From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Feb 27 07:32:53 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA27894 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:32:53 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id HAA13695 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:36:52 -0600 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:36:52 -0600 Message-Id: <200102271336.HAA13695@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2082 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, February 27 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2082 In this digest: Re: IN> What to Cut (was : Improvements for a second edition) Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN (was : What to Cut) IN> Demonic Roles Re: Fwd: Re: IN> What to Cut (was : Improvements for a second e Re: IN> Repertoire of the Corpus of Cacophony IN> IN/MS Re: IN> Demonic Roles Re: IN> Nicole (was second edition) IN> The Balseraph Resonance Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> The Balseraph Resonance Re: IN> Temporary Substitute for February 21-22, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN (was : What to Cut) Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN (was : What to Cut) Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN (was : What to Cut) Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) IN> Roles (Re: February 21, 2001 (ML)) Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> Demonic Roles Re: IN> The Balseraph Resonance IN> Roles Again (Re: February 21, 2001 (ML)) Fwd: Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> Action Figures?! Roles (Was Re: IN>February 21, 2001 (ML)) Re: IN> What to Cut (was : Improvements for a second edition) Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN (was : What to Cut) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 02:46:13 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> What to Cut (was : Improvements for a second edition) >Just to clarify a couple of points: > > >> PC: "I want to turn into mist." > >> GM: "You can't; only Demons of Theft can." > >or Angels of the Wind, or any Kyriotate or Shedite, assuming they're >willing to pay the points for it. ;^) Too true. I did miss that. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 02:58:17 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN (was : What to Cut) >From: Emily Dresner-Thornber > > Of course, the irony is that, overall, IN is probably a much better >game. > > It's the principle of the thing that gets to me. > >Actually, to be frankly honest, what I've seen and translated >myself of INS/MV, it is a much better, or at least _funnier_, >game. It has a certain amount of punch and style, much like Over >the Edge or HoL. I was never clear on the mechanics -- but I'm >never clear on mechanics of games I _write_, let alone run -- but >the flavor material and the characters were just wonderful. The >Superiors are very vivid, and they drip with wackiness. We >even learn from INS/MV that demons of Fate play Rolemaster. > >Side by side, there is almost no comparison. Unlike IN, INS/MV >has a definite satirical tone to the game. It's mean and >vicious. And funny. And it has additude. That's funny, weren't there, like, comments that In Nomine lacked this sort of thing? Uhhhh, for lack of a better word : personality? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:23:50 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Demonic Roles Creating roles is a bit of a difficult problem and while someone has suggested having relievers or gremlins "grow up" on Earth to do the matter they're are some alternative options for the unpleasantly inclined.... Such as "Pulling a Laurence" (Referring to his Kyriorite attunement) Example.... General Bragg for instance is a nasty scumbag who has for most of his life been an unpleasant so and so with a heavy drinking problem and a desire to frankly kill every scumbag in the world who ticks him off. He's militant, crude, mysongistic, and otherwise unpleasant. In truth he's had his fate fufilled ever since the Gulf War when he did . Okay Baal has his eyes on some sensetive security positions in the Pentagon but needs a role to get someone into the work so he can manipulate things a bit more directly. General Bragg is observed thus for a few weeks by a Shedim of Baal and his memories are sifted through then a Fate servitor to make sure the man is full of his Fate. Confirmed Baal has one of his Lilim "Invite the man upstairs" where she and him get very close and she basically stuffs a pillow down his throat before gutting him like a fish. Baal is summoned in the tether and once there looks over the matter and looks toward his Balseraph who he's got for the position and crafts for him a vessel looking exactly like General Bragg with his 'dossier' on his behavior already prepared to help the man work out. General Bragg in Hell will of course be interrogated for further information if necessary and if the work is unpleasant/important enough then the man will have his ethereal forces grafted onto the Balseraph for the duration of the emergency. By next morning a Role 6/ Demon has been inserted into a High Planning Pentagon meeting for Baal's work. This of course is if you REALLLLY need a good role. Other methods are a bit more simpler. Take for instance a servitor of Beleth living in the Blair Witch Woods, he's getting some buddies to help him in the area. A Calabim of Valefor and a Impudite of Lust. The guy has himself a role that he's built up by making up a fake name and the rest of things before moving into town and generally insinuating himself as the local "nice guy" who heads Boy Scout troops telling scary stories and let's people in free to horror movies. (role 3/) Checking the above's servitors and needs he decides to take a large brawler of the area and Mary Lou whose a cheerleader and a Catholic schoolgirl graduate into the woods and butcher them both. He does so and the Brawler and Mary Lou are killed horribly by the Frightener. The respective superiors then construct vessels in their image and give them to the Servitor of Valefor (who wanted something smaller and more likeable) and thus stops being such a pounder bully but more of a nice guy and mooch oddly and Mary Lou quite simply becomes a slut within a few days of her indoctrinication. Both have roles 4-5 in the community because they have inconsistancies in their mind despite having social security numbers, parents, etc. Another idea which is GREAT in the short term but the most FANTASTICALLY *BAD* idea one can have in the long term is to kill and angel and take HIS ROLE.... unless soul killed something is going to happen soon and I piddy da fool who takes a vessel similar to one of Dominic's brood. "Angel Panders?" "Yes...sir?" "Your lying." - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 01 21:31:39 -0600 From: Alec Fleschner Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: IN> What to Cut (was : Improvements for a second e >> >> The whole Destiny/Fate thing takes things a bit out of proportion for >>me. I >> >> mean, if one's fate and destiny determine whether or not people go to >>heaven >> >> or hell, shouldn't Lucifer have "all" demons serve Fate? >> > >> >First of all, if all demons serve Fate, and Fate serves Lucifer, then >> >why not cut out the middle man, get rid of Kronos, and have all demons >> >serve Lucifer? It's all about playing the patsies against one another. I've always seen it as such: Lucifer is trying his best to bring down Heaven. To do such, he is putting a lot of trust and power into individuals who have, by definition, proven they're not trustworthy. They're demons, and they're looking out for number one. To them, Lucifer is just the last block between them and ultimate power. So Lucifer is surrounded by powerful entities all of who are waiting to hug him just so they can stick a knife in his back. His solution? Take the focus off of him. You just foster a few jealousies and rivalries between superiors, add in a couple superiors who's job it is to help you (Malphas, in particular, is a great example of someone who grew in power just becasue it furthered Lucifer's goals in this method) and he can sit back and focus on his goal on winning the War while not having to spend quite as much time watching for glints of metal and cackles of maniacal laughter in the darkness. I'm certain Kronos would see it differently, as would most of the other superiors. But that's part of Lucifer's plan, too. It's far easier to lead people when they thing they're the one with all the power. Let them think they're in charge, because in the end, the one with the power wins, and the delusional ones realize who was getting played. Of course, with Lucifer being a balseraph, Heaven may be betting that Lucifer is a bit delusional himself.... Alec Fleschner ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:37:06 -0500 From: "Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Repertoire of the Corpus of Cacophony > I've been meaning to mention that I thought this idea > to be Way Nifty (and not just because Oops got a > mention). One thing I've been meaning to ask, though, > is whether or not humans can (very occasionally) jump > from one Symphony to the other. I bring it up > because, thanks to GURPS IN, _somebody_ will want to > try it, and have the right advantages to do so... Well, if they are a Soldier of Adad or Syth, they can get an attunement that lets them world-jump. Also note the reference to devices that allow one to do the same thing... A good use of the Gadgeteer advantage, I think. ;) So, in short, yes. It would still cause a Disturbance. -Loki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:06:10 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> IN/MS Okay that's it I can't stand it anymore.. WHAT ARE THESE DIFFERENCES I KEEP HEARING ABOUT? Come on out with them... Blandine I know sleeps with alot of her servitors both male and female... Over 100 superiors... laurence is a fanboy.... what else is different in the two games? - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:04:56 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Roles - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Phipps" To: Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:23 PM Subject: IN> Demonic Roles [snip] > General Bragg for instance is a nasty scumbag who has for most of his life > been an unpleasant so and so with a heavy drinking problem and a desire to > frankly kill every scumbag in the world who ticks him off. *sigh* How often have I seen this caricature in fiction? [insert standard military anti-stereotype complaint here] This isn't to say that all general officers are saints, or even pleasant people to know -- 'cause they ain't -- but they still enjoy a good measure of success at weeding out the *drastically* obvious malfunction cases. And a "heavy drinking problem" qualifies. (Between the general's aide, his orderly, etc, etc., general officers have no privacy when on deployment. Did this guy spend his entire alcoholism period stationed in the States? There, at least, he can go home after work and pass out on his living room floor, and if his wife doesn't mind enough to tell anybody then he might get away with it -- provided that nobody at work notices the symptoms. And don't even think about switching over to drugs -- even general officers have to take unscheduled whiz quizzes, just like the rest of us.) Never forget also that a personality this thoroughly unpleasant tends to engender very little love or loyalty in his subordinates -- which is another reason why the Inspector General's office really ought to have gotten him for his various misdeeds before this, because nobody under him will be willing to stick their neck out covering up for anything he's done! AAMOF, if your boss is truly such a thoroughgoing pain in the butt, then turning him in is the easiest way to get *rid* of him. And according to what they told us at least, the IG's office investigates *every* single complaint about a general officer, even the anonymous ones. Or at least that was the case in '91, God alone knows what it's been like after eight years of A Certain Ex-President's political appointees running the show. > He's militant, crude, mysongistic, and otherwise unpleasant. In truth he's had > his fate fufilled ever since the Gulf War when he did unpleasant to civilian Iraquis>. Goodness, where on Earth would he have found the time? Admittedly, the Desert Shield forces spent months and months sitting in the sand before Desert Storm kicked off, but they didn't see any civilian Iraqis while they were doing it. OTOH, if you want to insert something that *does* work here, insert "cheapened the image of the whole military by getting caught in a really tawdry sexual harassment case". It's not much of a Fate, but they don't have to all be world-enders. And that, at least, is straight from the real newspapers, sadly enough. (Like I said, they ain't all saints. It's just that the guy has to be capable of acting at least *mostly* normal, and genuine alcoholics tend to have problems with that. Likewise, an officer with an utterly poisonous and objectionable personality is somebody whose career tends to end at colonel -- if he even gets that high -- because there's a lot more officers who want to be generals than they actually have slots for generals. This tends to lead to a bit of selectivity.) > Okay Baal has his eyes on some sensetive security positions in the Pentagon > but needs a role to get someone into the work so he can manipulate things a > bit more directly. > > General Bragg is observed thus for a few weeks by a Shedim of Baal and his > memories are sifted through then a Fate servitor to make sure the man is > full of his Fate. Confirmed Baal has one of his Lilim "Invite the man > upstairs" where she and him get very close and she basically stuffs a pillow > down his throat before gutting him like a fish. > > Baal is summoned in the tether and once there looks over the matter and > looks toward his Balseraph who he's got for the position and crafts for him > a vessel looking exactly like General Bragg with his 'dossier' on his > behavior already prepared to help the man work out. One slight problem -- virtually no general officers are unmarried and/or without kids. And even *with* memory dumps and Balseraphic resonances, there's no impersonator alive good enough to live with a man's family for years on end without somebody noticing something. There's simply too many shared experiences. [snip] > By next morning a Role 6/ Demon has been inserted into a High Planning > Pentagon meeting for Baal's work. > > This of course is if you REALLLLY need a good role. > > Other methods are a bit more simpler. Such as simply copying what mortal intelligence agencies do -- take somebody who already has a security clearance and recruit him as an agent, with his demonic 'case officer' being somebody who needs no security clearance and never actually goes near the Big White Buildings in Washington DC or Langley. If the KGB can do it (Special Agent Hanssen, anybody? Aldrich Ames? Mr. Walker?), then people with access to Lilim, Balseraphs, various attunements and Songs, etc, etc, should be *much* more successful at spotting the already bad apples and getting them to fork over. And the beauty of it is, since the people you're using are real humans who really work there, and the demons go nowhere near the actual data, Laurence and Dominic could park spotters on every corner in every hallway and never hear a thing. This works a *lot* better than screwing around with Roles in such heavily monitored places, I'm sure. [snip] > Another idea which is GREAT in the short term but the most FANTASTICALLY > *BAD* idea one can have in the long term is to kill and angel and take HIS > ROLE.... This only works until the angel in question gets out of Trauma. Which can, as far as the demon knows, be as soon as "tomorrow". Or if he got *really* unlucky and hit a Malakite, "immediately". - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 00:27:23 -0500 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> Nicole (was second edition) ><supplement. > >Whether forcibly restraining your attuned is screamingly dissonant for a >Cherub is a matter of GM interpretation...I suppose. But guess which >interpretation I favor.>> > >Replying to myself to clarify that I mean "forcibly restrain" as in "tie up >so that she doesn't go anywhere where she might be in danger," not "hold so >that your five-year-old attuned doesn't run into traffic." The first one >would be dissonant (at least imho), the second would not. Well, as I understood it she was a triffle "into it" (I'll let the Andrealphites spell it out further than that :)), so maybe that's how he got away with it. I would assume that causing minor pain wouldn't count for actual dissonance (otherwise the Cherub would get screwed up by the attuned stubbing their toe!). Still, I figured he WAS dissonant then, naturally; isn't there a Discord that covers being overprotective of an attuned? - -- Mike Bruner-- bruner@delaware.infi.net "But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the East, and Juliet is AHHH THE SUN!!!" *FOOM* --Vampire theatre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:35:35 -0500 From: "John Walter Biles" Subject: IN> The Balseraph Resonance Pretty simple question. Does a Balseraph have to be lying when he uses his resonance? Could he use it to force people to believe something true they don't want to believe? What if he THINKS he's lying? John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu http://www.dkcomm.net/rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "That all princes shall kiss the foot of the Pope alone."--Dictatus Papae, 11th century ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 01:15:51 -0500 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) >> > Yes, the trick is to actually have been there. With a >> > Superior-granted Role/6, everyone will remember you, too (whether >> > this is through some kind of Symphonic manipulation or through >> > having the Role lived out by a reliever or demonling until you >> > needed it), but there's at least one way for a Renegade/Outcast to >> > manage it. >> >> Yes, but that way tends to be Symphonically "noisy". And you get >> gooky stuff everywhere. > >Gooky stuff, I'll grant you. But why is living out a Role from >childhood noisy? You only have to use CorpEntropy a few times a year >at most (maybe more as a small child), and you can refrain from >Essence expenditure the rest of the time. Not very noisy at all. If >you assume that normal high-level Roles are created by having a >reliever or demonling live them out until they're needed, then it's >no different from the normal process of making a Role. Or am I >missing something? BTW, since the question's sort of come up (and I don't have the book describing Roles (Liber Servitorium?)), do Roles always require estensive establishment for the higher levels like having a reliever/demonling live a childhood? I'm thinking of types of Roles where a normal human like that could be expected to have gaps, like maybe a Kyrio of Lightning having a Role as a hacker who's never been seen in person (and could be expected to possibly cover their tracks in official records to boot) or some Role involving amnesia or some such. Basically, can one have a Role 5/6 without having certain periods of the life accounted for if such a thing makes sense for the Role in question? Obviously that won't work for the Role the original message contemplated with the military (although an non-Renegade demon might be able to sneak in via appropriate manipulation of those doing the background check (if the checkers are Soldiers of Hell, I imagine these little gaps become much easier to plug...)), but I'm wondering if every major Role requires years and years of prep time just to make it availible. - -- Mike Bruner-- bruner@delaware.infi.net "But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the East, and Juliet is AHHH THE SUN!!!" *FOOM* --Vampire theatre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:05:23 -0800 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> The Balseraph Resonance John Walter Biles wrote: > > Pretty simple question. > > Does a Balseraph have to be lying when he uses his resonance? Could he > use it to force people to believe something true they don't want to > believe? What if he THINKS he's lying? As far as I can make out, Balseraphs _never_ think they're lying. They are as incapable of falsehood as Seraphim are, just from a slightly skewed persepective. That being said, I see no reason why something would have to be objectively false for a Liar to believe it, and thus impose its belief on someone else. So my non-canonical, late night ruling (and I'm a player, not a GM, if you need any other reason to doubt my credibility) is yes ^_^ Cheers, Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:16:31 +0800 From: Manny Nepomuceno Subject: Re: IN> Temporary Substitute for February 21-22, 2001 (ML) >> Try this one out for size. >> >> Numinous Corpus: Arms > > Isn't that already in the Liber Canticorum? > *shrug* I can't say for sure, I'm afraid... Trouble with living where I do is that In Nomine books are few and far in between. Pretty much the only reason I've got a collection is that the guy who runs Comic Quest knows I collect In Nomine books...so he reserves me one copy (I think he orders three). No one else in this country carries In Nomine. This arrangement only started with S1, alas... :( :) Manny Neps - -- who will someday, God willing, have a copy of the Liber Canticorum, Liber Castellorum, the CPG, and all those other nifty books people love to mention on this list... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 05:47:10 -0500 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN (was : What to Cut) On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:46:40 -0500 (EST) Emily Dresner-Thornber writes: > > Side by side, there is almost no comparison. Unlike IN, INS/MV > has a definite satirical tone to the game. It's mean and > vicious. And funny. And it has additude. There's always a trade-off. You lose a lot of that biting sarcastic flavor, but you gain the fact that IN can be played in about eleventy-billion different ways. That said, it'd be cool to see SJG publish the main INS/MV books in English, or perhaps a "INS/MV" setting book that would allow one to adapt In Nomine mechanics to the INS/MV world. The first would be less work on the part of SJG, I imagine. - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:02:58 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN (was : What to Cut) Interesting thing about INS is that IMO the basic rulebook is fairly dull and rules-heavy. But the scenarios and supplements are fantastically wide-ranging. If SJG were going into the translation business, I'd so start with just translating scenarios, and making whatever rules adjustments need to be put in for IN. It wouldn't kill the spirit, although I'm not sure gamers who've only read IN would know quite what they're getting into :) jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 05:43:38 -0600 From: TH Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN (was : What to Cut) Perry Lloyd wrote: > >From: Emily Dresner-Thornber > > > Of course, the irony is that, overall, IN is probably a much better > >game. > > > It's the principle of the thing that gets to me. > > > >Actually, to be frankly honest, what I've seen and translated > >myself of INS/MV, it is a much better, or at least _funnier_, > >game. It has a certain amount of punch and style, much like Over > >the Edge or HoL. I was never clear on the mechanics -- but I'm > >never clear on mechanics of games I _write_, let alone run -- but > >the flavor material and the characters were just wonderful. The > >Superiors are very vivid, and they drip with wackiness. We > >even learn from INS/MV that demons of Fate play Rolemaster. > > > >Side by side, there is almost no comparison. Unlike IN, INS/MV > >has a definite satirical tone to the game. It's mean and > >vicious. And funny. And it has additude. > > That's funny, weren't there, like, comments that In Nomine lacked this sort > of thing? Uhhhh, for lack of a better word : personality? Honestly though it would depend on whether your sense of humor was similar to the French sense of humor (as a people their sense of humor is diffent from most Americans). Honestly, most European humor annoys me. Also, I think IN has plenty of personality, just not a sharp and vicious attitude. - -- Life is like a box of chocoloates, a cheap, thoughtless, perfunctory gift no one ever asks for. Unreturnable because all you get back is another box of chocolates. So you're stuck with this mostly undefinable whipped mint crap, mindlessly wolfed down when there's nothing else to eat during the game. Sure, once in a while you get a peanut butter cup or an English toffee, but it's gone too soon and the taste is fleeting. In the end you're left with nothing but broken bits of hardened jelly and teeth-shattering nuts, which if you are desperate enough to eat, leaves nothing but useless brown paper wrappers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:24:56 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) - --On Monday, February 26, 2001 1:54 PM -0500 "Jason F. McBrayer" wrote: > On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:40:29PM -0500, Marc Bowden wrote: >> --On Monday, February 26, 2001 1:09 PM -0500 "Jason F. McBrayer" >> wrote: >> >> > Yes, the trick is to actually have been there. With a >> > Superior-granted Role/6, everyone will remember you, too (whether >> > this is through some kind of Symphonic manipulation or through >> > having the Role lived out by a reliever or demonling until you >> > needed it), but there's at least one way for a Renegade/Outcast >> > to manage it. >> >> Yes, but that way tends to be Symphonically "noisy". And you get >> gooky stuff everywhere. > > Gooky stuff, I'll grant you. But why is living out a Role from > childhood noisy? It's not; evidence shows you can hide out for a good 30-33 years that way. The method you seemed to be alluding to in the quoted passage (especially "there's at least one way...to do it") referred to killing a human and assuming *their* Role. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Practical if you're in a hurry, but messy and usually wrong.") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:51:49 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Roles (Re: February 21, 2001 (ML)) At 1:33 PM -0800 2/26/01, Daiv wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>_Someone_ has to live the Role, and the longer >> and better they live it, the better the Role is. >So... your next door neighbor might actually be a three to five >force reliever or Demonling? Unlikely -- unless we're talking a kid here. More likely, a 4-6 Force one, to better simulate an adult. O:> >Who has no purpose, no desire to do >anything other than live a perfectly Normal Life. Whatever is >normal for that persona, anyway. This strikes me as a fertile >plain for a low powered game. Not playing the three to five >forcer, mind you. (I think it'd be fun! Throw in Lael from Servitorum and go for it... What was that game, King of the Playground?) >Whenever they >detect a disturbance, they get on the phone and report it to the >local tether (this is not breaking role, right? Not that it is >consistent with the role, but because the action is pretty much >totally passive, and is in any case, unwitnessed by anyone). Right (as you say). > This assumes that role building requires a long period of not >doing anything other than living the role, and not doing >anything to cause Disturbance. This is gone into in the Liber Servitorum, but basically; the disturbance issue is more that if you do weird stuff, then that might be noticed and be in the Role's record. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:57:19 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) - --On Monday, February 26, 2001 4:33 PM -0500 Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Superiors can't wave their hands and make a Role. (God could, and > Lucifer _might_ be able to come close, but we're talking the rule > not the exception...) And if you can get four human soldiers of Eli to sacrifice themselves to perform the lost Song of the Imraa Shaghadys*... But it'd have to be for something important like hiding a Key to missing Forces from an angry ethereal goddess or something.... Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Why yes, my wife *does* make me watch Buffy, why?") *The opposite, the Neuchooinaghtyn, is too horrible to contemplate. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:12:05 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Roles At 10:23 PM -0500 2/26/01, Charles Phipps wrote: >Creating roles is a bit of a difficult problem and while someone has >suggested having relievers or gremlins "grow up" on Earth to do the matter >they're are some alternative options for the unpleasantly inclined.... > >Such as "Pulling a Laurence" > >(Referring to his Kyriorite attunement) Liber Servitorum, p. 113, first column, beginning of last paragraph. O:> Doesn't explicitly mention stealing Roles, though; probably because if the Superior shows up, you're toast. (And if Role X's celestial is in Trauma by its Heart, or the Heart is shattered, and Role X is still in evidence as a person... Well, Superiors might show up to collect a remnant (in the case of shattered Hearts), punish a Fallen (in the case of angelic shattered Hearts) or Renegade (in the case of demonic shattered Hearts), or ask who the heck the person thinks he is (in case of Traumatized celestial). Or send a bunch of thugs, in that last case. (You could do it, but doing it long-term would probably be counter-survival.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:16:19 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Balseraph Resonance At 5:35 PM -0500 1/25/01, John Walter Biles wrote: >Does a Balseraph have to be lying when he uses his resonance? Nope. > Could he use it to force people to believe something true they don't want to >believe? Sure. >What if he THINKS he's lying? He can't -- the first effect of the resonance is to assume the worldview he wants. If he thought he was lying then one or both of two things would happen: A: the resonance would not work, and/or B: he would become dissonant. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:24:44 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Roles Again (Re: February 21, 2001 (ML)) At 1:15 AM -0500 2/27/01, Mike Bruner wrote: >BTW, since the question's sort of come up (and I don't have the book >describing Roles (Liber Servitorium?)), do Roles always require estensive >establishment for the higher levels like having a reliever/demonling live a >childhood? Basically, the level of the Role determines how "real" the Symphony thinks the Role is. Not just the paperwork, but how many _real people_ know you, even if it's just as, "Yeah, he comes and eats here every Friday night; real loner, never talks to anyone." If you have a Role of, say, "A Recluse" or "A Hacker," then you probably don't need to start it from scratch, but unless there is that amassed body of experience to give the Role weight, it won't get up to the 5-6 range. >[...] but I'm wondering if every >major Role requires years and years of prep time just to make it availible. As a major Role, typically -- you may have the Role as W3nd1g0 the master hacker, but you're not going to get the rep until you've been around long enough (and pulled off enough cool hacks) for people to know you, or know about you. This sort of Role might not take a lifetime, but probably will be 5+ years, at least, to get to high levels. (And even then, you'll want to suggest that you're a _young_ hacker -- trying to give the impression that you've been "around" since punchcards won't work, since there'll be no one who can vouch for you that way.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:38:33 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 01:27:07 -0600 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Admin request of type /\buns\w*b/i at line 8 >Status: U > >Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:18:31 -0800 >From: Ryan Elias >Subject: Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) > >Mike Bruner wrote: > >> but I'm wondering if every >> major Role requires years and years of prep time just to make it availible. > >I shouldn't think so. After all, there are plenty of people who're >completely off the record before a certain point (born way out in the >country, or in u n s alubrious locations in the slums, immigrants and >refugees, most anyone in some places through Africa and Asia...) that it >wouldn't be too hard too create an identity whole cloth in very little >time for a being of Archangelic power. > >This won't be possible for every circumstance, of course, but should be >enough to meet many needs (lesser roles, of course, are simply a matter >of providing ID and planting a few records). > >While we're on the subject, though, is it possible to confiscate a human >life? > >(confiscate is probably not the word I'm looking for, but whatever) > >That is to say, if Johanne Dough, aged twenty, is mauled by a bear or >something while hiking alone, and Shau Megracrithghx, Habbalah of >Asmodeus (who may or may not have been the bear) has a Johanne Dough >vessel custom made and takes his place, would it work? Would he have a >role, or just a stupid thursday night sitcom? > >And now I go to bed. Night. > > -Ryan > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:18:11 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Action Figures?! - --On Tuesday, February 27, 2001 12:13 AM +0000 Perry Lloyd wrote: >> Just when you thought you saw it all; religious action figures >> with weapons: >> >> http://www.jesuschristsuperstore.net/ >> >> Adam > > Check this OUT! HA! > > (Is is just me, or does the God Almighty action figure have the > biggest gun?) > I know this is where I usually make some dry, pithy comment, but I can't breathe. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("...his hardness, God's mortal messenger...") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:21:21 -0600 (CST) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Roles (Was Re: IN>February 21, 2001 (ML)) On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, in_nomine-digest wrote: > From: Elizabeth McCoy > Subject: Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) > > At 1:09 PM -0500 2/26/01, Jason F. McBrayer wrote: > >[...] With a > >Superior-granted Role/6, > > These do not exist in canon, with the exception of: > > >having the > >Role lived out by a reliever or demonling until you needed it), > > Superiors can't wave their hands and make a Role. (God could, and > Lucifer _might_ be able to come close, but we're talking the rule > not the exception...) _Someone_ has to live the Role, and the longer > and better they live it, the better the Role is. Of course, there's a way for a Renegade or Outcast to get a high level Role. Take someone's life. Litterally. Learn enough about someone through surreptitious surveillance both corporeally and in their dreams to pull off a credible impression. Then go to limbo and grow an identical vessel. Then, after emgerging, secretly kill the subject and dispose of the corpse. After that, step into the deceased one's life, and gain a Role 6. After all, there's nothing better than the real thing. This method would be used mostly by Renegades, though Outcasts might try this on "bad" humans. Also, it might be a common tactic of Hell, and even the more militant faction of Heaven (against Hell Sworn only, of course). Botched attempts at the above might even be how legends of doppelgangers got started. > The great gory details of this are in the Liber Servitorum. I don't have the book with me, and I can't remember the section on Roles. Is there any reason in there why the above wouldn't work? Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:28:11 -0500 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> What to Cut (was : Improvements for a second edition) >I tend to agree. Complaints that characters can't pick any ability they >want...well, this isn't Champions or GURPS. IN is essentially a class >system, with all of a class system's advantages and flaws... >Angels and demons being traditionally hierarchical beings, a class >system makes sense for them. Class... system... See, there's a stone-paved road in my mental landscape marked "RPG Translations." And, from this path, several paths branch - and the newest, after Tri-Stat...is d20. There are already forks on this path for Cyberpunk and NightLife... and now there's one for In Nomine. I don't yet know what's at the end of it... but I'll be certain to share once it's done. :) Oh, David. You're a bad, bad man. * * * * * Jason Schneiderman jadasc@ma.ultranet.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:25:13 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) >From: Marc Bowden >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:57:19 -0500 > > > >--On Monday, February 26, 2001 4:33 PM -0500 Elizabeth McCoy > wrote: > >>Superiors can't wave their hands and make a Role. (God could, and >>Lucifer _might_ be able to come close, but we're talking the rule >>not the exception...) > Actually, they can in my games. I think it counts as just another regular miracle :) jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:26:41 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN (was : What to Cut) - --On Tuesday, February 27, 2001 5:47 AM -0500 damienw@juno.com wrote: > > > On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:46:40 -0500 (EST) Emily Dresner-Thornber > writes: >> >> Side by side, there is almost no comparison. Unlike IN, INS/MV >> has a definite satirical tone to the game. It's mean and >> vicious. And funny. And it has additude. > > There's always a trade-off. You lose a lot of that biting > sarcastic flavor, but you gain the fact that IN can be played in > about eleventy-billion different ways. That said, it'd be cool to > see SJG publish the main INS/MV books in English, or perhaps a > "INS/MV" setting book that would allow one to adapt In Nomine > mechanics to the INS/MV world. The first would be less work on the > part of SJG, I imagine. > I still want to see an IN/Toon canonical setting. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation (At the risk of making the List Angel's brain explode, I just had the worst image regarding IN I've ever gotten... Drake Mallard Malakite of Justice Angel of Crusaders Role/6 (Darkwing Duck) ...let's stop there.) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2082 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.