From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Mar 16 20:59:16 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA23854 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:59:16 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id VAA14817 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 21:04:42 -0600 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 21:04:42 -0600 Message-Id: <200103170304.VAA14817@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2109 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, March 16 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2109 In this digest: Re: IN> March 14, 2001 (ML) IN> Jordi Lite Re: IN> March 14, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> March 13, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> Oannes Writup Posted Re: IN> March 13, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> Add-on to Jordi comment Re: IN> March 14, 2001 (ML) IN> The Devil's Eyes IN> The Perfect mate IN> Vesselspace IN> The angel of Hawaiian shirts Re: IN> March 13, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> Jordi (was: What I want to see next) Re: IN> March 13, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> March 13, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> March 13, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> Add-on to Jordi comment Re: IN> March 13, 2001 (ML) [none] Re: IN> March 13, 2001 (ML) IN> Kyriotate Host Separation Re: IN> Vesselspace Re: IN> Jordi (was: What I want to see next) IN> Adventure Seed-The Ruins of Babel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:19:39 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> March 14, 2001 (ML) - --- "William J. Keith" wrote: > Flatland! Wow, I thought only us geeky math majors knew about > that book... I've actually read it, and I was a theatre geek. > And let's not forget the zero-dimensional God, either. :^) Which was interesting, but I'm still not sure about this Song. How much fun can it be to play a two-dimensional character? };;;> ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "When you have bought your own load of hooey, you know exactly what it is worth." -- Bruce Sterling __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:19:01 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Jordi Lite In the GM's Guide, there's a remark that, in a Christian-flavored campaign, Jordi would have to be lightened up a lot. I think lightening up Jordi would make him a lot more useable in a campaign of any (or no) denominational flavor. Here's a way to do it: Jordi, in canon, is massively disinterested in Heavenly politics. The other Archangels consider him crazy, and he is disgusted with Heaven's anthropocentrism. But he isn't really crazy, and he certainly isn't stupid. So, just as Gabriel has Soldekai to mind the shop, Jordi has three ministers to tend his Word: - Jehiel, Angel of Wild Animals, an Elohite - Behemial, Angel of Tame Animals, a Cherub - Mumiah, Angel of Health, a Mercurian (All three are taken from Davidson's "Dictionary of Angels.") These three are all very powerful Word-bound, just one grade below minor Superiors in power. Jordi is not really happy with any of them, but then that's inevitable; they are all there to handle the politics he despises, leaving him free to revel and brood over his Word, and plan for the time after Armageddon when he can start rebuilding the animal kingdom. Jehiel pushes Jordi's conservation agenda, but without the Archangel's ulcerating sense of frustration. Jehiel thinks in terms of ages and species and higher taxa. Jehiel works with Jean on projects like unto Jurassic Park. Jehiel remembers the Cretaceous extinctions, and knows that things aren't nearly that bad, yet; and nothing like as bad as the Permian extinctions. (Jehiel is very old.) Its favored vessel is a dragon -- an original, corporeal dragon, big as a horse, lean as a hound, no wings, no fire, but very bad spitting venom. It occasionally goes hunting the Marches for Tsayadim in this shape, and brings them (minus a few Forces) to its Archangel to ... play with. The Archangel is always more content, in a grim way, for quite a while afterward. Jordi feels Jehiel doesn't see how *awful* human civilization is, but what do you expect from an Elohite? Jehiel just counters with examples from terminte and wasp cultures. Behemiel pushes humane treatment of pets and livestock, of course, but she also orchestrates and inspires many of those incidents of valiant dogs, cats, horses, budgies, etc. that rescue their humans from burning buildings and assailants and dial 911. (Okay, the kung fu budgie was a little over the top, but hey.) That is, she has the animals serving the humans just as much as the other way around. Jordi feels very betrayed by this. On the other hand, getting the animals involved with humans this way has vastly increased the number of animals who acquire that scintilla of spiritual awareness that qualifies them for entry into Heaven, instead of disbandment or reincarnation or whatever it is that most often happens to animal souls. Jordi's Savannah would be much emptier without Behemiel's work. Behemiel's celestial form is that of a very large, golden-winged dog, like a golden St. Bernard. Mumiah is the one who has expanded the range of Jordi's Word the most. Just as Novalis took a Word about angiosperms and extended it to include peace and mercy, Mumiah has taken Animals and extended it to include health and fitness. Mumiah concerns himself almost entirely with humans, but does have an Angel of Vets working under him, and after all, his choir *are* the "Friends of Humanity." Mumiah runs a Heavenly school teaching the various Songs of Healing, and his angels work to help doctors, nurses, and health workers of all types. Mumiah cadges human vessels for his angels from other Archangels, in return for the healing work his folk do for the vessels and bodies of their angels, Saints, and Soldiers. If you want Jordi himself to be lighter, Jordi approves of all this as his Word's legitimate contribution to the human animal. Otherwise, Jordi would feel even more betrayed by Mumiah than he does by Behemial. Being a Kyrio, perhaps the Archangel feels both in different places. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:26:12 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> March 14, 2001 (ML) - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > [snip] if celestials and ethereals are > multidimensional creatures, one would expect them to be able > to see "through" (really "into") objects as well as move > "through" > (really "around") them, when in celestial form. One would > expect > them to be able to make material things vanish and reappear > with > trivial ease, and make mirror-flips as with the aforementioned > glove. > Balancing these additional powers for celestials, one would > expect a more rigid geography for the Celestial Plane, and > maybe the Ethereal Plane too. Not necessarily. Remember that we live in four dimensions -- the fourth is Time. The effects that you describe -- and the implications for Celestial and Ethereal geography -- can only occur if the extra dimensions are dimensions of Space (like adding X', Y' and Z' to X, Y and Z). Canon is clear on the Ethereal plane; any extra dimensions there are dimensions of Mind (yes, I watched way too much Twilight Zone as a child). As for the Celestial plane, those extra dimensions are likely to be dimensions of Spirit. Which may account for some of the cool powers that Celestials do have. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "When you have bought your own load of hooey, you know exactly what it is worth." -- Bruce Sterling __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:29:17 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> March 13, 2001 (ML) Michael Walton wrote: > No. Infant humans start out with 1 Force, !? That's just lame. I could see one of each, or even one celestial and one corporeal, but only one force per baby? What is it, corporeal? > but they're definitely not loose Forces. Oh, I dunno. They do a pretty good imitation. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:31:37 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Oannes Writup Posted Nice stuff. I especially like the Ofanite Attunement. Where's the Friend Distinction, though? ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "When you have bought your own load of hooey, you know exactly what it is worth." -- Bruce Sterling __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:43:52 -0500 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> March 13, 2001 (ML) > --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Where does one find "loose forces"? Tethers of Andraelphus are a good bet. Oops. Guess I misread the whole thing. -:-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:09:28 GMT From: daiv@cruzio.com Subject: Re: IN> Add-on to Jordi comment > Oh, I don't know. Kyrio of Animals would be really > useful in a city: there's always a roach or twenty > thousand around. The best part is, nobody goes > _looking_ for roaches: as long as the damn things stay > hidden, your average urban dweller is just as happy to > pretend to be ignorant. > Whoops! I forgot to add that the advantage was that > Kyrios of Animals get to possess _lots_ of roaches at > a time... A thought one this one... is there any constraint on how far spread out a Kyriotates Hosts can be? I am thinking that a couple of Kyrios of Jordi could pretty much cover the city of New York. Watching all of it... Or, just to be evil and devious... have a cockroach vessel in each of 81 different cities (a trick that is, perhaps, more useful for NPC critter-tates (well, what else do you call Kyriotates of Jordi (behind their backs, of couse...))) Correct me if I am wrong, but what one vessel sees, the whole Kyriotate knows? Add in some songs, you start getting really obscene, but useful effects. It all comes back to motvation for a crittertate to care about such things.... - -Daiv ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:20:14 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> March 14, 2001 (ML) >Balancing these additional powers for celestials, one would >expect a more rigid geography for the Celestial Plane, and maybe >the Ethereal Plane too. And the mathematically inclined GM can >amuse themselves for long periods working out the geometry and >geography of hyperspace, then applying it to the celestial side >of the game. > >Earl (Late addendum: Michael Walton's recent reply to this thread says the pith of what I say here, which I say in much greater and more technical detail. ;^) ) I've been thinking about time and distance on the celestial and ethereal planes. Now, it's largely GM fiat, since the answers depend on your interpretation of the nature of the planes, but I figure motion *must* be possible, and hence time and space exist in some fashion, because Ofanim don't become massively dissonant simply by existing there. There are philosophies that say even God must obey the rules of logic, so let's cover a couple of things: An "event" is an element of a set, the continuum you're in. In IN, there would be four continua, Earth, The Marches, Heaven & Hell, and Limbo. However, and here's the key notion for this discussion, elements don't have to be places. You can think of numbers as a continuum, for example. "Distance" is a function defined on events, with a few properties: the distance from an event to itself is 0, the distance between two distinct events is always positive, and the distance from A to B, plus the distance from B to C, is never less than the distance from A to C. "Time" is closely related to distance; it's a dimension, in a sense, but it has a preferred direction, given by causality. Some things happen before others. Hypothesizing causality in all continua, we have time existing in all continua. Moreover, hypothesizing causality *between* continua, we have time moving in the same direction in all continua. It could conceivably slow or speed up, but it would always be moving in the same direction. (*Not* hypothesizing causality in other realms just makes things too weird for me to deal with....) Finally, there's the shape of the space. When there's a distance function on a space, it defines a topology for that space, that is, how things look close up. The p-adic numbers, for instance (don't ask) have only isosceles and equilateral triangles, and no scalene... *shudder*. Bearing all this in mind, let's look at the continua of In Nomine. This is all my opinion, of course, not actual logical deduction. ;^) Earth is easy. The elements of which the continuum is made up are places in time; they have the standard distance function of normal space, time runs in its relativistic rates, and the topology is perfectly normal. There are three spatial dimensions, one time direction, and maybe some extra dimensions doing funky things which don't bother most of the world except M-brane physicists. In terms of Ofanim, just keep moving. In the Marches, says the book, time and distance are functions of thought; you can slow to molasses crawl, or cross countries in a blink. This sounds reasonable, if the events of which the ethereal realm is made up are thoughts themselves. There are the thoughts of humans, and the thoughts of angels and demons inhabiting the Marches at the moment; there are the thoughts of dreaming animals, and there are the spaces that no one seems to be in at the moment, with nothing particularly going on, which are, just perhaps, the thoughts of God. Time here is defined by the intensity of thought; mostly this magnitude is at human average, which is about the Earth-normal rate. However, it's always positive. Distance, on the other hand, is defined more along the lines of "emotional distance": "I feel we're growing apart," or "I'm so close to the answer, it's on the tip of my tongue." You're always at distance 0 from yourself, and positive distance from others -- even touching someone, you're as far apart as the inability to read their whole mind. If you feel a goal is unreachable, you might never get there no matter how much you trudge. Instead, the way to your goal is to think positively, to believe that what you seek is within your grasp. Need to find a dreamscape? Play "six degrees of separation," and (angelically) follow the closeness you feel to them, or (demonically) work at it until they're practically in the palm of your hand. In terms of Ofanim, just keep thinking -- Dissonance here would be to dull the mind to stillness, via perhaps boredom or stubbornness. (Dimensions? No dimensions here, boyo; that would assume the Marches were a vector space, which doesn't seem to hold water for me. So, dimensions are undefined here. Time isn't a dimension, merely the preferred ordering of your memories, which is why it can play tricks in the Far Marches -- it still runs, but as your mind shifts so does time seem to.) The next one we'll do is Limbo; it makes for a simple way to expound some notions that we'll use in H&H. The points of Limbo are soul-space; a "location" is a (naturally, infinitely-long) description of *you* as a being, which changes as you do. There's no dimension except time, which is the ordering of your experiences. Instead, distance in this space is defined in terms of growth and change as a being: "You've come a long way," or "Something's holding me back." An Ofanite *might* suffer Dissonance here, if he was clinging so hard to his old frame of thought that he refused to allow even Limbo to change him, struggling rather to dismiss his entire experience here. (Even patiently waiting it out counts as an experience, which is sufficient; trying to use the experience to learn would be moving even faster.) Here, time passes for you at the rate it was passing in your rest frame when you hit Limbo. So, for example, if an angel was moving at near-lightspeed compared to a local laboratory, and died sans Heart, one week for the angel in Limbo might be a long time back in the lab. (No, really. Vapula's done tests with demons with Absolute Chronolocation and acceleration to near-lightspeed in his labs. They're invariably messy, but do confirm that relativity works in Limbo.) So, Limbo is rather a combination of all three realms in some respects: there's Earthlike time, defined by Marches-like experience ordering, and made up of soul states... ...much like Heaven and Hell. The Celestial realm is all about the state of the soul. There are "higher" and "lower" states of being, as well as different "points" of view; these are the elements of the Celestial continuum, and some of the directions which make it up. Other preferred directions of growth or development can be defined by those who are so focused on that growth or development that they prefer it to all others; in short Superiors. In most cases, Superiors define a specific "geography," a structure on soul-states whose dimensions are up to them, in their portion of the realm, which is made up of those soul-states dominated by the modes of thought they prefer. Moving around in those dimensions is a matter of entering a particular state of being -- to go from the Savannah to the Halls of Progress, for example, you need to become more in tune with the spark of inspiration than with the wild brotherhood. It can look like you're walking there, if that's what you're used to. But what it really needs is the proper state of being, extension of yourself in the appropriate dimensions. In terms of Ofanim, keep doing things and gaining new experiences. Potentially, there are an infinitude of such dimensions; the problem with getting to them is rather like that of a two-dimensional being trying to get to a third. You simply don't have a muscle which moves in that direction to "push" you there. Angels are trapped in, quite literally, the hyperplane of Heaven and can't get to the Upper Heavens the way water can move about on a surface but can't stack up above it. Why can humans? Because there's an applicable muscle -- Jacob's ladder. There is hope, though. It's not farfetched at all to say that God is an infinite-dimensional being, indeed *is* that collection of the infinitude of soul-states. And as such, he can "move" in any direction, including pushing you in a direction you hadn't expected, hadn't even known existed. William ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:53:11 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: IN> The Devil's Eyes I was watching _The Devil's Advocate_ on cable last night, and thought about some of the things that Al Pacino's character did. One of them was an ability to know things about people, usually bad things associated with them. It gave me the idea for this Attunement. The Devil's Eyes Attunement (Luciferian) The Devil's Eyes is a mark of favor from Lucifer himself, and is granted to those who have served Hell well, as a reward and future tool. The holder of this Attunement can look at someone and sense the web of selfishness and Fate which surrounds them. The Attunement is not contested; the holder simply pays the cost and makes a Perception roll. If successful, the check digit indicates the extent and detail of the information. CD 1: Only gross acts of selfishness and Fate which the individual themself has committed which are strong in their memory. On a higher check digit, smaller pecadilloes may be found, which are not so strong emotionally. The same initial description and further development holds for all following categories. 2: The above, plus acts committed by those close to the target which affect him, such as betrayal or manipulation. 3: The above, plus acts committed by those close to the target which do not necessarily concern him. 4: The above, plus acts committed by current mild acquaintances which affect the target directly. 5: The above, plus acts committed by current mild acquaintances, whether they affect the target or not. 6: You know the whole pattern of Fate which has touched the target and all those he has interacted with over the course of his life, including a vague sense of the overall causes and patterns of the sins they have committed. An Infernal Intervention on the use of this Attunement should grant wide-ranging information: the possible Fate of the target, Elohim(Habbalah)-like knowledge of what actions they would react badly to, etc.; it should also indicate that, for whatever reason, Lucifer *wants* this target. The cost of the Attunement is all the Essence currently held by the user, regardless of amount, so long as it is nonzero. No Essence may be spent to increase the check digit. The information enters memory and is retained permanently. The Attunement is immediately obvious in Celestial form; the holder's eyes constantly glow a baleful red which is easily interpreted, even on an instinctual level by those who do not know the actual cause. The Attunement is worth one level of rank in the infernal hierarchy, and a - -3 reaction modifier from anyone aligned with Heaven. There are no obvious penalties associated with use of the Attunement. As for holding it, there are two penalties, if you want to call them that. One, no demon granted The Devil's Eyes has ever Redeemed successfully. It does not necessarily hamper the process itself, but the Attunement is granted only to those who have already shown great dedication to the cause of The Rebellion. (For an angel to hold the Attunement -- Lucifer occasionally grants angels boons, and it seems almost as useful as the Malakite or Mercurian resonances -- is grounds for immediate execution, causes Dissonance at every deliberately attempted use, and requires a Superior to remove whom you don't think will execute you themself for having it.) Two, the Attunement will occasionally activate on its own. Whenever an Infernal Intervention occurs in the holder's vicinity, at the GM's whim (actually, the GM should determine whether losing all his Essence might be balanced out by the information gained, from Hell's institutional point of view) the Attunement automatically activates successfully, centered on the recipient of the Intervention; roll only for check digit. The point cost of this Attunement is 45 points in GURPS, or presumably 15 points in IN. (Like I said, only for those seriously dedicated to the Cause.) William ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:07:53 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Perfect mate > Interesting Ethereal. Sounds VERY Jungian. For those who > don't know, Carl Jung was a student of Freud's and founded > his own system of psychoanalysis in rivalry to Freud's. > A major feature of this system are the "archetypes" that > make up the "collective unconscious." Archetypes are ideas > in-born in all of us. Two of them are the Anima and the Animus. > Another one is the Shadow. Yeah I kinduv wondered why no one had thought of the Perfect Mate before....I imagined archetypes are fairly common very powerful ethereals in the Marches. Still no attempt was actually made to make the perfect mate fit Karl's work aside from to hit a very real button of fear...specifically that of finding the perfect person and discover it's out for your soul...everyone's dreamt of that and the odds of it biting you back so horribly was a terrible lesson I thought. > The Perfect Mate strongly resembles Jung's Anima and Animus > combined. In fact, I would recommend that there be two Perfect > Mates, a Perfect Husband and a Perfect Wife, Animus and Anima. > Of course, there's the evil side of all this, which means that > the Perfect Mate is strongly toned with the Shadow -- the rejected > side of the mind. Very interesting theory. A disturbing possibility is that there are several or many Perfect Mate "types" and that they form their own little outpost in Beleth's world, sort of a fairy court of "dreams of selfish shattered love" with a Demon or Ethereal who feeds off dreams of lovers who have tragicall died (showing up to replace them as "ghosts" or actual and having just this perfect resembelance which they use to lure them to death), a corrupted version of Prince Charming who takes women away from their lives and into beutiful wealthy lifestyles which kills them, the "Temptess" archetype etc. I think Beleth would approve of this court of Ethereals very much so with the Perfect Mate fitting well in....they probably meet in her tower. Specifically I think the dream which created the Perfect mate is a dream of unrealistic expectation....oddly enough one of Blandine's realm but one that drains as surely as Beleths... Very good for a dark Heaven, a court of lovers who cannot escape....like Labrynth. > I should think it would be very hard for celestials to destroy > the Perfect Mate(s) permanently; human psychology would reconstruct > it/them quickly. But angels of Blandine might well want to trash > it anyway, hoping that the next instance would not be so predatory. I imagine it's dreams like the perfect mate which keep the Tsaydim hunting through the Ethereal Marches rather than immediately going for demons as one would expect Malakim to do. I also suspect Blandine's opinion of Andrephalus and Lust is in large part due to beings like the Perfect Mate, she cannot understand how dreams of true love could spawn something so.....vile. I imagine a distinction awaits whoever can put an end to the creature forever if they can find it on Earth or in the Marches. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:11:01 -0500 From: "Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki" Subject: IN> Vesselspace > Applying this to In Nomine, if celestials and ethereals are > multidimensional creatures, one would expect them to be able > to see "through" (really "into") objects as well as move "through" > (really "around") them, when in celestial form. One would expect > them to be able to make material things vanish and reappear with > trivial ease, and make mirror-flips as with the aforementioned > glove. Like shunting Vessels in and out of existance? I have this image of a bunch of humans working on a hyperspace project. Finally, they get it to work. They send a camera into hyperspace, and bring it back. To their surprise, the pictures actually develop. And show... People. And a few animals, but mostly all sorts of people, many of them in modern clothing, "frozen in time" and floating in a swirling hypersea and wisps of what are (unbeknownst to them) loose Forces.. Somewhere in Hell, a Tether to Vapula forms, one that may greatly change the balance of power in Heaven and Hell... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:11:41 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The angel of Hawaiian shirts >Ok, this one is just _strange_. Funny, but strange... Exactly how I like em. A tribute to you and a pity you didn't think of it first. >especially this, when one considers the bit about how >Hoeial will, if really pushed to it, make Hawaiian >shirts out of demons and give them to other Malakim. >It makes Tropical Island Night at the 8th Virtue a lot >more disquieting... First of all the fact Malakim HAVE a Tropical Night probably scares the living heck out of demons. I'd also hate to imagine what they think when those foolish enough to crash it discover what Hoeial did about coconuts, those little swords in punches, and...I don't even want to know what those little umbrellas do. >:) Ditto :-) - -Charlemagne Jimmy Buffet is a soldier of Hoeial, I swear ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:13:20 -0500 From: "Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> March 13, 2001 (ML) > No. Infant humans start out with 1 Force, but they're > definitely not loose Forces. That's just one example. There > are plenty of 1-Force objects and beings on the Corporeal plane. > Now, on the Celestial plane, something with only one Force may > be a stable object, but it could get recycled into loose a loose > Force pretty easily. I have this image, now, of a Valpulan device where you feed seven babies into it and an Impudite squirts out the other end. Hmmmmm. I have to work that into my game somehow. -Loki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:17:28 -0500 From: "Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi (was: What I want to see next) > My campaign features Toral, a Kyrio of Animals who uses his > animal Hosts to provide recon for the group. He rarely has his As another poster said, I'm definitely seeing a trend here. So far, the one Cherub mentioned seems to be the exception that proves the rules. I revise my question into some related questions: Has anyone ever had someone play an angel of Jordi that *is not a Kyriotate* in their game? And had it *work*? And has anyone ran a Kyriotate of Jordi whose usefulness isn't mainly recon and/or spying? > is presumed in Limbo. Toral frequently spends large amounts of > Essence -- at the _beginning_ of a game session -- on the > Celestial Song of Tongues to help his friend come home. I > thought that was unbearably cool. This, however, I agree is cool. Where does he get the Essence? Most of my characters run through Essence pretty fast. -Loki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:22:44 -0500 From: "Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> March 13, 2001 (ML) > > No. Infant humans start out with 1 Force, > > !? That's just lame. I could see one of each, or even > one celestial and one corporeal, but only one force per baby? > What is it, corporeal? One of the co-GMs of the game I'm in (as opposed to the In Nomine game I'm running that she's in) claims it's a Celestial Force. The baby uses all its Perception to stare at everything, and all its Will to do all that screaming. Perhaps Archangel Beth can explain this better. :-) -Loki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:28:04 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> March 13, 2001 (ML) From: "Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki" > > I have this image, now, of a Valpulan device where you feed seven babies > into it and an Impudite squirts out the other end. Hmmmmm. I have to work > that into my game somehow. And you just stuck the image in my brain of somebody saying "So that's your reliever in the wood chipper there, huh?", in a perky Minnesota accent. My lawyers will be contacting you directly. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:32:51 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> March 13, 2001 (ML) At 5:29 PM -0500 3/16/01, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Michael Walton wrote: > >> No. Infant humans start out with 1 Force, > >!? That's just lame. I could see one of each, or even >one celestial and one corporeal, but only one force per baby? >What is it, corporeal? In the granularity of IN, I would presume so. (They're little learning machines, and they definitely have "soul," but they don't seem to have much persistance* (Will or Precision), not much hand-eye coordination (Precision), and will sleep through nearly anything (Perception). Reasoning is fairly limited too, so a low Intelligence is there... I could see ruling they have 1 Force and the others will develop naturally. (I think this is what the CPG does?) I could also see ruling that they have 5 Forces and their attributes are just lowered due to age. (*At Iolanthe's 12-month checkup (which is 10 months after her _due_ date), the doctor said that she had the concentration of a 15-month old, since she grabbed the stethescope around the doctor's neck and didn't let go even when the doctor waggled an alternate offering.) - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:35:07 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Add-on to Jordi comment At 11:09 PM +0000 3/16/01, daiv@cruzio.com wrote: >A thought one this one... is there any constraint on how far spread out a >Kyriotates Hosts can be? No -- but you have to assign 1 Force per "solitary" insect. Swarms take only 1 Force as well, but they have to be swarmy... (So you can't take a swarm of insects, and then disperse them for the same swarm-Force, while retaining possession.) (See the Fiat example of Hitherby a bit -- she splits off a single bug and Force now and again.) >Correct me if I am wrong, but what one vessel sees, the whole Kyriotate knows? Yup. - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:39:22 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> March 13, 2001 (ML) At 7:22 PM -0500 3/16/01, Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki wrote: >One of the co-GMs of the game I'm in (as opposed to the In Nomine game I'm >running that she's in) claims it's a Celestial Force. The baby uses all its >Perception to stare at everything, and all its Will to do all that >screaming. Perhaps Archangel Beth can explain this better. :-) I dunno -- I think it's all being put into Eating and Growing and Output. Once they reach a year, though, they've at least got _stats_ in the other attributes, even if not a "full Force." They definitely stare, when they're awake. But Iolanthe only yells when she's: hurt, hungry (subset of hurt, really), or angry because Mommy is not giving her all Mommy's attention and Essence. She's a good kid. Even if she is cutting her fifth tooth... - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:03:58 -0600 From: Cthulhu@vorlonempire.com Subject: [none] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:01:48 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> March 13, 2001 (ML) - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > !? That's just lame. I could see one of each, or even > one celestial and one corporeal, but only one force per baby? > What is it, corporeal? I think so... don't have any books with me at the moment. The rule is they start with one Force and the other four (or more) attach naturally as they mature. That's canon, at any rate. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "When you have bought your own load of hooey, you know exactly what it is worth." -- Bruce Sterling __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:12:10 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: IN> Kyriotate Host Separation - --- daiv@cruzio.com wrote: > A thought one this one... is there any constraint on how far > spread out a Kyriotates Hosts can be? I'm aware of none, which is why Toral (the Critter-tate IMC) has Hosts both in Siberia and in North America. That's why the rule about Essence regeneration -- only once per 24 hours -- is necessary. Otherwise Kyrios could recharge on Essence almost constantly with enough Hosts. On the other hand, Kyrios can be pretty obscene even with that constraint. Hypothetical situation: a Domination with multiple Hosts (say, two in North America and one in Africa) is tracking a demon that he really needs to take down. Host A attacks the demon after midnight and engages in a Song-slinging combat, but allows the demon to retreat before the Host gets too banged up. Host C (the one in Africa, and the one with the most Forces with it) positions itself to watch the sunrise over the Serengeti and recharge on Essence. The Kyrio then releases that Host and manifests a Celestial Form to fight alongside Host B while the demon is still Essence-starved. Assuming Celestials of comparable power, the demon is at a distinct disadvantage here. It takes some precise knowledge of time zones to pull off, but it's far from impossible. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "When you have bought your own load of hooey, you know exactly what it is worth." -- Bruce Sterling __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:18:18 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Vesselspace Ooh, you are so evil! Must find a way to use this idea... ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "When you have bought your own load of hooey, you know exactly what it is worth." -- Bruce Sterling __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:21:57 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Jordi (was: What I want to see next) - --- "Kirt Dankmyer, aka Loki" wrote: > Toral frequently spends large amounts of > > Essence -- at the _beginning_ of a game session -- on the > > Celestial Song of Tongues to help his friend come home. I > > thought that was unbearably cool. > > This, however, I agree is cool. Where does he get the Essence? > Most of my characters run through Essence pretty fast. So do mine. The player just saves it up over a few sessions (or, if enough game time passes between sessions, I just assume that everyone's full up) and lets fly when he has enough. The first time he did this, he sent 6 Essence (!) in one pop. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "When you have bought your own load of hooey, you know exactly what it is worth." -- Bruce Sterling __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 21:58:45 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Adventure Seed-The Ruins of Babel The Ruins of Babel An archaelogist has recently uncovered the remenants of a civilization older than Babylon or Sumeria or any previously existing one in the region of the Middle East. The lanquage is like nothing scientists have ever found before and they have discovered artifacts that presently seem to defy explanation as to function and power source. Most strange is the fact that at the center of this city is a tower which is the largest pre-modern civilization construction that most scientists have ever seen though in it's ruins it's difficult to tell exactly how big it was and there is tremendous debate about it. The celestials of old however know exactly what is going on and the lead scientist Johnathan Digger knows exactly what he's found as well.....the Civilization of Babel. 13,600 years ago when the Grigori were first outcast many of them were horrofied by what had been done to them and their children and went mad or verily near close to it locked away from the Light of Heaven. Although due to the fact they were farthest from mankind they were able to deal with the abscence of Heaven better than any others, many recognized exactly what they were missing and grew desperate...seeking any way to return to the Grace of God...even to ally with darkness. A young Habbalah named Vapula and a servant of Beleth, widely reputed to be the greatest architect in all of Hell met with these Grigori as he showed them his designs based on his knowledge of technology and the Symphony that he had gleaned in his service to his mistress....if Hell could connect to the Marches why not the Earth? However the task would require monumental labor and far more effort than the grigori themselves could muster. Thus humanity as usual proved to be the answer as the Outcast grigori taught them the Celestial tongue and countless secrets of the Symphony so that they could understand the complex things they would have to do to achieve their aims. The city quickly flourished as the Children of the grigori interbred and hid from mankind's gaze....praying that their bargain would not be held against them as they ascended to Heaven and begged for forgiveness. The nephilim lived again but they indulged their cruelty in more constructive ways as the hideous masters of the City driving their slaves towads Heaven. Gabriel, Eli, Jean and Dominic were the voices when this came to be known that most condemned this horrofic subversion of the natural order of God. Not only was the city filled with Hubris and Pride and Cruelty but it was a perversion of Creation and armed humanity knowledge that it was completely unready for. Servitors of all these beings were dispatched and powerful songs and artifacts were used which destroyed the Grigori and Nephilim present even as it wiped the Celestial tongue from the minds of those present, giving birth to many lanquages including what would eventually become Sumerian, Latin, Enochian, and Greek. The lanquages most associated with the tongue of the angelic and the infernal. For his work Vapula was visited by Lucifer and awarded the word of Technology even as his experiment proved a failure or at least inconclusive.... Well quite obviously the Angelic Host was hopeing that time would eventually turn all this monument to Darkness save it's lesson recorded in the Bible to dust but Johnathan Digger's obsession with the legend has unfortunately led to it's discovery under the auspices of searching out for a common lost city-state and whatnot. In truth Digger is working (unknowingly) for Vapula and his servitors who under an inspector or two are intending to revive the experiment by putting Babel's knowledge in the hands of humanity that in today's world of information sharing will be unable to be so repressed as before. With the aid of a causally interested servitor of Nybbas (who is unpopular because history is boring) they have already spread the discovery more than it can easily be squashed. Also in truth Digger is a descendant of the original Grigori along with many and so old he has come to view the tower as perchance a way to subvert the process of death. The lesson of the other Grigori has not been lost either and slowly but ever surely the relations and loved ones of the slain are comming to visit the sight. Yep just another day in the life of an angel or demon. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2109 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.