From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Feb 26 12:43:08 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05266 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:43:07 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id MAA01129 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:46:37 -0600 Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:46:37 -0600 Message-Id: <200102261846.MAA01129@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2080 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, February 26 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2080 In this digest: IN> February 22, 2001 (ML) IN> February 23, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> DeusX -- The Movie! Re: IN> Repertoire of the Corpus of Cacophony Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) IN> The Choir Angels: Humae Re: IN> The Choir Angels: Humae Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> February 23, 2001 (ML) IN> Tsayadim targetting Re: IN> Temporary Substitute for February 21-22, 2001 (ML) IN> Hearts Re: IN> IN: The Angel of Prisons Re: IN> Temporary Substitute for February 21-22, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> Temporary Substitute for February 21-22, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> Temporary Substitute for February 21-22, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> Temporary Substitute for February 21-22, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> What to Cut (was : Improvements for a second edition) Re: IN> Tsayadim targetting Re: IN> What to Cut (was : Improvements for a second edition) Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:18:29 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> February 22, 2001 (ML) Catching up. This one is even pretty straightforward, for a change. :) Moe Washington's Axe This was the axe used to cut down the cherry tree. No, it doesn't matter whether or not Washington ever actually did this: the ethereal civic spirit generated by the legends sported the relic, and it works, so the question is moot. The axe is actually fairly rusty and dull by now, and really isn't suitable for anything except a club, but nobody wants it for its combat qualities. What they want it for is because it's one of those rare artifacts that boost a characteristic. Specifically, it boosts any Will roll to resist believing a lie by the holder's total Forces (and also acts as a Detect Lies/5 Talisman). This includes, most emphatically, the Balseraphic resonance. Should a Balseraph should pick up the relic, he or she will take 1d6 Body Hits per round as the relic attempts to burn through the Liar's hand. One side effect of this relic is that the holder must also make a Will Roll minus his total Forces to tell a lie: the effects last up to one day after the last time the entity last held or possessed the relic. This isn't an issue for Seraphim, of course: in fact, they think that it's wonderful. Another side effect is that any Balseraph will automatically know when the relic is within 10 feet of him or her, and will usually attempt to kill the holder. Washington's Axe is hardly Unbreakable, but every time it gets destroyed, a new one will end up in the ethereal Washington's possession within a week. He apparently takes great joy in then handing it to the next Seraph that he encounters. It's rumored that Dominic himself has been personally given this relic for reassignment, which may explain why George is still around, apparently free to operate without looking over his shoulder for rampaging Malakim. Cost: 12pt. ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 02/19/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:22:01 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> February 23, 2001 (ML) Last one tonight. I still have all sorts of _other_ stuff to try to catch up on (lost two days doing medieval recreation stuff, not to mention actually seeing my girlfriend for a change*). :) Moe *Long distance relationships are not fun. :( Juvenal Habbalite Knight of Deception Angel of Boundaries Corporeal Forces: 2 Strength: 3 Agility: 8 Ethereal Forces: 5 Intelligence: 8 Precision: 12 Celestial Forces: 6 Will: 12 Perception: 12 Word-Forces: 13 Vessel: human male/2 Skills: Chemistry/4, Dodge/3, Fast-Talk/4, Fighting/3, Knowledge (Law/3,Psychology/3), Lying/3, Ranged Weapon/2 (rifle), Tactics/1 Songs: Charm (Celestial/3), Empathy (Ethereal/4), Hysteria/3, Light (Celestial/6), Shields (All/2), Tongues (Corporeal/2, Ethereal/2) Role: None currently: he's trying to build up one, but he hasn’t gotten far yet. Juvenal usually prefers one that's at least level/3, Status 3. Attunements: Habbalah of Factions, Imbroglio, Polarize, Knight of Deception, Angel of Boundaries Angel of Boundaries: Juvenal can look at a boundary dispute and immediately determine every claim and counterclaim involving it, plus which side actually has the best claim. He could care less about who is actually right, but knowing gives him more options. He can also double the duration of his Habbalite of Factions Attunement when it involves a boundary dispute. Finally, Juvenal always knows when he's crossed a corporeal boundary. Rites: Juvenal gets two Essence for initiating a conflict between two people, if it involves a boundary dispute. He also gets one Essence for encouraging one person to kill another over a boundary dispute. Ah, the old days. It was amazing how many fights could get started over a simple piece of rock. Juvenal used to be a Servitor of Stone, but that didn't last long. He had too much trouble dealing with the heated emotions going on over the human proclivity for starting a century-long vendetta over six square feet of land that really didn't belong to anyone. After a while, the Elohite started to think that the ungrateful fools were touched in the head - and, when a Power has gotten to that stage, Falling is almost a formality. Malphas understood the Punisher's sudden revelation that all of this was a test of God's, of course: really, for a damned demon the Prince of Factions is quite unconsciously sensible of the Lord's real plans for humanity. So, humans want to fight over a meaningless symbol, do they? Well, then, the best thing is to encourage that, make them express all the anger and petty hatred that they're keeping imperfectly secret. Whoever wins is obviously less undeserving of the empty honor. It improves the breed (God knows that nothing could make them any worse). Juvenal is actually in recovery, right now: David doesn't particularly like defectors, and this one is most annoying at times. The last bout with Stone's Servitors managed to strip a few Forces from the Habbalite, so Juvenal is trying to hide out and lick his wounds. Unfortunately, he has difficulty keeping his mouth shut - and simply cannot bear to stir the pot, above and beyond the call of duty, wherever he goes. He possibly should have taken up his Prince's suggestion that he stay in Hell for a while, but even a Habbalite isn't insane enough to get involved in the perennial border disputes about where one Principality ends and another begins... ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 02/19/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:31:45 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> DeusX -- The Movie! Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:40:26 -0500 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: IN> DeusX -- The Movie! >For those of you interested in such things (and have >the proper plug-ins and connection speed to handle >it), my heretical In Nomine PBeM campaign, "Deus Ex >Machina," has a new Flash intro >< http://www.godmachine.org/backstory.swf > >This is version 1.0, so there are some things I need >to polish up, but I would appreciate any comments >and suggestions that you may have (private e-mailings >might be best, unless people want to discuss >something openly on the list). OK, I probably will - later - but I just wanted to say now for the record that DAMN, but that was cool. :) >Maybe next month (with Moe's permission, of course), >I'll do one for Tattered Let me think Good God, yes. :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 02/19/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:38:48 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Repertoire of the Corpus of Cacophony Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:42:23 -0500 From: "Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki" Subject: IN> Repertoire of the Corpus of Cacophony (part 1) I've been meaning to mention that I thought this idea to be Way Nifty (and not just because Oops got a mention). One thing I've been meaning to ask, though, is whether or not humans can (very occasionally) jump from one Symphony to the other. I bring it up because, thanks to GURPS IN, _somebody_ will want to try it, and have the right advantages to do so... :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 02/19/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:07 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) > Project SHIVA > > This secret governmental group is a notable example of > why Dominic allows Asmodeus to conduct Renegade hunts > without real interference. Simply put, it's a cult of > genocidal nihilists - and the brainchild of a Renegade > of Death and a Renegade of Infernal Fire. Perfect for my purposes: This Has Already Happened, and fills in the background for a PC who had been doing this sort of thing, but is now aiming for a quieter life for a while. - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 00:42:32 +1300 From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: IN> The Choir Angels: Humae Humae Choir Angel Mercurian Angel of Interaction Corporeal: 3 6/6 Ethereal: 6 12/12 Celestial: 6 12/12 Vessels: Many, many, many. One for each ethnic group, one for each sterotypical minority (gay, skinhead etc). His "main" vessel is a Human Male aged late 40's with Charisma +2(calm voice). Roles: Just the one. Alexander Lipton/6, Socialite/5 Skills: Savoir Faire/6, Fast Talk/6, Detect Lies/3. Lying/6, Dancing(ballroom)/6, Singing(classic)/6, Fighting/2, Languages(English/3*), Knowledge(classical history)/3 *(see attunement The Bard) Songs: Tongues(all/6), Charm(all/3), Harmony(eth/4), Emotion(eth/3) Attunements: All Mercurian Choir Attunements, All Servitor Attunements of Eli and Marc, Synchronicity, The Angel of Interaction, The Bard, Nice Guy, Choir Angel. The Angel of Interaction: Humae can automatically use his Resonance with a CD of his choice. This includes all advanced usages of it. This Resonance cannot be blocked by any means possible including that of a Superior. If a Superior concentrates on foiling Humae he can. Choir Angel: As with the other 7, Humae is connected to all members of his Choir like a Cherub. With a Perception roll he can divine the location and status of any Mercurian within the Symphony. If a Mercurian is about to violate his Choir dissonance restriction then Humae will know about it immediately. The Bard: This gifts Humae with all Songs of Tounges at Level/6 and allows him to use them for no Essence cost. He still has to roll for the CD and Intervention. This attunement alters the Corporeal Song slightly. Humae becomes fully aware of the Language and gains the Language skill at 6 for the Duration of the Song. This means he can read and write the language as well as speak it. Nice Guy: All reaction rolls made towards Humae automatically get a bonus of +6 to the target number. In normal cases this gives him auto success with +1 to the CD. This radiates in an Aura around him. Treat this as the Aura Discord at level/3. However, all people within the 5ft radius also get the +6 bonus to reaction rolls. Distinctions: Choir Angel Discord: Aura/3 Dissonance: None. History: Humae is the second to last Choir Angel. He is the nicest guy you will ever meet, but not to the point of being annoying. He is a Mercurian's Mercurian. Everyone likes him, not because of his fancy Attunements,(he says he doesn't need them), or because he is a Choir Angel, but because he works damn hard to make sure people are comfortable. That is the essence of Interaction according to Humae. He puts people at ease with themselves and the situation. Humae frequently looks back over the trails of Michael and Gabriel (to which he was not invited) and shakes his head at the outcome. He likes Dominic, he respects and honors the job that he has to do. He just doesn't like the way other people see him. It is hard to put someone at ease when all they want to do is burn the eyes of the Dominic Beanie with a cigarette. He can see it coming with Eli. He knows exactly where Eli is at all times but rarely does anything about it. He may be the Choir Angel of Mercurians, but he is no Archangel. Eli is a total mystery to him much to the disgust of the aforementioned Dominic. Dominic would like to just have Humae point out where Eli is constantly, but the thing is, as soon as a capture sqaud arrives, Eli would be gone. Humae is far to important to be a homing beacon for Eli. Humae offered to do some jobs in Heaven before he discoved his plethora of Vessels and went to Earth. He served as a go between for some Heavenly factions for a while. War/Judgement, Animals/Lighting and so on. It was rare when those Archangels had something to say to one another, but when they did, there was no person better for the job than Humae. Or Fugit... Humae isn't the fastest runner and was more than one time that he had to talk his way out of the Savannah. He now has settled in London Central. The City that is thriving with challenges and with different Interactions on a daily basis. He takes up his Role as Alexander Lipton only when there is a upper class party to attend that is cruical that it goes well. Whenever Alexander comes in, everyone knows that the evening will be pleasent and civil. Other times he just pops Celestial and uses Synchronicity to jet anywhere in the area. With his choice of Vessels it doesn't matter where he pops up, he can be anyone, anywhere at any time. Humae has the problem with being too nice, and that has manifested into the blessing/curse of the Nice Guy Attunement. To be that damn good at your job screams Celestial to some other Celestials.... now it just screams Celestial to any Celestial with a decent Perception. This hasn't caused him problems, most Demons try and slip him up in a social situation. This of course never ever works and the Demons end up looking daft.. then dead. Humae has never raised his hand in anger against another Celestial ever. His Fighting comes as repayment for some work in the Groves for Michael. He does however, have a HUGE network of friends to call on. Those that can "get a job done". - -Alex _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:14:27 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> The Choir Angels: Humae >He takes up >his Role as Alexander Lipton only when there is a upper class party to >attend that is cruical that it goes well. Whenever Alexander comes in, >everyone knows that the evening will be pleasent and civil. Nice. But actually, the benchmark to whether a party goes well isn't whether it's civil, but whether people are still talking about it wistfully in 10 years time . . . jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 07:23:38 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Lane" To: Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 10:52 PM Subject: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) Admittedly, I"m no expert, but... [snip] > Unfortunately, this sort of job is fairly rough on the > average person's long-term sanity. Actually, it ain't. As I understand it, it's a quirk of human psychology that so long as you're just talking in *theoretical* terms, you can discuss damn near anything without it worrying you much. Lord knows that I"ve spent hours and hours planning, in detail, many things that I would never even consider actually doing. (And that was just to pass the time around the kitchen table.) Contingency planning such as what you're describing is part of the job of any staff officer. My older brother knows some of the team who were helpign to refine the theoretical plans on the most efficient way to blow up Yugoslavia... as a first lieutenant. Yet they're even more normal than I am. (I *am* a "detail-oriented geek", as I mention below -- they're weren't.) Now finding the guys to actually turn the keys in the silos, now *that's* a job you need to carefully select the people for... but that's not what we're discussing here. And they're not selected for sociopathy either... they're selected for rigid thought habits and a profound lack of imagination. Don't think about what happens when you turn the key -- just turn the key when you're told to. DON'T THINK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS NEXT. Even the guys who do the job in the military that comes closer to cold-blooded murder than anything else -- sniper work -- aren't selected for sociopathy. They don't need to be. It's a sad fact that it really isn't that hard to train normal people to kill other people... all you have to do is give them the assurance that their society considers it "OK" for them to do so in these circumstances, and combine it with a little Pavlovian conditioning. > Trying to find people who wouldn't crack on the strain was > difficult, On the contrary, you can find such people around any gaming table. Moe, think back to the amount of man-hours you and your friends have spent around the table, theoretically planning the best way to destroy worlds... for *amusement*. In my experience, otherwise perfectly well-adjusted people will spend hours around the table planning the best way to *theoretically* blow up anything. Which says something about human nature, I guess. > but eventually the government was able to refine their > selection procedure. They were looking for > well-adjusted sociopaths, frankly, Again, while for game purposes you can assume anything you like, IRL they much prefer that "well-adjusted sociopaths" are kept the heck *out* of the military at all levels, for obvious reasons. The military doesn't even like such people as infantry grunts -- sociopaths, by definition, are incapable of either loyalty and/or integrity, and both of those categories are considered to be more important even than aggressiveness. And while they can't afford to give in-depth psych screening to every entrant, the type of high-level nuclear contingency planning you're talking about requires *above* Top Secret security clearance, and they tend to run such people through the microscope. Plus, the ideal staff officer for such a situation as you describe wouldn't be a well-adjusted sociopath, he'd be a mild obsessive-compulsive. IOW, a detail-oriented geek. But an OK guy otherwise. > and they succeeded > beyond their wildest dreams: one of their analysts > turned out to be Gregory, Renegade Balseraph of Fire. In addition to the objections above, some other questions -- such as how the [bleep] did a Renegade get the Role/6 together that it would take to *pass* the security check? Hint -- when they're doing the background checks for *this* level of Top Secret, they don't just pull records, they do background interviews... for at *least* the past 15 years of your life. Sometimes, they go all the way back to high school. Or *grade* school. There already exists in mortal terms the danger of somebody who has a birth certificate and whose papers all check out perfectly, but who doesn't actually have any of the neighbors and teachers in his alleged hometown and alleged educational history actually remembering that he was there -- sleeper agents. And given that this guy is supposed to be working on the War Plans, that means he's been through the security classification mill at least *three times* -- a basic Top Secret investigation when his Role first entered the service in officer training (ROTC or one of the mlitary academies), again at the 'microscope' level when first cleared for Top Secret duties, and then the 'electron microscope' level when he's brought into the strategic nuclear stuff. Unless Gregory has literally been in alive and interacting (not just a paper trail) in this Role all the way back to his birth certificate, there should be no way that he could pass this security check -- as the lack of all the people actually remembering his presence + perfect paper background should equal "Sleeper agent!" in any security person's mind. (There is a reason that all of the espionage cases you hear about at this level are people who were genuinely born here later deciding to sell out. Comrade Spy with his perfect American accent, perfectly forged school transcripts, and the birth certificate of some US citizen who actually died in infancy has no measurable chance of surviving the screening.) PS -- Balseraphic resonance can't explain his passing the check either -- the interviews aren't just with you, but with everybody you listed as a reference *and some people who you didn't list*. And they're not held with you present, either. Plus, there's simply too many people on the investigative team... the senior members of which you never meet. The people who sit on the board that actually makes the decisions don't do the interviews with you, they simply take reports from the people who do. PPS -- All of the above is based on my worms'-eye view of the process as a junior enlisted nuclear tech, with brief comments from the junior officer level from my older brother. If any of you turns out to be one of the people who actually does these checks, feel free to correct me. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 07:52:16 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) Charles Glasgow wrote: > It's a sad fact that it really isn't > that hard to train normal people to kill other people... all you have to do > is give them the assurance that their society considers it "OK" for them to > do so in these circumstances, and combine it with a little Pavlovian > conditioning. Actually, there's increasing evidence that humans _are_ naturally reluctant to kill other human beings. Recall that during World War I and II and Korea, the Army found that a huge percentage of soldiers wouldn't actually aim at enemy soldiers when firing, because they couldn't overcome their aversion to killing -- even while under fire themselves. Training methods had improved significantly by Vietnam -- the societal reassurance and Pavlovian conditioning you mention -- and it was the fact that when they came home, they found out that their society did NOT consider it "OK" that drove so many Vietnam vets into mental turmoil. Your comments about the security screening are correct; it would be hard for someone without a very high-level Role to receive a Top Secret clearance. (Yet another way to encourage players to buy up their Role levels -- if they ever get seriously investigated, low-level Roles will start manifesting "gaps"...) However, nowadays the background checks have been "streamlined" (a big mistake, IMO), so I suspect a celestial with a LOT of ingenuity and a little help from his friends _might_ be able to pull it off. It wouldn't be easy, though. - -David (yes, I had a TS clearance, yes, they actually interviewed my friends and neighbors) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:41:03 +0000 From: Pak Chan Subject: Re: IN> February 23, 2001 (ML) At 22:22 25/02/2001 -0800, Maurice Lane wrote: >Juvenal >Habbalite Knight of Deception >Angel of Boundaries Nice idea...very Nobilis in concept! >Angel of Boundaries: Juvenal can look at a boundary >dispute and immediately determine every claim and >counterclaim involving it, plus which side actually >has the best claim. He could care less about who is >actually right, but knowing gives him more options. >He can also double the duration of his Habbalite of >Factions Attunement when it involves a boundary >dispute. Finally, Juvenal always knows when he's >crossed a corporeal boundary. What counts as a corporeal boundary? Are we talking walls, or national boundaries? What about the legal boundary defining a city's boundaries? The boundaries of a property? Boundaries imposed by parents on their children? What if the boundary is defined by two or more entities? For example, in the last example above, the children are likely to interpret the boundaries differently from their parents. Similarly, borders may be disputed between two countries, where there is no higher authority that can hand down a definition of the border, leading to two equally-valid definitions. Pak ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:41:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Tsayadim targetting William J. Keith wrote, describing the ethereal Faithful Dog: > * Selfless (Slave Mentality?) -- tends to jump into a dreamscape > and defend the dreamer when he sees one in danger. (Demons count.) > Angels mostly appreciate this (and hence Jordi's told the Tsayadim > Hands Off or There Will Be Repercussions) Do the Tsayadium go after any and all Ethereals, or just those making pretensions of divinity? The Faithful Dog hardly falls in that category. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:44:13 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Temporary Substitute for February 21-22, 2001 (ML) Manny Nepomuceno wrote: > > It's not certain who first discovered this song, although it is > fairly certain that it was in the repertoire of the late ethereal > named Shiva (the current ethereal spirit of the same name is but a > pale shadow of the original, and does not have access to this song). What killed Shiva? It wasn't the Purity Crusade; in canon, at least, it never touched the Hindu pantheon and Heaven has essentially ignored that pnatheon since forever. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:59:06 +0200 (EET) From: Mervi Hamalainen Subject: IN> Hearts Can Archangels make Hearts to demons? In this case it's Michael and a Renegade Calabite of Belial. Can Demonprinces make Hearts to angels? (Just something to scare angelic PCs with:)). Mervi ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:02:46 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> IN: The Angel of Prisons It would be interesting to take Mahanehdan and put him up next to the concept of Purgatory. Purgatory is, after all, the place you go to be purged, and is already a lot like the prison he wants to found. There are two differences: 1) It's always described as for humans. But that's what humans *would* say, anyway. Or maybe Mahanehdan would be advocating putting celestials through Purgatory, too. That might not sound as shocking as inventing a prison in heaven. 2) In Dante, at least, the souls in Purgatory are there quite willingly, more like people in a rehab center than like prisoners. Of course, there are lots of other pictures of Purgatory that aren't so positive. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:37:03 +0800 From: Manny Nepomuceno Subject: Re: IN> Temporary Substitute for February 21-22, 2001 (ML) *grin* I just reread my GMG and realized this as well. Ooops. :) Let me think about this one. I'm sure there's a tale in this somewhere... :) Manny Neps > What killed Shiva? It wasn't the Purity Crusade; in canon, at least, > it never touched the Hindu pantheon and Heaven has essentially > ignored that pnatheon since forever. > > Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:57:35 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Temporary Substitute for February 21-22, 2001 (ML) At 11:37 PM +0800 2/27/01, Manny Nepomuceno wrote: > > What killed Shiva? It wasn't the Purity Crusade; in canon, at least, >> it never touched the Hindu pantheon and Heaven has essentially > > ignored that pnatheon since forever. > >*grin* > >I just reread my GMG and realized this as well. Ooops. :) > >Let me think about this one. I'm sure there's a tale in this somewhere... If it were me.... (ah, the four words of doom!) I'd actually have Shiva be killed by one of the more destructive Demon Princes -- perhaps in an attempt to frame Heaven and push a deeper wedge between them (to try and force the Hindu gods to accept Hell as their patron in self defense) or perhaps just because Belial didn't like the competition. I like the idea that Angels aren't the only ones who kill Ethereals -- especially when the Ethereals aren't doing much to help Hell.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:05:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Temporary Substitute for February 21-22, 2001 (ML) Whistling in the Dark wrote: > I'd actually have Shiva be killed by one of the more destructive > Demon Princes It might add to the Prince's motivation that (1) Shiva is renowned in Hindu mythology as a demon-basher himself and (2) Shiva is god of renewal as well as destruction, something dangerously close to Redemption. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:05:52 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Temporary Substitute for February 21-22, 2001 (ML) >From: Whistling in the Dark >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >CC: Manny Nepomuceno >Subject: Re: IN> Temporary Substitute for February 21-22, 2001 (ML) >Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:57:35 -0500 > >At 11:37 PM +0800 2/27/01, Manny Nepomuceno wrote: >> > What killed Shiva? It wasn't the Purity Crusade; in canon, at least, >>> it never touched the Hindu pantheon and Heaven has essentially >> > ignored that pnatheon since forever. >> >>*grin* >> >>I just reread my GMG and realized this as well. Ooops. :) >> >>Let me think about this one. I'm sure there's a tale in this somewhere... > >If it were me.... (ah, the four words of doom!) > >I'd actually have Shiva be killed by one of the more destructive >Demon Princes -- perhaps in an attempt to frame Heaven and push a >deeper wedge between them (to try and force the Hindu gods to accept >Hell as their patron in self defense) or perhaps just because Belial >didn't like the competition. I would be tempted to say that although hordes of Uriel's faithful Malakim fell upon the warrior god, Shiva did not die. A body was certainly there, and it looked to have several arms, many of which were wielding flashing blades ... but it wasn't the god himself. After all, what's the point of being a powerful ethereal entity if you can't pull a few quick sleights of hand. And then again, when did Laurence start to show that prowess with the sword, the blade that flashed so quickly that he might almost have looked to have several arms in constant motion ...? jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:30:23 -0500 From: "Jason F. McBrayer" Subject: Re: IN> What to Cut (was : Improvements for a second edition) WARNING WARNING WARNING A lot of what I write below could be construed as flameage. Reading back over it, it seems pretty hostile in places, in fact. Gentle readers (Perry Lloyd in particular), please do not take offense -- it's just a game, and we just have different opinions. WARNING WARNING WARNING On Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 03:24:08AM +0000, Perry Lloyd wrote: > The ethereals and the Ethereal realm descrpitions (as well as Blandine and > Beleth) can _certainly_ be removed and placed in a supplement to be covered > much better in clearer detail. EEEEaaaarrrgh NO! _You_ may not like having servitors of Dreams and Nightmares in your games, but my players certainly do, and the Marches are a huge part of the setting. In my Demonic campaign, two of the (four) PCs are demons of Nightmares (one could have been recast as a Fate servitor, but Nightmares works a little better). The Marches have been pretty important in Fiat Justitia, too, even in places where the real action is on the Corporal -- there's no way to get inside a mortal's head like getting inside their dreamscape. > The descriptions of Heaven and Hell _are_not_necessary_, either. A > supplement could cover them more in depth, perhaps. If the GM *really* > wants to run a game in Heaven and Hell, she can buy the supplement or "make > stuff up." I think what's currently in the core book is about enough, but you'd be hard pressed to cut much. You need a certain amount of minimum description just to deal with PCs traveling by Tether and such. > And, although they're *really* neat, the band/choir attunements take > up a lot of space. Why not do what the original game does? Have > upwards of 216 powers to choose from (they're like "songs" and > "attunements" but without the different nature) and each superior > can grant each choir/band one for free, then have his own "distinct" > power. The current system of Songs and Attunements is flavourful. If you want Champions, you know where to find it. > > PC: "I want to turn into mist." > GM: "You can't; only Demons of Theft can." > PC: "Oh. Can I have photographic memory?" > GM: "Nope, only Angels of Jean can." > PC: "Oh. Can I have Danger Sense?" > GM: "Do you serve War? No." > PC: If you want GURPS, you know where to find it (and you're already playing GURPS IN, so I don't see how this is a problem). A lot of the flavour of IN /comes from/ having limited options based on your character type. IN Celestials aren't humans. They can't have Disadvantages unless they're Discordant. They can't have Advantages except as Attunements from a Superior. I know that's not part of INS/MV, but IN is not INS/MV. If you want your character to have an Attunement from another Superior, make a deal with the GM and /write backstory explaining it/! This way, you get a character that doesn't seem like it was built using the menu at a Chinese restaurant, but one that's embedded in the politics of Heaven or Hell and has some actual history to it. A lot of your other comments seem to be complaints that IN is not INS/MV. That's legitimate; INS/MV is a good game. But so is IN; they're just completely different games by this point. If you wanted, it would be very easy for you to play GURPS INS/MV. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@carcosa.net | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:42:55 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Tsayadim targetting Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Do the Tsayadium go after any and all Ethereals, or just those > making pretensions of divinity? The Faithful Dog hardly falls > in that category. Mostly they concentrate on "bad" ethereals, but they consider no ethereal off-limits. And they couldn't care less what Jordi says, either. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:50:15 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> What to Cut (was : Improvements for a second edition) "Jason F. McBrayer" wrote: > If you want GURPS, you know where to find it (and you're already > playing GURPS IN, so I don't see how this is a problem). A lot of the > flavour of IN /comes from/ having limited options based on your > character type. IN Celestials aren't humans. They can't have > Disadvantages unless they're Discordant. They can't have Advantages > except as Attunements from a Superior. I know that's not part of > INS/MV, but IN is not INS/MV. I tend to agree. Complaints that characters can't pick any ability they want...well, this isn't Champions or GURPS. IN is essentially a class system, with all of a class system's advantages and flaws. Advantages being that you can arbitrarily give whatever powers you want to a particular character type without worrying about "balance" or point totals, disadvantages being that you're stuck within the limitations of that character type. Angels and demons being traditionally hierarchical beings, a class system makes sense for them. If your players are complaining because only Demons of Theft can turn into mist and only angels of War can have Danger Sense, what they want is a game where they can custom-design their own superbeings and slap the label "angel" or "demon" on them. Champions is great for that. But it's not IN. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:09:06 -0500 From: "Jason F. McBrayer" Subject: Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 07:23:38AM -0600, Charles Glasgow wrote: > Hint -- when they're doing the background checks for *this* level of > Top Secret, they don't just pull records, they do background > interviews... for at *least* the past 15 years of your life. > Sometimes, they go all the way back to high school. Or *grade* > school. Okay, but a Renegade with the Corporeal form of the Song of Entropy will be able to very straightforwardly construct itself a Role that will hold up to investigations going back to grade school, assuming it's willing to spend 20 or 40 or 80 years doing it: it can just use the Song to de-age its Vessel to infant or toddler, drop itself off at an orphanage, and live out a mortal life. > There already exists in mortal terms the danger of somebody who has > a birth certificate and whose papers all check out perfectly, but > who doesn't actually have any of the neighbors and teachers in his > alleged hometown and alleged educational history actually > remembering that he was there -- sleeper agents. Yes, the trick is to actually have been there. With a Superior-granted Role/6, everyone will remember you, too (whether this is through some kind of Symphonic manipulation or through having the Role lived out by a reliever or demonling until you needed it), but there's at least one way for a Renegade/Outcast to manage it. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@carcosa.net | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:40:29 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) - --On Monday, February 26, 2001 1:09 PM -0500 "Jason F. McBrayer" wrote: > Yes, the trick is to actually have been there. With a > Superior-granted Role/6, everyone will remember you, too (whether > this is through some kind of Symphonic manipulation or through > having the Role lived out by a reliever or demonling until you > needed it), but there's at least one way for a Renegade/Outcast to > manage it. Yes, but that way tends to be Symphonically "noisy". And you get gooky stuff everywhere. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2080 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.