From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri May 18 15:38:57 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07593 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:38:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA23323 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:36:17 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:36:17 -0500 Message-Id: <200105182036.PAA23323@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2233 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, May 18 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2233 In this digest: Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast Re: IN> Hell's plan for beating Heaven epilogue Re: IN> Whee, yet more IN questions. ^_^;; IN> Karakash (Re: Whee, yet more IN questions. ^_^;;) Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast IN> Weapon question Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast Re: IN> Weapon question Re: IN> In Anime Movie Trailer Re: IN> Karakash (Re: Whee, yet more IN questions. ^_^;;) Re: IN> Karakash (Re: Whee, yet more IN questions. ^_^;;) IN> Mirror In Nomine : The History ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 11:45:05 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast At 2:40 PM -0400 5/18/01, Jo Hart wrote: >>From: Whistling in the Dark >>I'm occasionally of the opinion that IN should have followed the >>French INS/MV model (or, for that matter, the White Wolf WoD >>Vampire/Werewolf/Mage/Changeling model) and released two seperate >>games -- one Angelic and one Infernal. And that the Infernal game >>should proceed from the supposition that the demons are right, that >>Self Interest, individuality and independence are the virtues and >>that the Heavenly totalitarianism must be smashed. >> > >But what about people who enjoy playing silly, immoral demons >without too many scruples? I really think this is how demons were >intended to be presented as PCs. They don't need the moral high >ground to be fun characters (not that you can't do it -- it's >painfully easy to write up any of the demon princes as noble heroes, >but I think they're a lot more *fun* just as they are.) Oh, I have no problem with that, either. If the above model -- which, like I said, I only occasionally agree with -- were in place, those would be demons in an Angelic game, or just demons run silly and immoral instead of self-righteous. I guess I was answering the question "how would you make the game Low Contrast" with the supposition "everyone believes they're right and everyone has evidence to support that belief, at least to themselves." That opens with games that present opposing viewpoints in the same world -- which the IPG really tried to do, I'd add, but there's still a strong High Contrast bias to the game. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 11:52:38 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Hell's plan for beating Heaven epilogue At 8:34 PM -0400 5/17/01, Charles Phipps wrote: >Niptick: Well theres all this bright light which will stop us from taking >Heaven.... > >Baal: Your saying a bit of discord an hour is enough to dissaude you from >slaughtering angels in the streets? It's not Discord, it's soul hits. Which is, indeed, something that should be taken into tactical account. Troop rotations, see -- ferry them down for healing before they have too much Force loss, rotating up freshly healed troops. >Especially given the >damned will be immune to such. Unclear. (Though he's a Balseraph and might believe such.) Unclear that the damned can even be _brought_ to Heaven, depending on your cosmology... - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 11:54:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Whee, yet more IN questions. ^_^;; At 6:28 PM -0700 5/17/01, Kish wrote: >From: "Elizabeth McCoy" >At 7:01 PM -0400 5/17/01, S.D. wrote: >>>First off, are there any canon Bright Lilim attunements yet? >>(If you dig around in the INC, you can find prototypes of them, [...] > >Note, however, that Laurence's attitude toward Bright Lilim is pretty much >the opposite of what it's indicated to be in the INC--instead of never >wanting any, he tries to get every Lilim who Redeems. Maybe he never wants to redeem any of them _himself_...? O:> (Lilim cooties! Lilim cooties! Oh, she's already got wings? Hey, gimme!) But as I said, prototypes. From before when I was even an _author_, yet. - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 11:58:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Karakash (Re: Whee, yet more IN questions. ^_^;;) At 6:02 AM -0400 5/18/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: >HAS ANYONE HEARD FROM JOHN KARAKESH?! Not only have I not heard from him... I had to u-n-s-u-b him for bounces. O:< - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:11:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast At 7:15 AM -0600 5/18/01, Julian Mensch wrote: > I was just browsing through the list archive as I've been >inclined to do, and I've noticed that despite the strong >attention drawn to it in the GMG, there's very little talk >of IN Backwards or Low Contrast on the list. It happens. Our games tend to be moderately bright, moderately low-contrast -- there are some real stinkers of demons, very nasty, but they tend to be Shedim and _really_ nasty members of other Bands. (And Gamesters, definitely.) But there are an awful lot of demons who can be _talked_ to... (And I need to haul in a couple of players for another game which is.... well, "Not Canon" comes to mind, but it's been working out to interesting contrast, especially when the Malakite resonated a demon and got a 6 and got mildly upset about killing him because she could see what he _could_ be.) As for Backwards -- I do know of a "didn't happen" "Sliders" thread, on Maya's page, which includes some rather Wrong IN settings. (Including one which is based on my BalProp writeup. [For those who don't know, you need to send me a private request for the URL, and a statement that you're over 18. For those who do know, I suspect they'll agree that it's not a nice thing at all.]) The Techie Heaven there could be used as a model for a backwards-Tartarus, run by Vapula, mind. >there is very little Backwards or Low Contrast material. This >is actually surprising; I would have thought Backwards would >have been one of the more popular variants. Truth be told, I think it would be -- if you change the Shedite dissonance condition. To what, I don't know. Maybe ever "relaxing the reins" and letting the host do something _it_ wants to do. (Can't trust the little monkeys, right? Gotta keep control.) But with Sheddies in the mix, it's hard to justify anything but a Dark Backwards of "The demons are better than the angels -- if you can tell the difference." > So my questions are 1) does anyone know the /dates/ for >when Backwards was discussed on the IN-list in any detail? Gads... I don't think so. I can't even think of any good keywords to search by... (Is the digest search engine fixed yet, BTW?) >2) for the people that have run very Low Contrast I dunno if it's _very_... Basically, have both sides more willing to talk than fight, overall (for a slightly Brighter LoCon). > And finally, I'm inclined to write up my own descriptions >of Bands and some Superiors to give to players for a Back- >wards game. Is anyone interested in seeing this kind of >material on the list? Don't forget to start a website, and please try to keep such material to 10K per day... (Or at least _close_ to that. I squint at 12K; I scowl and write annoyed email at 24K.) O:> - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:54:34 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast Julian Mensch wrote: > I have found Tattered IN, and am more than a little over- > awed by how well done it is -- I have to say I prefer it to > the canon setting by leaps and bounds, largely because of > the moral greyness and high drama/tragedy it evokes. Join in then ^_^ It's not too late, I wouldn't think (there are a couple of unclaimed Superiors, I believe, and plenty of background stuff left to do). (although Moe would be the judge of that, of course) > 2) for the people that have run very Low Contrast or fully > Backwards games, how did it work? How did you handle the > perspectives of various Superiors? Any anecdotes, characters > or similar material to share? Are there any cool web pages > for Backwards or LC games? I played a couple sessions of a backwards (and pretty dark) game, and had a wonderful time. I can't really comment on how the mechanics of it were done, though. From what I could see, the Demon Princes were pretty much the same, although cast in a slightly more sympathetic light (the Exile Malphas in Tattered is pretty clearly based on the Malphas in this game), but the angels (I don't think we met any Archangels) were pretty scary. The one(?) Kyriotate we met reminded me of an Agent from the Matrix (it seems they had a different dissonance condition than in canon); it thought nothing of hurling bodies at us, and crossing the street while running away from it was an awful idea (when two cars suddenly swerve and try to run me down ^_^). It's weakness seemed to be that it wasn't especially good at what it did (maybe it used the host's skills?). The (recurring) Malakite, however, was pretty similiar to a canon blackwing (although a bit nastier), and we didn't meet any other angels. Lots of Soldiers of Heaven, though, which were pretty much what you'd expect. It was a lot of fun. Cheers, Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:18:57 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast At 12:11 PM -0400 5/18/01, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Truth be told, I think it would be -- if you change the >Shedite dissonance condition. To what, I don't know. Maybe >ever "relaxing the reins" and letting the host do something >_it_ wants to do. (Can't trust the little monkeys, right? >Gotta keep control.) But with Sheddies in the mix, it's >hard to justify anything but a Dark Backwards of "The demons >are better than the angels -- if you can tell the difference." I would propose that Shedim not change their Dissonance condition (and that the current explanation of it would be what Angels claim *of* all Shedim, regardless), but that 'corrupt' be redefined to mean 'pushed towards the Word the Shedite serves.' So, for a Servitor of Andrealphus, the Shedite would have to move the host a little bit more towards Lust each day. This wouldn't have to be in a bad way (in a Low Contrast game), but it would have to reflect the Word the Shedite serves. Perhaps the Shedite could also do some 'default' shifting -- say, towards Self Interest over a mindless devotion to the group/slave mentality (what the Angels would call Selfishness). It *does* mean that a prudent Shedite could only stay in a given Host for so long before they'd be pushed beyond a healthy point towards the Word, but if we're postulating Demons who are actually good guys underneath it all, that's part of the price paid. A Shedite who receives a Word of its own would be able to push a host towards the Word he Serves, the Word he holds, or the default 'corruption' available. So, a Word-bound Shedite would have a broad range of options for what it can encourage its host towards. Of course, after six weeks, the Shedite Demon of Labor Unrest (in Service to Greed) would have desperately Libertarian hosts who hoard their pennies and do everything in their power to agitate union members so that they break ranks and fold, allowing Management to exercise its maximum options 'to restore order,' but hey, that person wouldn't have to be *bad,* would he? - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:29:06 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast >I guess I was answering the question "how would you make the game Low >Contrast" with the supposition "everyone believes they're right and >everyone has evidence to support that belief, at least to >themselves." Now, I would say that wasn't a Contrast definition at all. I like my games High Contrast and Bright. But the angels and demons both believe they're right, and they both have (what they consider) valid evidence for their opinion. This would apply just as well to a Low Contrast, Dark game. The difference between High and Low Contrast, in my mind, is simple: In Low Contrast, you could be dropped into either Heaven or Hell, and the difference would be only in the scenery and the presence or absence of the Light of Heaven. The attitudes, ethics, interpersonal relationships, and morale of the two locations would be indistinguishable. In High Contrast/Bright, even the dumbest demon or most dissonant angel couldn't mistake the one for the other. I believe the Low Contrast/Dark described above is what the original French game had in mind. (As you've already guessed, I prefer the Steve Jackson version. And of course it's flexible enough that you *can* run it at whatever brightness you want. I can't understand why some people think that's a bug; I think it's a feature.) Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:46:42 -0400 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast > I have found Tattered IN, and am more than a little over- >awed by how well done it is -- I have to say I prefer it to >the canon setting by leaps and bounds, largely because of >the moral greyness and high drama/tragedy it evokes. What do you mean? Tattered is bright, bright, bright! I mean, the Archangel of Light triumphs over all! ;) Seriously, though, I think the reason that Tattered exploded onto the scene (back in early January when we were clocking almost 200 messages a day) is because there is a deep down dark desire in most Evil Habbalite (tm) GM's and players to blur the lines and play things backwards. I mean, hell, I'd rather work for Alaemon than Laurence any day. Life would be infinitely more interesting. In fact, it would be more life-like. I think most people realize that reality isn't often made up of clear, high-contrast distinctions, so they either want an unrealistic game that makes for simple choices or one that mimics reality with the vagueness that fills up everyday life. I, for one, have always been a big fan of dim, low-contrast games, but have found that often that is a GM tendency and not one that persists as much among players. Most players, so I've found, want to play angels, and their vision of angels is the standard "beings of righteousness, compassion, and virtue," even though I'd rather have dirty, brooding, not-quite-fallen, alien angels, as different from humanity as Martians. Most demon games I've run, also, tend to be fairly difficult and forced, basically because the players think that they have to act purely evil all the time, which just isn't fun. How many mature players that you know want to play baby-eating, throat-tearing, rapist monsters? Not many, and for good reasons. A good demon game, then, almost has to be low-contrast in order to facilitate the idea that the diabolicals really see themselves as doing the right thing. Having a Habbalah or two in the group helps, and Balseraphs are definitely desirable in building that kind of feeling. Asmodeans and Krononauts as well. That being the case, I, for one, am psyched for this summer, when I am going to put my shoulder to the wheel and swing whatever weight I have as Tattered Webmaster to try to get this netbook ready to be played. Maybe if I just whine enough ... Then again, maybe if I catch up on all that HTML ... Since, in Tattered, the differences between Heaven and Hell (or Hades, who's name I still object to, mostly because we can't call them "Hell's Angels") are minimal and there is no line between angels and demons (since there aren't any demons), the setting is utterly perfect as a way to explore the fine lines between "good" and "evil." I'm definitely going to have a PBeM game that's going to launch alongside the public release of the netbook, and will gleefully play in any others that get started. Grey is the way to go. Jonathan Walton World Weavers In Nomine Deus Ex Machina: Steampunk In Nomine PBeM Tattered Symphony Netbook Project ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:57:09 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Weapon question What, in IN terms, are the stats and damage for a bazooka? Someone asked me something, and I'm curious about the answer. There are several projectile weapons listed in the rule book but that's not one of them. Thank you, Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 10:21:06 -0700 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast >From: Ryan Elias >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast >Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:54:34 -0700 > >> >I played a couple sessions of a backwards (and pretty dark) game, and >had a wonderful time. I can't really comment on how the mechanics of it >were done, though. From what I could see, the Demon Princes were pretty >much the same, although cast in a slightly more sympathetic light (the >Exile Malphas in Tattered is pretty clearly based on the Malphas in this >game), but the angels (I don't think we met any Archangels) were pretty >scary. > I can add to this as I also played in that, and a lot of the background ideas were figured out by me and my brother (the GM). It was influenced a lot by Grant Morrison's Invisibles comic book (in fact, that was what inspired my brother to run it) and to a far, far lesser extent by the Matrix (mainly for the previously mentioned Kyriotates). If I remember correctly, it worked as follows: Heaven represents repression, Hell represents freedom. The choirs as defined are as follows: Seraphim try to force people into one defined truth. Remove all other possibilities. Rule wise, they're the same. Cherubim. They try to make sure that their attuned do not stray from the chosen path. The Cherubim guard their attuned and force them to their viewpoint. Ofanim. The scouts. Pretty much the same. Elohim. They get dissonant from having emotions. Emotionless zombies, they're the group that primarily created zombies (in this campaign, Heaven is the big creator of the zombies). Malakim. Same. Only more so. Kyriotates. Ryan already talked about them. They gain dissonance when their host resists them, not when their hosts are harmed. Turns the crowd against you. Mercurians. Didn't encounter them. There was some discussion about switching Mercurian and Impudite abilities. Angels that turn people into mental bodies (by sucking their souls) would have been cool. Some archangels we talked about: Blandine: She tries to tranquilize and censure the dream realm, removing anything that she deems unsuitable for dreamers, what would give them dirty and evil thoughts. David: There is one community, there is one path. Be part of the community, no need to think for yourselves. If you refuse, you die. Laurence: There is one path, one church. Join or die with the infidel. Dominic: Same deal really. Eli: Is the archangel of humanity. Since he, Novalis, and Jordi are directly tied with living things, they feel their pain and have realized the extent of the evil and repression of the archangels. All of them have left Heaven and are wandering the world. Janus: A being of pure energy and chaos who is kept contained by the other archangels until he needs to be released against their foes. Gabriel: An insane prophet who is kept chained in her cathedral and whose insane ravings are interpreted. Yves: The destinity of the world is one thought, one desire, to be happy, to harm no one, to love God. The demons: Balseraphs: They are there to show humanity that there is more then one way of looking at things. There is a manifold of beautiful truths, all wonderous. Djinn: Didn't talk about them much. Calabim: The warriors of Hell. Pretty much the same, except their chaotic attacks are used against different targets. Habbalah: They are the usual recruiters, using their resonance to release the repression that the angels have put upon humanities emotions. Lilim: The same, except their deals are different. Shedim: They use their resonance to make their victims do what they really want to, but lack the courage, confidence, etc. Impudites: See Mercurian. Some Demon Princes: Nybbas: Prince of Pop Art. Freedom and creativity through art. Beleth: Not particularly pleasant (we encountered her in the corpse of a dream-monster surrounded by crows) at times. Tries to free the restrictions on dreams that Blandine has placed. Belial and Furfur: Close allies in these version. The ultimate anarchists. Kobal: The great trickster. Saminga: A lot more intelligent here. The ultimate assasin. His agents are a lot more subtle then Belial's when dealing with enemies. Lilith: Need I say more? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 13:25:24 -0400 From: "Krishnaswami, Neel" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast Jo Hart writes > > But what about people who enjoy playing silly, immoral demons > without too many scruples? I really think this is how demons were > intended to be presented as PCs. They don't need the moral high > ground to be fun characters (not that you can't do it -- it's > painfully easy to write up any of the demon princes as noble heroes, > but I think they're a lot more *fun* just as they are.) Yeah! Yeah! Preach on, sister! In this vein, let me suggest some movies to suggest a demonic worldview: o The Big Hit o Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels o Waking Ned Devine o Young and Dangerous Note the total absence of anything resembling a moral compass in any of these movies. Note that sex, violence and greed are the primary motivations of the characters, and that they are funny as hell. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 10:37:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast - --- Julian Mensch wrote: > I'm inclined to write up my own descriptions > of Bands and some Superiors to give to players for a > Back- > wards game. Is anyone interested in seeing this kind of > material on the list? I've seen a ton of Fallen > Archangels, > Redeemed Princes, a Malakite Novalis and now the combined > Superiors Raplial and Vapulinga -- warped Superiors seem > to > be a popular pastime (no complaints here). Are people > even > remotely interested in Backwards/Low Contrast versions of > Superiors on the list? We must be, else there wouldn't be so many write-ups of Fallen AA's/Redeemed DP's. Check Moe's website for the "Oops" Cycle (lots of Redeemed DP's there). We've also had Fallen Zadkiel and a couple of versions of Fallen Novalis. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 None of your plans for success will work unless you do. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 13:44:45 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Weapon question >What, in IN terms, are the stats and damage for a bazooka? Someone asked me >something, and I'm curious about the answer. There are several projectile >weapons listed in the rule book but that's not one of them. > >Thank you, > >Janet Anderson I don't know how equivalent the two would be(they may be two different names for the same thing launched differently, I dunno), but the Corporeal Player's Guide lists a rocket launcher as doing 15d armor-piercing explosive damage, with no Accuracy bonus, a range of 200, and 1 shot. There are other heavy weapons listed there, as well. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:30:31 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: Re: IN> In Anime Movie Trailer >> >> >But better, I think to do Laurence/Michael, or >> >> >better...Laurence/Khalid as Saionji/Touga >> >> >> >> Ooh. I *like* that second one. But Laurence pretty much *needs* to stay >> >> as Dios. I'm *not* getting rid of the sword connection unless I have an >> >> *extremely* good reason. >> >> >> >How about because Dios and Akio happen to be the same being? :) In >> >unfallen/fallen state... >> >> Well, true. But who'd replace Laurence if I made him Saionji/Touga? > >Force Andre to yo-yo as needed for filming scenes? :) [chokes on laughter] >Although if Laurence/Khalid do Saionji/Touga, Michael can be Dios. And have the current Victor draw the Axe of Michael from the Rose Bride? ^_^ >> >Yes, but Eli's response to the duels would be to have Lillith jump in his >> > car with him and they'd go cruising looking for a party, leaving the >> >morons behind to play their little games. There goes the whole show... >> >:) >> >> ...probably, yeah. ^_^;; Any suggestions besides Zadkiel or Eli? >> >Beyond Zadkiel, I dunno. Actually, I *could* see her as Blandine...Unfortunately, I'd need to work in Beleth as Akio or someone like that, and she doesn't fit. >Although the thought comes to mind of having an Ethereal play the role of >Utena. Ethereals are closer to humanity than Celestials are, even Eli :) > >Or, alternately, Utena as a Grigori or child of the Grigori :) If I wrote up the SKU charas as IN charas (which I may well do...At least Mikage and Juri, anyway), that's what she'd be. >> >> >I'd add Malphas as Mikage (He's in the second set of 13 episodes, >> >> >doesn't >> >> > show up in the first thirteen) >> >> >> >> I recognize Mikage. I know the whole series. (That's part of my >> >> reasoning for other characters - I can *not* see Blandine as Shiori >> >> during the BRA or the Ruka thing...) But Malphas doesn't fit with my >> >> conception of Mikage...and who'd be Nemuro? Or Mamiya? Or *Tokiko*? >> >> Malphas isn't emotionally tied to *anyone* who'd fit those last two. >> > >> >Mikage's whole modus operandi is corrupting people by turning them >> >against others, preferably someone they have a deep emotional bond to. >> >That screams 'Shedim' and 'Factions' to me. >> >> Ah, but would Factions leave Tatsuya alone, just because he put Wakaba >> above himself? I doubt that. >> >Would any demon prince? I can't think of any who would. Another might let him off easier if he's harder to corrupt...And I just can't see Mikage as a Shedite, period. Habbalite makes more sense to me. (He thinks he's doing the right thing and plays on people's emotions.) Hey, maybe Mamiya was originally a Word-bound Flowerchild, and his roses are Servitor Shedim. ^_^ ~S.D. Ryukage http://fly.to/sd_nexus ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The idea of a samurai is a warrior who already serves, one who has already found his master and has his place in the social order, a knight in the feudal system answerable to a lord but in charge of his own particular patch. Hugo Fitzduane, 'Games of the Hangman' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:04:36 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Karakash (Re: Whee, yet more IN questions. ^_^;;) > At 6:02 AM -0400 5/18/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: > >HAS ANYONE HEARD FROM JOHN KARAKESH?! > > Not only have I not heard from him... I had to u-n-s-u-b him for bounces. > O:< Crap. - -Perry, Kfc perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu NEW WEB PAGE!!!!!! http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:09:17 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> Karakash (Re: Whee, yet more IN questions. ^_^;;) At 11:58 AM 05/18/01 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 6:02 AM -0400 5/18/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: > >HAS ANYONE HEARD FROM JOHN KARAKESH?! > >Not only have I not heard from him... I had to u-n-s-u-b him for bounces. John has been having major problems that have, among other things, affected his connectivity. I doubt that any online method of reaching him will function right now. (No, I won't discuss the problems -- they really aren't my business, except tangentially, and I'm not comfortable sharing any more information than what I've already provided.) - -- | "There's a silence that speaks | hackard@io.com | So much louder than words +------------------ | Of promises broken..." | | -- Pink Floyd, "Sorrow" | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:35:50 -0500 From: Santiago Subject: IN> Mirror In Nomine : The History All this discussion of dark/backwards IN has prompted me to go ahead and post this alternate universe I've been developing. It's a backwards scenario, with a fundamental difference in the way the Eden experiment panned out, and with who decided things needed changing. Changed mechanics and short summaries of all the Archons and Generals will be posted soon, though I'll be all gone next week to Apple's Worldwide Developer's Conference, and may not find much time to do the needed fine-tuning. - ---- In another world, everything was much as our own for a great many eons, and we pick up the story shortly after humans come onto the scene... The Eden Experiment Humanity was dirty, cruel, and small-minded--but some angels proposed that within them they must possess a certain divinity, otherwise God would not protect them. Lucifer proposed an experiment, with which he hoped to satisfy everyone's curiosity. The experiment would create an idyllic setting, where humans could live without wants or needs. If they could survive in paradise, then they deserved the deference of the angels; their free will would be respected. If not, then God's hope was misplaced. God agreed. First, Lucifer proposed, two perfect specimens would be needed, one male and one female. They would be created from scratch, since he didn't want the experiment tainted by subjects who had already experienced the harshness of ordinary life. God created a man--whom Yves named Adam--and a woman, Lilith. He created them with the knowledge of speech to give them every advantage possible. Lucifer introduced himself to the two humans, and gave them a quick primer on free will. The two humans lived together in peace and harmony for several years. Lucifer was satisfied. Michael, however, had also observed the experiment. He saw two individuals who bore God's most glorious gift, free will, but which had no opportunity to exercise it. The idyllic environment of Eden did not motivate the two humans to do anything other than exist. Michael felt that perhaps Lucifer's explanation of Free Will had not been sufficient. Only if the humans truly knew what their options were could they be said to have fully chosen their path. God agreed. And thus, another human was created, Eve. Michael showed her the garden, and he showed her the world, then he gave her the choice of living forever in the perfection of Eden or of exploring the unknown world. Eve almost immediately chose freedom over security, and wandered off in pursuit of whatever she might find. Michael and God discussed the matter for a long, long time. The Exodus Afterwards, Michael went and spoke with many of the angels about these things. He talked about safety and security versus freedom and individuality, elaborated on whether the greater good should always be pursued, and what levels of negative local effects are acceptable. Many of the angels agreed with him. Many did not. Kobal at first was torn. Laughter is best in groups, but ultimately seeing the humor in something is very personal. David was deeply concerned about his good friend Michael, and wondered why anyone could see anything wrong with groups. Malphas truly felt that individual expression was very important to the wellbeing of a group. Eli listened a lot but said little, oddly enough for him. Beleth knew that fear came from within, and the best way to stop it was the comfort of others. Uriel felt that deviation was a sign of impurity. In time, a consensus was reached. Many felt that the path they had been following all along, of obeying the wishes of some distant overseer, was not the way, and that they too had free will which should be exercised. Doing so would not be easy among others still devoted to the blind ideals of the group, and it was felt that going elsewhere would be best for all involved. And so it was that the great Exodus began, where fully a third of the Host followed Michael as he led them out of Heaven to found a new homeland. At the gates of Heaven, Lucifer stood blocking the way. Michael marched right up to him, and Lucifer put out his palm, saying, "Do not do this, my friend, or else you shall regret it for all time." Michael stared down at his longtime companion, and simply said in a calm, even tone, "Step aside." For an interminable moment, their eyes locked, and something flashed between them, an echo of something that would never be, and then Lucifer stepped aside. And a third of the Host marched out of the gates of Heaven that day, and not a drop of blood was shed, and not a blow was struck. And when the last one had passed, the gates swung shut for the first time, leaving only Lucifer staring sadly outwards. Michael and those who chose to go with him (for they were not his followers, merely companions by choice) walked long and far, till at last they reached a spot where to go any further would merely bring them closer to Heaven again. It was here that Michael turned and spoke, "We shall found our new home here, that we may do as we choose far from the oppressive mantle of Heaven." And Gebbeleth, who had always been fond of gathering information to his bosom, asked of Michael, "And what shall we call this place, if it is not Heaven?" Michael thought for a second, then replied, "Hell. Our home shall be known as Hell," and a small wave spread out, forever altering the Symphony, as the first thing named by someone other than Yves came into being. "And what shall we call ourselves, for clearly we are no longer Angels of Heaven?" asked Gebbeleth again. "Demons," said Michael, "We shall be like Angels, but different, in that we shall choose our path." And the multitude nodded and looked at each other in satisfaction, and tried the new words on their tongues, and liked how they sounded. The Bridging At first, the Angels hoped that their brethren would change their minds and return, but none did. Then, they came to realize that the choice the others had made was permanent one, forever altering their mindset. Much discussion was carried on about what would happen now. At length, the Seraphim Council, guided by the everpresent voice of the Metatron, decided that for now it would wait, but that it would begin building fortifications, to prevent the wayward Angels from interfering with the mortal realm and the divine plan mapped out for it. The Demons, as they called themselves, built their new homes, and continued to visit the realm of Earth much as they had always done, but found that it was becoming harder and harder to do so. Michael realized that relations with Heaven were becoming frostier by the day, and that something would have to been done to prevent being cut off from the world. So, he headed to the realms of humans to see if the situation appeared different from there. After some observing, he had not made any progress, so he sat down to ponder the situation. After sitting on his stone for a night and a day, thinking, who should come down the path next to him but Eve, in her travels of the world. Surprised at seeing each other, Eve joined him to discuss their situations. She had seen much of the world, but much of it was the same, and so she was looking for new things to explore and new quests to overcome. Michael wanted to ensure the continued access of his companions to the realms outside Hell. In particular, he wanted to keep helping the humans, as he had done before. To this, Eve questioned him, "But, if Heaven were to shut its doors to you, how could this block your travel to Earth? Is Earth not the realm of humans? Should we not be the ones to choose who we let wander among us?" "Yes, but it is your decision to do so," replied Michael. "Well, in that case, I choose to let you visit the Earth, and shall endeavor to help you in your future efforts, whatever they may be." With that, a change shook the stone upon which they sat, and a tether of Choice formed, yawning straight into the heart of Hell, where Michael had declared its existence. Michael saw that they key to ensuring that the borders of the realms were open was the efforts of the humans, with their special place in the divine order, and returned to Hell, with Eve at his side. The Schism Over time, the Angels and the Demons became increasingly hostile towards one another. The Angels felt that the humans should be following the divine plan, and that the Demons were interfering with the order of the universe. The Demons felt that the Angels were trying to deprive the humans of the free will which they had been granted. As the fortifications of Heaven grew, the Demons sensed themselves gradually isolated and almost cut off from the Symphony, but in the celestial quiet caused by its muffling, they perceived ways to play their own notes and alter the Symphony in subtle ways. As the conflict between the two sides escalated, each organized into hierarchies based about the Words that defined the core of each celestial's being. In Heaven, those on the Seraphim Council were given the title of Archon, and placed as the rulers of Heaven, following the wishes of God when he relayed them. In Hell, Michael was agreed by one and all to be best suited for leadership, and the brightest and strongest of the others were chosen as his Generals in the great War that would be unfolding. It was at this time that something strange happened. Before, all the souls of the dead had gone to Heaven, eventually finding their way up Jacob's Ladder into the Upper Heavens. Now, however, souls of occasional deceased humans somehow managed to worm their way into Hell instead, to continue their existence among the Demons. It was shortly after this that a strange Demon whom no one had ever seen before walked up the first tether of Choice, seemingly coming from nowhere, and introduced himself as Kronos. After a brief discussion with Michael, he was added to the ranks of Generals. At that point, things got interesting... The Modern Age Heaven, in the interest of watching over the world, created a new choir tasked with observing the humans and specially tuned to detect the disturbances caused by Celestials tinkering with the divine plan. These Grigori, as they were called, soon became an important arm of the forces of Heaven. Hell, in turn, did much exploring with the creations of new bands of Demons, as they felt that variety was a good thing. Eve, in particular, listened to the complaints of some of her fellow humans, who wished to go back to the world they had known, but to which they were now dead. So, she attempted to attach a vessel to a human soul, but it wouldn't stick. She experimented, and ultimately discovered that humans needed to have extra forces layered on before such a melding could be effected. In doing so, she enhanced some hidden part of human nature and created something that was more than the sum of its constituent elements. In honor of her, these new beings were named Evim, and it soon became one of the primary objectives of Hell to save up the essence needed to upgrade into Evim those souls who wished it, so they could be sent back to the Earth they loved. As the War over the ultimate course of the universe heated up, both sides found a need never before encountered, the need to conceal information from others, and even reveal information that had no basis in reality. This concept, called lying, could not be reconciled with the celestial tongue as it was. So, both sides altered and expanded upon the language they had always known, enabling new forms of expression. Both sides developed languages that allowed the stating of things that were not wholly believed, and over time this new form of expression was favored for everyday usage, allowing for the invention of tact, as well as guile and subterfuge. - -- - -- Santiago ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2233 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.