From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Feb 21 22:08:48 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21569 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:08:48 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id WAA19081 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:12:38 -0600 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:12:38 -0600 Message-Id: <200102220412.WAA19081@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2072 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, February 21 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2072 In this digest: Re: IN> Phone Cherubim Re: IN> a question about music IN> Re: a question about music Re: IN> I have no excuse for this. None. It's my curse. Re:IN> Sword Identifications Re: IN> A Week in the Life, Part Three Re: IN> February 20, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> Phone Cherubim Roles (was Re: IN> Phone Cherubim) Re: Roles (was Re: IN> Phone Cherubim) Re: IN> February 20, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> Phone Cherubim Re: IN> Phone Cherubim IN> Improvements for a second edition Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition IN> The Dogma Netbook Re: Roles (was Re: IN> Phone Cherubim) Re: IN> I have no excuse for this. None. It's my curse. Re: IN> a question about music Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition IN> Okay, it *was* an exaggeration Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition IN> a possible David tether Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition IN> Meditations on the Divine Religions, and Minor Choir. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:40:23 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: Re: IN> Phone Cherubim - -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth McCoy To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 11:00 AM Subject: IN> Phone Cherubim >(Not quite an insomnia special, but I'm sleep-short, so it may be close. >Also inspired by various games, including Fiat...) > >Celestials love cellphones -- they're easily carried and they make keeping >in contact a lot easier than the Kyrio method. (Amazing how many angels >were carrying around pigeons or rats before cellphones existed; made them >a bit easy to spot.) I love this idea too. And I think Jean's people would definetly have made a new standard piece of Heavenly equipment by now: A Cellphone built as a Celestial Artifact, with the Celestial Song of Tongues built-in. As long as an Angel has it with him, he can instantly call up his superiors and contacts while in the field, without need to worry about long-distance charges. Hmm... Now we only need a small stick with the Etheral Song of Oblivion on it, and some sunshades, and we can have the Angels in Black. ^^ - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:44:16 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> a question about music Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki wrote: > IS there a nifty musical term for "a set of symphonies"? You know, > kind of like geese come in flocks. A cycle of symphonies? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:18:01 -0500 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: IN> Re: a question about music >> IS there a nifty musical term for "a set of symphonies"? You know, kind >> of like geese come in flocks. Something to put in X in the syllogism >> flock:geese::X:symphonies... I'd settle for a more specialized or >> generalized term, something that means something like "a group of musical >> works by the same author" or "a set of symphonies written in the same >> key". > > Folio leaps to mind. > > And the plural of opus *is* opera.... If you're going where I think you might be, "Variations" might be appropriate, since it's used for interpretive pieces on the same theme. Also, "Fantasia" has a bunch of great musical meanings outside of Disney. Hope that helps. Later. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:25:15 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> I have no excuse for this. None. It's my curse. Moe, you have done something remarkable. (So what else is new, you all say, but seriously ...) You have written up a demon I actually *enjoy* reading. Maybe even one I could enjoy playing. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: 21 Feb 2001 17:57:42 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re:IN> Sword Identifications On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:25:26 -0800 (PST) Michael Walton wrote: > Preferred blade styles for Swordies, huh? I'll take a crack >at it. and without even a pun to start, too! [snip] >Kyriotates: assegai (I think that's the correct term, but I >won't vouch for the spelling), an African throwing/fighting axe >with multiple blades. not sure of the spelling there, but something similar, the assagai is an African short spear used like a sword, with a wide, long, leaf-shaped blade. i could easily see that in use by Kyriotates of the Sword since it was frequently used in group tactics: three groups of twenty or so Zulu would charge an enemy, then the two rear groups would flank off to the sides, surrounding the foe and overwhelming it with surprise and numbers, stabbing the troops to death. >Mercurians: shortswords -- used for fighting up close and >personal. i don't see Mercurians as the up-close-and-personal sort. that's more the Seraphim, mano e mano, Truth against your truth, ala Michael. Mercurians would be more the double- small shield wielding sorts, who would wade into combat as a last resort, defending against attacks to wear an opponent down without killing him, but still armed and armored such that they can bash in demon skulls without a problem. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:06:45 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> A Week in the Life, Part Three Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 03:29:19 +0000 From: Eric Hallstrom Subject: IN> A Week in the Life, Part Three As Terry Pratchett says, sometimes you have to be kind to be cruel. Nice work. You might want to consider developing further that notion on religions, covenants and Destinies. There's some meat there. :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 02/19/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:05:02 -0000 From: "Fallen Seraph" Subject: Re: IN> February 20, 2001 (ML) >From: Maurice Lane >Numinous Piscis very nice. I run a campaign where Oannes is still around (he was only traumatised by Belial, and trapped beneath krakatoa. the explosion was him getting free). These are going to be damn handy. >Fish-head for 1 extra essence, can the fish-head be made roly-poly? :~) (i know, Baaaad joke) - -FallenSeraph ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^ And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon; and the Dragon and his angels fought, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Rev 12:7-8 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:45:14 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Phone Cherubim At 11:40 AM -0500 2/21/01, Rolland Therrien wrote: >I love this idea too. And I think Jean's people would definetly have made a >new standard piece of Heavenly equipment by now: A Cellphone built as a >Celestial Artifact, with the Celestial Song of Tongues built-in. Two problems with that: the first, and more important, is that a relic can be detected -- and there goes _any_ chance of not blowing your cover as a celestial. (Sure, you could try to flood the market with relic phones, even in the hands of mundanes, but is it _really_ worth the Essence?) Second, a built-in Song costs Essence, and even if the relic is also a reliquary, producing its own Essence for that purpose, the Essence still causes disturbance -- also a dead giveaway that There Is A Celestial Here. >Hmm... Now we only need a small stick with the Etheral Song of Oblivion on >it, and some sunshades, and we can have the Angels in Black. ^^ - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:46:10 -0600 (CST) From: EDG Subject: Roles (was Re: IN> Phone Cherubim) Dancing around in my head for a while... - -EDG Roles (for Artifacts) Jean's been holding onto this one for a while - he was unsure that the technology was safe - but now that Vapula's stumbled onto a bastardized version, Jean has started to release hordes of artifacts with Roles, hoping like hell that people won't think he's been holding out on them. Essentially, Artifact Roles work the same way as vessel Roles do. (Some argue that vessels are actually highly-specialized artifacts, which is why the principle of Roles can be applied to both, but that is neither here nor there.) An artifact's Role can have a level up to 6, and provides a defense against detection; anyone attempting to spot an artifact with a Role must subtract the level of the Role from his Perception, and the Role masks disturbance (up to the character point cost of the artifact) if the user of the artifact successfully rolls under the level of the Role. Roles are bought as standard; their cost is equal to the level of the Role multiplied by the level of the artifact, divided by two. (For multiple-plane artifacts, use the total of the artifact's levels.*) This makes Roles for some artifacts hideously expensive, but their users rarely complain after they realize that their level-6 Concussive Shotgun (Song of Thunder/6) just made -zero- disturbance in the Symphony. And Vapula? He's furious. For one thing, it's obvious that Jean didn't reverse-engineer -his- design on this one - and for another, Jean's actually -work-. See, if the user of one of Vapula's Roled artifacts fails the roll to conceal disturbance, the disturbance -doubles-... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:10:45 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Roles (was Re: IN> Phone Cherubim) Cute idea. So would these be examples? -- Song of Healing artifact with a Role as a syringe or a pill Song of Attraction artifact with a Role as a compass Song of Motion artifact with a Role as a vehicle Song of Projection artifact with a Role as a teleconferencing system Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:43:24 -0500 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> February 20, 2001 (ML) On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:05:02 -0000 "Fallen Seraph" writes: > >Fish-head > > for 1 extra essence, can the fish-head be made roly-poly? :~) (i > know, Baaaad joke) Perhaps, but I move that for another extra essence, you can go out to the movies and not pay to get in. - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:44:51 -0500 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Phone Cherubim On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:45:14 -0500 Elizabeth McCoy writes: > >Hmm... Now we only need a small stick with the Etheral Song of > >Oblivion on > >it, and some sunshades, and we can have the Angels in Black. ^^ > > Wouldn't that fix the disturbance and detection problems? :) - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:22:04 GMT From: daiv@cruzio.com Subject: Re: IN> Phone Cherubim > At 11:40 AM -0500 2/21/01, Rolland Therrien wrote: > >Hmm... Now we only need a small stick with the Etheral Song of Oblivion on > >it, and some sunshades, and we can have the Angels in Black. ^^ > > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com "Gods Messengers, Division 6. Please look into the light." Actually, is there any reason not to assume that this is not done? aside from the detail that Disturbance is bad... Wait... Is disturbance that is caused by a mortal considered bad? I mean, mortals blow essence on stuff they care about, all the time, right? Unconsciously, unkowingly and unwillingly, but they still do it, and reasonably frequently. So, does this cause a disturbance? I would guess not, because if that were the case, then tethers would never form around places of high stress for humans (I am guessing that when humans are under stress, is when they are going to be blowing the most essence). So, given that, can you not see a covert MIB style group, under the watchful eyes of Jean, perhaps (keeping Vaputech out of the hands of people who should not have it), or the demon prince of Secrets (whose name escapes me)(just because) armed wit Flashy Things. or maybe I have been working too hard. - -Daiv my mother once said that boy is stranger than a three toed barking frog. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:00:20 EST From: Slipold@aol.com Subject: IN> Improvements for a second edition In a way, I'm glad to see that the I-nom staff is taking time to pause and reflect. In my opninion, the game is in dire need of a top-to-bottom overhaul and I can only hope that the creative staff behind the game is thinking the same thing. In Nomine has always been a game I really wanted to like but it has some serious flaws that have lowered my enthusiasm (that is willingness to buy suppliments). Here's what I would like to see: 1) Revamp the character creation rules to make munchkinizing more difficult. Rules increasesing the importance of Roles would go a long way toward doing this. 2) Clean up the mechanics. The d666 system is cute, but lends itself to abuse far too easily. Also, less math. I need a calculator to determine the range of symphony disturbances, and rules for many attunements remind me of algebra problems (ethereal forces times celestial, etc) Trust me-- once my players see me reach for the calculator, suspence is pretty much ruined 3) Dissonance. Oy vey. First make dissonance rules more subjective and open to GM interpretation. Dissonance should accumulate over patterns of actions rather than in sharp spikes as results of specific actions. Furthermore, among superiors, there should be a better balance between power and disadvantages. Superiors that grant restrictive dissonance structures should have correspondingly more powerful (or at least more useful) attunements. 4) The setting. From day one, In Nomine suffered from "Gurpsitis" and tried to be too many things to too many people. The writers weren't sure whether they wanted to do a stark and angsty World of Darkness knock off, over-the-top Hong Kong style action, or comic-book super heroes. In the end, they tried to do everything at once and ended up going nowhere. Pick one theme--be it dark and brooding, cloak and dagger sneakery or what have you and run with it. Other settings or themes can be explored in different suppliments. Anyway, that's what I think. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:09:04 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition From: Slipold@aol.com Subject: IN> Improvements for a second edition >1) Revamp the character creation rules to make munchkinizing more difficult. why? shouldn't an angel or demon be powerful? besides, a character can generally only become very powerful in one area. the GM can always hit them in their weak spots. >2) Clean up the mechanics. The d666 system is cute, but lends itself to >abuse far too easily. as opposed to which system? >Also, less math. I need a calculator to determine the >range of symphony disturbances, yeah, disturbance is a pain. i could never be bothered working it out. just used it as a plot device. >and rules for many attunements remind me of >algebra problems (ethereal forces times celestial, etc) all these are just scores you work out in character creation. one number times another isn't algebra. it's a pretty easy sum you have to do once. >3) Dissonance. Oy vey. First make dissonance rules more subjective and >open to GM interpretation. Dissonance should accumulate over patterns of >actions rather than in sharp spikes as results of specific actions. this makes the game a lot vaguer and a lot more likely to cause arguments between players and GMs. >4) Pick one >theme--be it dark and brooding, cloak and dagger sneakery or what have you >and run with it. Other settings or themes can be explored in different >suppliments. if they do this they're going to instantly alienate people who would be interested in the background but not that style of game ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:19:47 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition >1) Revamp the character creation rules to make munchkinizing more >difficult. > Rules increasesing the importance of Roles would go a long way toward >doing >this. Yes. Although the traditional way to deal with the person who gives himself 1 Force each in Ethereal and Celestial, and all the rest in Corporeal, is to have the demon with the obnoxious Songs target him ... (The above description is not an exaggeration. In the first IN game I played, which due to people like this was almost the last, *most* of the players did this. "Intelligence doesn't matter in combat," said one. "Intelligence is useless in this game," said another.) Also, less math. I need a calculator to determine the >range of symphony disturbances, An even louder Yes, although I like the d666 rolls. The disturbance rules are the worst irritation in the core rules. >3) Dissonance. Oy vey. First make dissonance rules more subjective and >open to GM interpretation. No. Although I point out that if GMs *want* to do this, they can. But I do not believe in "subjective" game rules. "Subjective" is for roleplaying, but not for rules that affect the condition and progress of a character. Both GM and player should be given clear, understandable, and preferably unambiguous guidelines, to reduce the chance of abuse on either side. >Furthermore, among superiors, there should be a better balance between >power >and disadvantages. Superiors that grant restrictive dissonance structures >should have correspondingly more powerful (or at least more useful) >attunements. Sounds like we're back to the math again to me. Or the "subjective" theory. >4) The setting. As the *Game Master's Guide* (I think) points out, the core rules can be run in any flavor the GM and the players agree upon. I approve of the fact that the rules are this loose and it certainly widens the player base, which has got to be a good thing. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:16:06 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition At 7:00 PM -0500 2/21/01, Slipold@aol.com wrote: > >1) Revamp the character creation rules to make munchkinizing more difficult. > Rules increasesing the importance of Roles would go a long way toward doing >this. One thing I really love about this game is the purity of *character* creation over numbers building. Rather than imposing an arbitrary (and too often false) balance between everything, instead each type of Angel, Demon or other fits into a different part of the whole. Roles are one level of this, but only one -- and for my money a minor one. A Role is an act, no matter how much an Angel or Demon may love it -- a way of tricking the Symphony into believing you belong when you *don't.* If you want an alternate 'take' on Roles (and Vessels) you could go back to the French game. IIRC, Angels and Demons had to possess new corpses to enter the Corporeal at all. Ms. Cogman could confirm that, of course. >2) Clean up the mechanics. The d666 system is cute, but lends itself to >abuse far too easily. Also, less math. I need a calculator to determine the >range of symphony disturbances, and rules for many attunements remind me of >algebra problems (ethereal forces times celestial, etc) Trust me-- once my >players see me reach for the calculator, suspence is pretty much ruined I've never used a calculator during the game, so your milage may vary on this point. However, this seems more like a stylistic point, it seems to me. d666, target number, CD for level of success or failure. It's hard to imagine a simpler mechanic. >3) Dissonance. Oy vey. First make dissonance rules more subjective and >open to GM interpretation. Dissonance should accumulate over patterns of >actions rather than in sharp spikes as results of specific actions. Are you a Sandman fan, perchance? I'm reminded of the point hammered over again and again. There are *rules* to everything. Obey them and things are okay, even if you're a bastard (if an Angel) or a saint (if a Demon). Step out of line, even for the best of reasons, and face the consequences. This too follows the central theme of what is, at heart, a theological game. Sin in the eyes of the Lord (or Lucifer), and bear the instant stain of that sin until it is absolved. In a game that owes a lot to an Augustinian view of the universe, I think that's appropriate. That being said, if a Celestial acts contrary to his or her nature consistantly, whether technically within his dissonance conditions or not, I might assign a point of dissonance in my role as All Being Master of Time, Space and Dimension. For instance, a Cherub who begins acting overly possessive of his charge, growing jealous of her mortal connections and being willing to sabotage them for his own benefit -- even if it doesn't actually, directly hurt the charge, I'll throw in a dissonance note out of principle. >Furthermore, among superiors, there should be a better balance between power >and disadvantages. Superiors that grant restrictive dissonance structures >should have correspondingly more powerful (or at least more useful) >attunements. Why? Seriously, why? Not to throw balance entirely out, but if a Superior's dissonance conditions and attunements fit the conception of the Superior, who cares? If you want the hardcore balanced version of the game, pick up GURPS In Nomine, where the points are on display for balancing. 1, 2 and 3 all seem to be saying, in effect, "if this game were a different game -- not In Nomine -- then I might want to play it. But it's not, so I don't." In fact, it's almost contridictory, since you don't like the "abuse" potential of a loosely defined mechanic (and don't explain how d666 can be abused), but don't like to have to do math. >4) The setting. From day one, In Nomine suffered from "Gurpsitis" and tried >to be too many things to too many people. Now here, you have a point. Though I have to point out that your problems with the game are, in order, character creation, the game mechanics, character disadvantages and the background in the game. Since you "want to like it," I have to wonder what appeals -- the font? Anyway, I'd love to see a stronger, deeper sense of style permeate the game. I disagree that it was true from Day One (Derek Percey certainly had a strong sense of the game and the background of it), but there has been a lot of flavor that's slipped by the wayside, and I've missed it. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:23:39 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Dogma Netbook Hey I just bought my copy of Kevin Smith's Dogma at the local Blockbuster for 4.99 pre-viewed and I was thinking about how even moreso than all the other suggestions in the In Nomine appendix Dogma really captures the feel of the opening story and the tongue in cheek attitude it has to religeon. Plus it's just a darn funny and ultimately faithful movie. Thus I have been considering doing up my own netbook for the movie with the only two unfortunate problems with such a massive undertaking for In Nomine. A:) I don't know how to do a webpage B:) I don't have time to do everything Thus I was hoping my fellow fans might be interested in helping me out in this Movie to RPG adaption of the movie for In Nomine. I think converting with the spirit and "cannon" of the film intact isn't really that difficult and indeed is very smooth. My idea basically is this Opening fiction Kevin Smith is accosted by a Triad of Judgement to ask him where he got his info for his movie and he said that he had a lunch buddy who he talked about alot regarding Catholicism, faith, etc....and in truth it turns out to have been Eli. Characters Heaven Loki, Outcast Malakim of Judgement "Angel of Death" Bartelbly, Outcast Grigori of Destiny (Mercurian resonance) "The Last Scion", Mortal Soldier Rufus the 14th Apostle, Saint of the Sword Serendipity, Outcast Muse of Creation Jay, Prophet Silent Bob, Prophet Metatron, Superior God, God Cardinal Glick, Really stupid mortal Hell Azrael, Captain of Dark Humor The Skaters from Hell, Servitors of Dark Humor (likely calabim but possible elsewise) the Golgothan, Baron of Saminga...heavy Discord The Mooby Corporation, Media front company Ethereals Mooby the Golden Calf (Ally of Nybbas) Adventure Seeds Catholicism Wow Campaign, When Plots by Laurence attract Kobal's attention New Dischord Anatomically Incorrect Optional Rules Transubstation new Minor Choir Muses New Minor Band Debasers - -Charlmagne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:47:45 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: Roles (was Re: IN> Phone Cherubim) >Dancing around in my head for a while... > >-EDG > > >Roles >(for Artifacts) Darn useful idea, that. Simple, effective, elegant. The closest I'd ever come to thinking about how to do something like this was a corporeal artifact whose Role was as a miracle-working relic -- e.g., a statue of the Virgin Mary that angels can use to cast the Song of Healing through every now and then, which masks Disturbance because that's what people believe it *can* do. (I was wondering how precisely this might be described within the creation rules, then realized that it would be neat if instead it required not an angel, but rather human belief to create such an artifact/relic; rather like a Tether.) >complain after they realize that their level-6 Concussive Shotgun (Song of >Thunder/6) just made -zero- disturbance in the Symphony. I dunno. I think I'd complain vociferously if I tried to cast a Song of Thunder and got no Disturbance.... O;^) William ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:10:25 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> I have no excuse for this. None. It's my curse. - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > He would not go away. He would _not_ go away. HE > WOULD NOT GO AWAY... Nor should he have, after this... > Then the worst happened. > > Saminga took a liking to him. ... and this. > seeing as > Belial isn't ice-skating on the Lake of Fire, that > isn't too likely, no? Thoroughly enjoyable, as always! ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:16:24 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> a question about music - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > A cycle of symphonies? Cycle is good -- I've heard _Das Nibelungenslied_* (which is a collection of several works) referred to as the Ring Cycle. *Those better versed in German, feel free to correct my spelling. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:27:45 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition - --- Slipold@aol.com wrote: > 1) Revamp the character creation rules to make munchkinizing > more difficult. > Rules increasesing the importance of Roles would go a long > way toward doing this. Agreed, though IN doesn't lend itself to min-maxing nearly as much as GURPS and WOD do. > 2) Clean up the mechanics. The d666 system is cute, but > lends itself to > abuse far too easily. Also, less math. I rather like the D666 because it's one of the most elegant dice mechanics around -- it doesn't require large numbers of dice or a menagerie of dice in different denominations. Less math would be _very_ helpful, though. A highly simplified mechanic for Disturbance is a top priority IMHO. > 3) Dissonance. Oy vey. First make dissonance rules more > subjective and > open to GM interpretation. ??? I don't know about that one. Dissonance rules (at least in terms of awarding it) are already pretty subjective. As for Dissonance and Falling/Redeeming, that part needs to be objective. > Furthermore, among superiors, there should be a better balance > between power > and disadvantages. Superiors that grant restrictive > dissonance structures > should have correspondingly more powerful (or at least more > useful) attunements. I heartily agree here. > 4) The setting. From day one, In Nomine suffered from > "Gurpsitis" and tried to be too many things to too many people. I must take strong issue with this one. The IN setting seems nebulous because the writers made few hard-and-fast rules about it. That's left up to the GM. You want dark and angsty? Run it that way. You want light and fluffy? Lean your campaign that direction. One of the weaknesses of WOD is that the only way you can run it is dark; change that setting too much and you're playing something else. One shouldn't confuse flexibility with indecision. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:31:03 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition Just to let you know, I'm speaking about this as someone who entered the IN world via GURPS: In Nomine. Also, given my recent post on Kyriotates I have little standing to speak up for keeping the system the way it is. ;^) However, I like most of the G:IN system(don't even really have a "change it in future supplements" problem with the Hives) and do want to respond to one of the complaints. >4) The setting. From day one, In Nomine suffered from "Gurpsitis" and tried >to be too many things to too many people. The writers weren't sure whether >they wanted to do a stark and angsty World of Darkness knock off, >over-the-top Hong Kong style action, or comic-book super heroes. In the end, >they tried to do everything at once and ended up going nowhere. Pick one >theme--be it dark and brooding, cloak and dagger sneakery or what have you >and run with it. Other settings or themes can be explored in different >suppliments. I greatly appreciate the writers' ability to create a system so open to interpretation it requires no change of mechanics to change the flavor so drastically. While mechanical issues, particularly effects which might be controversial, are preferably numerical, matters of flavor and direction in the campaign, and thus the fundamental questions which the game asks about human nature and reality, should be left up to the GM and the players. Heck, even within a single campaign it can be done. Going from Dark to Light, or Light to Dark, might be a matter of a campaign in which the *PCs* manage to fundamentally alter the worldshape -- a massively risky operation either pays off or fails miserably, changing the balance of power from Their Side to Yours, or vice versa.) Angelic despair over the direction of world politics can quickly become alleviated when the players manage to shepherd a budding young optimistic philosopher to the presidency of a major European nation. And make up a large fraction of his support staff, of course. ;^) >Anyway, that's what I think. >Steve William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:32:27 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Okay, it *was* an exaggeration My husband, who was there, says that the munchkins earlier cited did in fact give themselves two celestial Forces, not one. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:35:55 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition At 6:27 PM -0800 2/21/01, Michael Walton wrote: > > I rather like the D666 because it's one of the most elegant >dice mechanics around -- it doesn't require large numbers of >dice or a menagerie of dice in different denominations. Less >math would be _very_ helpful, though. A highly simplified >mechanic for Disturbance is a top priority IMHO. I should mention I agree with this, too. Disturbance is unnecessarily complex. Fortunately, it's easy to guesstimate (or at least fake) which is what I do. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:32:12 EST From: SirOzbold@aol.com Subject: IN> a possible David tether was just thinking David feels that Fraternal organizations fall under his purview right? well I was thinking of the largest one in the world the freemasons the largest building of the masons (it's stone by the way) is in detroit. just a thought sorry if it's been mentioned already. Bill Carlson 2B1Ask1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 01:57:40 -0200 From: Bigatto Subject: Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition > At 6:27 PM -0800 2/21/01, Michael Walton wrote: > > > > I rather like the D666 because it's one of the most elegant > >dice mechanics around -- it doesn't require large numbers of > >dice or a menagerie of dice in different denominations. Less > >math would be _very_ helpful, though. A highly simplified > >mechanic for Disturbance is a top priority IMHO. In my opinion, the disturbance rules aren't complicated. All you have to do is sum the notes to get the base distance, which is also the bonus to perceive it, and for each base distance further from the place where the disturbance came, reduce the bonus to perceive it by one. The other thing you have to do is to calculate tthe echoes (but that isn't nescessary, only if the disturbance is *really* great ( like the one in the game I was playing, "whose" situation I posted here: The"What if I summon Belial..." remember? hehehe...), if the dsturbance isn't huge, don't mind calculating echoes...) See? In two lines the "whole" disturbance mechanics can be explained... :D Mauro. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:12:14 +0000 From: Eric Hallstrom Subject: IN> Meditations on the Divine Religions, and Minor Choir. Well, Moe said to work it up, so .... Most people on the List and most In Nomine source material seems to treat the Divine religions as a counterpart to the Pagan religions, but with a different focus; that is, they simply direct Essence to Heaven instead of to some Ethereal or other. But there is a factor that looms much larger than Essence when contemplating these religions from a human perspective. In the real world, all the religions which In Nomine names as Divine hold out some form or promise of Salvation of the soul, as a covnenant with the adherants of the religion (as in Christianity or Islam), or as a special skill or ability vouchafed unto the faithful adherants (as in Buhhdism), whereas most of those called pagan do not attest to such a covenant or special skill. In In Nomine terms, truly cleaving to a Divine religion must act as some form of backup Destiny, allowing those who do so to avoid Hell, or achieve Heaven when their own efforts along that line would have failed. The exact nature of which is surely ranked high amongst those things which are Canonically Doubtful and Uncertain, to be sure, but still ... It's a promise, do you see? Inherent in the very structures of the religions themselves. And if that promise is a lie, then neither truthful Dominic nor honorable Lawrence could possibly give one of them their countenance. So, somehow or other, the possiblity must be there. Which brings up a question, actually. How do they know? What I mean is, we just got done saying that Dominic and Lawrence, at least, must _know_ that divine religions _work_, even if they're not sure just how. So, how _do_ they know? Note that we here joyfully leap away from canon into the great grey world of "In My Campaign". Yegarim The Witnesses of God's Love, The Recording Angels, The Scribes Yegarim rarely leave the Celestial, as their duties lie almost exclusively within Lawrence's Cathedral. There is at least one Yegarim for every Divine religion or independent doctrinal subfaction thereof. Their duties lie in recording each soul saved into Heaven by that religion, (as opposed to those souls which were _of_ a particular religion but achieved their destiny on their own) and attesting this fact to anyone who needs to know it. It is somewhat uncertain as to where Yegarim come from, as they seem to just step from the Cathedral's walls when a new Divine religion arises, or when an existing divine religion grows large enough to require another Angel to record its affairs. Celestially, Yegarim appear as aged but still strong human forms, robed and cowled in white. Though they are not specifically created by any Archangel, as far as is known, Yegarim are considered to be Angels of Destiny IST the Sword. Musically, Yegarim consider themselves to be the recorders of the score. Resonance: Yegarim can determine what religion, if any, a specific person clings to truly, the check digit indicating specific sub-branch, and at higher levels, to what extent the subject is orthodox to that doctrine. If the subject is a member of the religion to which the Yegarim is attuned, the Angel may also ascertain to what extent his or her Destiny depends on the special dispensation provided by that religion. Dissonance: It is dissonant for any Yegarim to lead a mortal, by word or deed, away from the salvation provided by the divine religion to which he or she cleaves, if any. New Yegarim come into being with an attunement which gives them an encyclopediac knowledge of the religion to whose doctrines they are attuned. Lawrence has not yet seen fit to provide a Yegarim specific attunement, but will provide normal Sword attunements to any Yegarim who somehow developed a need for one. No Yegarim has ever been known to achieve a Word, nor has any been known to go Outcast or Fall. Yegarim almost never descend to the corporeal or ethereal planes, and only one whose religion had somehow faded is ever likely to have the time. For reference, Roman Catholicism currently has about 40 Yegarim assigned to it. A possible adventure seed would have a new Yegarim suddenly formed from an existing religion which had never showed any sign of being divine before. The PCs would then be assigned to investigate this odd occurence. Bonus points, of course, if the religion in question is, say, reformed Satanism, or similar. yr. vr. hmbl. & obt., &c. &c. Eric Hallstrom - -- www.kawaiikunee.com/in_nomine/index.html hallcon@mindspring.com kawaii@kawaiikunee.com Confucius say "Man who leap off cliff, jump to conclusion." ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2072 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.