From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Mar 13 00:06:56 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA19762 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:06:56 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id AAA31532 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:12:02 -0600 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:12:02 -0600 Message-Id: <200103130612.AAA31532@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2104 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, March 13 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2104 In this digest: Re: IN> Playing With Lightning, Part II Re: IN> IN Tarot IN> Oannes? Re: IN> IN Tarot Re: IN> IN Tarot Re: IN> IN Tarot Re: IN> IN Tarot IN> Re: IN Tarot Re: IN> March 10, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot Re: IN> IN Tarot Re: IN> Name Roots etc. Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot Re: IN> IN Tarot Re: IN> IN Tarot Re: IN> Cleaning out the Unfinished Stuff Directory Re: IN> Cleaning out the Unfinished Stuff Directory Re: IN> Cleaning out the Unfinished Stuff Directory Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot Re: IN> IN Tarot ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:11:38 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Playing With Lightning, Part II - --On Sunday, March 11, 2001 10:09 PM -0800 Maurice Lane wrote: > Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:45:19 -0500From: Earl > Wajenberg > Subject: Re: IN> Playing With Lightning, Part II > Maurice Lane wrote: >>> Computer >>> These things are also in hot demand, partially >>> because you can take them anywhere. The computer >>> usually looks like a standard-size towel: >> Surely it includes an on-line library with DON'T >> PANIC written in large friendly letters on the >> opening page? > > Only if Jean has a secret obsession with in-jokes. > > (pause) > > Which, now that I think of it, makes perfect sense in > a Bright low-contrast campaign. Hmmm... Jean, > Archangel of Geeks - or would that be Vapula? > > For some reason, Dexter's Lab seems to be popping into > my head now. > Get yourself a quality tinfoil hat-liner and that'll probably stop. Probably. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("It's when the voices in your head start chanting that you're really in trouble.") ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 06:16:54 -0800 (PST) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> IN Tarot > However, Michael does not work as Strength. Strength represents the combine > natures of man (lion) and woman (woman). I also think that the woman is > supposed to represent the peaceful side of the psyche, waring with the > violent side. Strength: Novalis prying open the jaws of Cerebrus. (Close inspection of the creature's heads shows a slight resemblance to Baal, Belial, and Michael, respectively.) Owen ===== "...An' then... then I'm gonna get *medieval* on his arse." "How, exactly?" "I thought maybe a maypole," said Mr. Tulip reflectively, "An' then a display of country dancing, land tillage under the three-field system, several plagues, and if my --ing hand ain't too tired, the invention of the --ing horse collar." -- Terry Pratchett, The Truth __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:33:27 -0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> Oannes? I was watching the clouds today, looking at all the shapes. Then =WHAMMO= inspiration hit me with a mallet. It hurt, but it was worth it. Attunement for former servents of Oannes, re-emurging in the wind camp. Cloud Pictures/Wall of fog Cost- as per normal. Essence cost: 3 Duration: Ethereal forces X CD Hours Restrictions: Kyriotates of wind and Oannes _ONLY_ Effect: This very old attunement, (only available to Kyriotates), Allows the charecter to appear in the corporeal realm as a cloud or bank of fog/mist. The Minimum size they are able to be is corporeal forces in square feet, the max size is total forces times ethereal forces in square feet X 10. This form lasts for a set time before the kyriotate either uses the song again or is forced to take a host. One thing to note is that when in the form of a cloud, no one can see the same shape, similar shapes yes, but no two people will see the crocodile, one might see a ufo shape, another would see a jelly mould shape. Also, no daemon has ever learned this song, when an angel has fallen the song is some how destroyed from memory. Well, there you go. I think it all is about right. Cass - -There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole- Murphy's Law, Combatants Edition. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:35:00 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> IN Tarot At 7:50 AM -0500 3/12/01, damienw@juno.com wrote: >The Tower... I would have a split-image, with Blandine and Beleth's >Towers >as each half, forming one "tower". I think we should be concentrating on traditional tarot imagry if we're going to make this an effective Tarot. The Tower isn't simply a tower, it's a tower destroyed by a flash of lightning, evocotive of the Tower of Babel. So, I think Jean is the obvious choice here, with lightning bringing down works humanity is not capable of handling (which is as good an explanation of Babel as anything.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:45:44 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> IN Tarot Wasn't there originally only one tower in the Marches which split into two when Beleth fell? The splitting off could be the card, with a little thunder and lightning to spruce it up. >From: Whistling in the Dark >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >CC: damienw@juno.com >Subject: Re: IN> IN Tarot >Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:35:00 -0500 > >I think we should be concentrating on traditional tarot imagry if >we're going to make this an effective Tarot. The Tower isn't simply a >tower, it's a tower destroyed by a flash of lightning, evocotive of >the Tower of Babel. So, I think Jean is the obvious choice here, with >lightning bringing down works humanity is not capable of handling >(which is as good an explanation of Babel as anything.) >-- >Eric Alfred Burns - > >Habbalite of Belaboring the Point _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:06:47 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> IN Tarot At 7:45 AM -0800 3/12/01, Bevan Thomas wrote: >Wasn't there originally only one tower in the Marches which split >into two when Beleth fell? The splitting off could be the card, with >a little thunder and lightning to spruce it up. Not really, no. There was one tower that was destroyed in the War. Beleth and Blandine then built their current towers in opposition to one another. It's an acceptable image -- the destruction of the original Tower. I still prefer the idea of the flash of lightning destroying the Tower of Hubris and man's overreaching as metaphor for Jean's modus operendai, but unless someone's actually doing the artwork my opinions don't matter beyond my own (considerable) ego. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:13:04 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> IN Tarot I would recommend Gabriel as Strength, mainly because the name "Gabriel" means "Strength of God." Also, the traditional (or at least Rider-Waite) trump shows a woman easily clamping shut the mouth of a lion, and Gabriel in IN usually takes female form these days. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:18:46 -0500 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: IN> Re: IN Tarot Looking at the Minor Arcana: The only problem would be Laurence getting an entire suit of his own. That could be a little strange. Or, I suppose you could make the Swords the equivilent of the military factions of both Heaven and Hell (the wands, then being their opposite in the Peace faction). Any ideas for cups or pentacles? I was playing with the idea of having them symbolize the more religious or theologically minded angels (cups) and then those concerned mostly with power (pentacles), but the symbology doesn't really work that well. Thoughts? Later. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:29:02 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> March 10, 2001 (ML) Moe! This is *lovely.* I wanted to cry. Then I wanted to laugh (and did) at the Seneschal's habit of occasionally swearing "by Zeus." I bet David smacks him if he hears him ... Some of your treatments of saints and their days have, to be honest, struck me as somewhat, well, perhaps mean-spirited is too strong a word. This makes up for everything. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:31:18 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot At 12:18 PM -0500 3/12/01, Jonathan Walton wrote: >Looking at the Minor Arcana: > >The only problem would be Laurence getting an entire suit of his own. He wouldn't. Swords would be divided up between Laurence and Baal. Pentacles would be Marc and Mammon's little war. Cups would... hm. I could see a Novalis/Lilith pairing. Wands could concievably be Michael and someone -- perhaps Belial. Or even Andrealphus, depending.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:15:09 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot - -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Walton To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Monday, March 12, 2001 12:22 PM Subject: IN> Re: IN Tarot <> I think we can get around the problem by not having the Minor Arcana link to Angels, but to Events or Themes. Instead of having a Suit of Swords, for exemple, we could have a Suit of Battles, with each card depicting some conflicts between Angels and Demons, with the Jacks, Queens and Kings being Minor Superiors, such as Zadkiel or Magog. The Suit of Wands could be replaced by the Suit of Pens, the tools of Destiny and Fate, and would have scenes with Celestials, Ethereals and Mortals meeting their Destinies or Fates. Cups generally symbolize water, a realm of secrets and magic. While keeping the original name, we can make this suit into the suit of In Nomine's secrets and magics, with scenes featuring the Marches, mysterious superiors and Mortal Sorcerors. Finally, the Coins or Pentacles symbolize The Greatest Superiors, God and Lucifer themselves. Scenes of these Cards would present Divine or Infernal Interventions, and how they affect the world. When Divine, the Pentacle would have the star pointing up, and when Infernal, the star would point down. What do you think of this suggestion? - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:34:26 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> IN Tarot >Just an idea I had after checking out Pyramid Magazine's "Gurps Dramatic >Card Play" article, and thought about Ken Hite's "Supressed Transmission" >Tarot series, and I started to wonder: Wouldn't it be cool if there was an >In Nomine Tarot? IMHO, No. And I'll tell you why. In Nomine is about black/white, light darkness, good and evil. It operates upon a dualistic foundation. The Tarot does not. To try and mangle the Tarot to fit into In Nomine would destroy the Tarot. The /only/ why I can see doing this would be to reflect the in nomine dualistic nature in the cards "reversed" positions, and even then . . . it doesn't work nicely at all. >Here are some of the card ideas I had: >0-The Fool: Eli, in hobo's clothing, wandering around and looking up to >Heaven, not noticing the dog-like Djinn pacing behind him, nor the ravine >leading into a firepit opening in front of him. Reversed: Carelessness is present here, one is not taking the current situation seriously enough. >1-The Magician: Yves sitting at his desk, holding up a wand-like >paintbrush, >which he just dipped into an ink-filled cup (Strangely resembling the Holy >Grail), It's NOT strange, it's purposely done that way in the Rider-Waite deck. and preparing to write into an open book with a right-side up >Pentacle on the cover, a sword-shaped letter opener laying in front of the >book on the desk. Reversed: The misuse of individual power for egocentric control over the situation. Possibly the use of manipulation or deceit to get what you want. Kronos, I suppose would be the reversal. If Magician represents creativity in action, why not Eli? Perhaps his servitors. >2-The High Priestess: Novalis, sitting in the middle of her beloved Garden, >on what looks like a throne of living wood and vines, smiling warmly to the >watcher as her Angels laugh and sing around her. This should be Blandine if anything, since its associated with the Moon, the revelation of hidden mysteries and the unfolding of deeper emotions. Reversed: Querent surrounded by unclear thinking in the situation. Nightmares, I'd say. >3-The Emperess: Blandine, standing on her balcony, the bright scene of >Heaven seen from one side of the tower, the mist-filled valley of the >Marches on the other. Now THIS is Novalis. Corresponds with Venus => Love, and represents Relating, the opposite of Malphus. Reversed: the loss of personal power through placing too much emphasis on another person's needs. So, /too much/ selflessness. >4-The Emperor: Laurence in full military regalia, standing in attention in >front of the Halls of Worship, his sword in hand, ready to defend Heaven. >Two Wolf-like Cherubs kneel at his feet, looking west and east. Reversed: Over-expansion and misuse of personal energy, something is being attempted that can only be achieved through use of excessive force. 5-The Heirophant (or The Pope): The Saint. This is the earthly manifestation of heavenly power, bringing the hidden message of heaven to earth. Reversed: imprisonment in one's own religion or belief system. The Fallen Kalid? >6-The Lovers: Andrealphus laying on a bed of fine silk cushions, watching a >man and two women writhing in an embrace of pleasure and debauchery. Doesn't work. The Lovers is about the union of opposites, the cooperation and coming together of two forces. Reversed: Malphus, challenges in relationships arising from lack of proper communcation. >7-The Chariot: Janus, flying about on a whirlwind-shaped cloud, holding up >a >flaming sword, a wide grin on his face. Reversed: Conflicts and problems arising from conflicting aims, coming either from within the Querent or from and another party. >8-Strength: Michael, wrestling a large Djinn, holding open it's gaping maw >and raising his other hand, holding a dagger in it as he intends to empale >the demon on it. Not too sure about this. The lady is controlling the wild beast through the power of her love and compassion, not physical force. The use of spirit to control animal passions. Reversed: failure and personal weakness. Abuse of personal power. >9-The Hermit: Kronos, walking through his darkened archives, holding a red >lantern in one hand and a black leathery book in the other. Ah, no. The Hermit speaks of inner contemplation which brings about awareness guided by our Inner Guidance (the Symphony perhaps). He uses and offers the light to guide himself. Reversed: Someone using escapism to avoid reality. Nybbas. >10-The Wheel of Fortune: Nybbas, standing in front of a dark looking wheel, >titled "Wheel of Agony", with a wide variety of tortures described on it. >He holds a Damned Soul in front of it, and holds his arm up to the wheel, >ready to make him spin for the audiance watching at home, as we see the >whole scene through a television screen. Ruled by Jupiter, this is the card of chance. I'd call it: Intervention. An unexpected course of events. Reversed: Extreme bad luck (intervention from the other side) >11-Justice: Dominic, standing in front of his Cathedral, holding different >books and scrolls of law in one hand, and a scale in the other, holding the >image of Angels on one plate, and Demons on the other. You can see him >frown as he looks at the Balance, which seems to lean more towards the >Demonic side. Reversed: prejudice, bias, and the abuse of justice: Asmodeus. >12-The Hanged Man: Valefor, smiling even as he's being hung upside down >over >a vat of molten lava by a troop of Demons of The Game. He's already undone >the chains binding his arms and freed his left leg, crossing it in a >reversed 4 behind his four leg, a blade stricking out from the toe. His >wild grin seems to resemble Janus' own. No. Jesus the Christ (or Rapheal for those of you too scared to speak of Jesus). This card denotes Sacrifice. The querent must be ready to sacrifice something in order to achieve something greater. Reversed: Selfishness, the person may be putting up the appearance of willing sacrifice, but isn't really ready to give up anything at all. (Legion?) >13-Death: Saminga as a towering lich, dressed in long black robes, holding >up a dark scythe with a silver blade, his eyes glowing with a dark green >glow. He walks through Sheol, amongst the forests of empaled victims and >fields of half-buried dead. NO. 13-Death is about transformation through ending and rebirth. Saminga is about undead and death forever and is /wholly/ inappropriate. I would say that the card should be symbolic of achieving neither fate nor destiny, and being recycled to live once more on earth to try again. Reincarnation. Reversed: The querent is not releasing, s/he is holding on to a destructive pattern of desire. Now that's Saminga. 14- Temperance: David Self-control. Reversed: conditions are hindering one achievement of a goal; lack of patience may cause the person to make poor decisions. 15- The Devil: The Devil no changes/mods 16- The Tower: Micheal The destruction of what was allowing us to remain complacent and without growth. Reversed: the same, though less devastating 17- The Star: Litheroy Revelation and meditation. Litheroy pours water onto the land and pool, allowing humanity to drink from the well of never ending awareness. This is a card of peace and healing after the previous two cards. Reversed: disappointment and frustration following false aspiration and self-deceit. Personal direction is in doubt and vision is unclear. 18- The Moon: the newly awakened Soldier Psychic awareness, danger. Spiritual insight is at an elemental stage, do not let disturbances (or demonic symphonies) overtake your personal perception of the Symphony. One will be lead to the truth, but the mountain has yet to be climbed. Reversed: instabilities and deceptions aren't as threatening as they appear 19- The Sun: Destiny Fullfillment. One has achieved great things and with much of the work done, one emerges as a child (as one must be as a child in order to enter the kingdom of heaven), full of the radiance of Destiny and heaven's greatest gift. Reversed: this is never a negative card, the reversed position indicates only that the situation is less wonderful that when the card is upright. 20- Judgement: Gabriel The AA Gabriel blows his/her horn, bringing forththe once dead, reaching into dead matter and bringing it back to life. Reversed: the querent is indulging himself in doubt and self-judgement, and is causing himself to miss opportunities that await. 21- The World: The Symphony no real changes needed - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:25:59 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Name Roots etc. EDG wrote: > (Interesting factoid: look up "Who was King Nebuchadnezzar?" on > www.ask.com (I don't have my Bible handy, and don't remember > details) and the first response you'll get is "How do I choose a > wine glass?".) Probably because a "nebuchadnezzar" is the name for the largest size of champagne bottle. I'm not sure, by the way, that the taunt is directed at Nebuchadnezzar. The text just says "the king of Babylon," and I (at least) don't know the probable date of the verses. It *sounds* wonderful, in King James English, and with just a little bit of metaphorizing, makes a great capsule summary of the tale of pride, rebellion, and fall, even if that wasn't what it was meant for. Here it is: "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! [...] "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. "All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High. "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." - -- Isaiah 14 Other translations give "shining one" or "morning star" in place of "Lucifer." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:08:35 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot ><I think we can get around the problem by not having the Minor Arcana link >to >Angels, but to Events or Themes. >What do you think of this suggestion? > >-Exit the LoneWolf I think that you're ignoring the underlying symbology of the Tarot and its usefullness; you're trying to cram the Tarot into In Nomine, rather than discovering how In Nomine can be reflected in the Tarot. Basic associations of the Minor Arcana : Swords: Air, Mind, Nobility (Spades) Cups: Water, Emotions, Clergy (Hearts) Wands: Fire, Creativity, Artisans (Clubs) Pentacles: Earth, Physical, Farmers (Diamonds) May that help guide you. I'd recommend the Pocket Guide to the Tarot by Alan Oken (published by The Cross Press Pocket Series), should be only about $7 at your local bookstore (that carries "occult" what-not), and is a very useful source of Tarot info. If, on the other hand, you care for nothing except creating a Tarot-like thing, thus breaking the Tarot by trying to In Nomine into it, be my guest. But, I'd suggest actually actually studying the Tarot at least semi-seriously before doing too much. The parallel that comes to mind is like trying to convert In Nomine into another game system without bothering to learn the mechanics of the other game system. It won't be very easy to play afterwards. Of course, just making a deck of cards with AAs and DPs might be more what you're interested in, since the Tarot has a preexisting structure which you seem to be ignoring anyway. (A deeper structure of symbolism and meaning, including numerology, astrology, and biblical structure and references, such as the blatant presence of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in 21-The World and 10-Wheel of Fortune.) Both In Nomine can the Tarot can be used to represent reality (In Nomine is a Role-playing game, after all), so this should work once you can find a way to get around In Nomine's fundamentally dualistic nature contrasting with the Tarot's significant lack of such a thing. You may find Alister Crowley's deck much more suitable to your needs. It's rumored that he did a fair amount of dark rituals later into his career, and his desk is MUCH darker than others (and therefore has much more room for Hell), though it lacks much of the symbolism of the Rider-Waite deck, especially in the minor arcana. useful links found here: http://newage.about.com/religion/newage/cs/tarotinterpret/index.htm?iam=dpile&terms=%2BTarot+%2Bexplained But an entire book and some study would better your attempts much more. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:38:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot I'd get around the dualism by having two decks, or at least two sets of Major Arcana, one for each side. Simply having the Superiors as the Major Arcana isn't that bad an idea. It would have Amber resonnances, for folk who like that, and, after all, if IN's Superiors are supposed to be "the truth" behind the garbling traditional folklore, then the "true" Tarot would have different Majors. An interesting history of the Tarot can be found at: http://www.geocities.com/cosmicbaseball/97rtr.html Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:07:18 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot At 2:38 PM -0500 3/12/01, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >I'd get around the dualism by having two decks, or at least >two sets of Major Arcana, one for each side. > >Simply having the Superiors as the Major Arcana isn't that >bad an idea. It would have Amber resonnances, for folk who >like that, and, after all, if IN's Superiors are supposed to >be "the truth" behind the garbling traditional folklore, then >the "true" Tarot would have different Majors. Mmmm... but Amber Trumps != the Tarot.... I'm in Perry's camp. Using In Nomine imagry to develop a Tarot could be a lot of fun and insightful. But changing what the Tarot is to shoehorn in In Nomine defeats the purpose of using the Tarot in the first place, unless you're doing something like a satire. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:37:12 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot - -----Original Message----- From: Whistling in the Dark To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Cc: Earl Wajenberg Date: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:18 PM Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot >At 2:38 PM -0500 3/12/01, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >>I'd get around the dualism by having two decks, or at least >>two sets of Major Arcana, one for each side. >> >>Simply having the Superiors as the Major Arcana isn't that >>bad an idea. It would have Amber resonnances, for folk who >>like that, and, after all, if IN's Superiors are supposed to >>be "the truth" behind the garbling traditional folklore, then >>the "true" Tarot would have different Majors. > >Mmmm... but Amber Trumps != the Tarot.... > >I'm in Perry's camp. Using In Nomine imagry to develop a Tarot could >be a lot of fun and insightful. But changing what the Tarot is to >shoehorn in In Nomine defeats the purpose of using the Tarot in the >first place, unless you're doing something like a satire. In retrospect, I must agree with both you and Perry. The idea for an In Nomine Tarot came to me after I read Ken Hite's "Supressed Transmission Tarot" series of Articles, and I got to wonder how the Tarot could reflect the world of In Nomine. But after reading Perry's explanation of the Tarot, I realize I was somewhat off the mark. - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:01:25 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner-Thornber Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot > I'm in Perry's camp. Using In Nomine imagry to develop a Tarot could > be a lot of fun and insightful. But changing what the Tarot is to > shoehorn in In Nomine defeats the purpose of using the Tarot in the > first place, unless you're doing something like a satire. Yes, but that has never stopped anyone before -- and certainly not SJG and their, uh, "deck." There are some great decks over at http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot, including a B5 tarot, a Hello Kitty tarot, a Rock and Roll tarot (Elvis as the Emperor!), and a Stick Figure tarot. So, you know, what the heck, and let people have their fun with an IN Major Arcana. The first rule of wielding a tarot deck is to take it about as seriously as, well, wielding a tarot deck. C'mon, you can't read off a GAMING deck anyway. :) - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner-Thornber -- http://www.nodonut.com/zenith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:27:29 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot I think better than an IN tarot would be an entirely different sort of deck. Something along the lines of Kronos's personal tools of divination or something. It would be squarely built on the IN split between divine/infernal, as well as corporeal/ethereal/celestial. - -- Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus If you have time to kill, why not kill it at http://ucsub.Colorado.edu/~grothtp/In.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:30:22 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN Tarot At 6:16 AM -0800 3/12/01, O. S. Kerr wrote: >> However, Michael does not work as Strength. Strength represents the combine >> natures of man (lion) and woman (woman). I also think that the woman is >> supposed to represent the peaceful side of the psyche, waring with the >> violent side. > >Strength: >Novalis prying open the jaws of Cerebrus. _My_ Tarot cards generally have the lion's mouth being gently held _shut_ by the woman... (Well, except for the Black Tarot and the Cat People Tarot.) - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:40:34 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN Tarot At 6:34 PM -0500 3/12/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>0-The Fool: Eli, in hobo's clothing, [...] > >Reversed: Carelessness is present here, one is not taking the current >situation seriously enough. Perhaps, for most amusing effect, that should be done like a "Jack of X" normal card -- with Kobal as the "reverse." >>1-The Magician: Yves sitting at his desk,[...] > >Reversed: [...] > Kronos, I suppose would be the reversal. Mirror-image, indeed. (So long as this doesn't turn into an undead thread, I'm being cool with it. I own the Cat People deck, and the Black Tarot is just an excuse for the artist to reprint a bunch of scantily clad wenches and demons and doesn't even _have_ art for the Minor Arcana (save the "aces"), to which I say feh. Heck, I own the Unicorn deck, and that was a scam and a half; the only good art was the one on the cover. O:p Near as I can tell, the Tarot can be pretty flexible, though one should try to incorporate _some_ symbolism into it; this is why I like my Robin Wood deck and Mary Hanson-Roberts deck more than the Black deck. The Cat People deck has some nice parallels too, and incorporates other symbolism from the universe to add to it.) - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:28:15 -0500 From: "Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Cleaning out the Unfinished Stuff Directory > B: Servitors of Litheroy. I mean, if you're a demon, it is so totally in > your best interests to find a Servitor of Litheroy (preferably someone like > a Cherub or Ofanite, who isn't likely to figure things out if you have a > high enough Lying skill), and cultivate it for a friend. It will then Tell > You Anything You Ask, because Revelation is like that. This reminds me. I know new In Nomine suppliments are on haitus, but I'm curious what Superiors people looking forward to seeing expanded writups on. Myself, it's Litheroy (to counter the expanded Alaemon writeup; Secrets is a scary word) and Marc (in my opinion, the most underappreciated Archangel). On the demonic side of things, my preferences range into the realm of pipe dream: I'd love to see info on the dead Demon Princes like Oblivion, Sloth, and Rapine. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:26:15 -0800 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> Cleaning out the Unfinished Stuff Directory From: "Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki" <> Eli and Novalis, primarily, though I'm interested in all of them--at least all the major ones. --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 03:54:55 -0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> Cleaning out the Unfinished Stuff Directory I'd have thought that eli would have been one of the first one to be published, seeing as there is so much that can be done with him, look at all the theories that have been thown up in the list. As for a slightly OT item, the Mage Tarot set is great, some of the art is by smiff who im sure you know, does much of the IN art work. we've (my group) have used that in games and its wonderfully illustrated and ideal for IN aswell because of the art in it. Cass - -There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole- Murphy's Law, Combatants Edition. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 05:13:29 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot >I'd get around the dualism by having two decks, or at least >two sets of Major Arcana, one for each side. I was considering that myself, and it would make sense, really. The traditional Tarot speaks a lot of "unity with higher self" like resonanting with the Symphony. Why not one for Personal, Selfish, Symphonies. >Simply having the Superiors as the Major Arcana isn't that >bad an idea. It would have Amber resonnances, for folk who >like that, and, after all, if IN's Superiors are supposed to >be "the truth" behind the garbling traditional folklore, then >the "true" Tarot would have different Majors. > >An interesting history of the Tarot can be found at: > > http://www.geocities.com/cosmicbaseball/97rtr.html Yeeouch! painful to look at, but pretty cool. thnx for the heads up - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 05:32:07 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot >The first rule of wielding a tarot deck is to take it about as >seriously as, well, wielding a tarot deck. C'mon, you can't read >off a GAMING deck anyway. :) > >----------------------------------------------------------------- >Emily K. Dresner-Thornber -- http://www.nodonut.com/zenith Though an arguement could be made that the deck is merely the tool, a focus as it were. If one can use bones or tea leaves, why not a gaming deck? (Well, I could tell why NOT to use a Parker Brothers ouji board - those things are tainted with *something* nasty) Then again, if you don't believe that sort of thing, it probably doesn't matter. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 05:35:48 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN Tarot >I think better than an IN tarot would be an entirely different sort >of deck. Something along the lines of Kronos's personal tools of >divination or something. It would be squarely built on the IN split >between divine/infernal, as well as corporeal/ethereal/celestial. >-- Has anyone got a copy of an Angels tarot deck? I think there's an Angels divination tool that set up differently from the Tarot. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:05:57 -0800 (PST) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> IN Tarot > I think we should be concentrating on traditional tarot imagry if > we're going to make this an effective Tarot. The Tower isn't simply a > tower, it's a tower destroyed by a flash of lightning, evocotive of > the Tower of Babel. So, I think Jean is the obvious choice here, with > lightning bringing down works humanity is not capable of handling > (which is as good an explanation of Babel as anything.) But the point of The Tower as a card is a catastrophic change. The Fall of Beleth, and the continuing rift between the First Lovers, are both good candidates for this kind of image. I like the half-and-half towers idea... And this is also a good idea for the Lovers... pre-Fall Blandine and Beleth. Owen __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2104 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.