From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Feb 23 10:28:41 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18101 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:28:41 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id KAA29269 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:31:45 -0600 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:31:45 -0600 Message-Id: <200102231631.KAA29269@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2075 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, February 23 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2075 In this digest: Re: IN> Wordplay Re: IN> This actually boggled Moe IN> Suggestions for Elizabeth IN> Repertoire of the Corpus of Cacophony (part 1) IN> Repertoire of the Corpus of Cacophony, Part 2: Syth Re: IN> Laurence vs. Baal IN> angelic/demonic lore Re: IN> angelic/demonic lore IN> Re: possible David Tether Re: IN> angelic/demonic lore Re: IN> Re: possible David Tether Re: IN> Re: possible David Tether Re: IN> This actually boggled Moe Re: IN> angelic/demonic lore Re: IN> Re: possible David Tether Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:20:56 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Wordplay Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:27:25 -0500 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: IN> Wordplay >Hey Moe? The reason I haven't finished my Tattered >Archangels yet is because I keep getting ideas like >these: Wellll... we'll forgive you, this one time, as these guys were neat. :) Moe PS Who's just as bad about it sometimes. ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 02/19/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:23:10 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> This actually boggled Moe - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Bertish" To: Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 10:52 PM Subject: Re: IN> This actually boggled Moe > > This is an unbelievable intelligence godsend... especially given that the > > difference between a 'corporation' and a 'government' is, from the > > standpoint of the Ethereal Plane...? > > I'd say it depends entirely upon the GM's perception of the Ethereal and how > it works. > > Personally, I'd say that since A) a government is a political entity, not > commercial, and B) governments aren't legal persons, Erm? Unless I'm off base (which I might be, not being an expert here), the government can be named as the defendant (or the plaintiff) in a lawsuit, can enter into contracts, can be held liable for debts, etc. etc -- it would appear to me to be as much of a 'person' in law as a corporation is, albeit one with a different amount of legal authority. I was thinking (vaguely, I admit) that since a corporation's 'personhood' is an entirely theoretical legal construction, why not a government's? Or for that matter, an established religion's? On the corporeal plane, there are of course legal and terminological differences between the three. I'm just wondering how the Ethereal plane tells the difference between one entirely abstract construction and another. Or IOW -- define "corporation", and then explain why only that definition works here. > Pender's ability wouldn't work. There'd be some crossover, to be sure > , especially in the military contractor arena, but not identicality as you seem > to be suggesting. Oh, I'm hardly suggesting that we live in a corporate state. I am, however, asking how the Ethereal plane tells the difference between registered voters and stockholders, between the US Congress and a board of directors, and between the President of the United States and a CEO. Or for that matter, between a body legally incorporated under US law for profit and a 'corporate' body not chartered as a corporation and not for profit, but which itself is merely an artifical construction of humans who group together under a 'charter' and have a group identity, a group persona, that is not just the sum of their individual identities and where the liability of individual members is just as limited re: the actions and debts of the whole. > Further, I'd stipulate that governments, should they be > Ethereal constructs, be powerful Genius Loci, a la Moe's > Uncle Sam. No, noooo... Uncle Sam is an Ethereal personification of the Ideal Of The American Dream, not the American Government. The US government is perceived as too many different things by too many people to ever coalesce as an Ethereal spirit. Plus, its components and political direction and philosophy keep changing large chunks back and forth every 4-8 years. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:51:49 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Suggestions for Elizabeth Well Elizabeth getting all this material into Second Edition will definately be a handful indeed. I'd organize it like this. A:) In Nomine the World Detailing Angels as existence, probably the storyline with the continued adventures of Marcus and Nicole... Sigh I love those two. And including Brightness/Darkness/etc levels. Plus the history of In Nomine the world. "God said Let there Be Light" and Lucifer said "Hold on, are you referring to me or Gabriel here?" "Why am I getting the shaft?" Baal retorted With time timeline to one side and a bit more descriptive storytelling talking about everything from the Fall to Legion to present day. Plus the descriptions about brightness and darkness from the GM's Guide B:) Character Creation Basically this talks about Artifacts, Vessels, Dissonance, Roles, Choirs, Bands, and the points that are allocated to all such. Insert from the GM's guide statements about old angels, Falling, new angels, and how angels are basically created. Insert at the end a few things about Ethereals, Relievers, Gremlins, Sorcerors, Sorcerors, Prophets, Nephilim, and Children of the Grigori Basically restrict Sorcery to one example power and suggest that players be allowed to create their own paths of magic in the style of songs. It's a major revamp I know but if you want, a single dry chart page can cover all the types of magic with no flavor text. Plus a referal to The Marches (this can be sued often throughout the book) *stop we should be half way through the book by now* C:) Heaven and Hell Basically the two chapters detailing all the Superiors of In Nomine up to the present... you can ditch the Deceased Superiors truly but it was an idea... Sigh. *smirk* A fairly decent idea is to expand the relations to include heaven which may take up a bit more space but Small-sizing the art and making it so that one Superior picks up where another Superior ends on any page (uglier than our beutiful work now but necessary) will work wonders. Basically Baal would look like this. Allied: See In Nomine main book Associated: See in Nomine main book, Laurence, David Enemy: Michael, Malphas Andre would have Novalis associated and Dominic as Associated with the Game, the statement was these people DON'T like each other but will work together with considerable mistrust. D:) Rules Basically the DM's section which explains the 666dice section Skills, Songs, Disturbance, Words, Tethers, and Sample Artifacts Basically state that any number of skills can exist in In Nomine but these are some useful ones and how you can create them. (this section can either be straight from the old book or expanded for new interesting skills like "angelogy" or "demonology", philosophy, debate, preaching, etc...) If you need a writer *wink wink* E:) DM's Advice A final short 4-5 page section ending with suggested reading that details types of antagonists, designing adventures, and other general stuff for the beggining player. Stuff again from the DM's guide would be helpful. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:42:23 -0500 From: "Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki" Subject: IN> Repertoire of the Corpus of Cacophony (part 1) If you're in my campaign, don't read the below. This means you, Phineas and Eric. ;) (spoiler space for my campaign) Okay, I need comments on the ideas below. Interesting? Confusing? And do you think everything about the Superiors involved is generally balanced? Part 1 is the basic idea, Part 2 is a Superior, and Part 3 (still under construction) is the opposing Superior. - --- ** A Repertoire Composed of the Corpus of Cacophony ** How can one Symphony be perfect? Isn't there only so much it can encompass? That is, the fall of Lucifer aside, how can a single Symphony embody everything God intended for His creations? The answer, known to only a few, is that it can't. Perfection can only be found in variation, and in infinity. There isn't just one Symphony -- there an infinite number of Symphonies, each slightly different from the last. In one world, Armageddon has come and gone. Saminga rules in Lucifer's stead, grown fat by the deaths of so many. The only ray of hope is the Redemption of Lucifer himself. In another world, several Demon Princes, from Saminga to Haagenti to Vapula, have Redeemed, due to the machinations of another... In another, Khalid has Fallen, and become the Demon Prince of Fanatacism. Armageddon is around the corner... Sometimes the difference is small. Angels from several worlds would find it odd that Laurence rather than Khalid replaced Uriel after his Crusade. Sometimes the difference is large. When Amabael, Princess of Winter, started a new Ice Age from 1200 to 800 BC before finally being defeated by Gabriel, Egypt fell to the Sea Peoples. The Hebrews, after their Exodus from a Philistine culture along the Nile, ended up rapidly blended into the Aramaeans when they invaded Canaan from the other direction. This weakened monotheism to the point that Uriel was killed during his Crusade, and both angels and demons hide from increasingly powerful Ethereals, not even terribly aware of what the humans are currently up to. Often, the difference is in the humans, or caused by them. Worlds where JFK wasn't assassinated to worlds where the South won the American Civil War to a world where "Alf" is still on prime-time TV in 2001. While some Word-bound Celestials may be different in these worlds, the Archangels are often the same. Sometimes the laws of physics are different. Suffice to say there are worlds where Sorcerers are vastly more powerful than they are in most, and not always is this obviously the case. Humans refer to the concept of different, parallel worlds as "alternate realities." Angels who are aware of all the different Symphonies refer to the aggregate as "the Repertoire," as in the standard selection of Symphonies that God has composed and decided to "play". Demons who are aware of the different Symphonies refer to them as "the Cacophony", because most of the Fallen with such awareness believe the wildly clashing Symphonies are proof God is missing, dead, insane, or all three. Those looking for a neutral term sometimes call all these Symphonies "the Corpus", as in the body of "work" known to exist, God or not. * The Exclusive Social Club of Small Infinites * Just because there are an infinite number of Symphonies, does not mean all possible worlds exist. All worlds seem to be made of the same Forces, and have a Celestial, Corporeal, and Ethereal plane, though the connection between them, and the rules of the Corporeal plane may vary. All worlds have angels, or at least had them at one time. All worlds have demons, if only those that visit those worlds as ordered by Adad, Demon Prince of the Cacophony. Ask any mathematician; some infinities are smaller than others. No one, even beings like Yves, fully understand why certain Symphonies exist and others do not. Who knows about the Corpus? To start with, God knows, assuming He still exists. There are Symphonies where the Metatron still lives, but God still speaks little nowadays. In any case, God has decreed that no one -- not even most Angels, or even Archangels -- are to know about the Repertoire. There are two opposing Superiors who are aware of the Corpus. One is Syth, the Archangel of the Repertoire, and his opposing number Adad, Demon Prince of the Cacophony. Yves, being an aspect of God, is also aware of the Corpus, and so is Kronos. In fact, these four beings -- Syth, Adad, Kronos and Yves -- are unique in all Symphonies. That is, the *same* Yves exists in every Symphony, and the *same* Adad exists in every Symphony, and so on, while most Symphonies have their own version of, say, Michael. (In fact, Michael is Fallen in at least one Symphony.) This is one of the reasons Yves is so easy-going about failure: Though failure is painful, things may be going much better several worlds over. Lucifer knows. At least, most versions of him know. The fact that there are Redeemed -- or unFallen -- versions of Lucifer in some Symphonies would seem to indicate that there is more than one version of Lucifer, and yet, when Kronos told Adad of the Cacophony, and after he petitioned Lucifer for his Word, Adad went to several worlds and Lucifer seemed to already know him and his secret, though Kronos claimed to have never told those Lucifers. Kronos is silent on the issue and Adad has been told different things by different Lightbringers at different times. At least once Lucifer told him that the Redeemed and unFallen versions of himself were actually a different entity more properly known as Satan. As always, the Lightbringer is an enigma. No one is sure if Eli knows or not, or even if there are more than one of him, or only one. Certainly, there have been no reports of a Fallen Eli in most of the known Symphonies. Some individual entities from particular Symphonies know the secret. A version of Jean here, a version of Vapula there, a version of Thoth or two here and there. Most versions of Litheroy know, but keep mum at the request of Yves and God. Several Princes of Secrets know, but this is not considered a problem, usually, as they help keep the matter quiet. Usually entities "in the know" get a talking-to by Syth or Adad and leave the world-hopping to others. Those that don't often get... hurt. At least twice Syth and Adad have joined forces to destroy a version of Vapula that had gotten out of hand. It is rumored that Legion knew, and existed in more than one Symphony at once -- which is another reason he had to be destroyed. * Nuts and Bolts * Moving between Symphonies is extremely unnatural. It causes a Disturbance with a +30 to the roll to detect. However, since God wants to keep the existence of the Corpus a secret, even a check digit of 6 will not reveal what has happened -- just an exact distance and direction, as well as approximate magnitude. Still, most beings capable of it prefer to shift between Symphonies while, say, in the middle of the Sahara Desert. Some demons refer to World-Hopping as "changing tempo". A soul can normally only exist in one Symphony at a time. Alternate versions of a particular person have different souls, and humans who die in the wrong place will have their soul return to their proper Symphony before its fate is decided as normal. The other effect of this is that if a Kyriotate that is possessing a couple hosts and one shifts to another Symphony, that vessel is no longer possessed. To go to another Symphony, a Kyriotate usually needs to restrict itself to one host, as its soul can only be in one Symphony at a time. Also, Celestials who die in a Symphony other than their own snap back to their Heart (in their home Symphony) if they have one, or go to the local version of Limbo (or equivalent) if not. Servitors of Adad and Syth are not immune to this. Most have a "home base" Symphony that their Heart is stored in. Moving between Symphonies is always a dangerous proposition. Whenever it is done, whether through a device or an Attunement or a Song, a d666 should be rolled, because there is a chance of an Intervention if a 111 or a 666 is rolled. The GM is encouraged to be creative about Interventions in this situation -- positive interventions may cause the character to arrive in a more favorable position in the world than normal, while negative interventions may push the character into an entirely different world than intended. [next: Syth, Archangel of the Repertoire] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:56:12 -0500 From: "Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki" Subject: IN> Repertoire of the Corpus of Cacophony, Part 2: Syth If you're in my campaign, don't read the below. This means you, Phineas and Eric. ;) (spoiler space for my campaign) Okay, I need comments on the ideas below. Interesting? Confusing? And do you think everything about the Superiors involved is generally balanced? Part 1 is the basic idea, Part 2 is a Superior, and Part 3 (still under construction) is the opposing Superior. This is part 2. - --- ** Syth, Archangel of the Repertoire ** "Every world is precious and free. We must work to keep them that way." Syth was the first Kyriotates created by Yves after the first version of the Fall, in one of the oldest Symphonies. She (Syth favors female hosts) was told about the Repertoire, and given her Word by God Himself, who swore her to secrecy. It is Syth's job to undo the damage to the Repertoire done by the demons. Like some of John Cage's compositions, every Symphony was designed to allow for Free Will, especially on the part of the humans, but demonic resonances damage any Free Will other than their own. Syth must quietly alter history in each Symphony so that, in the end, the actions of the demons do not interfere with the actions of humans. She is aided in this endeavor by Yves, who is interested in the Destiny of the Repertoire as a whole. Syth does not vote in the Seraphim Council (as most of her fellow Archangels do not even know she exists), and her angels pretend to work for other Archangels when encountered on Earth. They must be careful how they work, lest they give themselves away. They are often given incomprehensible and odd instructions (i.e. "make sure Hitler is not assassinated"), which they obey willingly and without question, because they know that only Syth and Yves understand the "big picture". A great weight is on their shoulders, because if they fail to nudge a Symphony correctly, the damage may be irreversible, and Syth will end up withdrawing her angels from that Symphony entirely. Because of the need for secrecy, Syth makes extensive use of humans, including a cadre of Soldiers who are aware of what's going on. In fact, Syth's Soldiers are some of the most loyal in the War, because Syth accepts only those that have proven themselves as Soldiers for other Archangels and Syth's servitors often refer to a particular Symphony by an idiosyncratic nickname, perhaps with a number to distinguish between very similar Symphonies. Reich-1 is the worst "the Nazis won" versions of the Symphony, while Oops-10 is a Symphony where all the Demon Princes listed in the main _In Nomine_ rulebook Redeemed at some point. An important aspect of Syth's Word is the idea that everything, every Symphony, serves a purpose in God's plan. There is a reason God created every one, even if the reasons remain ineffable to even beings with an awareness as broad as Syth or Yves. This also means certain Symphonies that one can imagine were excluded for a reason. (There are no Symphonies without angels, for example, though there are Symphonies were all of them were killed or Fell.) * Dissonance * It is dissonant for one of Syth's angels to reveal the existence of the Corpus to someone who does not already know the secret, through their words or their actions. Also, it is dissonent for them to encourage, through their words or actions, the belief that the universe (or multiverse) is meaningless. (It's okay, though not encouraged, to allow someone to have a negative opinion of that meaning, just so long as they do not succumb to nihilism.) While it is not dissonent for an Servitor of the Repertoire to disobey a direct order, few of them do, no matter how incomprehensible that order is. * Choir Attunements * Seraphim (restricted) By making a resonance check, one of Syth's Seraphs can determine if an individual is "native" to the Symphony they are currently in, i.e. whether they traveled to this Symphony from another one. Angels of the Repertoire and demons who serve Adad (regardless of where they were created, where their Heart is, or who they used to serve) always show up as "non-native" to this attunement. Ofanim Ofanim are attuned to the entropy caused by their Fallen counterparts, the Calabim. When a demon does something that alters the history of a Symphony (GM's call), it causes a +10 Disturbance that only someone with this attunement can hear, +15 if the change was caused by a Calabim. Elohim (restricted) Syth's Elohim are charged with making sure those around them do not lose their perspective on the Corpus. On a successful resonance roll, in addition to whatever information is gleaned, an Elohim of the Repertoire knows if an action they are about to take will encourage nihilistic beliefs in the person resonated on. Malakim Upon arriving in a particular Symphony, a Malakim of the Repertoire becomes familiar with all the most common weapons and/or weapon systems in that Symphony, gaining a skill in them at a level equal to the Malakim's Ethereal Forces for as long as he is in that particular Symphony. (If the angel has a skill in that weapon already, it takes precedence only if it is higher. It does not combine with the "phantom" skill levels gained through this attunement.) A weapon is "common" if it is easily available and instantly recognizable in most dominant cultures on the Earth in question. In our world (early 21st century Earth), for example, most pistols are common, while, say, polearms and plasma weapons are not. The GM's decision is final as to what is common and what is not. Kyriotates (restricted) A Kyriotate of the Repertoire can possess hosts in different Symphonies, unlike most Kyriotates. Also, they gain no dissonance for not taking care of a host that believes the universe is meaningless. (Generally only humans count for this. Animals don't have time for philosophy, unless the GM decides there are uplifted or otherwise sapient animals in some Symphonies.) Mercurians While Yves believes everyone is important, Syth understands that certain individuals are often pivotal in a particular Symphony's history. A Mercurian of the Repertoire can look at a person and know, in an instant, if they have the potential to be such a person, are currently engaged in a historic endeavor, or have already engendered a major change. The angel doesn't know why this person is pivotal or even the details -- he just knows if a person is "important" or not, in terms of seriously affecting their local Symphony within their lifetime. For some reason, Celestials never show up as "important" when using this attunement. Grigori (restricted) It is up to the GM if there are Symphonies where the Grigori were never Outcast. If any such Symphonies exist, Syth has Grigori Servitors. The Perception of a Grigori of the Repertoire is doubled for the purpose of detecting disturbances by demons not native to the Symphony the Grigori is currently in (all demons of Adad count). * Servitor Attunements * Celestial Chameleon This powerful attunement allows the angel to duplicate any angelic Servitor Attunement (not Choir Attunements, Songs, or anything demonic) that the angel has seen in operation. (It is safe to assume most Servitors of Syth have seen most of, if not all of, the Servitor Attunements in the main _In Nomine_ rulebook.) It is used to aid Syth's angels when posing as another Archangel's servitors. Using this attunement costs 5 Essence, or 2 more Essence than the use of the Servitor Attunement being duplicated would cost, whichever is greater. Servitors of Syth that have been "around" have access to some very... unusual... attunements through this power. Ask some of them about the Archangel of Steam, or the Malakim version of Novalis. World-Walker This allows the servitor to shift to any Symphony that exists, assuming the servitor had been there before or the world has been described to them, in detail, for at least an hour, and the Symphony so described actually exists. This attunement costs 6 Essence to use, and will place the angel in about the same spot on Earth in the new Symphony, as close as possible without having the servitor appear in solid matter. Sometimes (GM's whim), metaphysical/thematic geography is more important than physical geography -- if one uses this attunement while atop the Empire State Building, and the Empire State Building was moved to London in the Symphony being moved into, the servitor may end up in London. If the servitor doesn't have 6 Essence, or is in a rush, he can spend all the Essence he has (at least one -- those empty of Essence can't use this attunement) and he will shift over to a "nearby" (similiar history and physics, different details) Symphony of the GM's choice. Though by no means a hard and fast rule, servitors who use this "escape route" a lot find that the less Essence they have to spend, the worse the world they end up in generally is. This use of the attunement is generally frowned on. Not all those who serve Syth have this attunement. Some are assigned to a particular Symphony, and some have technological devices or Artifacts capable of Symphony-shifting assigned to them (though, in game terms, these should cost an comparable amount (or more) in character points). * Distinctions * Vassal of the Corpus The angel gains the skill Knowledge (World History)/6 for each Symphony he has been to, and for each Symphony he enters subsequently. This Knowledge skill covers the broadest points of the Celestial and Corporeal history of the Symphony in question, like one might expect from a Celestial-aware textbook. Friend of Meaning By spending 1 Essence per hour the effect is to last, anyone within Ethereal Forces yards of the angel gains a bonus to their Will roll to resist demonic resonances equal to the angel's Celestial Forces. Master of Infinity Angels who have this Distinction have always been granted the World-Walker attunement first. They can now use that attunement at no Essence cost. They still cause a huge Disturbance, however, including additional Disturbance as if they'd spent the Essence. * Relations * Since most Archangels don't know Syth exists, they're pretty neutral about her. Those that do know about the Corpus and Syth are usually considered "associated", at least within the Symphony that Archangel is native to. There may be a knowledgeable version of Michael around that resents Syth like he does Yves. Syth generally stays out of politics that pertain to a particular Symphony, as she's seen certain gambits (like Dominic's persecution of Eli) work or not work, depending on (often times) how weak, low-level angels handle things. Allied: Yves Associated: Different versions of different Archangels, here and there Hostile: None * Basic Rites * - - Convince a nihilist that the universe is not meaningless without using anything other than conversation, and without revealing the existence of the Corpus. (+3 Essence) - - Slay the vessel of a demon who is not native to a particular Symphony (all demons of Adad count). - - Undo an act done by a demon, no matter how trivial. (Give that lollypop back to that child.) * Chance of Invocation: 0 * Syth is very busy; she has a lot of worlds to keep track of. * Invocation Modifiers * +1 Detailed World Map of the Earth the Servitor is currently on +2 An Encylopedia or other extensive reference work dedicated to the world the servitor is currently on +3 Destroy evidence of a Symphony other than the one the servitor is currently in +4 The dead body of a Servitor of Adad +5 Proof that the history of the local Symphony was greatly changed by the intervention of demons (like a Demon Princess causing an Ice Age) +6 A new device or Artifact capable of moving someone between Symphonies ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:27:45 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence vs. Baal Baal is an enemy of Laurence, not associated. And in many ways (and I'm sure that Baal would hate me saying this), Laurence works more as an enemy of his then Michael. Firstly, currently Laurence leads the armies of Heaven, in opposition to Baal's armies of Hell. Secondly, despite the similarities in their names, Michael and Baal's words don't totally match. Michael controls battles, wars, skirmishes, champions, etc., whereas Baal is concerned specifically with the war between Heaven and Hell. According to Superiors 1, Laurence's word is all the forces that the Host can use against Hell (the "Sword" which is used to destroy the forces of Darkness). If Baal's word is the War between Heaven and Hell, and Laurence's word is the forces of Heaven, then they complement each other pretty well, and make good foes. So Baal would have Laurence for an enemy, not an ally. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Phipps To: Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 9:51 PM Subject: IN> Suggestions for Elizabeth > > Basically Baal would look like this. > > Allied: See In Nomine main book > > Associated: See in Nomine main book, Laurence, David > > Enemy: Michael, Malphas > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:43:22 +0100 From: Benediktq@t-online.de (Benedikt) Subject: IN> angelic/demonic lore Hy, I´m trying to do a different background for in Nomine that is a little bit closer to traditional angelic and demonic lore. The problem is, that I need some good ressources. Can anyone tell me webpages, books etc... where I can get some information? C u, Samiel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:52:42 -0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> angelic/demonic lore Hi, the dictionary of angels, by gustav davidson is a good start. it has lots in there that is of use. >Hy, > >I´m trying to do a different background for in Nomine that is a little bit >closer >to traditional angelic and demonic lore. The problem is, that I need some >good >ressources. Can anyone tell me webpages, books etc... where I can get some >information? Cass - -There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole- Murphy's Law, Combatants Edition. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:10:09 EST From: SirOzbold@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: possible David Tether sorry to have started an off-topic thread. but I have never heard of such a thing as the Masons worshipping a fallen angel and a pagan god, and I should know as I am the Junior Warden of my lodge (a lodge offer 3rd in charge). althought the thought of David fighting Alemon on this front of the war would be an interesting story arc Sincerely, Bill Carlson 2B1Ask1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:55:19 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> angelic/demonic lore Benedikt wrote: > I´m trying to do a different background for in Nomine that is a > little bit closer to traditional angelic and demonic lore. The > problem is, that I need some good ressources. Can anyone tell me > webpages, books etc... where I can get some information? I second Cassandra's recommendation of Davidson's "Dictionary of Angels." I got mine used through bibliofind.com For the nearest thing to an "official" pronouncement on angels, see Thomas Aquinas' "Summa Theologica," in particular the following Web page: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/110800.htm Aquinas's angels, being pure and vastly superhuman mentalities, aren't great roleplaying models, but he does talk about the celestial hierarchy and its divisions of labor. The hierarchy he uses is the one put about by Pseudo-Dionysius, which was the commonest, most traditional one by far, in the Middle Ages. Look for C. S. Lewis's "Preface to Paradise Lost." (Available from Amazon.com for $15.) This gives great background on a poem that has become a very traditional source for the Fall and the War. (And, of course, you could read "Paradise Lost" itself.) Lewis also talks some about Milton's views on angelic nature. Here is a miscellany of links about angels and demons: http://www.sarahsarchangels.com/archangels/9orders.html http://www.inil.com/users/edamoth/hier.html http://www.ifi.ntnu.no/~farstad/angels.html http://www.theology.edu/theology/angel.htm http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/8417/links.html The Book of Enoch, source for the Grigori story: http://www.altheim.com/lit/enoch.html Children of Fire, another angels game: http://www.mimgames.com/cof/ Lilith pages: http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/Garden/4240/ http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/humm/Topics/Lilith/lilith.html http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/950206_Lilith.html Rosetti's poem, implying (as did Michelangelo) that Lilith was the serpent in Eden: http://www.lilitu.com/lilith/eden.html A Kaballah page from which you can get some good angel stuff, with a little shopping (try the FAQ): http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/ For that matter, I've worked up my own angelic RPG system, which I kept more traditional than IN. If you want to see it, just ask. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:58:07 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: Re: IN> Re: possible David Tether - -----Original Message----- From: SirOzbold@aol.com To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Friday, February 23, 2001 8:17 AM Subject: IN> Re: possible David Tether >sorry to have started an off-topic thread. but I have never heard of such a >thing as the Masons worshipping a fallen angel and a pagan god, and I should >know as I am the Junior Warden of my lodge (a lodge offer 3rd in charge). >althought the thought of David fighting Alemon on this front of the war would >be an interesting story arc No problem. I'm no Mason myself, but I understand that the group is mostly a social group, and not a dark cult or anything. Still, you do have a point. It would make for an interesting subject to have David fight Aleamon for control of the Masons. And possibly even other secret societies. Maybe the Bavarian Illuminati were inspired by Gabriel? - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:12:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: possible David Tether The Masons, along with Catholics and Jews, very often get cast in the role of international conspirators with Dark Secrets (tm) and plans to Rule the World (pat. pend.) by conspiracy mongers. In his two interesting works on general fringeiness, "The Occult Underground" and "The Occult Establishment," James Webb proposes that what REALLY gets the conspiracy mongers is that all three of these groups are international. The conspiracy mongers have a chaunvinist tinge to their paranoia, and thus do not trust any group that calls for loyalties that cross national boundaries. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:51:54 -0500 (EST) From: Ryan M Roth Subject: Re: IN> This actually boggled Moe On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Eric Bertish wrote: > Pendrathias > Kyriotate Friend of the Shareholders > > Rites: (need help here) > Suggestions: - Help a corporation come into being, either by assisting a small business into becoming one or by breaking apart a larger, failing corporation. - Help bring a corporation's profits from the red into the black. - Study corporate law for 12 hours. - Make a full analysis of a corporation's finanical standing. Ryan Roth ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:26:08 -0600 From: Jacob Williamson Subject: Re: IN> angelic/demonic lore cassandra benner wrote: > Hi, > the dictionary of angels, by gustav davidson is a good start. > it has lots in there that is of use. Agreed, the Dictionary of Angels is the best non-fiction an IN gamemaster can pick up for reference. It's great for on-the-spot NPCs and quick write-ups of the "real world" choirs. Angels: An Endangered Species, by Malcolm Godwin, is the other Most Useful Tome for IN use I have on my shelf. It's a point-by-point examination of the angel myth, starting with a list of the Orders of Angels ("choirs" in IN), with a focus on archangels in particular; then there's a useful chapter on the Fallen Angels and a good overview of demonology; the history of the angel myth; a cross-cultural examination of angels, with other religion's views; alternative ideas of angels (hallucinations, racial memory, UFOs...). Lots of pictures--it's a good art book. Next, for "real world" angel lore, pick up The Other Bible, edited by Willis Barnstone. This has a lot of "alternative scriptures" to the canon Christian bible, including early Jewish creation stories (featuring Adam's Three Wives and Lilith), the Book of Enoch (both of them--this text is where almost all JudeoChristian Angel lore comes from, together with the Kaballah, which also gets a dozen pages--useful stuff on the Grigori here). It's a "Best Of," so you don't get the whole scripture, but it's also one of the neatest reference books out there. Give it to all your strange friends. Read "Revelations" from the Bible, too. Some colorful descriptions of the Eternal City there. Sean Kelly and Rosemary Rogers put together two useful references: "Saints Preserve Us! Everything you need to know about every Saint you'll ever need"--not bad as a who's who of Heaven, though it skimps on the angels. "Who in Hell...a Guide to the Whole Damn Bunch" is an excellent intro to the cast and characters of Hell, with a lot of interesting demons in Hell's bureaucracy, and almost every person consigned to Hell in some public manner. Both of these are written in a clever, chatty and funny way, so the characters are generally given enough personality to use as a quick NPC. I've consolidated some of Davidson and other "real world" angels in a project I did last year of theoretical wordbounds (never got around to submitting it). The list duplicates a lot of the efforts of the incyclopedia, though: http://members.tripod.com/~Theslin/wordbound.html Jacob Williamson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:20:59 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Re: possible David Tether In all fairness, Alan Moore does say that in From Hell he places the Masons in a darker light then they are. And I haven't really read anythign about them besides that. Of course, even if some of them do pray to Baal, it is as a god and not a demon (he was originally a god before being appropriated by the Jews and Christians). - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 5:10 AM Subject: IN> Re: possible David Tether > sorry to have started an off-topic thread. but I have never heard of such a > thing as the Masons worshipping a fallen angel and a pagan god, and I should > know as I am the Junior Warden of my lodge (a lodge offer 3rd in charge). > althought the thought of David fighting Alemon on this front of the war would > be an interesting story arc > > Sincerely, > Bill Carlson > 2B1Ask1 > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:42:25 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Improvements for a second edition At 10:26 PM -0500 2/22/01, William J. Keith wrote: >>At 12:48 PM -0500 2/22/01, Jonathan Walton wrote: >>>4) Flavor text and interesting prose. No offense to Elizabeth and Walter, >>>but GURPS: IN was pretty dry reading. > >Err. I have to proffer the exact opposite opinion; any gaming text which >can incorporate a sidebar entitled "Angels and their Colas" is pretty >flavorful IMHO. ^_^ (Swiped nearly verbatim from the original, alas. Demons and their Driving was all ours, though. That is kinda what I mean, though -- most of the dry mechanics that we added _were_ dry (though many GURPSians might disagree, prefering those tastes), but those are generally confined to the areas talking about mechanics. It's just that the ratios have tipped a bit in places.) >(Just out of curiosity, is there a single overarching storyline connecting >the demon and angelic flavor bits at the top of each Choir and Band? Not by intent. If you could _make_ it one, or an adventure, or something... That would be wonky. (It should be noted that at least a couple of the vignettes are "flipsides" of the IN vignettes; little easter eggs like this, to encourage the GIN readers to get the original system too... O;> ) >My only wish for additional G:IN material (yeah, yeah, nothing's coming out >GURPS-flavored, I know) would be greater detail on Ethereal Spirits -- >there are no mechanics listed for constructing Ethereal characters in G:IN. Eh? What's that half-page on p. GIN25, then? >I also hope you will take it as a compliment if I say, pondering page >counts and the relative importance of each item, that I don't think >anything could or should have been left out. ;^) Whew! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2075 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.