From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Feb 27 13:08:25 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00358 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:08:24 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA29424 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:12:31 -0600 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:12:31 -0600 Message-Id: <200102271912.NAA29424@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2083 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, February 27 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2083 In this digest: Re: IN> Demonic Roles Re: IN> The Balseraph Resonance IN> D&D&IN Re: IN> D&D&IN Re: IN> What to Cut (was : Improvements for a second edition) Re: IN> D&D&IN Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN (was : What to Cut) Re: IN> D&D&IN Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) IN> Demonic Roles Re: IN> D&D&IN IN> In> Demonic Roles Re: IN> Action Figures?! Re: Roles (Was Re: IN>February 21, 2001 (ML)) Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN (was : What to Cut) Re: IN> D&D&IN Re: IN> In> Demonic Roles Re: IN> Demonic Roles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:42:57 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Roles - --On Monday, February 26, 2001 10:04 PM -0600 Charles Glasgow wrote: > This isn't to say that all general officers are saints, or even > pleasant people to know -- 'cause they ain't -- but they still > enjoy a good measure of success at weeding out the *drastically* > obvious malfunction cases. And a "heavy drinking problem" > qualifies. I have to concur on this one. All the general or flag officers I've ever met varied between stoic professionalism or laid-back charm. The ones that scared me were majors or light colonels with chips on their shoulders and no room for advancement in their MOSS. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("In the Air Force, you don't mind so much, since unlike the other armed services, we stand on the flight line and wave as we send the *officers* off to die.") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:24:11 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Balseraph Resonance Several people have now said that balseraphs don't lie from their own perspective (which is heavily delusional and shifting as the sands). Someone on the list, I forget who, had the amusing idea of balseraphs who want to be good but are scared of the ordeal of Redemption, or of specific angels they might meet, etc., and wind up as "Bright Balseraphs" whose job it is to tell the truth and *make* people believe it. (I'd assume they'd have a "handler," probably seraph or elohite, to keep them on the straight and narrow. And someone to watch the handler for being influenced, and...) There were also bright calabim, impudites, etc. There was no generally accepted formula for a bright shedite. Bright habbalah were pretty twisty, since they already thought they were angels... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:23:57 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: IN> D&D&IN - -----Original Message----- From: Jason Schneiderman To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 8:35 AM Subject: Re: IN> What to Cut (was : Improvements for a second edition) >>I tend to agree. Complaints that characters can't pick any ability they >>want...well, this isn't Champions or GURPS. IN is essentially a class >>system, with all of a class system's advantages and flaws... >>Angels and demons being traditionally hierarchical beings, a class >>system makes sense for them. > >Class... system... > >See, there's a stone-paved road in my mental landscape marked "RPG >Translations." >And, from this path, several paths branch - and the newest, after Tri-Stat...is >d20. Now this idea opens a new can of worms. How would In Nomine fit into the D20 system? (Probably not, mechanics-wise). Here's a concept: What if we added D&D Elements to In Nomine? Here's the concept: In the beginning, before Eli created Adam, Lillith and Eve, Humanity was still in the Neanderthal stage of their evolution, and Eli wasn't sure what he wanted Humanity to be like after he was done. So he consulted with his fellow Celestials in turn. First he turned to the young Novalis, who was currently tending the Garden of Eden (Actually a state of union with Nature, and not a physical place), who, flustered with being consulted, simply suggested making a noble, elegent and peaceful race of people who would remain in touch with nature. And so Eli made the first Elf, Corellon Larethian, and made him a mate. Now, the Elves, by any measure, were a master-piece of racial design: 400+ of life, elegent in form and in thought, living in harmony with nature... And, while Novalis and Raphael loved them and taught them the cycles of life, learning and magic, Eli wasn't completly satisfied with them. They seemed to lack the spark of Creation he was really looking for. So he turned to another friend, David, to ask what he felt the new race of Man should be like. Predictably, David said the new race of Man should be strong as stone in body, mind and soul, that they should live in touch with the Earth, and know how shape the Stone. And so Eli made the first Dwarf, Moradin. While David practically fell in love with the strong and determined Dwarves and told his Grigori to teach them mining and metalwork, Eli still wasn't satisfied. The Dwarves were pious and creative, but they seemed a bit too staid for his tastes. He decided to turn to two more Angels: Jean, an Angel of Knowledge (Unworded), and Kobal, Angel of Laughter. It took some arguing, but eventually the two agreed on a final concept: a race of intelligent and innovative people, who wanted to figure out how the world worked, but who weren't above taking the time to laugh and play around. And so Eli made the Gnomes. While Jean began teaching the Gnomes the basics of engineering (With Kobal teaching them the art of pranksting behind Jean's back), Eli still wasn't satisfied. The Gnomes were innovative and had the spark of life within them, but they seemed a bit too chaotic for his tastes. So he turned to Michael for advice. Michael, as expected, thought big, and wanted to create the race of man as beings who could shape the world on a grand scale. And so, with Michael's inspiration, Eli made the Giants. The Giants quickly attuned themselves to the elements and developped many variations, such as the Frost Giants and the Fire Giants. But while they affected the world on a grand scale, they often ignored the details of the World. So Eli went back to the drawing board and consulted with Janus, Archangel of the Wind. Janus, after a few seconds or so of thinking, said he would like it if the new race of Man were a race of wanderers, never staying forever in a single place. And so Eli made the Halflings. The Haflings were nice, but they never really did anything permanent, so Eli decided to ask for more advice from Baal, then still Angel of Valor. Baal thought about making a race of competitors and hunters, devoting their energies to mastering the arts of hunting, and organized like pack animals or ants, with different sub-species. Eli was a bit disconcerted by the request, but went to work (with Ball looking over his shoulder, constantly making "Suggestions"), and made the three Goblinoid races (Mostly because Baal couldn't decide on either one of them as the final result): The Goblins, the Hobgoblins and the Bugbear. Baal immediatly took to teaching the Goblinoids the art of the Hunt. But Eli REALLY wasn't pleased with the final result. The goblinoids were too chaotic and unfocused to be truly creative, and channeled what little imagination they had into learning new and better ways to kill prey. Disappointed in this last creation, he went somewhere on Earth to sulk and wallow in his self-pity. That's pretty much where Yves found him and asked him what was wrong. "Yves, I don't know what to do... God asked me to recreate humanity, and I've done so not once, not twice, but four times! ...I've consulted with Novalis, David, Jean, Kobal, Michael, Janus and even Baal to figure out how I should recreate Man, and though they seemed pleased with what I've made, I can't find myself to be satisfied with those new Races." "Eli, I think I know what your problem is. ...You've kept asking what other people wanted Man to be like. Not that the Elves, the Dwarves or the Gnomes aren't good (Though I'm wondering about the Giants and Goblins), but I think if God wanted David or Novalis to make the new race of Man, He would've asked them, not you. What do YOU think the new race of Man should be like?" For a good moment after that, Eli just stood and looked Yves in the eyes, then smiled as he understood, and immediatly went back to his drawing board. After ages of work and thought, Eli finally came up with the concept of Adam's race of Humanity: Unlike most other races, Adam's race weren't long-lived. They were deliberatly made with under a century of life, so as not to waste a single second of it. They could perceive the world and change it, but weren't dependent on the world to survive. And unlike the other races Eli made, Eli didn't give the Humans basic affinities, such as the Dwarf's for stone of the Goblin's for the hunt. Humans would constantly be in flux, recreating themselves from situation to situation, never stagnating. And Eli looked upon Man, and he was finally satisfied with the resulting species. Of course, the other Celestials were disappointed that their choices weren't the final result, but God decided to let all the races share the world anyways. Variety is the spice of life, after all. Still, Baal was frustrated that his suggestion, the Goblins, weren't kept as the final product. And Lucifer just didn't like most of the mortal races himself. So in an act of rebellion, he went down to Earth and created his own race of mortals, the Orcs, intended to be strong and defiant, and told them to seize the world for themselves. This was the act that sparked the War and the Fall. Baal went along with Lucifer, with the hopes that the Goblins would have a more favored status in the new order the Lightbringer promised. The usual events from the Fall therein took place: Lucifer lead a third of the host into rebellion, and Michael kicked Lucifer out of Heaven. The new Demons made their home in Hell and vowed vengence. But while Baal instructed his Goblins to try and serve Hell's purpose in hunting Humans and other races, Lucifer simply went into the Dreamscapes of the Elves, Dwarves and Humans, and found Lillith, who became the Human Princess of Freedom, her first act being freeing the forces of Hell upon the Earth. Lucifer then went to work corrupting the other races. He found it impossible to corrupt the variable Humans as a race, but was still able to corrupt those races who would become the Dark Elves, the Duergar and the Ogres and Trolls. During the Infamous battle between Uriel and Beelzebub, Uriel lost and got killed, but Beelzebub was himself killed afterwards by Laurence, who vowed vengence against Hell's forces for it. So the Purity Crusade never happens, and Laurence gets put in command of Heaven's Armies earlier then expected. Laurence goes to Earth to recruit amongst the mortal races, and creates an order of Heavenly Warriors he dubs the Paladins. Jean becomes the Angel, and then Archangel of Magic, not Lightning, after helping the Elves, figure out the ways of Arcane magic, which he later teaches to the Gnomes, and then the Humans (on Eli's request). Lucifer, after gaining Kronos, soon promotes Vapula to the role of Prince of Black Magic, as Jean's opposite number. Saminga soon becomes Prince of Death after figuring out the magics of Necromancy and the creation of Undead of all sorts. That's pretty much all I can think of so far. Maybe someone else has some ideas? - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:37:02 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> D&D&IN - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rolland Therrien" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 9:23 AM Subject: IN> D&D&IN [snip] > World. So Eli went back to the drawing board and consulted with Janus, > Archangel of the Wind. Janus, after a few seconds or so of thinking, said > he would like it if the new race of Man were a race of wanderers, never > staying forever in a single place. And so Eli made the Halflings. One slight problem -- Halflings are the ultimate stay-at-homes. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:44:23 -0500 From: "Jason F. McBrayer" Subject: Re: IN> What to Cut (was : Improvements for a second edition) On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 01:21:40AM +0000, Perry Lloyd wrote: > >From: "Jason F. McBrayer" > >The current system of Songs and Attunements is flavourful. If you > >want Champions, you know where to find it. > > Flavorful, certainly. They also take up a lot of space, and this is about > cutting things. True -- I guess I'm wandering off topic (but I think the system of Band and Choir Attunements is too central to the flavour of IN to even consider cutting). What would I cut, if I had to? Hrm.... The section on Disturbance could be streamlined a lot. I agree with Moe about some of the artwork being oversized, especially the two-page spreads at the beginning of each section being excessive. The glossary wouldn't be needed if the book were better organized and well-indexed. I don't have my book with me, so I can't say specifically, but it seemed that a lot of the stuff towards the very end of the book was not very useful. On the other hand, there's not a whole lot I'd want to see added either. Saints, maybe, but if all the information on Soldiers, Undead, and Saints were rewritten very concretely and put all in one place, it might not take up much extra space relative to what's there now. Information on Limbo (in core-book-only IN, what happens to Renegades/Outcasts/Free Liilim when they loose a vessel is undefined). Pointers to the appropriate books for more detailed information (who'd think, a priori, that the expanded rules for Roles would be in Liber Servitorum?). But almost all I really want out of a 2d edition would be a reorganization, application of all errata, and consistency with current Canon (inasmuch as that's possible; at least I want authoritative inconsistency). - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@carcosa.net | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:45:09 -0500 From: "John J. Maurer, Esq." Subject: Re: IN> D&D&IN - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Glasgow" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 10:37 AM Subject: Re: IN> D&D&IN > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rolland Therrien" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 9:23 AM > Subject: IN> D&D&IN > > > > [snip] > > World. So Eli went back to the drawing board and consulted with Janus, > > Archangel of the Wind. Janus, after a few seconds or so of thinking, said > > he would like it if the new race of Man were a race of wanderers, never > > staying forever in a single place. And so Eli made the Halflings. > > One slight problem -- Halflings are the ultimate stay-at-homes. Not in 3rd Ed. They are more like Gypsies. I really like this idea. Cosmology is very important to me in a campaign (As A Religious Studies Minor and Philosophy Major BA) and so I always detail everything starting with Creation Myths when I write my own world. This would be a cool thing to do in order to create a Pantheon. The Angels would be essentially the "gods" of the world. You could have an overarching Monotheistic God of Good (YHVH) and God of Evil (Lucifer) but the Angels are the actual Intercessionists. The whole notion of a Cold War is gone because they openly grant favors to the devout. And the game takes a real Good v. Evil feel. 3rd Ed even has rules for Celestial and Part Celestial PCs so you could work in the choirs of lesser angels and even the Nephalim. Cool. Speaks ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:59:21 -0500 From: "Jason F. McBrayer" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN (was : What to Cut) On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 01:12:46AM +0000, Perry Lloyd wrote: > I've received permission from Siroz productions to translate (and therefore > create a personal copy) of INS/MV into english. (Which means, no, I will NOT > be emailing copies or posting it on the web - that would be very illegal; so > none of you will ever see INS/MV in english unless you come down to Athens > and hold the hard-copy in your hands, or get permission from them to > translate it yourself.) If you're not going to post it anywhere or redistribute it in any way, you don't need their permission to translate it. That's covered by Fair Use. You just can't redistribute the translation. Don't ask permission for things that are your right -- it's servile and weak, and I may have to go all Habbalite on you. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@carcosa.net | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:19:10 -0500 From: "Jason F. McBrayer" Subject: Re: IN> D&D&IN On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 10:23:57AM -0500, Rolland Therrien wrote: [IN-D&D -- Creation of fantasy races snipped] I like it. It's clever, and kinda similar to Krynn's cosmology. Of course, what it Needs is Plusses. Lots of Plusses. An Archangel of Plusses. Can't have D&D without Plusses. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@carcosa.net | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:11:55 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> February 21, 2001 (ML) At 7:24 AM -0500 2/27/01, Marc Bowden wrote: > It's not; evidence shows you can hide out for a good 30-33 years >that way. The method you seemed to be alluding to in the quoted >passage (especially "there's at least one way...to do it") referred >to killing a human and assuming *their* Role. I assume that proto-impudite Imps (and proto-Mercurian Relievers) are often assigned to Role-Creation/Maintenance duty. In fact, I've got a couple of NPCs on my web page who're specifically building Roles for others to step into later on. That being said, I treat a Role/6 as a Miracle, and have no problem with saying a Superior can spin it out of the Symphony. It's just not *easy* so they don't do it if they don't have to. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:21:35 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Demonic Roles >*sigh* >How often have I seen this caricature in fiction? Probably as often as it's going to be more useful for an example of what type of person is going to be more useful to Baal. A Colonel Kurtz or a General Patton. We are talking about an example meant to be shown as a man definately being replaced by a demon because he's a scumbag you know. >This isn't to say that all general officers are saints, or even pleasant >people to know -- 'cause they ain't -- but they still enjoy a good measure >of success at weeding out the *drastically* obvious malfunction cases. And >a "heavy drinking problem" qualifies. Well dealing with Baal a man with INFINITE patience in all likelihood he's had the Balseraph whose going to replace him (it is an important role) serving as his aide and friendly companion for some time. In other words making sure he knows how to do the man's job for him and handling his affairs so when he takes over he will be familar for it. >Goodness, where on Earth would he have found the time? Admittedly, the >Desert Shield forces spent months and months sitting in the sand before >Desert Storm kicked off, but they didn't see any civilian Iraqis while they >were doing it. Fate's a funny thing Charles and can often seem like choosing the lesser of two evils as how you were taught. General Braag being a cariacture might have just ordered the U.S. military to stand down when Iraquis were beginning their brutal crackdown and commiting all sorts of atrocities against the local townsmen. He's obeying a superior officer I know but in this case it might not be what God wants (not an attack on the U.S. Military which did it's best I'm sure to avoid a long drawn out war and hoped Sadamn would fall on his own thanks to our already extensive efforts in the region) Effectively General bragg achieves his fate because of a sin of omisson even when his destiny seems horrid (breaking an order and getting court marshalled). Another point is that General Bragg might have delayed the war in Iraq or done something otherwise suitably hell worthy for purely selfish reasons.... As stated were dealing with a purely fictional scumbag. >One slight problem -- virtually no general officers are unmarried and/or >without kids. And even *with* memory dumps and Balseraphic resonances, >there's no impersonator alive good enough to live with a man's family for >years on end without somebody noticing something. There's simply too many >shared experiences. That's why I think Role 6/s are very rare and Baal prefers also people in advisory not command positions because it's easy to use one's resonance on a commander and be less likely to be investigated by Heaven when he becomes prosecuted for war crimes etc. Effectively Baal wouldn't want Hitler as a Role for one of his troops he would want a paper pusher in the S.S. under Heidrich Himmler in order to control what data gets to the man or he would want Heidrich Himmler's mistress to Geas the man to doing actions by suggestion or charm or resonance. He'd want a Colonel in the front lines doing the fighting because a Calabim or Djinn can prove to be a very admirable figure in a fox hole as you know In the words of Apocolypse now "He isn't going to get a scratch out here". You follow his orders and you'll win, you don't you die. Thus high charisma....and even then Baal when he doesn't need favored servitors has advisors to colonels and people LIKELY to get into the front lines so they're ready to wage brutal war or advocate fascist policies for teh "greater good" when the time comes. Shedim of course are the "gas" on the fire types sent there to make sure everybody is in this together.....they're the "edge" in combat that ultimately every soldier craves. Baal currently has less power in the Military of the U.S. than he used to but the man's a bit behind. Still if you want to create a role and you ABSOLUTELY MUST HAVE IT NOW for instance if General Braag whose not an alchoholic but a hard nosed, fascist with his own quirky sense of military honor and valor....like Baal himself, is about to be selected to head up the Archangel Prodject which is a top secret Military intelligence compilation on the supernatural that ultimately proves Angels exist.... Then likely he will have the man's ethereal forces grafted on and do you REALLY think a family matters Charles? So let's say you marry a career military woman whose a judge who suddenly becomes very withdrawn and doesn't want to talk about things. She may eventually want a divorce or whatever or you may have a relationship where...well you can fake it long enough to get by...people 'change' after all. Still I imagine it's common enough occurance for demons to scare and torment and corrupt families they "inherit". After all in this case a fated mortal (good mortals probably work to but I imagine they show up on Heaven's radar more when they go sour) and they can't be that close to their families to begin with usually. Worse case scenario you can always have them "disposed of" in a car accident, random act of violence, etc. Baal can't afford to waste demons on replacing families unless he has some greater purpose. (though having a hellsworn soldier have a "demon" for a son is a great way to create a role too as is killing and replacing him etc, no one ever said serving Hell was easy) - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:41:02 -0500 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> D&D&IN >Now this idea opens a new can of worms. How would In Nomine fit into the >D20 system? (Probably not, mechanics-wise). Well, that's the challenge, isn't it? :) The 3E Psionics book will have come into our FLGS by the time I leave work - I suspect that it contains the "proper" way to represent Songs. Bands and Choirs become Races, along with "human" and "undying" - for Undead and Saints. Superiors offer different Classes to their servitors - probably a standard Servitor and Soldier template, with places to swap in different "attunement" Feats. And the states of being "word-bound" or a Seneschal of a Tether might be Prestige Classes. [neat mythos construction skipped] * * * * * Jason Schneiderman, Editor, EDITORIAL HUMOR. E-mail: edhumor@tiac.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:32:37 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> In> Demonic Roles >Such as simply copying what mortal intelligence agencies do -- take somebody >who already has a security clearance and recruit him as an agent, with his >demonic 'case officer' being somebody who needs no security clearance and >never actually goes near the Big White Buildings in Washington DC or >Langley. If the KGB can do it (Special Agent Hanssen, anybody? Aldrich >Ames? Mr. Walker?), then people with access to Lilim, Balseraphs, various >attunements and Songs, etc, etc, should be *much* more successful at >spotting the already bad apples and getting them to fork over. Slight problem Tex in that unfortunately this has the odd difficulty of requiring someone who is competetant enough to evade all the security clearances, secret agendas, and occasional dissapearences required to get information to your local demon. I mean I understand that the "KGB" or the "Foreign power" or whatever the demon is masquerading as when bringing your suitcases full of money might make things alittle easier (most agents of the Game and War I think don't actually believe they're working for Hell...heck they may think that they're working for the IRA if Irish-Heaven may sue similar tactics). Unfortunately they'res still the possibility a mortal will get caught and the departments security goes up ten inches. While a Lilim office girl can just bite her lip and say to the Internal affairs guys "You can ignore this just once right? Remember when we were ". Why I imagine Lilim make GREAT lawyers in a old boys judge heavy legal system. >And the beauty of it is, since the people you're using are real humans who >really work there, and the demons go nowhere near the actual data, Laurence >and Dominic could park spotters on every corner in every hallway and never >hear a thing. Except of course that Catholic altar boys that grow up to work for Langley Virginia or those hard nose prosecutors working for the CIA or FBI are actually in effect servitors of a higher power. Why replacing someone is probably much easier than the juggling of numbers Heaven has to do through Marc, Dominic, and Jean in order to put a human in a living role when demons are actually needed to be spotted. Then again asking a friend out for a drink with your three buddies when your a investigator isn't so troublesome especially when one's very cute (Mercurian of Judgement), a bit stuffy and frowny (Seraph of Judgement), and a guy who just seems very anxious to get you guys together (Malakim of Judgement) >This works a *lot* better than screwing around with Roles in such heavily >monitored places, I'm sure. Only so much as spying does because let's face it....Hellsworn and traitors are no more trustworthy than demons and with less to lose than demons in your service. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:52:36 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Action Figures?! At 8:18 AM -0500 2/27/01, Marc Bowden wrote: >--On Tuesday, February 27, 2001 12:13 AM +0000 Perry Lloyd > wrote: >> (Is is just me, or does the God Almighty action figure have the >> biggest gun?) > > I know this is where I usually make some dry, pithy comment, but I >can't breathe. I haven't looked (I'm scared!), but I am reminded of the trade paperback I got recently. Entitled "Battle Pope." (It's got a certain INS/MV leaning to it. Especially as regards Jesus. Michael, on the other hand, could fit with IN/SJG as well...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:53:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Roles (Was Re: IN>February 21, 2001 (ML)) At 7:21 AM -0600 2/27/01, Benjamin Acosta wrote: >level Role. Take someone's life. Litterally. Learn enough about someone [...] >I don't have the [Liber Servitorum] with me, and I can't remember the >section on Roles. >Is there any reason in there why the above wouldn't work? It's even mentioned as a way. O:> (Though you'd want a loner to replace, so as to have fewer potential complications.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:55:00 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN (was : What to Cut) At 8:26 AM -0500 2/27/01, Marc Bowden wrote: >Marc. Just Marc. >Elohite Angel of Salvation >(At the risk of making the List Angel's brain explode, I just had the >worst image regarding IN I've ever gotten... [...] >Role/6 (Darkwing Duck) >...let's stop there.) Are you SURE you're an Elohite? - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:04:53 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> D&D&IN At 10:45 AM -0500 2/27/01, John J. Maurer, Esq. wrote: >From: "Charles Glasgow" >> From: "Rolland Therrien" >> [snip] >> One slight problem -- Halflings are the ultimate stay-at-homes. > >Not in 3rd Ed. They are more like Gypsies. *cough*kender*cough* >This would be a cool thing to do in order to create a Pantheon. The Angels >would be essentially the "gods" of the world. *snrk* I already did this, as it happens. It's in, hm, Interregnum 41 or 40. (Check out http://www.fantasylibrary.com/ir/index.htm for contact of the editor(s), who will, I am sure, be happy to sell you a copy. (I feel obligated to help out the APA first, before sending along the computer file...)) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:10:18 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In> Demonic Roles At 1:32 PM -0500 2/27/01, Charles Phipps wrote: >>Such as simply copying what mortal intelligence agencies do -- take >somebody >>who already has a security clearance and recruit him as an agent, [...] > >Slight problem Tex in that unfortunately this has the odd difficulty of >requiring someone who is competetant enough to evade all the security >clearances, secret agendas, and occasional dissapearences required to get >information to your local demon. What, don't you people have access to Shedim? Forget the Bals, forget the Habbalah, even forget the Impudites. You want a Shedite. In the guy's dentist or something. Slip in. Steer the host around, prompting it for things like passwords and whatnot. Get the data. Complain about feeling a bit sick to cover any fuzzy thinking. (Sneeze some.) Slip out of the host via a spouse or kid. Complain about feeling sick. Slip out of that one via something handy. (Ooze ooze.) A few more oozings, and you can grab some bum and report to your Tether. Collect call from a payphone, even. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:06:44 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Roles > >*sigh* > >How often have I seen this caricature in fiction? >Probably as often as it's going to be more useful for an example of what >type of person is going to be more useful to Baal. Problem is, a personality such as the type described is useful to nobody. He's operating with impaired judgement, he has poor impulse control, his reputation has got to be bloody awful, and therefore nobody senior to him will take his opinions and recommendations as seriously as they would somebody else's. Just as the some of the most dangerous Balseraphs out there are the ones with Role/6 (Beloved And Kindly Old Priest), if Baal *really* wants to corrupt the US military, then he needs to "replace" somebody like General Colin Powell back when he was still in the service. Respected by most, great reputation, in a position to give advice to the most senior levels of government and be believed with great credibility, and simply above suspicion. Spooks know that when you want to bore from within, there are only two really good covers -- the guy who everybody loves and is above suspicion, or the guy who's so blandly average that he's The Invisible Man. The guy that's doing an omni-direcitonal broadcast of "I'm An A******" signals at 1.21 gigawatts is damaged goods. >A Colonel Kurtz The Colonel Kurtz of "Apocalypse Now", should he actually exist, wouuld work just fine promoting Baal's word entirely on his own. He doesn't *need* demonic intervention or replacement in his life to become a more effective tool. >or a General Patton. That must be the first time I've ever heard Kurtz and Patton mentioned in the same breath, and I'm curious as to why. Plus, if you want to really do maximum damage, you don't go for those guys. You corrupt and turn to your service (or just plain 'replace') a Bradley, or an Eisenhower, or a Schwarzkopf, or a Powell. >We are talking about an example meant to be shown as a man definately being >replaced by a demon because he's a scumbag you know. Except for Shedim and to a lesser extent Habbalah, there is no law saying that demons have to act like demons when they're playing a Role. The smarter demons are perfectly capable of putting on a 'nice' act and keeping it there for as long as they're 'on stage'... and the dumber demons don't get picked for this kind of duty, they just get used for cheap muscle and/or routine shuffling about. Besides, any Demon Prince who sends anything other than an Impudite (or *maybe* a Balseraph, although Balseraphs generally have to work on the 'scoot and scoot' principle -- the lies add up after a while, people start noticing, and they start taking dissonance. By necessity, con men are *mobile* operators.) for a long-term-in-place infiltration job like this is dumber than Saminga. Impudites of the War are especially suited to infiltrating military organizations -- they were given that attunement for a *reason*. No dissonance for killing armed humans in combat... and the rules most modern armies follow mean that they won't be shooting unarmed ones anyway! Canon note -- "Lieutenant Tischler", Israeli Army. ("Final Trumpet", IIRC.) He's an Impudite of the War with a Role/6 as an army officer -- his men just plain *love* him, and will follow him anywhere. Or into anything. And his superiors all write him glowing evaluations, because he's a very competent and dedicated officer with a real touch for leadership. At the rate he's going, he'll become a general in his *own* right in 15 years... which for a Demon Prince as old as Baal is very little time indeed. Remember, while Nybbas and Vapula and suchlike are too young to have learned real patience, Baal is one of the First of the Fallen and works some of his plans on a timescale of decades and centuries. > >This isn't to say that all general officers are saints, or even >pleasant >people to know -- 'cause they ain't -- but they still enjoy >a good measure >of success at weeding out the *drastically* obvious >malfunction cases. >And a "heavy drinking problem" qualifies. >Well dealing with Baal a man with INFINITE patience in all likelihood he's >had the Balseraph whose going to replace him (it is an important role) >serving as his aide and friendly companion for some time. See above. If Baal wants to really be patient, the ideal solution is simply to wait until the aide is himself promoted to the rank of general -- which between a demon's all-around physical and intellectual superiority to humans, the Impudite or Balseraphic resonances, and the rest of a demonic 'support structure' willing to fudge events and/or put the skids under the competition, is a very likely conclusion. I think that Laurence and Michael need to devote some *real* effort to monitoring promotion boards to keep Baal's "Project: Promotion" from getting one of his Distincted up to the Joint Chiefs Of Staff in a mere thirty-year effort. [snip] [snip Fate discussion] >As stated were dealing with a purely fictional scumbag. Yes, but we're aiming for *well-written* fiction here, not just the same old LCD stereotype. > >One slight problem -- virtually no general officers are unmarried >and/or >without kids. And even *with* memory dumps and Balseraphic >resonances, >there's no impersonator alive good enough to live with a >man's family for >years on end without somebody noticing something. >There's simply too many >shared experiences. >That's why I think Role 6/s are very rare Rare, but not very rare. >and Baal prefers also people in advisory not command positions because it's >easy to use one's resonance on a commander and be less likely to be >investigated by Heaven when he becomes prosecuted for war crimes etc. Actually, if I were Baal, I'd simply make myself a 50-year project... I need a senior and very competent Impudite, a more junior Impudite or Lilim, and pretty much any demon or demonling in a male role. I give the junior Impudite/Lilim and the demonling a couple of basic Role/2's or 3's... Joe and Jane Civilian. They don't need a particularly high Role 'cause they won't be doing anything spectacular. They then have a 'child' -- the senior Impudite. (Note -- and this is assuming that Baal isn't just going to use Hellsworn to play the role of the parents.) The Impudite will grow up as a bright, athletic, handsome young kid who will spend his teen years doing teen things (and getting good grades) and then go to West Point. The security clearance people will of course come around to interview his "parents" (as well as his teachers, etc.) -- but his "parents" are primed with the right script, and his teachers and friends and neighbors are simply telling the truth as they know it, because he actually has been living the Role. While our Impudite (let's call him "John") in West Point, his parents will "die" in an auto accident. The demonling can go off to other duties. Jane, meanwhile, is given a new Vessel and a new Role -- as a very cute and charming young lady named "Sally", who will later meet "John" and "get married". Sadly, she will prove to be "infertile", and they will be one of those married couples that can't have children naturally. So they'll either be childless, or else they'll adopt. (A pair of Impudites would have no problem raising human kids in total ignorance of the War -- they're cheap camouflage that no angel can see through, and handy Essence snacks on feet, and their resonance will make sure that the kids behave themselves and not be annoying.) Again, nothing that draws the slightest amount of attention. And now John has a "family", so he fits in with all the other guys in *every* detail. (If "John" truly needs parents-in-law, Hellsworn can suffice. "John" is the one who has personal interviews checking out his entire background, "Sally" just has people checking the paper records.) Given that the average celestial is as smart, strong, tough, and fast as the exceptional human, and that Baal picked a decidedly above-average celestial to play "John", between that and the various other resources available to a Demon Prince... well, if John doesn't make general by the time he's 50 then Baal's luck has obviously been truly awful. John's in a good running for four stars at this rate. Please note that it's entirely possible for "John" to skate through his entire "life" without causing disturbance, between his Role/6 and his Impudite of the War attunement. Please also note that once "John" starts becoming pretty senior, I can recycle the process with "Fred" and "Frank" and however many other *junior* officers I can get enlisted... with Colonel or General John available to take them into his unit, make them his aides, sit on their promotion boards, etc. When you're immortal and possessed of a patience that has lasted billions of years since the creation of the universe, making long-term sleeper agents *truly* long-term should be a trivial exercise. Of course, angels can do the same thing. [snip] >Effectively Baal wouldn't want Hitler as a Role for one of his troops he >would want a paper pusher in the S.S. under Heidrich Himmler in order to >control what data gets to the man or he would want Heidrich Himmler's >mistress to Geas the man to doing actions by suggestion or charm or >resonance. True enough -- but the above makes General Bragg only *more* unsuitable to Baal's purposes, as not only is he too dysfunctional, but he's too prominent. This also means that "John" can be doing a tremendous amount of damage all the way up the ladder. [snip] >Still if you want to create a role and you ABSOLUTELY MUST HAVE IT NOW for >instance if General Braag whose not an alchoholic but a hard nosed, fascist >with his own quirky sense of military honor and valor....like Baal himself, >is about to be selected to head up the Archangel Prodject which is a top >secret Military intelligence compilation on the supernatural that >ultimately proves Angels exist.... That's a lot of "ifs" to put all in one sentence. And if you absolutely must have a role and have it now, then you replace his aide-de-camp or his chief of staff. Everybody watches at the stars, but nobody looks at the lieutenant's bars. >Then likely he will have the man's ethereal forces grafted on and do you >REALLY think a family matters Charles? Grafting a human's Ethereal forces onto the demon risks changing the personality of the demon considerably. [snip] >Baal can't afford to waste demons on replacing families unless he has some >greater purpose. Actually, the biggest advantage that Hell has over Heaven is that Hell *does* have manpower to burn. It's Heaven that has to be very sparing with its deployments. >(though having a hellsworn soldier have a "demon" for a son is a great way >to create a role too as is killing and replacing him etc, no one ever said >serving Hell was easy) Killing and replacing your own Hellsworn does have a certain merit to it, I'll admit. Nice idea. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2083 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.