From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Feb 13 15:26:14 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06261 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:26:14 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA24383 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:07:18 -0600 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:07:18 -0600 Message-Id: <200102132107.PAA24383@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2059 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, February 13 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2059 In this digest: IN> Cherub attunements Re: IN> Stone Identifications Re: IN> Technology gadget IN> Sword Identifications Re: IN> HeartViews (Re: Angels in the Architecture) IN> February 9, 2001 (ML) IN> February 10, 2001 (ML) IN> February 11, 2001 (ML) IN> Re: Subject: Happy Tu B'Shevat! Re: IN> Sword Identifications Re: IN> Sword Identifications Re: IN> Sword Identifications Re: IN> Sword Identifications Re: IN> Re: Fwd: Happy Tu B'Shevat! Re: OT: Big ships (was Re: IN> Re: Fwd: Happy Tu B'Shevat!) IN> Elohim: A Dilemema Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema Re: IN> A Theory of Kronos Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema Re: IN> More on perception vs. will; rolling in games (was "Another new Skill") Re: IN> In> The Oathbreaker IN> Remote Control (Re: Fwd: Happy Tu B'Shevat!) Re: IN> Cherub attunements Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema Re: IN> Sword Identifications Re: IN> A Theory of Kronos Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 02:56:35 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Cherub attunements When a Cherub (or a Djinn) attunes to someone, whether human or celestial: 1) Can the Attuned tell that something has happened? That is, will he feel it as it happens, as a chill up the spine, a warm glow, a tingle, or whatever? 2) Will it show up on a Mercurian attunement directed at the Attuned? How about one directed at the Cherub or Djinn? Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:03:53 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Stone Identifications This is a wonderful bit of flavor. I won't speak for anyone else, but I certainly appreciate little background details like this. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:08:05 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Technology gadget - --- "William J. Keith" wrote: > Essence Magnifier [Twitch.] I shudder to think of the twink factor on this. That notwithstanding, this is a really interesting item. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:25:26 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: IN> Sword Identifications Preferred blade styles for Swordies, huh? I'll take a crack at it. Seraphim: katanas, wakizashis and other Oriental blades -- they are precision weapons. Cherubim: saber with main-gauche, a style that incorporates both attack and defense. Ofanim: foil, epee' and rapier -- fast blades designed to bypass the opponent's defense rather than overwhelm it. Elohim: longswords -- can be used to make precise cuts while keeping one's distance. Malakim: broadswords, greatswords and other large blades that require strength and endurance to use. Kyriotates: assegai (I think that's the correct term, but I won't vouch for the spelling), an African throwing/fighting axe with multiple blades. Mercurians: shortswords -- used for fighting up close and personal. Bright Lilim: daggers -- easily concealable until someone _needs_ to be stabbed. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:05:08 -0500 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> HeartViews (Re: Angels in the Architecture) >>As is, Dominic still ought to have a Reliever sitting around watching each >>Creationer Heart (or at least the more senior ones, and especially the ones >>not IST other Archangels...) > >Well, there is a line about his Servitors having to hide their Hearts >where they can... And all the Creationers in service to other Archangels (read: vast majority) have Hearts with their new bosses, most if not all who might object to letting Dominic spy on their servants, if for no other reason than it implies the Archangel can't do their job keeping an eye on their people. And of course one can imagine Michael's response to Dominic sending relievers to spy on his Servitors, even loaned Servitors: "Oh darn, guess it isn't safe to be that close to our artillery testing grounds. Don't worry, I'm sure the little guy will stop shaking in a decade or so..." :). I would figure letting Hearts be spied upon by agents of other Superiors who aren't given permission by the Heart's owner is frowned upon in general anyway; why run the risk of having your Servitors compromised if somebody else's agent winds up Falling? There should be some need-to-know issues with Earth-side angels. - -- Mike Bruner-- bruner@delaware.infi.net "But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the East, and Juliet is AHHH THE SUN!!!" *FOOM* --Vampire theatre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:21:11 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> February 9, 2001 (ML) Better late than never. Moe "There are good people, there are bad people, there are very bad people and then there are all those damn Iroquois." -Attributed to anonymous non-Iroquois Native American, circa 1776 AD. Veracity dubious. Hey, strip the skin from a couple of missionaries and stuff like this gets bandied about before too long. Needless to say, it _is_ an exaggeration, but the some of the various Native American ethereals still weren't precisely nice. The Aztecs got the worst press - at the direct connivance of some of their more thoughtful peers - but more than one ethereal god got politely but firmly ejected from the Happy Hunting Grounds and told to go their merry way. And please, please, please don't come back to visit, if you don't mind? Well, the worst ended up working for Beleth - of course - and some of the brighter ones of those switched over to Nybbas fairly quickly. The Prince of the Media loves Native American mythology. It's such a useful flail with which to beat Westerners with a taste for guilt (in other words, most of them): besides, you can spice up any kind of pseudo-mystic nonsense up with it. And, of course, there were always bad 'cowboys and Indians' movies, dime novels, television shows: oh, it was prime stuff while it lasted. Such things have died down recently, of course, but these things go in cycles. In the meantime, the ethereal spirits are supposed to keep themselves busy, right? Well, one of them has. Bloody Eagle - which is not his 'real' name, by the way. Nybbas found his real name to be without artistic merit, and casually removed it from his brain - - anyway, Bloody Eagle hung out with Rex for a while (Native Americans are Cool), and made a suggestion. He's come up with The Next Big Thing: the deliberate infliction of pain to show how tough you are. Rex loves it: the scars alone are Cool. Nybbas loves it, too: with a little tweaking, you could get people to sport permanent corporate logos. The rest of Hell loves it: aside from the sheer joy of getting humans to stick knives into each other for fun, there's always the useful aspects of encouraging sadism and ritual torture. Of course, Heaven is appalled - and guess who they're looking at with narrowed eyes? That's right, the Native American pantheons. Rather than trying to explain away different cultural attitudes (and it's not like Bloody Eagle invented the practices that he's perverting, so to speak), the pantheon has decided that things would be best served by just killing the damn spirit. So, either the PCs will be working for the pantheon, working for Jordi (who has been persuaded to help out on this one), or just trying to kill Bloody Eagle on their own. If the latter, they'll be dealing with a bunch of Native American spirits and/or pagan Soldiers, at whatever competence level you choose. Try to avoid the cliches on this one: this seed is skirting the realm of bad taste as it is. However, some research in the more unsavory (and lesser known) aspects of certain theological and anthropological attitudes of certain cultures might at least prove a bracing corrective for any annoyingly smugly faux-hip players that you might have. If that fails, just throw Calabim of the Media at them. It'll make you feel better, at least. ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:22:30 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> February 10, 2001 (ML) Second of three. Still a stretch. Moe Time Drum This type of talisman dates from the Purity Crusade. (Honestly, given the sheer number of artifacts descended from one of a kind ethereal constructions, an impartial observer might be forgiven for assuming that the Crusade was merely just a particularly demented R&D evaluation / purchasing trip.) Modern versions tend to be snare drums or bongos, although big ones certainly exist. Time Drums act as a Talisman for Dancing (increasing skill, not granting it), but only for those actually listening to one. The user may not actually dance, but a human continuously using the drum may go without sleep or food without ill effects for one half day per level of the relic. The ancient Mayans used these talismans to aid their sacred rituals: modern Servitors of Stone, Creation, Hardcore and Drugs just enjoy the truly wild parties that you can throw with one. This would make sensitive celestials wince, assuming that you can find one that really and truly cares about whether a pagan religious item gets used frivolously. Assuming that the Mayan gods do come back in 2012 AD and start kicking the asses of the righteous and unrighteous alike, this might not be a wise attitude to take. Cost: 5 per level. ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:24:04 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> February 11, 2001 (ML) Last one tonight. I'll catch up tomorrow. Aren't you all glad? :) Moe Lourdes isn't a Tether. It is, however, a place that celestials like to keep an eye on. Some - well, a lot of - unusual things have happened there, so it's only wise to maintain a presence. At the moment, the two primary celestials are Helen, a rare non-Muslim Mercurian of Faith, and Bruce, Djinn of the Media. Like many field agents stuck out in the back end of beyond with inadequate logistical support, they've learned to leave each other alone (and it took Hell a while to finally assign somebody there who could get the point). They hardly like each other, mind, but Helen would rather have a demon around who's not interested or required to wreck the place, and Bruce would rather deal with a Mercurian of Faith than, say, a Malakite of the Sword. It works out. Unfortunately, the apple cart's about to be kicked over. Now that Khalid's back and more or less sane again, he's going to be checking up on things, and look! There's one of his Servitors allowing a demon to wander around one of his brother's favorite places. Not good at all: Helen might be able to fast-talk her way out of this, but that's not something to bet on. She can't just lie to her Archangel, either. What she _can_ do is mention the problem to Random PC Who Just Acquired An Old Friend That He Or She's Known For Years. Looks like the PC's got a roommate. Really, give Bruce a hotel room and a remote (and don't argue with him when he wants to order the premium channels. All at once) and he'll be really low-maintenance. Bruce doesn't want to be in town when the Archangel of Faith wanders on by, so he’ll behave. Alas, there's a problem. Seems that Nybbas is ready to make a little inspection of his own: something about Lourdes making a great setting for an animated series. His Djinn on the spot would be a perfect guide, no? This should be amusing. Let's face it, there isn't a town big enough for an Archangel or a Demon Prince, period. Also, Nybbas doesn’t want anyone - especially Khalid - to know about his little concept, so he's trying to tone down his image, for once. Nybbas in a suit that isn't garish should scare anyone. Khalid, in his turn, actually knows all about the peculiar standoff (although he doesn't know about Nybbas' visit). In fact, if he wasn't an Elohite, he'd be feeling embarrassment at leaving a Servitor out in the cold so long without proper assistance, and he suspects that Bruce may be Redemption material (actually, he's right). So, he’ll be looking for Bruce, and Bruce will be trying to keep Nybbas out of the very spots Nybbas wants to go, and Helen will be wincing a lot, and there's the party in the middle, because for some insane reason, everyone has their cell phone number. Aren't pilgrimages _fun_? ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:28:02 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: Subject: Happy Tu B'Shevat! Subject: Happy Tu B'Shevat! To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com From: Casca Date: 08 Feb 2001 17:48:38 PST >In honor of Jewish Arbor Day, I present two >attunements for Flowers. >Bloom! Cute, strange and something that'll make Baal get really POed. What's the downside? >Leavesdropping OK, that's just _odd_. Useful, but odd. Is the Angel of Puns a Servitor of Creation IST Flowers? :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 01:14:13 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Sword Identifications From: "Michael Walton" > > Bright Lilim: daggers -- easily concealable until someone > _needs_ to be stabbed. I see them favoring stilettos, personally. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:55:55 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Sword Identifications - --On Tuesday, February 13, 2001 1:14 AM -0600 Prodigal wrote: > From: "Michael Walton" >> >> Bright Lilim: daggers -- easily concealable until someone >> _needs_ to be stabbed. > > I see them favoring stilettos, personally. ;) > *sound of a Power choking on his breakfast* Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("These boots are made for...ewww, gross...") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:17:49 GMT From: prodigal@ticnet.com Subject: Re: IN> Sword Identifications Marc Bowden writes: > > --On Tuesday, February 13, 2001 1:14 AM -0600 Prodigal > wrote: > > > From: "Michael Walton" > >> > >> Bright Lilim: daggers -- easily concealable until someone > >> _needs_ to be stabbed. > > > > I see them favoring stilettos, personally. ;) > > *sound of a Power choking on his breakfast* > > Marc. Just Marc. > Elohite Angel of Salvation > ("These boots are made for...ewww, gross...") I meant the type of knife called stilettos (the renaissance Italian assasin's tool of choice,) but was hoping somebody would misconstrue my post exactly the way you did. ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:43:49 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Sword Identifications - --On Tuesday, February 13, 2001 3:17 PM +0000 prodigal@ticnet.com wrote: > > Marc Bowden writes: >> >> --On Tuesday, February 13, 2001 1:14 AM -0600 Prodigal >> wrote: >> >> > From: "Michael Walton" >> >> >> >> Bright Lilim: daggers -- easily concealable until someone >> >> _needs_ to be stabbed. >> > >> > I see them favoring stilettos, personally. ;) >> >> *sound of a Power choking on his breakfast* >> >> Marc. Just Marc. >> Elohite Angel of Salvation >> ("These boots are made for...ewww, gross...") > > I meant the type of knife called stilettos (the renaissance Italian > assasin's tool of choice,) but was hoping somebody would > misconstrue my post exactly the way you did. ;;;) I'm aware of both types of stilettos. The utter perfection of your comment just caught me out. =) Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Besides, ever been stabbed with 4" heels?") ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:42:08 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: Fwd: Happy Tu B'Shevat! At 4:16 PM -0600 2/12/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: > >> Sounds like what you want is a Kyrio of Lightning who is >> sympathetic to the Flowerchild's goals, or a Kyrio of Flowers >> with a Kyrio of Lightning attunement. Then the Kyrio >> possesses the GUN and simply refuses to fire. > >Yes, that'd be the safest way. > >"The firecontrol system says... no." "Sir?" "Yes?" "The firecontrol wants your password." "My *what?*" "Your password!" "I don't *have* a password." "Well... it says if you don't remember your password, you can enter your e-mail address, and it will find the password associated with it, and e-mail your password to you--" "Target has been lost sir." - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:19:10 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: OT: Big ships (was Re: IN> Re: Fwd: Happy Tu B'Shevat!) At 4:41 PM -0600 2/12/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: > >I know less details about this one... but in 1991, the USS _Missouri_ >apparently had an accident with a Tomahawk missile launcher that resulted in >their burning a hole in their deck. This is the one I was thinking of. I remember hearing about the USS Iowa now as well, with further contemplation. Thanks! - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:23:25 -0600 From: "Bradley Paranial" Subject: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema Ok, An Elohite is leading a team of Soldiers of God on some mission. They complete the mission and on their way out one of the Soldiers finds in a perilous situation. (ie, caught in a river when he can't swim, trapped in a burning buliding, just caputured by Demons of Death). Now the Elohite likes and cares about this paticular group of Soldiers, (though of course he's very subtle how he decides to show of course) And the team has already achieved it's objective. If the the Elohite goes back to save the Soldier or orders on of the other soldiers to do so, does he get dissonance. Bradley Paranial, Elohite Freind of the Lords Troops, Pondering the Subjectivity of Heroism. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:46:35 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema - --On Tuesday, February 13, 2001 11:23 AM -0600 Bradley Paranial wrote: > Ok, An Elohite is leading a team of Soldiers of God on some > mission. They complete the mission and on their way out one of the > Soldiers finds in a perilous situation. (ie, caught in a river when > he can't swim, trapped in a burning buliding, just caputured by > Demons of Death). Now the Elohite likes and cares about this > paticular group of Soldiers, (though of course he's very subtle how > he decides to show of course) And the team has already achieved > it's objective. If the the Elohite goes back to save the Soldier or > orders on of the other soldiers to do so, does he get dissonance. > No. We only wrack up dissonance if we let our feelings interfere with our duty. In this case, we save him because he needs saving, not just because he's our friend. On the other hand, if he became injured during the mission and was unable to continue for whatever reason, we'd have no compunctions about leaving him behind for the sake of the mission. Leaving him behind because we don't like him, or taking him along because we do, would be dissonant. You're invariably going to twist the scenario so that we have to leave him behind for one reason or another, which is fine. It's actually terribly easy. I can think of at least eleven practical scenarios in which we'd have to ditch him, or let him go, but they're based on the *needs at hand*, not a personal motivation that's easy to villify. Being a Power means having to suck it up and make the hard choices, whether you "like" it or not. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Only one rule applies.") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:49:06 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema Bradley Paranial wrote: > If the the Elohite goes back to save the Soldier or > orders on of the other soldiers to do so, does he get dissonance. Not necessarily. It depends on the circumstances. The Elohite shouldn't go back for the Soldier *just* because it likes him, but there are good reasons to go after him anyway; Heaven needs Soldiers, and his fellow Soldiers, his family, and the Soldier himself would all mourn his death, most likely. Now, just as a good commander on the mundane level, the Elohite shouldn't put the remaining Soldiers at too great a risk in attempting the rescue. It can be freer risking its own vessel, since even if it dies, it will probably get out of Trauma and into a new vessel relatively soon. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:10:13 -0600 From: "Bradley Paranial" Subject: Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema >From: Marc Bowden >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema >Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:46:35 -0500 > > > nt. > You're invariably going to twist the scenario so that we have to >leave him behind for one reason or another. Actually I intend to do nothing of the kind. Just asking a question to promote debate on this list. Brad _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:31:32 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema - --On Tuesday, February 13, 2001 12:10 PM -0600 Bradley Paranial wrote: > >> From: Marc Bowden >> >> You're invariably going to twist the scenario so that we have to >> leave him behind for one reason or another. > > Actually I intend to do nothing of the kind. Just asking a question > to promote debate on this list. > And you did. I'm pointing out that it's very easy to arrange for a Power to have to leave someone out for any number of reasons. That's why you see a lot of Elohim as XOs but not *commanders*. They lack or don't listen to the vital spark of passion a leader needs to drive him, and it's easy to lure one into a trap where you *know* they'll react a certain way and use it to pull their fangs. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing." - Theodore Roosevelt) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:48:24 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema At 11:23 AM -0600 2/13/01, Bradley Paranial wrote: >Ok, An Elohite is leading a team of Soldiers of God on some mission. >They complete the mission and on their way out one of the Soldiers >finds in a perilous situation. (ie, caught in a river when he can't >swim, trapped in a burning buliding, just caputured by Demons of >Death). Now the Elohite likes and cares about this paticular group >of Soldiers, (though of course he's very subtle how he decides to >show of course) And the team has already achieved it's objective. If >the the Elohite goes back to save the Soldier or orders on of the >other soldiers to do so, does he get dissonance. It depends entirely on the mission objective and the overall good. Obviously, failing to retrieve the Soldier is a waste of a resource and a potential security risk for Heaven -- so assuming a lack of mission parameters or other mitigating circumstances, a rescue and retrieval is preferable. (And if not possible and the Soldier *has* been captured and has sensitive information, he might have a secondary objective of killing the soldier before he can divulge sensitive information.) If, on the other hand, rescuing the Soldier is an obviously risky proposition (due to mission parameters, the likelyhood of losing several more Soldiers in the process, or the like) the Elohite would weigh the comparative benefit against that risk, and if the risk is greater than the benefit, the Soldier would have to die. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:53:01 +0000 From: Pak Chan Subject: Re: IN> A Theory of Kronos At 20:02 12/02/2001 -0500, Charles Phipps wrote: >C> Kronos ISSSssss a Seraph and so was the Metatron (same with Vapula and >Raphael) I don't think that it is established in Canon that Metatron was a Seraph. IN fact, given his role, I would have thought that Metatron was another of these non-standard angels, like Yves. Pak ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:53:24 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema Whistling in the Dark wrote: > It depends entirely on the mission objective and the overall good. Yes, and "overall good" can be quite widely construed. Compassion is part of the overall good. Thus, in a wide range of circumstances, the Elohite can be compassionate and go save the Soldier. But suppose that saving the Soldier would be impossible without severe risk of losing one of the other Soldiers. Suppose further that they are all roughly equally valuable as resources for Heaven, but that the Elohite likes the Solider in peril best of all. It would be dissonant for it to go back for him just because he was its favorite -- just as it would be wrong for a human commander to do so. earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:55:19 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> More on perception vs. will; rolling in games (was "Another new Skill") At 8:48 AM -0500 1/13/01, TJ Howell wrote: >And, YES, Mr. Edelstein, I DO believe in having my characters make rolls >for perceiving important things. Character perception and player perception >are NOT the same. The way I generally model this is that players can >successfully complete the adventure, even if they do miss all the clues. I didn't know this was even a debate. I have my players doing perception rolls all the time. To notice important details. To overhear the silenced pistol. To hear the poor Kyriotate in the Squirrel vessel screaming its fool head off as the Calabim surround it. Really, it's hard to succeed well in one of my games with a low Perception. A low Will only really comes into play when you've got heavy demonic interaction, and that's not as common as noticing small details, for my money. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:25:55 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In> The Oathbreaker At 7:47 PM -0600 2/12/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Charles Phipps" > >[snip] >> After all Hitler wasn't killed by Malakim (Angelic Players Guide) because >he >> was following his code...horrendeous as it was. Now I wonder why they >> didn't off Stalin.... > >Errrrr... I think that one from the APG was zotzed in some later errata or >quasi-canon pronouncement. I have some dim recollection of, the last time >that cropped up on this list, of somebody saying that it was a bug from back >before Beth's Line Editorship and was corrected/will be corrected in the >next upgrade. Will be. It's on my list of Things Up Against The Wall at whatever future date will let me revise the APG. More accurately, Hitler's code of honor would have kept him from being noticed (or at least more than sniffed disdainfully at) by Malakim before he became the lynchpin of human events that he did. After that period, when the angels were realizing that things were going all pear-shaped*, to have offed him would have A: drawn too much notice, B: interfered with human free will, C: been too difficult due to protective demons, or D: something else that fits the campaign. (That line got added by a staffer who made a good case for the concept in email, and a much less good implementation of the concept in the paragraph or so that was added, basically.) (And, for those who are curious, I have it in my mind to break down the APG into its component Forces, assess each bit, and reassign great gory gobs of it for rewriting. Someday, someday, someday. *sigh*) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:29:51 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Remote Control (Re: Fwd: Happy Tu B'Shevat!) At 9:25 PM -0500 2/12/01, William J. Keith wrote: >>Click. The safety is on. You swear, and take it off. Before your eyes, it >>sets itself on again. At this point, you /know/ you're in deeper trouble >>than you believed possible. >> >> >>--- >>John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk > >Okay, here's a question for the professionals. What's Remote Control's >effective Strength/ST? If the guy holding the weapon in the above example >pushed the safety to "off," and then tried to hold it there against the >angel trying to push it back, how would things get resolved? Contest of >the angel's operation skill with the device vs. the user's ST? Strength vs Strength, I'd say. Of course, leverage would also factor in, and momentum, and a lot of other things. (This is only a semi-canon suggestion; I'd want to think about it somewhat, but the Songs of Motion allow a resistance, and I'd think that this should as well, since it is similiar in various ways.) >As long as we're hammering the bugs out, what about situations where the >machine is in continuous use by another user sending commands continuously? >For example, an angel with Remote Control and a kid with an actual remote >control trying to wrestle an RC car? Remote Control wins, so long as the angel is concentrating on the car at least as much as the kid on the actual remote. (That's the stance I'm gonna take there, for sure.) >On the other hand, if a skilled operator can do something tricky that the >angel wasn't expecting -- pulls the kill switch that the angel didn't know >about so they have to restart the equipment, detaches the joint pin so the >angel's left with unmoving blocks of iron... *shrug*. Oh, sure -- Remote Control won't do a darned thing about replacing a blown tire. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:32:45 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Cherub attunements At 2:56 AM -0500 2/13/01, Janet Anderson wrote: >When a Cherub (or a Djinn) attunes to someone, whether human or celestial: > >1) Can the Attuned tell that something has happened? That is, will he feel >it as it happens, as a chill up the spine, a warm glow, a tingle, or >whatever? GM's option. I would give a Perception roll for the subject if the subject is trying to sense something, except in the case of Cherubim of the Wind/ Djinn of Theft, where, well, it kinda gets obvious after the fact, so some kind of effect might be amusing. >2) Will it show up on a Mercurian attunement directed at the Attuned? How >about one directed at the Cherub or Djinn? Very likely both. Certainly a Mercurian resonating a Cherub/Djinn would be likely to get the "social link" to attuned people (if not inanimate objects), as well as things like, "Hobby: PROTECT!" O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:54:08 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema At 1:31 PM -0500 2/13/01, Marc Bowden wrote: > And you did. I'm pointing out that it's very easy to arrange for a >Power to have to leave someone out for any number of reasons. That's >why you see a lot of Elohim as XOs but not *commanders*. They lack or >don't listen to the vital spark of passion a leader needs to drive >him, and it's easy to lure one into a trap where you *know* they'll >react a certain way and use it to pull their fangs. Except Elohim of the Wind, who point out calmly and precisely, that being random _IS_ objectively serving Janus' Word, and sometimes going on a "gut instinct" is all you can do in a situation that does not have any obvious path to a clearly optimal solution. And did you want your car keys back? emccoy@nh.ultranet.com, Uppity Wynch http://brie.bmsc.washington.edu/people/merritt/books/Eye_of_Argon.html "rumoured to contain hoards of plunder, and many young wenches" Mike [falsetto]: "We're tired of these degrading patriachical slurs! From now on we demand to be called 'wynchys.'" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:41:55 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Sword Identifications At 10:43 AM -0500 2/13/01, Marc Bowden wrote: > I'm aware of both types of stilettos. The utter perfection of your >comment just caught me out. =) > >Marc. Just Marc. >Elohite Angel of Salvation >("Besides, ever been stabbed with 4" heels?") Okay, this isn't _precisely_ on topic, and is probably an urban legend with no truth to it to boot (pun not intended), but what the hey... According to the story, a lady who was trained in a similar or same style of self-defense that I am was accosted by a mugger-type who attempted to grab her in a parking lot in the middle of a very hot summer. The parking lot was paved with asphalt, and the lady was wearing high heels. One of the techniques of this self-defense training is to stomp the attacker in the foot, with all the force of the heel going down on the arch. (Very fun little ceremony, breaking concrete that way, but we won't go into the explanation of why it's easier to do _that_ than it sounds.) According to the story, the would-be attacker was still "nailed" to the pavement by the time the police arrived. Now, consider a Malakite of Creation in a female vessel, and wonder _why_ she doesn't mind wearing those torture devices called "high heels"... - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:56:00 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A Theory of Kronos At 9:53 AM +0000 2/13/01, Pak Chan wrote: >At 20:02 12/02/2001 -0500, Charles Phipps wrote: >>C> Kronos ISSSssss a Seraph and so was the Metatron (same with Vapula and >>Raphael) > >I don't think that it is established in Canon that Metatron was a Seraph. >IN fact, given his role, I would have thought that Metatron was another of >these non-standard angels, like Yves. IIRC, Metatron has been _believed_ to have been a Seraph, but canon has never actually stated that he _was_. (The APG has him listed as a Seraph, but I think there was a weasle somewhere there.) - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:51:24 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Elohim: A Dilemema At 11:23 AM -0600 2/13/01, Bradley Paranial wrote: >[...] And the team has already >achieved its objective. If the the Elohite goes back to save the Soldier or >orders one of the other soldiers to do so, does he get dissonance. It fully depends on whether or not the action would be overall harmful to the ultimate goals of Heaven or if it would be beneficial. The Elohite must consider not only his own assessment of the matter, but also the effect on morale that either choice would have on the Soldiers in question, as well as the chances of losing either his vessel or more of the Soldiers. The options that he probably has are likely to be: * Leave the Soldier and go on. [Pros: it risks no one else. Cons: the other Soldiers might be upset, demoralized, and less effective in the future. * Go back himself to rescue the Soldier, having ordered the others to go on. [Pros: it risks only himself, and (hopefully) only his vessel. Cons: it risks himself and both might perish if the Elohite alone is not enough to fix the situation.] * Have one of the Soldiers go back to rescue the straggler. [Pros: it risks only one additional Soldier. Cons: Both Soldiers might be lost and that would demoralize the survivors, not to mention ticking off Laurence and otherwise being a waste of resources.] * Go back in a group to rescue the Soldier. [Pros: All the firepower is capable of being used. Cons: it risks everyone.] * Go back in a group, save for one who is supposed to continue on to report. [Pros: Most of the firepower is present for the rescue. Cons: it risks most of the group, and the sole reporter might need backup!] * Split the party. [Pros: Half the firepower is available. Cons: Half is not, yadda yadda about losses and demoralization.] Quickly, based on his information and assessment of the situation, the Elohite needs to choose an action. (Probably one of these six, or something close.) He must also measure the need for timely action against incomplete data. Based on the situation, so long as he has considered it in these lights and done what he feels to be the action that best serves the Symphony, Heaven, and the Word he serves (probably in that order), then he will not be dissonant. If the choice is to rescue the person, and he likes that person, and the rescue goes off successfully -- that's icing on the cake. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2059 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.