From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Feb 27 21:47:56 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08398 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:47:56 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id VAA19484 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:51:51 -0600 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:51:51 -0600 Message-Id: <200102280351.VAA19484@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2084 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, February 27 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2084 In this digest: IN> In> Demonic role IN> In> Demonic roles Re: IN> In> Demonic roles Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN (was : What to Cut) Re: IN> In> Demonic roles Re: IN> In> Demonic roles Re: IN> In> Demonic Roles Re: IN> In> Demonic Roles IN> Demonic Mindset IN> AD&D and In Nomine Re: IN> February 22, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> Tsayadim targetting Re: IN> Memes IN> Re: INS/MV vs IN Re: IN> Re: INS/MV vs IN Re: IN> Re: INS/MV vs IN Re: IN> Re: INS/MV vs IN Re: IN> AD&D and In Nomine The Djinn Mindset (Re: IN> Demonic Mindset) Re: IN> AD&D and In Nomine Re: IN> Demonic Mindset Re: The Djinn Mindset (Re: IN> Demonic Mindset) Re: IN> Re: INS/MV vs IN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:20:39 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> In> Demonic role I stand corrected Chuck John's much better - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:28:24 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> In> Demonic roles Actually I withdraw that... Your guy would never work I don't think because while demons don't HAVE to act like demons they *DO* act like demons because it's their nature. A Impudite's nature is to be a parasite and a leach off the human condition and I would like you to point me out this outstanding Impudite in Baal's army who has the SELFLESS nature that would be required to not sleep with every woman on the base and drain the other officers dry (leaving them destined to miss every target or die in large numbers) even if he is a charming wonderful fellow.... Basically a demon's loyalty is not his strong suit. They're not in Hell (usually) because they believe in the cause they're in Hell because they believe it will give them the most stuff. A demon might be persuaded for fifty years to act like St. Theresa...bleah...in order to get major rewards from Baal's superior but eventually their probably going to screw up because demons nature are to do exactly that, they're creatures of excess, the Seven Deadly Sins, etc. A Kindly old priest balseraph is still going to have lots of parishoners who are murderous, adulterous, or otherwise unpleasant folk...and probably unless corruption is it's own reward (Dark Humor, Fate) then he's going to indulge himself as well in secret. or the Game is going to check up on their arse and make sure they spend the next century cleaning Haagenti's toilets. I find it difficult to believe very many demons can reign in their self indulgent impulses long enough to get promoted in the Old Boys network by being fine upstanding citazens before they start to question whether or not hell is exactly the place for them... They're either A:) Very unhappy being good and want to explode outward B:) They are very happy being good and that's even worse. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:23:34 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In> Demonic roles At 2:28 PM -0500 2/27/01, Charles Phipps wrote: >Your guy would never work I don't think because while demons don't HAVE to >act like demons they *DO* act like demons because it's their nature. Whoa, whoa, whoa. The nature of demons is a _GM call_, everyone. They are selfish, but that doesn't mean that you can't find an honorable one, a discliplined one, one who thinks that messing with humans is beneath its dignity, or all of the above. A stupid demon with no willpower is probably going to go around being nasty. A smart demon who can restrain its impulses (out of being dutiful or afraid of what its Prince will do should it blow its cover) can be as sweet as sugar. Indeed, having demons who _do_ have "good" characteristics is one of the prime features of many games. Is a demon who has "redeeming" features really a redemption candidate? What if the demon has a strong sense of duty -- to its Prince? What if it _loves_ its Prince? (Or another demon, or a damned soul, or some other unsuitable entity who can't be brought along should the demon redeem...) (In particular, Gamesters are likely _excellent_ at being "good" in their undercover roles. Sure, they're laughing hysterically on the inside that all the idiots around them are _buying_ the deception, but unless you're an Elohite or a really perceptive Habbalite, how are you going to tell? Look at the Shedim of the Game -- they can choose whether or not to corrupt a host at all! Best place to have the weird "honorable enemy" characters who have a twisted liking for the humans they ride -- and would not for all the tea in China want to redeem. Why not? Because if they did, they could no longer experience human lives as directly, with memories and even being able to _talk_ to the little pets!) So let's be careful saying how demons _MUST_ act; if it's not laid out as a dissonance condition, there's going to be lattitude. Heck, there's probably even one Habbalite who knows he's a demon and likes it. Of course, he keeps his mouth very very tightly shut on that point, since other Habbalah... _object_ ...to defective members of their "Choir"... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:18:47 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV vs IN (was : What to Cut) - --On Tuesday, February 27, 2001 1:55 PM -0500 Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 8:26 AM -0500 2/27/01, Marc Bowden wrote: >> Marc. Just Marc. >> Elohite Angel of Salvation >> (At the risk of making the List Angel's brain explode, I just had >> the worst image regarding IN I've ever gotten... > [...] >> Role/6 (Darkwing Duck) >> ...let's stop there.) > > > Are you SURE you're an Elohite? > *flutter* *innocent look* We're allowed to like cartoons. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("The one red sock in your load of whites.") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:26:56 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> In> Demonic roles >A Impudite's nature is to be a parasite and a leach off the human condition ... and to make the people around him *like* it. Remember, first you Charm, *then* you feed. A competent Impudite can leech off of everybody around him *without anybody around him giving a damn*. Remember, he's only after the Essence, the rest is just a matter of taste. >and I would like you to point me out this outstanding Impudite in Baal's >army who has the SELFLESS nature Selfless, nothing. It's just discipline -- Baal has ordered him to maintain a 'good' profile, therefore he does. Servitors of the War are very disciplined and loyal... 'cause Baal weeds out the ones who aren't before they even fledge as full demons. Darwinian selection *does* work... and remember, corporeal duty is something that demons have to *earn*. >that would be required to not sleep with every woman on the base Please note that unless they serve Lust, there is nothing actually requiring any demons to even *want* to sleep with humans. Indeed, one possible interpretation of the demonic outlook has the Lusties looked upon as disgusting perverts by some of the rest, because they actually like to have sex with... ugh... *monkeys*. : and drain the other officers dry (leaving them destined to miss every : target or die in large numbers) Actually, it's mentioned that "Lt. Tischler" mostly sucks Essence out of his own troops -- a couple points here, a couple points there, nobody notices. After all, you're *expected* to feel exhausted and worn out just after coming off the morning run, or after having finished a 20-mile march in full field pack. : even if he is a charming wonderful fellow.... If a demon actually has to get it out of his system and act beastly to someone, they can always just do it discreetly behind locked doors. In a Demonic Tether, should one be handy. Heck, if *really* necessary, it could even be a case of: "Althazaz? Would you mind getting your Djinn butt over here and standing in place in a look-alike of my "Lieutenant Smith" Vessel for a couple of days? It's the weekend, so all you really have to do is lounge around 'my' apartment and eat Cheetos. And if an alert gets called and I have to go in, just dial the Tether on the pay phone and I'll get back to you." "Sure. Why?" "I've gotten permission to go take a three-day pass in another Vessel, and I haven't had a good rampage in months." "Cool. Where ya' goin?" "Thailand, as a 'Japanese businessman on holiday'. You can have a real Hell of a time there." "Tell me about it." >A demon might be persuaded for fifty years to act like St. >Theresa...bleah...in order to get major rewards from Baal's superior ... and since only above-average demons are picked for these difficult kinds of missions, your point is? >but eventually their probably going to screw up Only if you pick demons who ain't all-stars at the business. But then again, missions this long-term and difficult are *not* handed to newbies, clods, or grunts. They're handed to the *good* ones. >because demons nature are to do exactly that, they're creatures of excess, >the Seven Deadly Sins, etc. A Kindly old priest balseraph is still going >to have lots of parishoners who are murderous, adulterous, or otherwise >unpleasant folk... Of course he will. Heck, he's probably *growing* them... subtly, and indirectly. Why else do you think they put him there? >and probably unless corruption is it's own reward (Dark Humor, Fate) then >he's going to indulge himself as well in secret. "In secret", especially if you're playing Musical Vessels, is quite easy to arrange for demons. >or the Game is going to check up on their arse and make sure they spend the >next century cleaning Haagenti's toilets. Which by itself is enough incentive to make some demons spend 50 years pretending to say the Rosary without even one little coffee break. >I find it difficult to believe very many demons can reign in their self >indulgent impulses Kindly look at the history of politics to see just how many well-beloved public figures with truly saintlike reputations actually had really disgusting secret lives that were never, ever, noticed or commented upon in public, and you'll begin to see how the demons can work this and still win... >long enough to get promoted in the Old Boys network Please note that except for Lilim, nothing can work a "friends' network" like the Impudite resonance. *Everybody* wants to cut old Bob a break, 'cause Bob is just the swellest guy anybody's ever known... >by being fine upstanding citazens before they start to question whether or >not hell is exactly the place for them... > >They're either > >A:) Very unhappy being good and want to explode outward > >B:) They are very happy being good and that's even worse. Or, most commonly: C) They're getting a real kick out of watching everybody love them while they're actually being a total SOB out to do a long-term corruption of everything they're touching... remember, sleeper agents are inserted in place to *do something*, and that something will itself be pretty darned Evil. No law against a demon being in it just for the job satisfcation, is there? - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:28:04 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> In> Demonic roles >A Impudite's nature is to be a parasite and a leach off the human condition ... and to make the people around him *like* it. Remember, first you Charm, *then* you feed. A competent Impudite can leech off of everybody around him *without anybody around him giving a damn*. Remember, he's only after the Essence, the rest is just a matter of taste. >and I would like you to point me out this outstanding Impudite in Baal's >army who has the SELFLESS nature Selfless, nothing. It's just discipline -- Baal has ordered him to maintain a 'good' profile, therefore he does. Servitors of the War are very disciplined and loyal... 'cause Baal weeds out the ones who aren't before they even fledge as full demons. Darwinian selection *does* work... and remember, corporeal duty is something that demons have to *earn*. >that would be required to not sleep with every woman on the base Please note that unless they serve Lust, there is nothing actually requiring any demons to even *want* to sleep with humans. Indeed, one possible interpretation of the demonic outlook has the Lusties looked upon as disgusting perverts by some of the rest, because they actually like to have sex with... ugh... *monkeys*. : and drain the other officers dry (leaving them destined to miss every : target or die in large numbers) Actually, it's mentioned that "Lt. Tischler" mostly sucks Essence out of his own troops -- a couple points here, a couple points there, nobody notices. After all, you're *expected* to feel exhausted and worn out just after coming off the morning run, or after having finished a 20-mile march in full field pack. : even if he is a charming wonderful fellow.... If a demon actually has to get it out of his system and act beastly to someone, they can always just do it discreetly behind locked doors. In a Demonic Tether, should one be handy. Heck, if *really* necessary, it could even be a case of: "Althazaz? Would you mind getting your Djinn butt over here and standing in place in a look-alike of my "Lieutenant Smith" Vessel for a couple of days? It's the weekend, so all you really have to do is lounge around 'my' apartment and eat Cheetos. And if an alert gets called and I have to go in, just dial the Tether on the pay phone and I'll get back to you." "Sure. Why?" "I've gotten permission to go take a three-day pass in another Vessel, and I haven't had a good rampage in months." "Cool. Where ya' goin?" "Thailand, as a 'Japanese businessman on holiday'. You can have a real Hell of a time there." "Tell me about it." >A demon might be persuaded for fifty years to act like St. >Theresa...bleah...in order to get major rewards from Baal's superior ... and since only above-average demons are picked for these difficult kinds of missions, your point is? >but eventually their probably going to screw up Only if you pick demons who ain't all-stars at the business. But then again, missions this long-term and difficult are *not* handed to newbies, clods, or grunts. They're handed to the *good* ones. >because demons nature are to do exactly that, they're creatures of excess, >the Seven Deadly Sins, etc. A Kindly old priest balseraph is still going >to have lots of parishoners who are murderous, adulterous, or otherwise >unpleasant folk... Of course he will. Heck, he's probably *growing* them... subtly, and indirectly. Why else do you think they put him there? >and probably unless corruption is it's own reward (Dark Humor, Fate) then >he's going to indulge himself as well in secret. "In secret", especially if you're playing Musical Vessels, is quite easy to arrange for demons. >or the Game is going to check up on their arse and make sure they spend the >next century cleaning Haagenti's toilets. Which by itself is enough incentive to make some demons spend 50 years pretending to say the Rosary without even one little coffee break. >I find it difficult to believe very many demons can reign in their self >indulgent impulses Kindly look at the history of politics to see just how many well-beloved public figures with truly saintlike reputations actually had really disgusting secret lives that were never, ever, noticed or commented upon in public, and you'll begin to see how the demons can work this and still win... >long enough to get promoted in the Old Boys network Please note that except for Lilim, nothing can work a "friends' network" like the Impudite resonance. *Everybody* wants to cut old Bob a break, 'cause Bob is just the swellest guy anybody's ever known... >by being fine upstanding citazens before they start to question whether or >not hell is exactly the place for them... > >They're either > >A:) Very unhappy being good and want to explode outward > >B:) They are very happy being good and that's even worse. Or, most commonly: C) They're getting a real kick out of watching everybody love them while they're actually being a total SOB out to do a long-term corruption of everything they're touching... remember, sleeper agents are inserted in place to *do something*, and that something will itself be pretty darned Evil. No law against a demon being in it just for the job satisfcation, is there? - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:35:25 -0500 From: "Krishnaswami, Neel" Subject: Re: IN> In> Demonic Roles Charles Glasgow wrote: > > Such as simply copying what mortal intelligence agencies do -- take > somebody who already has a security clearance and recruit him as an > agent, with his demonic 'case officer' being somebody who needs no > security clearance and never actually goes near the Big White > Buildings in Washington DC or Langley. If the KGB can do it > (Special Agent Hanssen, anybody? Aldrich Ames? Mr. Walker?), then > people with access to Lilim, Balseraphs, various attunements and > Songs, etc, etc, should be *much* more successful at spotting the > already bad apples and getting them to fork over. It depends on the campaign. IMC, all Roles were created through actual work, and unless someone had lived a whole life they couldn't get a high-level role. There was only one exception to this: the Game. The Roles that Game demons got as their band attunement literally appeared as if through magic. Think of all the stories of the evil vizier appearing in the court out of nowhere and not having his presence questioned. If a demon of the Game spent character points on a level 6 role, then it could create the Role out of nothing and there would be no background check anyone could do that could break the Role. Every paper would be in order, every witness would confirm them -- in the instant it chose who it would be. The two human cops who found out about this found it the most frightening demonic power around. One day you could get a demon as a superior officer and never even realize that anything unusual had happened. I imagine that someone whose whole job was security would find it even more nervous-breakdown-inducing. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:58:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In> Demonic Roles Krishnaswami, Neel wrote: > Every > paper would be in order, every witness would confirm them -- in the > instant it chose who it would be. Was there any explanation of this? That is, was it an actual alteration of history, or a mass diddling of records and memories, or what? Could, say, a suitable seraphic resonnance see through it? (The angels in the TV series "Touched by an Angel" appear to have some trick like this. They show up in any job, and they may flasn an ID, or there may be a memo or so about them coming, but, apparently, no one ever thinks to ask any more searching questions -- or even their last names, which they never have. Of course, they seldom take roles that would entail high security.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:51:49 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Demonic Mindset This should probably be addressed but demons probably have trouble with roles because no matter what HUMANS are different creatures from demons and expecting them to fit into 'normal' seeming roles without extensive experience and trial and error is wishful thinking if not out and out mad on the part of Princes. Even at their essential nature they are sociopaths from "birth" or transformation. Balseraphs: Effectively you must be the most arrogant creature in creation in order for your resonance to work, you BELIEVE that you cannot be wrong effectively and that anything you say must be the truth and becomes so because you are incapable of error. Calabim: Imagine being so full of power and strength that it literally oozes out your flesh in the form of blood or psychopathtic rages...every Calabim does this because they cannot move fast enough or with the times, they choose to hold in that desire and it explodes all about them....killing and destroying everything about. Djinn: You are a creature who effectively does not care about anything but has an unconcious need to be adored and fawned upon like a Cherub does to his human (usually). Habbalah: You are a creature of such amazing passions and rampant insanity that you believe fully rightly that everything you do is a divine act of faith so purely do you feel your emotions. Sex, Murder, Destruction...all expressed from your soul and released on the world around you with ease. Lilim: From the very momment of birth you are enslaved and from that momment you must count your favors to ever stop being enslaved and make sure you note that everything you do is remembered to be called upon later....also prey on the weak because you can't do it to strong willed. Shedim: Imagine needing to take other beings over and destroy their lives because of the ultimate hatred you have for everything, you must tear down everything because you are one being and can only see one viewpoint...Lucifers or your own....or both as one. Impudites: Imagine you are a creature that is perfectly charming and can get anything you want but have a voracious need for the very stuff of the universe...and you must be charming to get it. Now for Principalties: Abaddon: You grow up kidnapping people and tearing them to shreds for power...nice job. Archives: Your entire life is spent reading books about human failure and learning how to exploit it as you are taught that the most beutiful thing in the universe is teh ending of it all...and oblivion of the spirit. Gehenna: The first sound you hear in birth is the splattering of men's inards and their dying screams. The rest of your life is spent gutting the wounded and dragging your WORTHWHILE men off the battlefield before learning to kill people when they just won't die (so why should death be feared on the Corporeal realm...you've likely had your arm blown off a thousand times?) Hades: You grew up with the words Double-think and Thought Crime imbedded into your tongue. Nightmare Lands: Imagine you lived in Freddy's house your entire life and Freddy one day asks you to help and take over when he moves on....showing you the perks. Perdition: Imagine growing up watching people executed, tortured, raped, commit incest, and do every horrible thing in the other lords and the stuff done to entertain and in such a way your supposed to root it on. Now imagine you find unimaginable benifits producing and helping make this kind of stuff come to life.... Sheol: Imagine being burned was erotic, soothing, and an act of love and the screams of the burning damned were used by your parents to lull you to sleep. Every demon is taught to embrace these aspects of fire here... Shal-Mari: Imagine as a fourteen year old child that you had been raised with no concept of anyone saying "No" and meaning it and that all forms of sex, pranks, drugs, and food were enjoyable and if you wanted someone or someone wanted you, they could just be pulled off the street and whatever they want done with no consequences.... Imagine humans were kept deliberately beutiful, stupid, and ready and they existed soley for your pleasure...taht's what a demon there is taught. Stygia: On your first day in school you are beaten up, raped, your wallet and books stolen and you have no one to complain to. The next day the very same group of guys come up to and say they lost a man and they want you to join...refuse and they do it again... Tarterus: You spent your childhood chemistry set pouring syanide in a man's eye and counted the number of screams a man made in an hour for a experiment to Vapula...if you did it right you got a cookie. You can see how every demon is a truly twisted mindset AND NOT just very selfish human beings. They'res a reason demons are portrayed the way they are. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:58:58 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> AD&D and In Nomine I like it ALOT however you forgot this. Eli looked at Uriel and asked him what he should make the race of man like. Uriel said that mankind should have the power to melt the very stones of the earth and purify all with their powerful strength and ancient wisdom. Gabriel took notice and decided to help. Eli discovered the result was very similar to the Seraphim and created the Dragons. Eli talked to Jordi who said mankind should be animals and many types to achieve union with gods creation... thus centaurs, mermaids, sphinxes, and other creatures came about - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:24:28 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> February 22, 2001 (ML) - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Washington's Axe Ai-yah! I like! ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:28:42 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Tsayadim targetting - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Do the Tsayadium go after any and all Ethereals, or just those > making pretensions of divinity? I was under the impression that all Ethereals are considered legitimate targets, but that the Tsayadim are smart enough to prioritize. Thus, something like the Faithful Dog would only be in danger if it became a target of opportunity. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:34:44 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Memes - --- Santiago wrote: > Actually, what if memes are really alive in In Nomine? Then they'd be low-powered Ethereals roughly equal to Dream Fragments -- but they could potentially grow in power _much_ more quickly. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "You have walked through the halls of power and have somehow managed to remain untouched. I can only assume that you have not been paying attention." -- Londo Molari __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:09:25 EST From: Slipold@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: INS/MV vs IN >>Of course, I understand why SJG didn't merely translate INS/MV in its >>entirety (sp?) - because American sensiblity might not be able to handle >>the take on religious beliefs that the French game has. Now my curiosity has been piqued. What's so bad about the French game? Come on! Offend my delicate sensibilities, damn you! While I'm glad you're respecting the intellectual property rights of the French publisher, I wish you didn't have to gloat about it to all us non- Francophones, (no offense). That being said, can anyone give me a quick summation about what in the name of Hell is so wicked about the original French game that that us feeble-minded Americans simply wouldn't be able to cope? I want my mind blown, and I want it blown now!! Steve ___________ "We went through six Adams before we figured that one out..." --The Metatron, "Dogma" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:46:26 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: Re: IN> Re: INS/MV vs IN - -----Original Message----- From: Slipold@aol.com To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 7:15 PM Subject: IN> Re: INS/MV vs IN > >>>Of course, I understand why SJG didn't merely translate INS/MV in its >>>entirety (sp?) - because American sensiblity might not be able to handle >>>the take on religious beliefs that the French game has. > >Now my curiosity has been piqued. What's so bad about the French game? Come >on! Offend my delicate sensibilities, damn you! While I'm glad you're >respecting the intellectual property rights of the French publisher, I wish >you didn't have to gloat about it to all us non- Francophones, (no offense). >That being said, can anyone give me a quick summation about what in the name >of Hell is so wicked about the original French game that that us >feeble-minded Americans simply wouldn't be able to cope? I want my mind >blown, and I want it blown now!! Well, I don't own a copy of the book, but I've browsed it enough time in the local stores to know it. (I live in Quebec, where french books are available) The first issue about INS/MV is almost entirely Catholic-Centric (Not surprising, since France is Almost entirely Catholic), with nearly ALL other religions considered enemies of Heaven or at least Renegades. The Angels who helped found Islam, for exemple, are considered to be Outcasts, and not a real part of Heaven's crew. Next to that is the fact that, all things considered, in INS/MV, it's often difficult to tell the difference between the two sides. On the side of the Angels, for exemple, there's Georges, Archangel of Purification (Who makes Uriel look merciful) and an Archangel of The Inquisition (complete with a Torture power). And on the side of the Demons, there are the Princes of Shal-Mari, who're positivly benigne compared to their IN counterparts. There's even a Prince of the Arts, who basically serves as Lucifer's personal artist, outside of trying to make the lives of Artists as painful as possible. Overall, I've never liked the tone of INS/MV. Angels and Demons, in that game, are essentially mirrors of one another, only with a different set of bosses, and come off as no more then Humans with special powers. 70% of all the Superiors weren't even Angels/Demons when they first started out. Can you believe Michael was supposed to have been a Viking Warlord in the 400s? I've gotten so used to thinking of Michael as "The Firstborn Warrior", that I can't even accept INS/MV's "Cannon" setting anymore. Steve Jackson's In Nomine may not be the original game, but in my opinion, it's the game done right: A well defined background, a cosmic tone, a sense of grandeur, characters which are clearly something else then human... It's what a game of Angels and Demons should be like. That's my opinion, at least. - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:04:55 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Re: INS/MV vs IN > Steve Jackson's In Nomine may not be the original game, but in my opinion, > it's the game done right: A well defined background, a cosmic tone, a sense > of grandeur, characters which are clearly something else then human... It's > what a game of Angels and Demons should be like. I gotta side with this. I like In Nomine because it feels like you're playing an angel or a demon, rather than someone's sarcastic teenaged angsty wet dream. Er, ;-) On the other hand, if you enjoy games with a more satirical edge, it's *very* easy to tweak In Nomine to make it darker with lower contrast. > That's my opinion, at least. > > -Exit the LoneWolf Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:18:21 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner-Thornber Subject: Re: IN> Re: INS/MV vs IN > I like In Nomine because it feels like you're > playing an angel or a demon, rather than someone's sarcastic teenaged angsty > wet dream. Er, ;-) Hey! Some of us PLAYED that sarcastic teenaged angsty wet dream! :) - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner-Thornber -- http://www.nodonut.com/zenith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:24:45 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: Re: IN> AD&D and In Nomine - -----Original Message----- From: Charles Phipps To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 5:05 PM Subject: IN> AD&D and In Nomine >I like it ALOT however you forgot this. Thanks for the comment, and for the suggestions. >Eli looked at Uriel and asked him what he should make the race of man like. > >Uriel said that mankind should have the power to melt the very stones of the >earth and purify all with their powerful strength and ancient wisdom. > >Gabriel took notice and decided to help. > >Eli discovered the result was very similar to the Seraphim and created the >Dragons. I like the idea of Uriel and gabriel collaborating on the Dragons, but those don't really come off as a race of Humans. Maybe they could be left-overs of the Age of Dinosaurs, which Eli decided to strengthen and preserve (Hence the Dragon's Fire, intended to counteract the Ice-Age's cold) >Eli talked to Jordi who said mankind should be animals and many types to >achieve union with gods creation... > >thus centaurs, mermaids, sphinxes, and other creatures came about I agree on the Centaurs and other beast-men races, but the Mermaids sound more like Oannes' idea of Humanity. With maybe Vephar suggesting the Sahuagin, and later corrupting them when he fell. Chuckg, I'm also aware that Halfings don't come off as wanderers unless you're using the 3e versions. But I had no idea which celestial would inspire the creation of the Hobbits. And the wandering Halflings do seem like something Janus would love, and their rogueish tendancies hint at Janus' "Secret Identity" liking them too. BTW, how's this for D&D Deity write-ups of Laurence and Saminga? Laurence The Archangel of the Sword, Laurence is Lawful Good. His titles are Commander of Heaven's Host, Champion of Good and The Honorable Warlord. Laurence, along with leading Heaven's armies into battle, promotes justice, valor, chivalry and honor. The domains he is associated with are Good, Law, War and Protection. His favored weapon is the Longsword, and he is worshipped by paladins, good fighters, and good monks. His archenemies are Baal, Demon Prince of The War and Saminga, Demon Prince of Death. Saminga The Demon Prince of Death, Saminga, is Neutral Evil. He is known as the Dark Reaper, the Walking Death and the King of Necromancers. He ultimatly seeks to end all life on Earth, and patronizes all Mortals who work to slay other humans, and is the creator and protector of all Undead. The Domains he is associated with are Death, Magic, Evil and War. His worshippers, who include undead, evil necromancers, rogues and assassins, often depict him as a gaunt, lich-like cloaked figure armed with a long scythe, his favored weapon. - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:25:52 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: The Djinn Mindset (Re: IN> Demonic Mindset) - -----Original Message----- From: Charles Phipps To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 4:57 PM Subject: IN> Demonic Mindset >Djinn: You are a creature who effectively does not care about anything but >has an unconcious need to be adored and fawned upon like a Cherub does to >his human (usually). I have an alternate view of the Djinn Mindset. Basically, they couldn't care less if they're adored or fawned upon, or even noticed. Think Beleth wants Blandine to love her again? Think Asmodeus gives a flying frag whether or not he's loved by anyone? Here's what I think: If you love someone, set it free. That's something that Cherubim live for. They love whomever they're attuned to, so aside from keeping them safe, they don't mess with their lives. But eventually, that someone leaves the Cherubim, who feels the loss. Djinn don't want to feel that sense of loss. They don't want to set their attuned free. They don't want to care for their attuned, they want to OWN their attuned, lock, stock and barrel. That's why Beleth keeps trying to get Blandine's goat. She's still attuned to the Archangel of Dreams, and she wants her fallen and enslaved to her. That's why Asmodeus works so hard to enforce the Game: It's HIS game, and everyone's gonna play by HIS rules. That's why Fleurity wants to push his drugs on everyone. He wants to own their minds, and Drugs are his tools. A Djinn couldn't care less if you love him or hate him. As long as you belong to him. - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:39:26 -0800 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> AD&D and In Nomine From: "Rolland Therrien" <> Now, I don't remember if you're one of the people who's changed Saminga so that he has a brain, but if you're using the "default" Saminga, I'd say he should be Chaotic Evil, definitely. He doesn't plan, go out of his way to make alliances, or generally think about anything other than violent killing--he epitomizes the derogatory stereotype of Chaotic Evil. --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:13:40 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Mindset - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Phipps" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: IN> Demonic Mindset [snip demons] > Even at their essential nature they are sociopaths from "birth" or > transformation. So? Nothing keeps a sociopath from being an effective social infiltrator that can go for years and years with people loving him, trusting him, and thinking that he's a great guy -- if he's got enough smarts and charisma. Ted Bundy comes to mind, but he's hardly the only one. (Or for the fictional example, Dr. Hannibal Lecter.) - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:18:09 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: The Djinn Mindset (Re: IN> Demonic Mindset) On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Rolland Therrien wrote: > That's why Fleurity wants to push his drugs on everyone. He wants to own > their minds, and Drugs are his tools. Fleurity's a Habbalite. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Punctuality, regularity, discipline, industry, thoroughness, are a set of slave virtues." -- G. D. H. Cole ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:46:25 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Re: INS/MV vs IN - --On Tuesday, February 27, 2001 20:18 -0500 Emily Dresner-Thornber wrote: > >> I like In Nomine because it feels like you're >> playing an angel or a demon, rather than someone's sarcastic >> teenaged angsty wet dream. Er, ;-) > > > Hey! Some of us PLAYED that sarcastic teenaged angsty wet > dream! :) > How's that scream therapy working out, anyway? Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2084 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.