 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Patience On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Charles Phipps wrote: > Hey I'm writing up the Angel of Patience for Stone, anyone want to give me > an idea on the word forces for this puppy or rites? Maybe what kind of > attunement he might have? I imagine it's a potent word. Patience is a very important Word, practically a major one. I would say 13-15 Word Forces, myself, with the potential to grow that if the angel found some good ways to promote it as a virtue in the world. So that should actually give said angel 2-3 special abilities linked to its Word. Let's see... * The angel may convince anyone acting in a hasty manner that they should wait to act until the situation changes. This may resisted with a Will roll (Celestials add their Celestial Forces). * The angel is immune to boredom and may bestow this immunity on the people around him, affecting either everyone within (Celestial Forces x 3) yards or the nearest (Celestial Forces x 10) people (angel's choice). For one Essence, this effect will linger for one hour after the angel has left the area. This has no specific game effect, but works noticeable wonders when used at the DMV, post office, etc. * Try, try, and try again, and eventually you'll get it. If the angel fails a skill roll when attempting a particular task, he may wait one hour and try again, at a +1 bonus. This may be repeated on failed rolls, with a cumulative +1 bonus, to a maximum bonus of the angel's Ethereal Forces. It must be one specific task (i.e., not "picking a lock" but "picking the lock on this door"). If the GM rules that there would normally be a penalty for repeated attempts, the +1 bonus(es) will help cancel out this penalty, not replace it. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Anything sounds profound if you put it in quotation marks and sign it Anonymous." -- Anonymous ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2056 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.