From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Feb 22 23:21:08 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA23715 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:21:08 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id XAA09148 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:23:17 -0600 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:23:17 -0600 Message-Id: <200102230523.XAA09148@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2074 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, February 22 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2074 In this digest: Re: Roles (was Re: IN> Phone Cherubim) IN> My improvements for Second Edition Re: IN> a possible David tether IN> Wordplay Re: IN> My improvements for Second Edition Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition IN> Humans and Disturbance (Re: Phone Cherubim) Re: IN> Meditations on the Divine Religions, and Minor Choir. Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition IN> This actually boggled Moe Re: IN> This actually boggled Moe Re: IN> This actually boggled Moe IN> Temporary Substitute for February 21-22, 2001 (ML) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:18:26 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: Roles (was Re: IN> Phone Cherubim) >Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:46:10 -0600 (CST)From: EDG > >Subject: Roles (was Re: IN> Phone Cherubim) >>Dancing around in my head for a while...- -EDG >>Roles(for Artifacts) > >This is pretty cool. Is it additive with the >semi-role you get for using corporeal artifacts, or >does one supercede the other? > >Moe I dunno if it's different in regular IN, but in G:IN it's pretty clearly stated that the Corporeal Artifact "Role" applies to uses of that object for its apparent intended purpose. If an Artifact is also a Relic which incorporates or allows casting of a Song, the Corporeal "Role" explicitly does not cover the supernatural usage of the item, which is what I think EDG was suggesting a Role to cover. William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:37:20 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> My improvements for Second Edition Okay theres been some workings so here's mine. 1:) Re-organize stuff. This is something I'm going to stress up front that In Nomine the core book is HORRENDOUSLY organized character wise that it takes me forever STILL to find out inside the book where/what/how stuff is put even with the table of contents. 2:) Revamp the system of Disturbance hearing I agree personally I'm not having some much trouble with figuring out what's heard so much as I'm having difficulty gauging how far it's heard. Just print out a table that says X number of points heard "around the block", "around the room", "around the city", "Around the world" (The death of say....Eli at the hands of Baal would be heard) 3:) Alittle more description Another point that disturbs me about the Symphony is we really don't GET how the Symphony sounds and what disturbance feels like, the sound of a bang should recieve some more treatment. Perhaps also describing not only "sex and a single angel" but also "Dem new fangled contraptions" which describes angels and how they cope with new technlogy, "I say does anyone here speak english or even ancient Greek" about Angels and lanquages. etc. 4:) Time Frame Suggestions for In Nomine players on running campaigns other than the contemporary setting (some of the GM's guide information should really be in the main book such as the time line and rewards) in this case In Nomine gives rules for Destroyed Superiors (2 page writeups) for the Metatron, beelzebub, Meserach, Mariel, Demogorgon (oh come on), Gebbeleth, Raphael, Uriel, Makatiel, pickachu and the other deceased superiors like Oannes and Vephar. Even suggestiosn for running 'games pre historic, pre fall, ancient, greek, and so on up' 5:) Updated References Include Dogma, and a few more suggestions for viewing such as the Prophecy 2, 3, Fallen... 6:) Iolanthe as a Superior Okay just kidding but I wouldn't mind it 7:) Alittle more artifact work Okay forgive me but I still am not quite sure how much my fiery sword cost for my 2 year old character Isaiah and I'm glad my DM just GAVE it to me. Some more concrete numbers would help. 8:) Some notes on heirarchies Okay summoning your superior is nice but exactly how many angels DO work under say the Demon of Stale Bong water as opposed to Laurence directly dear boy. Maybe some rules about the perks (or lack there) of of titles such as land in Hell or whatnot. 9:) Rules for playing Ethereals Especially Mooby the Golden Calf 10:) David Edelstein's chart on just what WILL mess you over on a divine intervention. he deserves it. 11:) Iolanthe as a Superior Okay I'm trying to slip it past you okay. 12:) The Grigori officially written up with both Azrael and Song included ala Lilith I *WANT* these two. 13:) a dedication to us forum fans :-) 14:) Rules for Sorcery, Prophecy, and soldiers in the book...possibly include info on the Nephilim in the back of the Book Just a thought there - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:39:57 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> a possible David tether >However, according to From Hell (my only real source for Freemason lore), >the Masons worship Jah-Bul-On, a tri-god of Jehovah, Baal, and Osirus. Since >in In Nomine, one of those is a demon prince and one is an Ethereal, somehow >I doubt that David would support it. O_o I must admit that I harbor rather serious doubts about any information from a source thus titled, especially unconfirmed by any other source. However, there is canon rumor about the Freemasons. Superiors 4 rumors that the Freemasons are possibly an arm, or at least under the control of, an organization of Alaemon's demons, the Lodge of Gebbeleth. Of course, even if they are, David might be interested in reclaiming the society. The various necessary infiltrations and manipulations shrouded in layers of secrets might make for a fascinating adventure. William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:42:05 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Wordplay Okay summed up simply. I love these guys. Awesome job. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:13:15 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> My improvements for Second Edition Charles Phipps wrote: > rules for Destroyed Superiors (2 page writeups) for [...] pickachu Finally got the little bugger, did they? Earl (In the end, of course, they have to get 'em all...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:03:30 -0500 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:18:48 -0800 Ryan Elias writes: > The most obvious exception (other than Eli, who I'll get to in a > second) would be servitors of Blandine and Beleth, who get hammered with a > b!tch of a dissonance condition and unexceptional attunements. Gabrielite > also suffer a bit... except for the Ofanim ^_^ To be fair, if a servitor of Dreams/Nightmares is doing their job properly, the dissonance isn't an issue. They aren't supposed to poke their heads outside the Marches, after all. Does make it difficult to mix them into a varied group. - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:01:50 -0800 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition sorry about the length. Steve - >1) Revamp the character creation rules to make munchkinizing more difficult. > Rules increasesing the importance of Roles would go a long way toward doing >this. Eric Alfred Burns - >If you want an alternate 'take' on Roles (and Vessels) you could go >back to the French game. IIRC, Angels and Demons had to possess new >corpses to enter the Corporeal at all. Ms. Cogman could confirm that, >of course. IIRC, angels take the bodies of people who willingly give themselves over to Heaven, only the Demons claim fresh corpses. OTOH, the INSMV does NOT have Disturbance, nor multiple vessels, nor Choirs/Bands (let alone Kyriotates), so this probably shouldn't be done. Steve - > >2) Clean up the mechanics. The d666 system is cute, but lends itself to > >abuse far too easily. Liam Astley > as opposed to which system? Gah! As opposed to White Wolf's, GURPS', d20 . . . even HoL's system makes more sense to me in terms of degree of success. And, the IN system isn't too bad so long as you use Risk a lot. Increase TN => Decrease CD Decrease TN => Increase CD Interestingly, in the original game CD results are judged according to the following table: (INSMV 3rd Ed.) CD Effect 1-2 Feeble 3-4 Moderate 5-6 Good 7+ Very Good Meaning that Risk is /required/, not optional, in order to get spectacular results. Of course, my players have NEVER used this rule, though I've suggested it many times. Why? Because they're loath to lower their TN on 2d6 ("It's hard enough to make your roll at it is.") plus the fact that with a TN 12+, everything after 12 gets added to the CD anyway. Michael Walton >I rather like the D666 because it's one of the most elegant >dice mechanics around -- it doesn't require large numbers of >dice or a menagerie of dice in different denominations. Less >math would be _very_ helpful, though. A highly simplified >mechanic for Disturbance is a top priority IMHO. Eric Alfred Burns - >I should mention I agree with this, too. Disturbance is unnecessarily >complex. Fortunately, it's easy to guesstimate (or at least fake) >which is what I do. Jason F. McBrayer >Same thing really. I don't really love the d666 mechanic -- >stat+skill systems are evil, 2d6 doesn't give a very good bell curve, >and the check digit mechanic means that your degree of success has >nothing to do with your skill (until you get into autosuccess land). >If I were to use any other dice system with IN, it would be 4dF (and >indeed, there are at least 2 FUDGE IN conversions out there). BUT, >when I do _actually_ run IN, I use d666 anyway. Why? Because the >mechanics are by far the least part of IN. d666 is good enough if >you aren't rolling the dice all the time anyway, and a stat+skill >system actually does work when the characters are supernatural beings >whose intrinsic abilities are greater than humans in every way. I've toyed with the idea of using 3d6 like GURPS (as GURPS freak myself), just adding skill+stat+6 This gives soldiers half a chance, and maintains the autosuccess stuff. *really* messes with the CD idea, though. So, when G: IN came out, I switched, because I hated the IN d666 mechanic that much. Heck, we even use the WoD dice mechanics for a night because we were /really/ fed up with the CD's rediculously unrelatedness to skill level. Jonathan Walton >No. The d666 is one of the >simplest and easiest game mechanics to understand. The balance created in >the mechanics between angels and humans is almost perfect. Angels and >demons are able to make their rolls most of the time (I mean, come on, >they're _angels_ and _demons_), but humanity has to struggle a bit more. >Also, having interventions was a stroke of mechanics genius. Ummmm . . . not really, they were familiar with GURPS which /also/ uses 111 and 666 as critical successes and failures respectively. And, frankly, I /hate/ the fact that Perception 6 and Perception 12 yield - -exactly- the same Resonance results. Yeah, sure, 12 succeeds infinitely more often than 6, but a CD4 is still a CD4 no matter what the skill level. But, that's just me, and I play G:IN now anyway because there skill actually has impact on degree of success and not just frequency. And, if G:IN hadn't come out, I'd probably be playing with WoD mechanics right now with my table-top players. :/ Steve - > >Also, less math. I need a calculator to determine the > >range of symphony disturbances, Liam Astley > yeah, disturbance is a pain. i could never be bothered working it out. just > used it as a plot device. I hear that. I tried to use the disturbance mechanics during my first session. What a terrific waste of time. Disturbance is merely plot device for me as well. Distance DOES NOT MATTER, it only matters whether or not the PCs or NPCs hear it or not. David Edelstein >There are also alternate (simpler) disturbance rules in the GMG. Steve - > >3) Dissonance. Oy vey. First make dissonance rules more subjective and > >open to GM interpretation. Dissonance should accumulate over patterns of > >actions rather than in sharp spikes as results of specific actions. > > this makes the game a lot vaguer and a lot more likely to cause arguments > between players and GMs. The PCs and GM /have/ to talk about the Dissonance conditions and what they mean. Players who are unwilling to allow their character's actions to be restricted by the dissonance condition need to either accept that their character is going to be outcast, or accept the fact that they can't role-play, or, In Character, seek a new Superior with a nature that suits them better. Steve - > >4) Pick one > >theme--be it dark and brooding, cloak and dagger sneakery or what have you > >and run with it. Other settings or themes can be explored in different > >suppliments. > > if they do this they're going to instantly alienate people who would be > interested in the background but not that style of game Michael Walton >I must take strong issue with this one. The IN setting seems >nebulous because the writers made few hard-and-fast rules about >it. That's left up to the GM. You want dark and angsty? Run >it that way. You want light and fluffy? Lean your campaign >that direction. One of the weaknesses of WOD is that the only >way you can run it is dark; change that setting too much and >you're playing something else. One shouldn't confuse >flexibility with indecision. White Wolf maintains a relatively dark atmosphere for the WOD line, and somehow, it works. Maybe because the mood they aim it is pretty much lowest common denominater, works well for PC struggle, and provides basic conflict (necessary for a game) while also providing a game world full of shades of grey. This would suit GMs /unwilling/ or incapable of the creation load necessary for generating mood (since players can just look at the pictures in the books and get a feeling for the mood from that and from previous WOD games they've been a part of), as well as those GMs who can create their own mood : since the rules mechanics work pretty okay, they can just run with it and do mood themselves, the actual mood as presented in the book is a non-issue. In Nomine doesn't provide for the first category of GM : those unwilling to generate their own mood (not a blame, we all have time crunches at one time or another, after all.) Janet Anderson >As the *Game Master's Guide* (I think) points out, the core rules can be run >in any flavor the GM and the players agree upon. I approve of the fact that >the rules are this loose and it certainly widens the player base, which has >got to be a good thing. Again, evidence that the Core rules could easily have a clear mood, as the GMG provides for otherwise. OTOH, I imagine that there's a fair amount of "not wanting to be a WoD setting clone" sentiment at SJG. Mike Bruner-- bruner@delaware.infi.net >Besides, I'm rather awed with how well they manage to integrate ALL the >types of settings from dark angsty to downright silly. Leave a set "theme" >for games to the White Wolf stuff where it fits more; I consider IN's >flexibility on this point to be one of its strengths. Eric Alfred Burns - >Anyway, I'd love to see a stronger, deeper sense of style permeate >the game. I disagree that it was true from Day One (Derek Percey >certainly had a strong sense of the game and the background of it), >but there has been a lot of flavor that's slipped by the wayside, and >I've missed it. Moe - >IOW, I see the deliberately open-ended style >parameters as an artistic strength, not a weakness. Of >course, it may very well be a _financial_ weakness, >but that's a different story. :) And personally, I'd rather have a game line that had a certain mood, that no longer have a game line. Then again, given the fact that I have NO idea how well In Nomine is doing (except that the IN stack doesn't change at the local bookstore while the WOD books fluctuate a lot.) Jason F. McBrayer > >SJG tried doing a "this is our setting, and you will do with it as we >say" with the Revelations Cycle. No one liked it, which is one of the >big reasons that IN isn't doing better than it is today. The later >supplements (CPG, GMG, Superiors, some of the Libers) have been >uniformly excellent, but no-one knows that because the early >supplements were so bad that people were turned off of the game and >never came back. > While true, it's been said that the cycle lacked leadership, and was poorly put together. It wasn't done well. I believe that an author with vision could do a much better job. (Not that we can just snap our fingers and find one.) From: Bevan Thomas > I think that a 2nd-edition should include information on sorcerers, > prophets, and saints, as they play such an important role in In Nomine. I'd agree with that, but, I love humans. Probably another reason that WoD does so well, all the characters start off human, and wrestle with their former "normal" human nature. In Nomine doesn't have that for players and GMs to have : an immediate means of identifying with the character. IIRC, even the French INSMV game does this, kinda, as the celestials have to have had some time "get used" to their new bodies, of being physical. Also, with the lack of choirs and bands, players have only Word to guide the creation of the PC's goals and personality, and I'd guess this makes the typical INSMV character much more human than the choirs and bands with their extreme personalities. I'd provide an option for PCs to choose not to belong to a choir/band, yet be of equal total Forces, allowing for more human personalities to develop (and give those players who choose the option to look forward to being transformed into a Balseraph or Malakite ir whatever, as a reward for good performance.) This would lead to more flexible celestials who would lack the power of their more restricted choired/banded. It could a mere option in the back with all the other options, not that there'll be any room for such a thing. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:34:47 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Humans and Disturbance (Re: Phone Cherubim) (BTW, EDG -- Roles for artifacts; neat.) At 11:22 PM +0000 2/21/01, daiv@cruzio.com wrote: >> At 11:40 AM -0500 2/21/01, Rolland Therrien wrote: > >> >Hmm... Now we only need a small stick with the Etheral Song of Oblivion on >> >it, and some sunshades, and we can have the Angels in Black. ^^ >> >> >> --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com > >"Gods Messengers, Division 6. Please look into the light." > >Actually, is there any reason not to assume that this is not done? aside from >the detail that Disturbance is bad... I am trying to remember if the Songs of Oblivion are Lost or merely Secret to Secrets.... >Wait... Is disturbance that is caused by a mortal considered bad? You mean, like Soldiers? >I mean, >mortals blow essence on stuff they care about, all the time, right? Yeah. >Unconsciously, unkowingly and unwillingly, but they still do it, and reasonably >frequently. So, does this cause a disturbance? No. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:27:04 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Meditations on the Divine Religions, and Minor Choir. My only comment is that I _think_ I recall sticking something in GIN about angels debating whether some people get into Heaven via living a good life, or if their destiny _is_ to have lived a good life... (IOW, I strongly suspect that whether living a religious life merely makes one more likely to turn towards destiny than fate, or whether being faithful can be one's alternate destiny, is going to be CDaU. Not, mind, that I'm going to complain about discussion about it. CDaU means that it's wide open for people to talk about, and talk about the implications, and all that fun stuff.) (Or even how it would interact with the Cthulhu mythos, for that matter.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:32:12 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition (I'm reading all these, people, and nodding at "reorganization," which is really worth a "DUH!" from anyone who knows me -- or GURPS IN, which was partly my "trial run" at a reorganization effort. O:> However, all these "add this, add that" -- what do I _CUT_ to add all the Kewl New Stuff? If you want this to be useful to me, and not just "Here's my personal pipe dream" (which is nice enough, and I've got my own, but they don't help me put notes into my head on future ideas), then figure out what you really need, and where the page-count is coming from. The art? 6-point type? Think about it.) At 6:27 PM -0800 2/21/01, Michael Walton wrote: >--- Slipold@aol.com wrote: >> 1) Revamp the character creation rules to make munchkinizing >> more difficult. Actually, munchkining out an In Nomine character is a heck of a lot harder than, say, munchkining out a GURPS character. Believe me, I've tried, and I make some sick characters when I can. Any time you make an IN character "sick" in some area, you have a corresponding weakness in another. In one case, K.K. (who _is_ a munchkin, and _is_ only intended to be an NPC) makes a feature out of a flaw. (www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles and then go to the Rogues' Gallery, and thence to demons, and thence to Lilim.) Most "Effective" characters are either a 3/3/3, or some combination of 2/3/4, I've found. (The 2 usually shows up in Ethereal, for some reason, though I'd dump it into Corporeal Forces for Seraphim of Judgment.) (I haven't tried min-maxing a GIN character yet. There are so many points, for some reason I find myself settling for within a point or two of normal starting stats, and spending "according to concept." I don't do that with other character types. (Which is one reason why I prefer not to have starting GURPS characters over 100 points; ze spouse and I innocently broke a poor GM when he gave us 200 points. He had to remove an entire race and all the psionics rules from the world...)) >> Rules increasesing the importance of Roles would go a long >> way toward doing this. For those who've read the Liber Servitorum, did the Roles section there help with this? >math would be _very_ helpful, though. A highly simplified >mechanic for Disturbance is a top priority IMHO. Amen. We made a stab at that in GURPS IN, but at the least, there should be an optional box along the lines of "range of disturbance" and "flat Perception roll to detect within that range." (The disturbance rules aren't really that complex to _implement_ -- just go through the formula, plugging in the numbers. But going through it for each character, each time, or worse -- for times when you don't _know_ where all your various NPCs/PCs are... Gluck. And it's impossible to "grok" without a spreadsheet.) Regarding the d666 -- it's too cute to die. If you don't like it, then you can just roll 2d6 and work from the "degree of success" in a subjective way. (It really only gets evil in corporeal combat, which isn't the die-system's fault; it's the Body Hits fault...) (Or use Fudge, as people have noted, or use GURPS IN...) >> 3) Dissonance. Oy vey. First make dissonance rules more >> subjective and open to GM interpretation. This, no way. I've seen what happens regarding dissonance rules and subjectivity. The more subjective and open to GM interpretation, the more questions it raises. Look at Servitors of Destiny... [Yes, I see someone looking innocently at me and doing the, "Who, me, did I get into a huge discussion about how evil that Dissonance Condition is?" and get back essentially a reply that the GM is the final arbiter over what counts as "pushing towards fate" or not?] At 11:15 AM -0500 2/22/01, Jason F. McBrayer wrote: > One of the _nice_ things about IN (as opposed to GURPS:IN), is that it >makes practically no attempt at game balance. (To be fair, the character creation stuff in GIN defaults to the same is basic IN -- you get the standard starting package for "free" (you tell the GM how many points it cost, and the GM gives you that many extra points to pay for it), and then you get customization points. Truth be told, I'd be very tempted to run a GIN campaign "pointless" or nearly-so: time use and roleplaying for skills and mundane bennies, roleplaying for greater gifts...) At 8:38 AM -0800 2/22/01, Bevan Thomas wrote: >I think that a 2nd-edition should include information on sorcerers, >prophets, and saints, as they play such an important role in In Nomine. Got any suggestions where we get the page count to do more than give some bare bones and a reference to the Corporeal Player's Guide? (This was one of the reasons GURPS IN is so huge (it's like the 3rd biggest GURPS book or something); we were trying to pack everything of importance into it, such as saints and sorcerers.) At 12:48 PM -0500 2/22/01, Jonathan Walton wrote: >4) Flavor text and interesting prose. No offense to Elizabeth and Walter, >but GURPS: IN was pretty dry reading. *snivel* (Actually, considering how much stuff I plain _lifted_ from IN and H&H, I'm going to look at you with a squinty eye and suggest this impression might be because the flavortext is seriously interwoven with the dry mechanics -- there are more dry mechanics, but there's still a lot of flavortext. The ratios are just different. (And with all due respect, from many of the questions I've gotten, sometimes sacrificing clarity for color is bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. Rules should be clear, not "artsy" and murky.) Are the Band/Choir descriptions that much worse, if you discount the mechanics boxes?) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:24:54 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition I don't think that prophets and saints would take up too much space. After all, there are no new game mechanics for them. Probably only a paragraph or two for them would be necessary. Sorcerers are a little more of a problem, since they do require a decent amount of space. If there is an intention to keep the page count at more or less the same, then I can't really think of a way of sticking sorcerers in. Two things that jumped out at me when I first read the In Nomine rule book where: Expand Lilith's entry to two-pages (yeah, I know that increases the page count again), and place her with the other superiors as opposed to with the Lilim. Also, I notice that Lilith is ignored under the enteries of the other demon princes (for instance, it doesn't mention in Andre's entry that he is allied with Lilith), which I think should be changed. More detail should be given on what archangels the demon princes hate more and vise versa. Perhaps a list of opposite side relationships to complement the list of other same-side relationships: for instance, Andre has Novalis as a Cold Ally, Eli as an Arch-Nemesis, etc. As it has been established in later supplements, David does NOT hate all demon princes equally (he has a special hatred for Malphas, who probably hates him more then he hates Novalis). I know that these add more pages, but then I'm better at seeing what should be added then what should be changed. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Elizabeth McCoy To: Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 3:32 PM Subject: Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition > > Got any suggestions where we get the page count to do more than give some > bare bones and a reference to the Corporeal Player's Guide? (This was one > of the reasons GURPS IN is so huge (it's like the 3rd biggest GURPS book or > something); we were trying to pack everything of importance into it, such > as saints and sorcerers.) > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:26:48 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition >At 12:48 PM -0500 2/22/01, Jonathan Walton wrote: >>4) Flavor text and interesting prose. No offense to Elizabeth and Walter, >>but GURPS: IN was pretty dry reading. Err. I have to proffer the exact opposite opinion; any gaming text which can incorporate a sidebar entitled "Angels and their Colas" is pretty flavorful IMHO. ^_^ (Just out of curiosity, is there a single overarching storyline connecting the demon and angelic flavor bits at the top of each Choir and Band? Obviously the Mercurian and Impudite ones are meant to be reflections of each other, but it could still be possible. And if there isn't... hmmm. :^) ) My only wish for additional G:IN material (yeah, yeah, nothing's coming out GURPS-flavored, I know) would be greater detail on Ethereal Spirits -- there are no mechanics listed for constructing Ethereal characters in G:IN. Since they could make interesting PCs, NPCs, or McGuffins, I consider this the only real oversight in the book. Indeed, I think it's serious enough that a Web page or flyer with the necessary mechanics would probably be gratefully accepted. If there are regular IN mechanics for building them I offer to convert them. I also hope you will take it as a compliment if I say, pondering page counts and the relative importance of each item, that I don't think anything could or should have been left out. ;^) >--emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:19:15 -0500 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: IN> This actually boggled Moe So I had a Truly Bizarre Idea (tm) the other day, and I thought I'd develop it. I did, and found out I'm lousy at statting NPCs. I'm tired of staring at it, so I thought I'd let the idea loose to run amuck and let the list pick it apart/make suggestions. Thanks and credit to Moe for help with the Forces, skills and songs. Pendrathias Kyriotate Friend of the Shareholders Corporeal Forces: 3 Strength: 2 Agility: 8 Ethereal Forces: 6 Intelligence: 12 Precision: 12 Celestial Forces: 5 Will: 10 Perception: 10 Word-Forces: 13 Skills: Computer Operation/3, Detect Lies/3, Dodge/1, Emote/1, Fast-Talk/3, Fighting/1, Knowledge (Business/4, Economics/4, Law/4, Cyberpunk Fiction/6), Languages (French/3, Japanese/3), Savoir-Faire/3, Singing /2, Tactics/1 Songs: Entropy (Ethereal/3), Light (Celestial/3), Healing (Corporeal/1, Ethereal/3), , Shields (Corporeal/1, Ethereal/3, Celestial/2), Tongues (Ethereal/3) Attunements: Kyriotate of Trade, Elohite of Trade, Malakite of Trade, Head of a PIN, Divine Contract, Friend of the Shareholders, Angel of Corporations, Kyriotate of Lightning Rites: (need help here) No one really knows how it happened, to be honest. It makes a certain amount of sense, though: Corporations are considered to be individuals in the eyes of the law, and as they are human fabrications, sooner or later an Ethereal based on one would crop up. I mean, look at the extent to which Microsoft is personified, and with all the cyberpunk literature on Megacorps, it was bound to happen. Still, nobody is sure exactly how Pendrathias managed to possess a corporation. He just knows it happened one day. There he was, minding his own business - well, the business of the Fortune 500 exec he was currently inhabiting, actually - and he started thinking along the above lines. Well, Kyriotates are known for their intrepidity, and Pendrathias (Pender to his friends) thought it would be goofy, harmless to fun to try and inhabit the exec's corporation. Next thing Pender knew, he was the Corporation. Needless to say, it shocked him. Enough to make him bounce out of the corporation, immediately ascended to his heart and make a beeline to Marc's office. By the time his Archangel managed to fit the Domination into his schedule, Pender had managed to collect himself enough to give a rational accounting of what happened. Naturally, Marc wanted a demonstration, so he had Pender try to inhabit one of the many holding companies used to finance Heavenly operations on the corporeal. Needless to say, Marc was shocked when Pender was able to tell him, in exacting detail, the performance of every division in the company, including stock prices on the NASDAQ, Wall Street and Nikkei indices. Especially the corporate black ops programs. Becoming Worded was pretty much a formality after that. Elohim and other celestials of intellectual bent have theorized that Pender somehow manifested the ability to possess Ethereal constructs based upon corporations; i.e. a business is incorporated, becoming an individual at least in theory, and the subsequent personification of said corporation turns it into an ethereal, which Pender is then able to possess. At the behest of Blandine Pender has attempted to posses 'typical' ethereals, but has had no success in the matter. Right now, the consensus seems to be that Pendrathias was in the right place at the right time when his Kyrio nature and the Word of Trade somehow intersected with ineffability . Pender really doesn't care to know how it works; he's just thrilled that it does. Marc currently uses him in intelligence and counter-intelligence operations, and continues to help the Domination grow. Maybe one day, with time and experience, Pender will be able to grant his ability to possess corporations to angels serving him. And that's a divided Marc intends to profit from. Angel of Corporations: Pender can inhabit a corporation. Of course, he really can't do anything as a corp: Monty Python aside, business ventures don't leave their addresses and go cruising about town. However, because of their Dissonance conditions, Kyrios have gotten very good about determining the health and welfare of their hosts, and Pender is no exception. Once inside a corporation, Pender knows what its current financial situation is and has access to all information that is held by CEOs, CFOs, CIOs, the President of the Board of Directors, etc. Note that this information is not immediately known: Pender has to look for it. But if it affects the corporation, then the legal entity knows about it, and therefore Pender can find out. As a rule of thumb, assume all corporations have 5 Forces. Add a Force for each additional continent in which the corporation has branches; Japan counts as a continent in this instance. Add an additional Force if the corporation can be considered a monopoly. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:38:21 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> This actually boggled Moe - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Bertish" To: "In Nomine Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 10:19 PM Subject: IN> This actually boggled Moe [snip] > As a rule of thumb, assume all corporations have 5 Forces. Add a Force for > each additional continent in which the corporation has branches; Japan > counts as a continent in this instance. Add an additional Force if the > corporation can be considered a monopoly. This is an unbelievable intelligence godsend... especially given that the difference between a 'corporation' and a 'government' is, from the standpoint of the Ethereal Plane...? - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:52:24 -0500 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> This actually boggled Moe - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Glasgow" To: Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 11:38 PM Subject: Re: IN> This actually boggled Moe > > This is an unbelievable intelligence godsend... especially given that the > difference between a 'corporation' and a 'government' is, from the > standpoint of the Ethereal Plane...? I'd say it depends entirely upon the GM's perception of the Ethereal and how it works. Personally, I'd say that since A) a government is a political entity, not commercial, and B) governments aren't legal persons, Pender's ability wouldn't work. There'd be some crossover, to be sure, especially in the military contractor arena, but not identicality as you seem to be suggesting. Further, I'd stipulate that governments, should they be Ethereal constructs, be powerful Genius Loci, a la Moe's Uncle Sam. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:18:23 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Temporary Substitute for February 21-22, 2001 (ML) Embarrassing. I seem to be blocked on writing out something interesting about Shiva (Wednesday's), so I can't present today's based-on-the-IN-Calendar entry until I get one. Suggestions welcome. Until then, here's a minor Choir to make up for it. :) Moe Sasquatches (The Idealists, the Rangers) The two men looked up from their digging without quite realizing why they were suddenly anxious. After an endless moment, they laughed self-consciously and bent over to their work. "The wind", said one of them. *Wrong Word*, I thought as my nose wrinkled at the stink of machines. I looked over at the drums of corrosive chemicals, already beginning to rust and leak. *Good thing that the lids are loose, though... and even better that they brought two drums with them. *We wouldn't want that stuff spilled on the soil.* Actually, the name _is_ Celestial. Cross-cultural contamination between certain Native American tribes and Servitors of Animals, you understand. Jordi began creating them after the Grigori were exiled: he wanted a minor Choir capable of riding herd over humanity. Unfortunately, his disdain for all things human made him reluctant to create Sasquatches in any kind of numbers - until quite recently. The shellacking that the environment's gotten over the last few centuries has convinced the Archangel of Animals that desperate times call for desperate measures. Hopefully, these guys will do the trick. Resonance A Sasquatch's resonance is for ecosystems: they can look at an area and determine whether or not it's flourishing. If it isn't, they can figure out why - and, more importantly, who's at fault. Once they determine the source of the problem, they go remove it. Polluters are well advised to never go on a camping trip for the rest of their lives. Dissonance Sasquatches were made in the image of What Man Would Have Looked Like If Jordi Had Headed The Design Team: his active dislike of modern trends shows up in his creations. It is dissonant for a Sasquatch to use or benefit from any technology more advanced than a stone axe - and many don't even like to use _that_. They can smash it all they like, and even make sure that wrecking one bit of technology will just happen to wreck a lot of other technology in the area, but they can't use it at all for themselves. To give you an idea, a Sasquatch wouldn't go _near_ a soda machine. He'd be too busy tossing a rock into a turbine at the dam upriver, just before tossing a torch into the dynamite cache to set it off. This would, coincidentally, blow up the dam, which would cause the pent-up waters to then rush down river and sweep the soda machine out to sea. Besides, even if you were to hand him a soda, he wouldn't be able to drink it, unless you poured it into a gourd or something. These guys aren't allowed cups. This means that gadgetry can be a temptation to a Sasquatch: they learn many Songs to compensate for the lack of technological assistance, but the lure of an easy way out is always there. Those that succumb may Fall... and become something whose Celestial name has _also_ passed into Native American tongues. They might become Wendigoes. Manner and Appearance Sasquatches can't pass for humans under normal circumstances: Jordi gives them large, looming, hairy humanoid vessels that blend in well with the wilderness but clash horribly on your average city street. Their celestial forms are pretty much the same, plus haloes (prompting the latest generation of Soldiers to nickname them 'Woookies'. The investigation of possible Diabolic influences over George Lucas has not yet been satisfactorily completed, as of this writing). Sasquatches tend to be quiet, friendly types, really: they know that they loom, and so try not to increase anyone else's level of discomfort. Unless, of course, you happen to be a criminal type, such as a polluter, strip miner, real estate developer... Game Mechanics Generally, the resonance of a Sasquatch for determining the health of an area is instantaneous. The area sampled usually has a radius of about an acre: the angel may double the area for each -3 to the resonance roll. Check Digit Resonance Table 1. You can tell whether an area is thriving. 2. As above, and if it isn't, you know about how bad the problem is. 3. As above, and you know what the problem is. 4. As above, and you can see a possible way to resolve the problem, should one exist. 5. All of the above, and you know the name of the person responsible for any local ecological disaster. 6. ...And you'll recognize him or her on sight. More Advanced Uses of Resonance Being in tune with nature, Sasquatches may add their (appropriate) Forces to any non-combat roll dedicated to helping out an ecosystem, or stopping those who would despoil the earth. This will mean, among other things, that a Sasquatch can usually count on bonuses to their Move Silently and Survival rolls. Sasquatches in the Host For the most part, Sasquatches stay with Jordi. They get assigned to wilderness areas (before you ask, yes, they're also behind the Yeti legend), and are starting to become proactive in making sure that they stay wilderness areas. It should be noted that Sasquatches of Animals don't disdain humans, unlike many of their fellow-Servitors: they just hate humanity's toys. As long as you aren't dumping toxic waste into a river, you're perfectly safe around them. They'll even sit still long enough for you to take a picture or two: Sasquatches tend towards a little mild vanity. Other Superiors have a few Sasquatches, but only as curiosities, really. Novalis gets the ones that don't like killing anybody, and Michael can always make room for a eight foot tracker who can move like a ghost through woods, but really, the technology problem is a big one. Sasquatch of Animals The vessels of Sasquatches, like that of all Servitors of Animals, do not cause disturbance except through Essence use. Also, they automatically know the location of every human within 200 yards of them. Sasquatch of Flowers Novalis likes using these gentlest of giants as guardians of her gardens. Jordi freely lets his Servitors seek her service, so they keep their vessel and Attunement (the latter paid for normally). She gives them her Nothing but Flowers Attunement. Sasquatch of War Michael used these angels more in the past than he does today. All Sasquatches of War start with 10 Forces (at least 4 of which are to be Corporeal). Michael uses them as scouts in wilderness campaigns, and lets them wander where they would at other times. ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 02/19/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2074 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.