From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Apr 19 18:18:12 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26575 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:18:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id SAA06625 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:25:25 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:25:25 -0500 Message-Id: <200104192325.SAA06625@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2169 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, April 19 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2169 In this digest: IN> [ADMIN] Re: Ummm...Ms. Line Editor? Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." IN> Ladders and Canon IN> Live Friday Gaming IN> Oannes (Re: Inner Workings of the Seraphim Council) Re: Soul-killing Re: IN> Gurps IN suggestion -- Vessels and DR... Re: IN> Gurps IN suggestion -- Vessels and DR... Re: IN> A Discussion of Celestial Sex (Rated R) Re: IN> Rings Re: IN> Rings Re: IN> Rings Re: IN> Rings Re: IN> The Corporation of G.O.D Re: IN> Live Friday Gaming Re: IN> Rings IN> Celestial feelings towards permanency Re: IN> A Discussion of Celestial Sex (Rated R) Re: IN> Rings Re: IN> Rings Re: IN> Live Friday Gaming Re: IN> Celestial feelings towards permanency Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." Re: IN> Live Friday Gaming Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2145 Re: IN> G.I. Angel Re: IN> G.I. Angel Re: IN> Celestial "matter" Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." Re: IN> Celestial feelings towards permanency Re: IN> Rings Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:11:39 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> [ADMIN] Re: Ummm...Ms. Line Editor? At 10:11 PM -0700 4/18/01, Peter Eng wrote: >...ma'am? > >Would you be so kind as to KABONG the thread that spawned from Moe's >treatment of the One Ring? I think it's reached the limit of civil >discussion. As do I. Okay, everyone -- it's officially requested by an unbiased third party that you all SHUT UP on the subject. Please do so. Thanks. (Discussion about Other Rings, or anything that doesn't have personal attacks in it, is fine; yeah, that's restricting freedom of speech, but the negative stuff has gone into flamage and should be taken TO PRIVATE EMAIL. Especially anything with a _SUBJECT_ that says "Massively Off-Topic." I mean, come on, if you _KNOW_ it's off-topic... DON'T POST IT.) >Hmm. Y'know, that thing really _is_ Evil. Just think; Moe gets to read the digests when he comes back. - --Beth, List Admin http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/listrules.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:54:38 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." >And if that's the kind of game I find myself in, then I leave, precisely >because I don't like that. Please note that I said 'And this is the point >at which I get up and leave', not 'And this is the point at which I get up >and demand that the campaign be utterly ended'. > Noted :) Partly the reason I am interested is that I wouldn't want to make one of my players feel this uncomfortable, and I'm thinking that what might be perfectly clear to a GM as, "This is a Cool Thing that will make them sweat a bit and shake up their worldview, they'll get some fun angst, but eventually I'll figure out a way for it to be neutralised," might easily seem to a player as, "This is an insoluble problem that makes the gameworld a horrible place. I'm not enjoying this game." Is there anything the GM can do to subtly let the players know that they are/aren't playing in a paradigm where everything will be OK in the end? And if players know that whatever happens they will eventually win out, does that make it more difficult for them to get really into the game? jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:18:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Ladders and Canon [I killed the thread before I got any licks in, so I'm not going to do any licks, period. Suffer. I certainly am.] At 7:27 PM -0500 4/18/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: >From: "Elizabeth McCoy" >> At 6:47 PM -0500 4/18/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: >> >At least one Superior-level celestial has ascended the ladder in canon. >> >> Eh? Who? Uriel was recalled; he didn't ascend. > >He went up the ladder, didn't he? (*Dragged* up the ladder, perhaps...) No, he did not go up the ladder. God's Hand did not come down, grab him by the nape of the neck, and drag him up Jacob's Ladder. God's Presence manifested (however that happens) and when it was gone, Uriel was gone, and (IIRC S1 properly), Laurence was the Archangel of the Sword and everyone had a very strong sense of "This guy's the General of the Armies of God now." (Either that or they just figured that, as a God-appointed Archangel, formerly an angel of Purity, this was clearly Uriel's heir apparent.) Uriel was recalled into Heaven by Ineffable Means. - --Elizabeth McCoy, In Nomine Line Editor (arcangel@io.com) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:21:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Live Friday Gaming At 9:34 PM -0400 4/18/01, William J. Keith wrote: >>(And yes, I am listening; I need to run more games of my own, darnit... >>I need to get s'more people interested in my Friday Afternoon proposed >>game.) > >*perk* Friday afternoons? Not... *hopehope*... online, by any chance...? Alas, I was hoping for a bi-weekly live game. Online ones are at the whim of the Princess of Cute, since I can't GM and take care of her while typing. A live one, I could make an attempt to walk around and amuse her in other ways... (I've got one potential player, but my other one hasn't gotten back to me, and I want at least two players here...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:30:48 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Oannes (Re: Inner Workings of the Seraphim Council) At 11:34 PM -0400 4/18/01, William J. Keith wrote: >Personally, I think there Needs to be a major adventure published for IN >describing the raising of a new Archangel of Water. Actually, Oannes was _the Waters_, not just Water. Now, if you want to write something up, there's always Pyramid... >Be assured I am free of suck-up when I suggest that Zarahiel, >recently-bound Angel of Ice, would make a *neat* candidate(among others, of Hmmmmm? (Ice has a lot of potential... Remind me to tell you about our totally non-canon Soap Opera, wherein was the search for an Outcast of bright Fire who might be willing to take the Word of Ice (despite it being rather anthethetical to Fire) in an attempt to take down Belial enough so that Fire _could_ fight Fire... And trounce him. Well, that part of the plan is a ways out, but the Search wouldn't be beyond PC reach...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:50:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Soul-killing Re: IN> Gurps IN suggestion -- Vessels and DR... At 7:17 AM -0400 4/19/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: > >The fix I have for the Aging rolls is that you make your Aging rolls at >Will-4, one roll per attribute and power "flavor" of power investiture. Walter said, last night, that he was considering this -- but it made ethereal spirits and low-power celestial spirits (such as relievers) too wimpy. (I'm still kicking around some notions about a 1d3 roll, as mentioned a while back, but I want to do some of my own games to see how those work in play first. See the other thread about Fridays.) >"called shots" in Celestial combat? Called shots to what? The Ofanite's >head? It has no head, it's a spinning wheel of celestial flames. SFIAK, >there should be no called shots in celestial combat, it's not fair to those >creatures who actually /do/ have "heads" and "vitals." Amen. (I might, however, permit Called Shots to things like weapons, to disarm or attempt to break them.) Oiy, I should add No Vitals to the Celestial form sidebar as errata, maybe. O:p >Corp loss: lose 1 ST, 1 HT, and 1 level of Corporeal Investiture >Ethe loss: lose 1 IQ, 1 DX, and 1 level of Etereal Investiture >Cele loss: lose 1 WL, 1 PN, and 1 level of Celestial Investiture (Psst -- remind me to drag some of your house rules out of you in a form I can hand to EDG sometime so it can go on the INC, and then I can have it linked to the GIN page...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:50:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Gurps IN suggestion -- Vessels and DR... At 7:33 AM -0400 4/19/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>Or give celestials the advantage of No Vitals, perhaps. (Just tack it onto >>the rest of the mongo advantages they get and forget about it; I am SOOOOO >>glad that we didn't try to stick with Everyone Has The Same Number Of >>Points...) > >No Vitals . . . hrm. Now there's an interesting idea. I'm being darned tempted to stick it on celestial form as errata, I am. I just need the cost for it. O:p >>(And yes, I am listening; I need to run more games of my own, darnit... >>I need to get s'more people interested in my Friday Afternoon proposed >>game.) > >Sigh, if only I could make the commute. Oooo, that'd be fun. O:> >>>our Bright Lilim has 10 reliquaries, grin, 5pts baby, hell yeah!) >> >>No kidding... Watch out for high-Perception demons spotting them! > >Doesn't matter. She's got a Perception score of 26 (she was converted, you >see) will see them first. (Hell, she can ignore the vision penalities for >complete darkess (-10) for all practical purposes. Ummmm........ demons with the Humanity attunement running? (Oh, man, ignoring vision penalties... Like having Faz Sense, only more obnoxious.) >and I'd have to /completely/ agree here (not that I'd use the Aging rules >anyway) And, re Online -- I'm not keen on that idea, as I noted earlier. If I were talked into something (which is kind of doubtful, unfortnately), it would probably be on a MUSH or at PyraMOO. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:35:01 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A Discussion of Celestial Sex (Rated R) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > This can be accomplished by overlapping one's Forces in an extended > cuddle (which can look -- or at least feel -- as much like the > "vapor sex" described in some C.S. Lewis books as it might > look like normal, corporeal copulation), or by other means [...] A clarification: This description is in one C.S. Lewis book, "A Preface to Paradise Lost," and is Lewis's description of a concept invented by John Milton, not Lewis's own invention. Milton pictured celestials as having bodies made of air, or of an air-like substance, capable of arbitrary shape-change and size-change, and also capable of mixing, the way two samples of gas or liquid can. ("Like water and wine, or like two wines," I think he said.) This mixing was the "vapor sex." (Nice term.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:48:22 -0600 (MDT) From: Chris Holland <4251772@gold.sdsmt.edu> Subject: Re: IN> Rings > >ObIN: If there is a One Ring, there have to be the Other Rings, > right? > >Three for the elv...ethereals, five for the dwar...demon princes, and > >seven for humans, IIRC. Not to be picky but 3,7,9 (makes it even more difficult to locate them) Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:55:48 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Rings - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Holland" <4251772@gold.sdsmt.edu> To: Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 9:48 AM Subject: Re: IN> Rings > > > ObIN: If there is a One Ring, there have to be the Other Rings, > > > right? > > >Three for the elv...ethereals, five for the dwar...demon princes, and > > >seven for humans, IIRC. > > Not to be picky but 3,7,9 (makes it even more difficult to locate them) Ah, but shouldn't the Nine Rings be on the fingers of *undead*, not men? - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:49:30 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Rings >From: Chris Holland <4251772@gold.sdsmt.edu> >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Rings >Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:48:22 -0600 (MDT) > > > >ObIN: If there is a One Ring, there have to be the Other Rings, > > right? > > >Three for the elv...ethereals, five for the dwar...demon princes, and > > >seven for humans, IIRC. > > Does that make them the 'prime' evils? jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:05:24 -0600 (MDT) From: Chris Holland <4251772@gold.sdsmt.edu> Subject: Re: IN> Rings > Ah, but shouldn't the Nine Rings be on the fingers of *undead*, not > men? Very true, has anyone seen the DP of Death lately? Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:33:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Corporation of G.O.D - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > G.O.D. Incorporated > > (Globalized.Observation. and Disinformation) Noooooo! There is only one G.O.D. (Games Operational Director)! Keep our acronymns pure! };> ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:45:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Live Friday Gaming > At 9:34 PM -0400 4/18/01, William J. Keith wrote: > >>(And yes, I am listening; I need to run more games of > my own, darnit... > >>I need to get s'more people interested in my Friday > Afternoon proposed game.) Live IN, you say? What's the geographic locale? ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:48:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Rings - --- Chris Holland <4251772@gold.sdsmt.edu> wrote: > > >Three for the elv...ethereals, five for the > dwar...demon princes, and > > >seven for humans, IIRC. > > Not to be picky but 3,7,9 (makes it even more difficult > to locate them) Not to mention being truer to Tolkien. "Three for the Elven kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf Lords in their halls of stone, Nine rings for mortal men doomed to die..." There's more to the poem, but more would be a copyright violation. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:49:00 EDT From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: IN> Celestial feelings towards permanency I'm slightly intrigued on whether or not others feel that celestials really feel that permanent solutions are necessary. From what he's written, Chuckg seems to indicate that these are necessary. I see Destiny and Fate servitors as being in favor of this in theory. After all, when they get a human to fulfill his Destiny or Fate, the proper celestial realm gets a soul. But, I can also see them as going, "Oh well, we didn't quite succeed. But it's not so bad since the other guys didn't either, so we have his next life to get it right." IMO, Kronos and Yves take a dim view to this excuse. For whatever reason, I just don't think that permanency is a big thing for celestials. From "it's only a vessel" to David and Khalid imprisoning Magog instead of destroying him, it doesn't seem to me that permanent solutions are necessarily part of the celestial mindset. Thoughts? Sam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:10:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A Discussion of Celestial Sex (Rated R) At 10:35 AM -0500 4/19/01, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> "vapor sex" described in some C.S. Lewis books [...] > >A clarification: This description is in one C.S. Lewis book, >"A Preface to Paradise Lost," and is Lewis's description of >a concept invented by John Milton, not Lewis's own invention. Ah, good. I'll add that to my personal file of this one. (It's what I get when working from memory, early in the morning...) >think he said.) This mixing was the "vapor sex." (Nice term.) Thanks. O:> - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:50:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Rings - --- Jo Hart wrote: > Does that make them the 'prime' evils? See? See? I knew she was a Habbalah! Remember, their secondary Band name is Pun-ishers! ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:54:06 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Rings > There's more to the poem, but more would be a copyright violation. *shrug* Fair use, and not for profit. I've seen that poem used as a Usenet *signature*, fer Gossake. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:16:07 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Live Friday Gaming At 10:45 AM -0700 4/19/01, Michael Walton wrote: >> At 9:34 PM -0400 4/18/01, William J. Keith wrote: >> >>(And yes, I am listening; I need to run more games of >> my own, darnit... >> >>I need to get s'more people interested in my Friday >> Afternoon proposed game.) > > Live IN, you say? What's the geographic locale? New Hampshire, about an hour and a little from Boston, and a half-hour from Portsmouth. Friday Afternoons, thinking about a bi-weekly schedule. (Interested parties contact me via my email address -- it's not relevant to the list now that I've given the local area details.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:04:19 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial feelings towards permanency >I'm slightly intrigued on whether or not others feel that celestials really >feel that permanent solutions are necessary. From what he's written, >Chuckg seems to indicate that these are necessary. For potentially Symphony-rending or War-ending problems, yes. For lesser difficulties -- highly preferable, but not absolutely required. If it's not going to lose the War for you and you've got something else important coming up that just might, by all means, abandon the first and get to work. Note also that while I think there does have to be a permanent solution for the really big things, it doesn't necessarily have to be the PCs who implement it unaided. For some overly large problems, the only rational solution is "Invoke Your Superior." -- which, while it may be hard on the ol' ego and sense of personal accomplishment, does still at least have the virtue of working. Demons, with their innate selfishness, I can easily see as having a "Hey, not *my* problem mentality" to large issues. So long as they can patch together a temporary solution that gets it off their back, the rest of the Symphony can go fly a kite. But that's why they're the demons -- because they don't really care about anything other than their own selves. But In My Opinion, there should be no such thing as an *angel* who has a "Hey, not *my* problem anymore..." mentality -- not unless the angel in question knows that the problem has been taken up by somebody else who can deal with it effeticvely even if the angel couldn't, as opposed to having merely abandoned the problem to an indefinite future because it's too much trouble for the angel to bother with. To stop trying to solve a problem because the situation's been taken over from you by people who are capable of competently dealing with it is just fine. To just drop it and walk away because you can't solve it and can't be bothered to try finding somebody who can is something else again. Problems need to either: a) have solutions the PCs can implement. b) have solutions the PCs *can't* implement, but they can at least find somebody who can find somebody else who can find somebody else [...] who can finally find somebody who *can* fix the smeggin' thing. c) be small enough that even if you can't fix them, you've only lost a battle, not the War. - -- Chuckg "To quit my post only when properly relieved." -- the First General Order of a Sentry, part 5. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:49:08 -0600 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." > It is _perfectly OK_ to play a gothic, gloomy game of IN where ruin & > damnation may be inevitable and all PCs can do is try to bring as much light > into the world as they can before the lights go out. God has been passive Aye. It's not my favored style, but it's not fundamentally different from playing a doomed character. Quitting a game because no solution -- or the one you're convinced should exist -- is readily available or apparent is like shooting yourself when you discover you have cancer. Sure, it cuts to the chase, but the chase was never the point of the game. The game was the point of the game. > jo Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:02:44 GMT From: daiv@cruzio.com Subject: Re: IN> Live Friday Gaming > >*perk* Friday afternoons? Not... *hopehope*... online, by any chance...? > And just to completely dash my hopes, y'all are depressingly far away from Santa Cruz California, right? I am thinking you may have mentioned New Hampshire in some context or another... (trying to imagine even trying to talk the wife into that... Not working...) - -Daiv ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:51 +0100 (BST) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2145 In article <20010419125634.17307.qmail@web514.mail.yahoo.com>, thunderdog_sa@yahoo.com (Michael Walton) wrote: > --- John Dallman wrote: > > Resistance to damage? > > > > Vessels are biologically human (or whatever animal) and > > take damage off > > the same things as humans (less a few immunities because > > of the different nature of the inhabiting spirit). > > Yes, but they can withstand a good deal more punishment > than the average Human. If that toughness extends to the > cellular level, they probably don't sunburn. No, they just don't sunburn so /easily/. - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:06:33 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> G.I. Angel >Thank you Moe for permanently warping my brain to the point I spent all >night reviewing webpages of old Joe episodes and renting the Movie >again....I had to get this out of my system. I gotta hand Moe a second-order thanks on this one too, for getting you to come up with it... >Prodject: Archangel >Gehenna's Fist *Much* funkiness. These developments significantly strengthen humans as a factor in the War, while maintaining the (relative) secrecy with respect to the general public. I can see a bazillion uses for these two ideas: Initial Creation of Project: Archangel Lower-ranking member of U.S. government agency/military (PCs) find out about the War, someone (maybe NPC) decides it's their duty to tell the Brass. Wise or not? What do the discovered celestials have to say about it? Standard-power game for regular-sized group of mortal characters. High-ranking member of U.S. government agency/military (single PC or two) does same, decides to pitch and initiate/head Project: Archangel. High-powered (in terms of Status, Rank, highly-experienced skills, etc.) game of strategy and politics for one or two players of mortal characters. Angels find out that there's serious governmental work going on. To stop, or not to stop? If to stop, why and how? If not to stop, to help or not to help? If to help, why and how? Suitable for most groups, preferably ones with different views on the utility of humans and their governments. ;^) (Subclass of game, for a single player -- a Grigori finds out. And joins...) Demons find out (possibly by being lethally surprised by a U.S. government strike force...). Try to stop, most likely. Any demonic group, although a lower-powered one may be part of a larger campaign. Alternatively, for small group, especially ones with high Roles -- infiltrate the organization and become an internal mole. Or (delicately, delicately...) find someone on the inside who may be receptive to suggestion, Charm, or cold cash. Ethereals find out. Hey, there's a third side to this War, Mister General! Any size group; a single character would be a bold game. And hey -- Ethereals might just be able to explain a Song of Dreamwalking, or pinpoint Lucid Dreamers, and start teaching some useful skills and Songs. Presuming that Heaven isn't likely to give that level of cooperation(so they found out about the War. That's an error on someone's part, not a lucky break -- we're certainly not going to start teaching them Songs, especially not where the R&D scientists can try to figure out how they work), this make Ethereals an invaluable information resource. How long they remain secreted depends on the Project's level of internal security, though. (Mmm... U.S. Rangers, territory specialty: Marches...) Initial Creation of Gehenna's Fist Demons getting the organization together -- recruitment and political game, with regular light combat in order to "show who's the new Boss" for the next little cell they pick up. Mortal game -- PCs are members of one of the organizations being co-opted. Do you resist, or not? Do you know that Hell's behind it? If so, what are the group's opinions? Maybe some of them figure they're going to Hell anyway; maybe some of them had nobler aspirations and decide that damnation's not what ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:06:33 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> G.I. Angel >Thank you Moe for permanently warping my brain to the point I spent all >night reviewing webpages of old Joe episodes and renting the Movie >again....I had to get this out of my system. I gotta hand Moe a second-order thanks on this one too, for getting you to come up with it... >Prodject: Archangel >Gehenna's Fist *Much* funkiness. These developments significantly strengthen humans as a factor in the War, while maintaining the (relative) secrecy with respect to the general public. I can see a bazillion uses for these two ideas: Initial Creation of Project: Archangel Lower-ranking member of U.S. government agency/military (PCs) find out about the War, someone (maybe NPC) decides it's their duty to tell the Brass. Wise or not? What do the discovered celestials have to say about it? Standard-power game for regular-sized group of mortal characters. High-ranking member of U.S. government agency/military (single PC or two) does same, decides to pitch and initiate/head Project: Archangel. High-powered (in terms of Status, Rank, highly-experienced skills, etc.) game of strategy and politics for one or two players of mortal characters. Angels find out that there's serious governmental work going on. To stop, or not to stop? If to stop, why and how? If not to stop, to help or not to help? If to help, why and how? Suitable for most groups, preferably ones with different views on the utility of humans and their governments. ;^) (Subclass of game, for a single player -- a Grigori finds out. And joins...) Demons find out (possibly by being lethally surprised by a U.S. government strike force...). Try to stop, most likely. Any demonic group, although a lower-powered one may be part of a larger campaign. Alternatively, for small group, especially ones with high Roles -- infiltrate the organization and become an internal mole. Or (delicately, delicately...) find someone on the inside who may be receptive to suggestion, Charm, or cold cash. Ethereals find out. Hey, there's a third side to this War, Mister General! Any size group; a single character would be a bold game. And hey -- Ethereals might just be able to explain a Song of Dreamwalking, or pinpoint Lucid Dreamers, and start teaching some useful skills and Songs. Presuming that Heaven isn't likely to give that level of cooperation(so they found out about the War. That's an error on someone's part, not a lucky break -- we're certainly not going to start teaching them Songs, especially not where the R&D scientists can try to figure out how they work), this make Ethereals an invaluable information resource. How long they remain secreted depends on the Project's level of internal security, though. (Mmm... U.S. Rangers, territory specialty: Marches...) Initial Creation of Gehenna's Fist Demons getting the organization together -- recruitment and political game, with regular light combat in order to "show who's the new Boss" for the next little cell they pick up. Mortal game -- PCs are members of one of the organizations being co-opted. Do you resist, or not? Do you know that Hell's behind it? If so, what are the group's opinions? Maybe some of them figure they're going to Hell anyway; maybe some of them had nobler aspirations and decide that damnation's not what they bought in for. (Are *you* one? And what are *they* going to do about it?) Angelic infiltration -- spying, moles, disruptive agents if at all possible. Later Games The existence of Project: Archangel provides an excellent vehicle for characters to be recruited by a mortal agency rather than become Soldiers. Of course, P:A may also be prime pickings for Soldiers, too, especially once the R&D boys start figuring out about Songs, and begin screening for naturally aware Soldiers in the general populace... and *my*, aren't we picking up a lot of Children of the Grigori in these sweeps... gosh, they don't usually get together and compare notes like that, do they... Naturally, both organizations find out about each other. Look, boys -- we just got ourselves a personal Enemy No. 1. So you just nuked a city. Cheer your victory for a moment. Then watch our budget dectuple... >Now be afraid. Only for a second or two. This is *exciting*. :^) >-Charlemagne William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:29:47 -0400 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Celestial "matter" On Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:14:05 -0700 Daiv writes: > > Am i the only one wondering what an (apparently) unarmed > Malakite of Eli would come up with, in celestial form? > Two cherries and a small piece of string, perhaps? "There's this thing they do with a cheese grater and a wire waistcoat..." - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:25:13 -0400 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." On Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:22:49 -0500 "Charles Glasgow" writes: > > It's not canon, and this is not playtest, and > > dropping it into the Holy Grain, or finding the current > Ring-bearer and > > killing it before it gets too powerful (and then handing it to > your > Superior > > or Novalis or something), or finding one's _own_ means of Fix It > So It > > Goes Away For The Next Few Centuries > > Kinda kills the sense of achievement, doesn't it? Not really. Hell, in Call of Cthulhu, you feel as if you've won if you stop the Elder Thingy Of The Week from coming back for another thousand years, even if most of the PCs are dead or in an asylum. Yes, this means that using the Ring, as written, with no explicit escape clause other than "hide it REALLY WELL" is pretty bleak in that Lovecraftian way. You may not like this, but that doesn't equal "this sucks", obviously. It's not even out-of-character for Moe - he tends to do very Bright stuff or very Dark stuff, in my experience. - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:34:45 -0400 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." On Thu, 19 Apr 2001 07:21:52 -0500 "Charles Glasgow" writes: > (OTOH, thinking about what would happen if *Yves* put this sucker > on, now there's something I hadn't considered...) The Symphonic equivilent of a General Protection Fault? - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:07:43 -0400 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." On Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:39:22 -0500 "Charles Glasgow" writes: > c) If there is a c), I ain't found it yet. > how about (c), In Nomine's God seems to prefer to not fsck around with the universe unless It absolutely HAS to. Yes, the Ring is a pretty bad-ass thing to have lying about. But God didn't interfere with Legion, now did he? Indeed, he's directly, obviously interefered all of twice in canon, not counting Divine Intervention rolls. (Only looking at the main book, mind you. I don't have Final Trumpet, FotM, or anything else like that, and don't intend to.) The only assumption I make here is that the IN God is allowing a certain amount of free will to everyone and -thing in the universe, which does drift into CDaU. - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:51:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Celestial feelings towards permanency - --- Samovar3@aol.com wrote: > For whatever reason, I just don't think that permanency > is a big thing for celestials. From "it's only a vessel" > to David and Khalid imprisoning Magog instead of > destroying him, it doesn't seem to me that permanent > solutions are necessarily part of the celestial mindset. > > Thoughts? I suspect that Celestials -- who are effectively immortal - -- have a very different view of permanency than we mere mortals do. When a being who is three centuries old is considered a youngster, what we regard as permanent might well seem transient to them. "Permanent" probably means "eternal" to a Celestial. If they don't see the solution as being likely to last for eternity, they wouldn't call it a final solution. OTOH, beings who live that long might also have a different view on the morality of killing. Taking a life may seem much more tragic (and correspondingly more wrong) when the life you're taking is a potentially eternal one. That is almost certainly Novalis' opinion on the matter. OTGH, I can certainly see Celestials not being willing to go to the effort of affecting an eternal solution to anything less than a potentially eternal problem. Which could be why Magog (who had real potential to Redeem) was imprisoned while Legion was terminated with extreme prejudice. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:20:35 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Rings >>From: Chris Holland <4251772@gold.sdsmt.edu> >>Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >>To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >>Subject: Re: IN> Rings >>Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:48:22 -0600 (MDT) >> >> > >ObIN: If there is a One Ring, there have to be the Other Rings, >> > right? >> > >Three for the elv...ethereals, five for the dwar...demon princes, and >> > >seven for humans, IIRC. >Does that make them the 'prime' evils? Now now, be 'rational'. There's no need to be 'negative' about it. The Elven ones were good, so evil isn't 'integral' to the 'whole' concept; we should 'differentiate' between the two types. If you really want to get 'transcendental' about it though, you can. Go far enough into the Marches, you could probably even find... ...a ring. Within the ring, pi is exactly 3. Biblically supported as well as an object in Warehouse 23, I hasten to add. %^) >jo William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:16:21 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." >From: damienw@juno.com >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." >Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:25:13 -0400 > Not really. Hell, in Call of Cthulhu, you feel as if you've won >if you stop the Elder Thingy Of The Week from coming back for another >thousand years, even if most of the PCs are dead or in an asylum. Guess who doesn't enjoy playing Call of Cthulhu, either. Honestly, when I said that I'd walk out of a game being played like this, the responses to that varied between 'Chuckg is being unreasonable' and 'Chuckg is being *really* unreasonable'. What, so I'm not allowed to say that I really don't enjoy something? Guys, you can say that you like roleplaying hopeless situations where I don't and that's just a difference in personal taste... but what you can't do is convince me that a genuinely hopeless situation isn't actually hopeless, 'cause that ain't personal taste. What things *are* is not subject to opinion, only what you *feel about* them. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2169 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.