From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Feb 25 23:01:52 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA10583 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:01:51 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id XAA07273 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:06:11 -0600 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:06:11 -0600 Message-Id: <200102260506.XAA07273@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2079 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, February 25 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2079 In this digest: Re: IN> Nicole (was second edition) IN> Nicole Re: IN> Nicole (was second edition) Re: IN> Nicole (was second edition) Re: IN> Nicole Re: IN> Nicole Re: IN> The Angel of Prisons Re: IN> Nicole (was second edition) Re: IN> keeping the existence of alternate worlds secret IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> The Angel of Prisons IN> The Angel of Prisons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:28:08 -0800 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> Nicole (was second edition) From: "Janet Anderson" >Attempting to >argue that immobilizing someone by causing him to be >"thrown back across the alley by some invisible force, >knives spinning out of his hands as he hit the brick >wall and slid down, landing face-first on the >pavement" is not actually violent would earn any >player of mine _two_ points of violence: one for the >action and one for the implied insult to my >intelligence. <> Better yet, leave Tariel the Djinn alone, and have Nicole Fall in a later supplement. Whether forcibly restraining your attuned is screamingly dissonant for a Cherub is a matter of GM interpretation...I suppose. But guess which interpretation I favor. --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:37:11 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Nicole NICOLE CANNOT FALL! Upfront! That's what I'm saying. She makes a good Ofanite and also a good Seraphim or Elohite too. Gabriels a cool superior too ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:40:34 -0800 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> Nicole (was second edition) From: "Kish" <> Replying to myself to clarify that I mean "forcibly restrain" as in "tie up so that she doesn't go anywhere where she might be in danger," not "hold so that your five-year-old attuned doesn't run into traffic." The first one would be dissonant (at least imho), the second would not. --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:29:56 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Nicole (was second edition) At 9:10 PM -0500 2/25/01, Eric Bertish wrote: >I always thought the easiest thing to do was make her a Dominican. They can >hurt and kill humans if it's deserved, and it can be argued that betraying >Heaven and becoming Hellsworn is a capital offense... I would think the story and its tone would be changed more by making her a Dominican than by making her an Ofanite. As a Dominican, the invocation scene not only would be different, it couldn't happen at all. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:50:46 -0800 (PST) From: scott hillman Subject: Re: IN> Nicole - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > NICOLE CANNOT FALL! > > Upfront! > > That's what I'm saying. > > She makes a good Ofanite and also a good Seraphim or > Elohite too. > > Gabriels a cool superior too > > ;-) Better idea all together- If your going to write a new eddition make a new story. It adds to the flavor. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 03:47:49 +0000 From: Pak Chan Subject: Re: IN> Nicole At 21:37 25/02/2001 -0500, Charles Phipps wrote: >NICOLE CANNOT FALL! Quick! Get her to heaven for study, NOW. Now that we have one example of a non-Malakite angel who cannot fall, we may be able to find a way to stop all angels from falling. >;-) =;-) Pak ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:04:57 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Prisons >Got any suggestions on how my Angel of Correctional Facilities should >proceed in altering the attitude of his outcast and demonic prisonners to >redeem them? > >-Exit the LoneWolf Whew... redeeming demons and Outcasts is probably a whole subject of study in Heaven. (And seeing as how I wrote up a whole Archangel on the subject, let me expound. :^) ) For starters, I think the a priori assumptions for most angels are these: Demons are irredeemable. Humans are always redeemable. Outcasts are probably redeemable. By "a priori assumptions," what I mean is that this will be taken as the general attitude _without_further_information_. Any given demon is assumed to be devoted to his nature *until and unless* he gives signals that he might consider switching sides. (Thus soul-killing one without further question is justifiable, whereas doing so to a Redemption candidate is not.) Any given human is always assumed to still have within him the capability of overcoming the evil he has done; that's the nature of Free Will, at least for humans. Outcasts are still angels -- the very existence of the state indicates they still have a chance, and presumably the motivation. Now, for a lot of the issues I'm raising, I'm going to be mentioning my own Archangel of Redemption, who's obviously non-canon but fits so well with this subject I just have to add it on. If Mahanehdan is *really* interested in this subject, he might consider a transfer. ;^) At any rate, the angels of Redemption would instead assume a priori, in the order above, that the subjects were difficult to redeem, always worthwhile to attempt to redeem, and deserving of the effort to redeem. So then. We'll stick to Outcasts and demons. An Outcast may not necessarily have given any signals that they *want* to Redeem, but there are some standard options. None of them are perfect, but then there already exists a problem, so anything better approximates a solution. First off, occasionally the Dissonance really was a rare or one-time thing. Like the gamers say, "crits happen." In this case, the Outcast is probably going to be shocked, sorry, repentant, and eager to return to the fold. We'll assume in the future that it's a behavior pattern. Word Dissonance If the Dissonance was from his Word Dissonance condition, he might consider a transfer; for example, a too-violent angel of Novalis might want to head to Michael's service. A Laurencian constantly going AWOL might be advised to seek permission to enter Janus' ranks. Getting this to occur could be as simple as finding the Outcast, explaining the proposition, and getting him into a position to present his petition his old and new Archangel's organizations. The Outcast is also best advised to present a humble posture when doing so; an attitude of "Sorry, Larry, your ways are too hidebound for me" is not going to get him far. If he for some reason wants to stay with his current Archangel, then he needs to get a firmer grasp of the underlying principles of his Word; this is a matter of "retraining," as it were. If the Archangel wishes to put in the effort, one way to go about this (and a way I think the Angel of Correctional Facilities would prefer) would be to isolate them to a certain degree on Earth, and lower their celestial "rank," treating them rather like rookies being watched over and retrained, taught and reshaped. They would have some of the easier corporeal assignments and possibly a mentor as a supervisor. A more extreme option would be to isolate them completely, under guard, in a place where they can no longer indulge in the Dissonant behavior. Taking away a Stone angel's gun, or holding a Wind angel in a moving detention unit, for example, would do. After this has been achieved, a program roughly equivalent to psychoanalysis and retraining (or, in a darker campaign, brainwashing and indoctrination) aimed at getting the angel to understand what exactly is so wron about what he's doing would start. Angels from the detainee's Word would come by for a chat every now and then, or possibly a sparring session, depending on what the detainee would respond to. Flowerchildren would sip tea and talk about the necessity of a nonviolent Word in Heaven's ranks; Jeanites would lay out the projections and statistics on human behavior patterns after exposure to over-advanced technology. After a set amount of time (chosen by either Judgment, or the Archangel the errant angel serves) dependent probably on the seriousness of the crimes and the possibility of success, either the angel has capitulated and shows an honest desire to reform, or not. If he does, he takes his punishment, maybe gets recalled to Heaven, and after paying his dues becomes a Servitor in good standing again. If not, he's thrown to Judgment for the last trial. The unrepentant who won't even take service with a more like-minded AA, even when they know what awaits them if they don't... well, there's simply nothing to do for them. At this point, it's soul-death, Force/memory stripping, or in rare cases exile. Remember, when the Vessel doesn't age, prison could last *forever*. It can only be maintained if the organization is willing to put in the resources, the angel is submitting to captivity with reasonable grace (bear in mind that they can always try to go Celestial and escape, which would put guards in great danger; I don't know how reliable any artifacts that force a celestial to stay in their Vessel are), and there exists the possibility of ending captivity at some time. Notice that Kyriotates have a major disadvantage as detainees. Basically you'd need to make sure there was a plentiful supply of small-animal hosts on hand, and the angel would be willing not to attempt escape. If an angel of Marc with Divine Contract is around, he can make escape attempts painful, but that's about it. Choir Dissonance Here you have substantially more problems, but a couple of plusses as well. First off, a transfer to another Word isn't going to help you. Second, a good number of Choir Dissonance conditions can't be avoided by detainment (for Ofanim, be sure to have a large, paceable containment area with things to *do* in it!). Kyriotates require hosts regardless, although those Word Attunements which allow inanimate or personal Vessels are somewhat easier. Cherubim risk Dissonance merely by attempting to sever any Attunements they currently have. A Seraph being interrogated may try to deceive, an Elohite can easily get emotional and rage at his captors, an Ofanite may give up and become still. Malakim can take it easier, but then they didn't have to worry about Falling anyway. Mercurians merely need to be kept away from humanity. Each needs a separate tack: For a Seraph, someone with the Song of Truth(Celestial) at high level, and/or a Seraph with Truthswearing, can be useful in conversations with the Seraph. Their goal is to ferret out why the Most Holy has been lying, and what might have been a better course of action(almost any...). Fortunately, there is a quick way to keep a Seraph from lying any more; he can follow someone up to Heaven! Once there, a suitably long period of time on celestial duty, speaking Angelic, may cure the Seraph of his tendency to prevarication. For Cherubim, support staff will probably need to track down the Guardian's charges and protect them, just in case. Dissonance may have occurred as a result of forces somewhat beyond the Cherub's control; if the angel has gone Outcast as a result of losing too many charges and being unable to hunt down their destroyers, what he may need isn't prison, but combat and security training. On the other hand, if he's been deliberately attempting to break one or more bonds, the question is why. Perhaps he needs to exercise more restraint in choosing charges. The thing to watch out for is a sense of uncaringness about his attuneds; once he doesn't feel that they're worth his loyalty anymore, he's fast on the path to becoming a Djinn. The only real ways to deal with this are to return him to Heaven sans Attuneds for readjustment, or to find out what he thinks *is* worth his loyalty, and try to get that to grow. Another thing to watch out for is a sense of his charges as actually belonging to him; one quick remedy for this latter is to have him share charges with other Cherubim. Besides providing double security for the Attuned in question and providing a mentor for the Cherub, it can decrease a sense of the charge as "belonging" to the Cherub. What Ofanim need is either pep -- in case of having slowed too much -- or control -- in case of overusing their Resonance. The good news is, angels don't fatigue, so getting an Ofanite moving again may be similar to treating depression in humans. Overusing their Resonance for physical boost, on the other hand, is more of a problem; too much energy and not enough control can quickly lead to the urge to Break Stuff. Elohim are actually pretty good for this sort of thing; their job is to help the Ofanite to seek balance between his natural urge towards energy and the need for control, often couching it in terms of doing the most *effective* job. The Elohim themselves constitute a major problem. Their Dissonance condition is not only the toughest when away from humans, it's the easiest to fall prey to in confinement. Confinement in itself is a state almost guaranteed to bring out emotional responses, and tends to narrow one's viewpoint to the immediate surroundings. However, if the staff can manage to remain calm, the task is to persuade the Elohite to think *long-term*; the simplified conditions inherent in confinement, along with the lack of surprising stimuli, can help the angel refocus on the bigger picture. In this case the "behavior modification programs" mentioned probably have the best chance of working, if they are designed to reward longer-term thinking and behaviors. One of the first steps toward this kind of thing is to convince the Power that it's in the long-term interest of the Symphony for him to regain his balance. Also, the Powers can rid themselves of dissonance generated by self-involvement to the detriment of the larger picture by retreating to a state of total calm for one week; prison is, while not exactly as ideal as, say, a mountain retreat, a reasonable place to do such a thing. For a Malakite to be Choir-Dissonant, and seeking return, is a fairly unusual situation. In general, this will happen from one of three things. First, his Oaths are impossible to fulfill, in which case the only real treatment is to have his Archangel replace the Oaths causing the problem. This is deeply shaming, but if he wants to return to being a Warrior of Heaven in good standing, that's what it will take. Second, he's been surrendering. This is just pathetic, and will probably require some noble sacrifice to get him back into good standing. Third, he's been allowing evils to live, having been given the choice. These will probably be a lot of different personal cases, requiring individual handling. In the cases of a lot of Malakim, "individual handling" may be rather more violent than can be managed within the context of confinement; the nature of the Virtues demands rather that they work off their problems on the front lines whenever possible. In short, confinement does not seem like a generally good option with Choir-dissonant Malakim. A Choir-Dissonant Kyriotate has not been protecting its hosts properly; what may be required to alter their perspective is time with a Cherub, possibly one attuned to the Kyriotate; this will cause the Cherub to seek protection of the Kyriotate's hosts, as well, in the hopes that this attitude will cross-seed. Questions should be investigated as to the causes of the Kyriotate's damaged hosts; whether it is helter-skelter leaving memory-challenged hosts naked in the square, or whether it is abandoning hosts in danger. The good news for Mercurians is that once they are away from humans, there is guaranteed to be no more Choir Dissonance accumulated. Flowerchildren, Dreamers, and Redeemers are all good examples; on the other hand, Laurencians, Michaelites, and Stone angels (especially their Mercurians) all have their own perspective on why even militant organizations can have use for angels who hold their hand when it comes to humans. Discord Discord makes each of these situations more complicated; angels (except for Redemption's Servitors) cannot remove their own Discord, and some Discords make it harder to resist behavior patterns that lead to Dissonance. These will require additional work to design programs which can work around the Discord, possibly by carefully avoiding situations in which it will be triggered when possible. Demons For the most part, demons which are candidates for redemption fall into one of a few categories. They are AWOL without necessarily being Renegade, Renegade, or for those angels who really reel up to the challenge, merely Dissonant. (Discordant Calabim are just being Calabim. ;^) ) However, in most of these cases confinement isn't really the answer. *Hell* was meant as confinement for demons; it didn't really do much good the first time around. In all cases of confinement, a demon can probably be kept, most of the time, from going celestial by dragging their Vessels to a Divine Tether. A couple of nearly-fledged relievers in celestial form can make an excellent guard for long enough to force a rapidly-burning demon back into their Vessel. The AWOL demons are fairly easy to go after; they've already made their decisions. There exist Renegade demons who aren't necessarily out to Redeem; they just want to put their own interests in front of Hell's. However, having put aside the infernal hierarchy, they are in danger from the Game, and if Judgment can be interested in, rather than killing them, capturing them and proffering a better deal than Hell, they can sometimes be persuaded. Key points to go after are: why did they leave Hell in the first place? do they bear angelic-leaning Dissonance or Discord? are they in greater danger from the Game than usual? do they have any character traits, such as admiring a particular virtue or a personal code of some kind of honor, that can be expanded into a full-fledged personality basis? In this case, confinement for short periods may be effective, if only to convince the demon that Judgment's not out to soul-kill him at the moment, but has another option in mind. Lastly, and in large part the province of angels of Redemption, Dreams, Flowers, and Destiny, are demons with identifiably Dissonant behavior patterns that might lead towards Heaven. A quick rundown: Lust, Gluttony, Dark Humor, Fate, Factions, the Media, Death, and Theft all have dissonance conditions that take effect when the demon doesn't do something that supports his Word; dissonance from these Words may indicate that the demon is feeling jaded or disillusioned about his Word and may be open to persuasion that there's a better idea out there. On the other hand, the demon may simply be slacking off; judge wisely when preparing a line of assault. The Game, The War, and Nightmares have dissonance conditions that take effect primarily when disobeying orders. In the case of the first two, it may indicate that the subject has lost confidence in his Superior, while in the latter a mere chafing against the restrictions is implied. A would-be redeemer will need to convince the demon that instead there is an Archangel which is worth his support; he might also consider the possibility that the demon is becoming disillusioned about his Word. However, there is always the third possibility that the demon is merely indulging in a little saving of his own skin, by retreating, going celestial, etc. Fire, Freedom, and Technology have Dissonance conditions that mainly take effect when the demon does something foolish. Be extremely careful if you wish to confine those with Freedom's Dissonance Condition.... Balseraph dissonance can be gained either by wildly prevaricating, or attempting to force their lies on strong-willed persons. In this case, some strong-willed captors can help, if they're willing to rotate guard over the Liar, listen carefully to what's being said, and check each other's notions of Truth regularly. Enough Balseraphic dissonance coming in at regular intervals can lead the Liar to, just possibly, be open to the notion that there's Truth out there that he doesn't control. Divine Logic may have some interesting effects if you want to try it. Djinn can occasionally be manipulated into attuning to things for short periods of time; this involves some "mind games" on the part of the captors. The Cherub-like period of devotion following a failed de-attunement, you must remember, is *insanity* on the part of the Djinn; it's not normal, but it is one way to get them to see things from the other point of view. The trick is to get them to *like* the results. Oresto's story (in the IPG?) is an excellent example of this kind of Redemption. A Calabite with Dissonance is a Calabite who's been trying, but failing, to break things. He's not in the best of moods, and he's Discordant anyway, unless he's a Fate demon, and those are probably some of the toughest nuts to crack. Besides, with that Resonance they're particularly dangerous to keep confined. Rarely does Calabite dissonance indicate a behavior pattern that will lead to angelic personality traits, unless the Calabite has been faking bad resonance uses and taking the Dissonance deliberately, becase he doesn't want to break things as much any more. Maybe it's just not as much fun. If this is the case, an angel might be able to persuade him to go with the flow, and become an Ofanite instead. One thing it's really hard to do is convince someone to become an angel when they already think they are one. While there is a prescribed way to cure a Habbalite of their delusion, it can't be done without both their agreement to use their resonance in a particular way, and a great deal of luck. (However, note that with *two* Punishers, each need only use their resonance successfully on the other. It still takes a Divine Intervention to cure them of their delusion, though.) Instead, consider the Habbalite dissonance. Mostly they will have been gaining it from choosing not to suffer the effects of their own resonance on failed tries; this may indicate some desire to remain at least somewhat calm, rather than submitting to every whim and desire. Confinement in this case may be one of the best options, especially with trained captors who can serve as a check on each other; the lack of stimuli for the Horror can lead to monotony, boredom, and the necessity of patience, all of which can induce a state where they may be more receptive to rational persuasion. (I personally would expect the experience of taking damage, should they attempt to go celestial in a Tether, to be an emotionally disturbing as well as painful experience; immediately after such an attempt, they may be more receptive to the notion that God apparently doesn't think they're angels at the moment.) Remember that what you are aiming at first is the delusion. A Daughter of Lilith with Dissonance is less likely to be considerign Redemption, than pissed off at the ungrateful slime who took her work and didn't give her anything back! Instead, Lilim redemption may best be gained by focusing on the positive aspects of their nature; the ideas of fair trade, the positive aspects of freedom, and the inherent conflict between Geas and Freedom. Lilim who are especially punctilious about repaying favors may be good candidates for this kind of persuasion. Confinement is almost certainly *not* a good option. Shedite Dissonance comes in three flavors. One, the Corruptor has been killing its hosts -- in other words, it's been both vicious *and* stupid. Not particularly Redemption material, although a Shedite who's done it often enough might start having second thoughts about ruining its hosts' lives -- or it may just get a little subtler. Two, it's hit a string of strong-willed hosts recently; in this case, pointing out to it that Kyriotates don't have to deal with thiat particular problem may be a start, but will need serious extra reinforcement to go anywhere. Three, it hasn't been corrupting its hosts; this could again be by accident, or, just possibly, because doing so just doesn't have the same appeal it used to. Distinguishing between the two will probably require careful analysis. For confinement purposes it should be noted that Shedite hosts are both temporary, and human, so long-term confinement isn't really an option. And Impudite Band Dissonance... well, honestly. ;^) Okay, that pretty much wraps an an in-depth look at Redemption techniques for Outcasts and demons, with emphasis on applications of confinement. Hope it helps. William ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:19:22 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Nicole (was second edition) >From: "Kish" ><supplement. > >Whether forcibly restraining your attuned is screamingly dissonant for a >Cherub is a matter of GM interpretation...I suppose. But guess which >interpretation I favor.>> > >Replying to myself to clarify that I mean "forcibly restrain" as in "tie up >so that she doesn't go anywhere where she might be in danger," not "hold so >that your five-year-old attuned doesn't run into traffic." The first one >would be dissonant (at least imho), the second would not. > > --Kish >ICQ# 28085879 >AIM Kish K M Enh, this is certainly subject to interpretation; as long as the Cherub isn't actually harming someone emotionally or socially by restraining them, I'd say he isn't likely to become dissonant, and according to at least one observer his charge didn't seem to mind that much. (Of course, anyone who's read Sun-Cross knows *my* feelings on the matter. The Cherub attunement I gave was the ability to restrain one's charge. ;^) ) Now, tying someone up and coming to them in the basement to check on their physical well-being on a regular basis... well, that's the stuff of horror movies, and definitely dissonant, but that's because of the psychological harm being inflicted continuously. He's being selfish towards the attuned, and rather Djinn-like(I am the only real safe thing in my Attuned's life, I must keep them close to protect them), not dutiful. William ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:41:10 -0500 From: "Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> keeping the existence of alternate worlds secret > First...wouldn't Syth and Adad have access to all of the Songs in the Liber > Canticorum? After all, if they want to learn a Song that is lost or secret > in one Universe, all they need to do is find a Universe where the song is > commonly known. So you might let Syth's and Adad's Celestials use the Songs > of Oblivion and Forgetting with a bonus. Yes. I had that in mind when I did the writeup. I just couldn't figure out a good spot to mention it. ;) > Second...If it's dissonant for a Servitor of Syth to tell anyone about > alternate worlds, then how does Syth manage to recruit a large group of > former soldiers? Do that many Soldier's *really* figure out the secret for > themselves? Perhaps you should change the dissonance condition, so that one > can eliminate dissonance by either recruiting the person you reveal the > secret to into Syth's ranks, or making them forget the secret? Killing them > might also work for Adad. Well, I thought that was implicit. A lot of dissonance conditions allow you do "undo" in some fashion. You make a good point, however. I'll have to add that to the writeup. > I also wonder if Syth might sometimes preserve the secret by shanghaiing > angels who had seen too much into her service. After all, she's got a bigger > job than any of the other Archangels. If she does, it might provide a > interesting way to bring player characters into this version of the game, > And also, since you want Syth's angels to be able to impersonate the > Servitors of other Superiors, Syth's employment of shanghaied angels would > be a way of letting her have angels in Service to her who could use the > Choir and Servitor attunements of their former Superiors, *without* giving > Syth's angels a superpowerful Attunement like Chameleon. Hmmmm. Intersting point. I'll will definitely have to add that in. Can anyone think of a good replacement attunement for Chameleon? Anyone? Bueller? > Syth and Adad might also get help from Yves and Kronos, since they are > already in on the secret. Perhaps Yves and Kronos can in some way give Syth > and Adad's Celestials the equivalent of Roles? So when a Demon of Adad > arrives in a new Universe, he can get some identification planted in the > local Archives which says he's a Demon of Fate? Perhaps Yves and Kronos > might even be fairly generous about giving their Attunements to Syth's and > Adad's Servitors, in order to sustain the illusion? That would certainly be resonable. Consider it stolen. I like the way you think. Thanks. ;) -Loki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 20:52:14 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) Better late than never. I did like the ideas suggested to me, though, and I think that I'll play with some of them later, but this one has real possiblities, I think. :) Moe Project SHIVA This secret governmental group is a notable example of why Dominic allows Asmodeus to conduct Renegade hunts without real interference. Simply put, it's a cult of genocidal nihilists - and the brainchild of a Renegade of Death and a Renegade of Infernal Fire. Project SHIVA was, at the start, just another deniable black project started in the middle of the 1950s. Its purpose was macabre, but legitimate enough, in a horrid sort of way: as both the USA and USSR had begun stockpiling nuclear weapons, with the intent to use them if pushed to the brink, it would be advisable to work out how to use them best. After all, if one were forced to destroy the planet (in order to save it from communism), the entire point of the exercise would be moot if said attempted destruction was incomplete. The project members were thus charged to analyze intelligence reports, geographical studies, statistical analyses - in short, look through all the data on Russia (and later, China), the better to find an optimal way to blow the two countries to Hell. Unfortunately, this sort of job is fairly rough on the average person's long-term sanity. Trying to find people who wouldn't crack on the strain was difficult, but eventually the government was able to refine their selection procedure. They were looking for well-adjusted sociopaths, frankly, and they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams: one of their analysts turned out to be Gregory, Renegade Balseraph of Fire. Why Gregory went Renegade in the first place is actually a bit of a mystery: he certainly was committed to the service of Death. Possibly he was a bit too committed, or possibly Saminga just fudged the paperwork when Asmodeus started asking questions. At any rate, for a while Gregory was quite pleased to hide out and work out the perfect way to incinerate hundreds of millions of people outright, then slowly poison the rest. After a few years, though, he started to become impatient with waiting for the Bomb to drop. He decided to switch from planning to implementation. The first step was to recruit the rest of the project. It was easy enough: most of them were by now subconsciously fascinated with the idea anyway. The next step was to use his new converts to the worship of Death to seek out key members of the US military and government who could be similarly corrupted. The plan was to wait until a time when tensions were high - - inevitable, given the international situation at the time - then push things just enough to trigger a nuclear war. Gregory had such high hopes for the Cuban Missile Crisis: it seemed a perfect scenario for his plans. In fact, it nearly was. If it wasn't for a couple of alert members of the National Security Council, a few broadminded members of the Central Intelligence Agency, and a whole lot of luck, his plan might have succeeded. Stopping the cabal required everything from assassinations to an armed assault on a nuclear missile silo: rooting out the conspirators took over a year. Gregory himself was not killed until the very end, during an attempt to assassinate the Governor of Texas (one of the primary supporters of the investigators). Ironically, an unfortunate side effect of the botched operation was the assassination of John F. Kennedy (who wasn't even a target): this embarrassment, coupled with the sensitive nature of the situation, meant that the US government felt it necessary to completely suppress all facts in the case. When the various celestial groups were belatedly made aware of the crisis, they conducted their own investigation - a even more thorough one than the government's - and ferreted out the Renegade's involvement. The end result was a reaffirmation of Dominic's decision to permit Asmodeus to hunt down Renegades: for every one that wanted Redemption, twenty or more were simply going to run amok. The risks weren't worth it. Unfortunately, what none of the investigators (human or celestial) had discovered was that Gregory had a backup vessel stashed in a Body Bag. When he came out, he spent the next few years building up a suitable Role - and started to insinuate himself into the US government again. This time, he had acquired an ally (Jerome, Renegade Habbalite of Infernal Fire), who would shape the new cult's development. The two are, by now, very high placed government bureaucrats who have carefully vetted their pawns over thirty years of observation. The cult, for the most part, believes that they have been chosen by agents of God to bring about the Final War. Jerome is very ecumenical when it comes to what God he says he's serving: there are Project members from every faith that incorporates a belief in the End Times. Very few Project members know of each other, and no one is certain about just how many co-conspirators there are. Nuclear annihilation is somewhat less likely now, what with the generally poor condition of most ICBMs, so Gregory and Jerome have branched out into biological research. They're sure that eventually they'll be able to get the talking monkeys to push the buttons. Solving this will require the service of Revelations, Judgement or the Game (and this is one time where a PC just might be able to get away with using resources from the Other Side). Failing that, there are still a few people alive who remember the old Project SHIVA crisis: actually, the PCs should instead try getting the ones who are dead. The ones in Heaven will probably enjoy the chance to come back down and play on Earth again. The ones in Hell can't leave, of course, but that's not an issue if one has a spare demon handy to accept the new Ethereal Forces. With their native guides, the PCs can then navigate the bureaucracy, no doubt uncovering all sorts of half-forgotten black projects along the way, until they can trace the head of the conspiracy. However, even with the two Renegades soul-dead, the Project might still continue: it all depends on whether or not your players seem to be enjoying being the Celestials in Black... ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 02/19/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:55:38 +0800 From: Manny Nepomuceno Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Prisons Ei. Some comments: > There exist Renegade demons who aren't necessarily out to Redeem; they just > want to put their own interests in front of Hell's. However, having put > aside the infernal hierarchy, they are in danger from the Game, and if > Judgment can be interested in, rather than killing them, capturing them and > proffering a better deal than Hell, they can sometimes be persuaded. Key > points to go after are: As I understand it, redemption requires a great deal of selflessness on the part of the demon to be successful. I didn't really see anything in the questions and in the general tone of this part of the writeup or the study on redemption to indicate that the demons were being encouraged to be selfless. Similarly, I can't see how all those demons could have chosen to redeem from their experience in the prison...er, correctional facility. At the very least, they certainly could have chosen to redeem, but the redemption would likely have been for selfish reasons, i.e. "Enough, enough, I'll redeem, just get me out of here." As I recall, dissonant behavior and Discord in demons are not good indications that the demon in question is a candidate for redemption. (Unless the Discord is the Selfless Discord, but that's another story entirely.) Take the Calabim -- every Calabite has some Discord (except Calabim of Fate, of course), but that doesn't make them *all* candidates for Redemption. I think one thing you may want to look at is the assumption that the process of redeeming is the same as the process of Falling, only in reverse. This isn't quite true. Redemption is a much, much more difficult process, and in the end requires an Archangel to complete (you still haven't worked that in, by the way). Falling can be done by any angel at pretty much any time. Also, let me point out that not every Outcast angel is a fugitive from Heaven's grace. Archangels can, at times, use outcasting as a means of punishment for erring Servitors. Khalid comes to mind, and David as well. Although this method likely irritates Dominic, they're not *his* Servitors to deal with, and Judgment would likely not interfere in the matter as long as the Superiors in question know what they're doing. Just some thoughts. - -- :) Manny Neps The Demon of Java, Habbalite of Technology "No, no, no, no. It's really quite simple. 'Public static void main( String[] args).' You can remember that, can't you?" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 00:01:30 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Angel of Prisons > Basically, he wants to put a prison in Heaven. Actually Dominic would approve as long as it was built out of Uriel's cathedral...NOW THAT is a place to remove dissonance! Laurence would stare at him along with Khalid... For a long... long... long... long... time. "JIHAD!" then attack Blandine would support it though she would insist she have a say in it and make it in the Marches. > Cherubs and Djinn, for exemple, are given small animals and are > forced to attune themselves to the animal, and are instructed to care > for the creature. Only problem is Djinn won't care about punishment and dissonant cherubs are...well odd. *He's tied up upside down with tape over his mouth* "I declawed him with a spoon so he wouldn't hurt himself." *Djinn* "That meow sounded like Kill me.." *Dissonant Cherub* "I kiled it because it deserved the glory of Jordi's savannahs'...fly away my child" correcting them just may make them ornery. * The cat idea isn't bad but better they learn to give and give in return, perhaps survival situations....difficult to make. > Seraphs and Balseraphs are given books to read and copy, and > are punished should the copy deviate in any way from the original, so > they must truthfully retell the story. While it may work for Seraphim this restoration of truth you better be VERY careful with documents as subjectivity and the like may make this worse. Seraphs for insatnce might say "TOLKIEN IS RUBBISH! BURN THIS HERESAY!" "See the truth of this passage...God commanded them to kill all Gentiles." Balseraphs would be interested in interpreting the passages differently not lying. * Better they are shown the absolutes of right and wrong and the one truthof God's plan Habbalah are forced to use > their resonnances to enduce Emptiness upon one another until they > redeem, and so on...... Dude... You want a bunch of Habbalah INFLICTING emotions on each other? They'll rebel and kill each other. and enough angry and even the most empty will attack you all. * Better they learn the value of objectivity and the controlling of one's passions. Mahanehdan hasn't come up with ways to Rehabilitate > Calabim or Lilim, but he's confident he can find something in time. Make the Calabim run laps? :-) * Either that or use their destructive energies in more productive ways like travelling under supervision to break rocks then carrying them elsewhere * Lilim...obviously not be such self absorbed ****! Counselling is what I really recommend best and work at tethers.. Actually a Tether to Stone that is a prison. Imagine that! Demons would build up dissonance and angels would lose it! - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2079 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.