From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon May 28 21:34:37 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27509 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 21:34:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id VAA25250 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 28 May 2001 21:33:49 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 21:33:49 -0500 Message-Id: <200105290233.VAA25250@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2245 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, May 28 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2245 In this digest: IN> Re: Agents in hell IN> Re: IN CCG Re: IN> IN CCG? Re: IN> IN CCG? IN> The 'Angel' of martyrdom IN> Paper on the Purity Crusade ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:07:49 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Re: Agents in hell > So, just how hard is it to have an agent in Heaven, or Hell? Having > contacts on the other side on the Corporeal is a load easier; let's look > at the difficult cases. All good points, but the best operatives would be humans. A SOG with an Infernal Rite or Attunement can infiltrate Hell quite easily; making sure that their behaviour will land them in Shal-Mari, Perdition or Stygia would be essential for them to be useful. Of course, they need to have access to useful information when there, which complicates matters. Still, all three realms allow for humans to gain some minor influence, and if the agents feed what information they acquire to Heaven, Litheroy should be able to piece together a lot of what is going on. IIRC, Beth had a fit when I suggested giving a Saint a green, horned vessel so that they can pass as Lilim when Celestial, otherwise that would be the ideal way to infiltrate Hell. Something which isn't considered in the rules is what happens if a MALAKITE decides that Hell is right. Tricky, but if the Malakite decided that demons were not inherently evil, but part of God's plan, then he might be willing to help Hell survive (counting on the Light of Heaven to protect the Host). As the Malakite can't Fall, he could continue operating as an agent until caught. Dissonance is actually not a problem if he's actually following his oaths. Another disturbing option would be what would happen if a DP removed the Ethereal Forces of a human who'd achieved their Destiny and replaced them with the Ethereal Forces of a loyal demon who was a skilled spy. The human would effectively have been mind-wiped and reprogrammed to serve Hell. They'd be caught sooner or later, the angelic resonances are ideal for detecting spies, but they might be useful short term, and Kobal might decide it was worthwhile purely for the humour value. James. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:21:51 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Re: IN CCG David Edelstein wrote: > (1) Each player is a Superior (rather than a Methusaleh). I thought the > IN CCG would work better if Superiors can "build" Servitors, rather than > having a preset selection with which to create a random Crypt (ala > Jyhad). You could build up relievers, but I think established Celestials should already exist. After all Superiors can't just create someone with a Role/6. > (2) The problem this presents is that some Superiors are more likely to > be antagonistic than others. Archangels will obviously go after Demon > Princes, but what if everyone chooses to play one side? The setup would > probably require making sure there's a good balance of rival Superiors. Even on the same side, competition will occur, and battles will occur over Tethers etc. Even friendly AA's will contest tethers which can support either Word. Consider an 'honor victory' in L5R - engaing the other player is not necessary. Similarly an IN CCG should have a 'influence victory' as the Superior becomes the most influential being in existence. > (3) The premise would be that the Superiors involved are fighting for > dominance in a particular city. probably a good idea; this also allows for AA's to contest each other more fiercely, as they aren't going for a kill. Also, an equivalent of Political Actions where you can persuade the Seraphim Council to order your rival to move resources to counter a problem in another city would be options. Alex Liddell wrote: > What do you think of that little idea? Sunrise/Sunset for player turns is a good idea. I'm not so sure about using the double sides for Corporeal/Celestial. Firstly, vessels should be attachable/removable; secondly, we need something for Falling/Redemption. Daiv wrote: > I'm Wondering if you, or anyone on list for that matter, is at > all familiar with the Disk Wars games No. Where can we learn more? Has anyone whose currently a Pyramid subscriber mentioned this on the CCG list? James. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 09:54:17 -0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> IN CCG? (OT bit) im very outy of date i think with the ccg debate, ive been moving house with some freinds. (BaqOnTopic) i used to play Spellfire, it was a cool game, i prefered it over MtG, i dont know if many other folks played it on this list but it was a goom simple game, you had your heroes/villains (split in to warriors, mages, rogues, clerics, monsters and psionicists) , magic items, cleric spells, preist spells and psionics. It was a simple game none the less, you had to get you land cards out and when your enemy attacked you deffended with a hero/villain/monster and if you lost the combat that land was razed/destroyed, if you won, you got some extra cards from the draw pile. This is probly way ot really for an IN list but its a good ccg anyways. If any one else here knows the game, try to convert that over to an IN ccg, it would work perfectly. heroes had ratings, 1-50, this was the level they were and you had to beat that level with your own hero +spells +magic items. convert that rating in to forces and hey presto, instant ccg with similar powers and items. Any ways check it out if you can. Cass - -There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole- Murphy's Law, Combatants Edition. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:31:19 -0500 From: Santiago Subject: Re: IN> IN CCG? >i used to play Spellfire, it was a cool game, i prefered it over >MtG, i dont know if many other folks played it on this list but it >was a goom simple game... Actually, I always though Spellfire was a terrible game. There was no balance whatsoever. If you bought enough cards, you could stuff your deck with the biggest bonuses available at no cost. There was NO balancing mechanism, such as having to spend mana or blood. It was Mr. Suitcase all the way. Jyhad, in my opinion, had one of the most balanced systems, at least prior to the expansions (I still refuse to use all those VTES-backed cards). In particular, rare cards were just different or outright weird, not necessarily more powerful; you actually wanted less of them. Common cards made up 60%-80% of any good deck. And, Jyhad had a very strong political element. It allowed several completely different strategies for winning, primarily rapid bleeding, manipulative voting, and direct combat. As such, it's one of the games closest to what most of us would like an IN CCG to be like. Additionally, having been an early game and from WotC, a substantial fraction of CCG-interested people on the list have at least passing familiarity with it. Thus, it's the most logical starting point. - -- - -- Santiago ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:05:57 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> The 'Angel' of martyrdom > From: "Janet Anderson" > Subject: Re: IN> Re:Call for Papers. > >>Yours in God, >>Kushiel, >>Angel of Martyrdom >>Habbalah of Death. > > Somebody go Redeem this guy. > > Janet Anderson > (I'm always impressed when someone writes up a demon that an angel would > seriously *want* to redeem instead of just soul-killing them and be done > with it.) Thank You! To make his redemption [hah!] simpler, have his write-up: Kushiel Habbalah Baron of the Undead Kingdom "Angel" of Martyrdom Corporeal Forces: 3 Strength: 1 Agility: 11 Ethereal Forces: 6 Intelligence: 12 Precision: 12 Celestial Forces: 6 Will: 12 Perception: 12 Word Forces: 10 Vessel: human/1, +2 Charisma...Kushiel has several of these, of varying ages & either gender. Skills: Artistry(Storytelling/6, Writing/4),Dodge/3, Fighting/6, Emote/6, Fast Talk/5, Lying/6, Knowledge (Human Psychology/3, Martyrs/6, Politics/1, Religion/4), Move Silently/3, Ranged Weapon(rifle/1, short bow/1), Savoir-Faire/6, Small Weapon(Short Sword)/4, Tactics/3. Songs: Attraction (Corporeal/1, Ethereal/4, Celestial/4), Blood(All/6), Charm(All/3), Hysteria/6, Memory(All/2), Nemesis(All/2), NC:Wings/3, Opening (Corporeal/1, Ethereal/4, Celestial/3), Possession/5, Projection (Corporeal/4), Revulsion (Ethereal/4), Shields (Celestial/1), Transfiguration/4. Attunements: All of Saminga's attunements, Baron of the Undead Kingdom, Habbalah of Dark Humor, Demon of Martyrdom. Demon of Martyrdom: Whenever Kushiel uses his resonance to goad a target into sacrificing themselves for 'the cause' the target subtracts Kushiels' Ethereal Forces from any resistance rolls; Kushiel subtracts his Celestial Forces from any non-violent attempt to neutralise him (verbal persecution is considered 'violent'); the Martyr's Cry attunement. Martyrs' Cry: If the possessor of this attunement is killed by an avoidable martyrdom, add their total Forces to any attempt by anybody to remember what they've said, done, or to record or pass on the memory of the martyr. If the martyr is soul-killed, their Ethereal Forces will at some point during the next decade attach to a human who in addition to having a semi-conscious knowledge of the Martyrs' life, will acquire the Discord (Obsession - spreading the tale of the Martyr) at a level equal to the gained Ethereal Forces. This can increase the humans Potential Forces, but they are still limited to 5 Ethereal Forces. Kushiel will happily give this attunement out to anyone who wants it; Soldiers of Hell serving Habbalah frequently possess it. Rites: Kill someone in such a way that they are remembered as a martyr; be unnecessarily martyred [+3 essence]; use the story of a martyrdom to encourage acceptance of your beliefs; punish a human for refusing to be martyred for a cause they believe in; inflict a guilt trip on a human using the tale of a famous martyr. Set by Uriel to keep religious beliefs Pure, Kushiel spent several centuries wandering the Roman Empire, arguing religion and, increasingly, encouraging the Faithful to remain true to their beliefs. He found that humans are not the most logical of creatures, and that all too often a story of a hero and/or martyr was more effective at reinforcing a humans belief than the most ironclad argument. As he grew more skilled at telling the tales of famous martyrs, he eventually came to the attention of the Roman authorities who ordered his death. While in prison awaiting this, Kushiel was able to comfort fellow prisoners somewhat by assuring them that the tales of their martyrdom would reinforce the faiths of their fellow believers. When he came out of Trauma, he was flattered to find himself thanked and considered a hero by the Blessed, many of whom had considered recanting. Returning to the Corporeal plane, Kushiel was on fire to spread the tales of his fellow martyrs, and to help prepare humans for Heaven. Following the conversions of Constantine & Uriel to Christianity, Kushiel was Distincted and was being considered for the Word of Martyrs when the Purity Crusade began. Although at best an ordinary combatant, Kushiel's knowledge of when and where the Ethereals had persecuted the peoples of the Book made him an ideal guide and he earned his second Distinction during the Crusade. Then Uriel was put on trial, and recalled to the Higher Heavens. Kushiel had been a witness at the trial, telling the tales of the persecutions and atrocities committed by the Ethereals on the Peoples of God. Alone of those present Kushiel was certain that Uriels' recall was a reward - after all, it was God's way to reward faithful humans by drawing them heavenwards, away from their intolerant and ignorant persecutors; clearly God had granted the same privilege to Uriel. Although he missed his old Superior, Kushiel immediately swore allegiance to Laurence, spurred on by having witnessed God personally promote Laurence to both Archangel and Commander of the Hosts of Heaven. Then everything started to go wrong. Rumors spread, that the Purity Crusade had been wrong, that the Ethereals had been innocent, even that Uriel had been destroyed by God! Kushiel fought the slanders as best he could, but realised that it was pointless. The Ethereals were dead, perceived as innocent victims - martyrs even. Arguments and facts were useless, only the bloodshed mattered. Just as the Church had been built on the blood of the martyrs, now the Ethereals would wax strong on the blood of their fellows. Only the bloodshed mattered..only their deaths...what could compare to Death as an argument? Kushiel was half mad when he Fell, and flew to Abaddon ranting that only Death was important, that nothing else could change the world. Saminga gladly accepted him, and proposed him for the Word of Martyrdom, which Kushiel eagerly fostered. Kushiel thrived serving Death. His understanding of the human psyche made him incredibly effective at wresting control of Tethers formed by martyrdom away from Heaven - each of his Distinctions was earned by taking a tether. The Host became depressingly used to losing to him; when outclassed Kushiel refuses to fight, so that killing his vessel achieved nothing bar creating another martyr; when he outclasses his opponents he will congratulate them on their bravery and assure them that he will remember their sacrifice and spread the tale of their martyrdom (and does so, in ways which will strengthen his Word). All too often Malakim have lost vessels to him while attempting to allow the retreat of other angels or of humans, only to discover that Kushiel has goaded their charges into 'not abandoning the defender who gave his life for them' and drawn them to their deaths. The abilities Saminga has granted him are ideal for supporting his Word - his tricks include Transfiguring the corpse of a martyr and rotting the flesh of a human who has refused martyrdom "because you're not meant to be alive". And Kushiel remembers his martyrs. He will gladly tell the story of any martyr, and eagerly collects tales of martyrdom. Not only does this support his Word, it also eases the pain he feels; for he does grieve for his charges. He just knows that he must drive them to their deaths for their own wellbeing. A number of the humans he drives to martyrdom end up in Heaven, of course, but not all; barely a handful. The vast majority who end up in Hell (having fulfilled their Fate of a pointless death that inspires other to revenge and/or equally pointless deaths) infuriate Kushiel. Was it all for nothing? He drove them on, inspired them, lead them, sometimes even died with them and they STILL were not worthy of Heaven. They feel the fury of a Habbalite scorned, a fury that will not pass until he hears of one of his charges proving worthy of Heaven. Between his love of (true) stories of martyrs and his genuine pleasure in hearing of martyrs being accepted in to heaven, it's not surprising that he gets on well with the Servitors of Revelation, especially as he knows that they will not corrupt the tales he tells them. The Game hates this, but doesn't dare do anything about it - they realise that arresting him would create another martyr, and possibly start a revolt among the ranks of the Habbalah. Kushiel knows this, and the thought is slowly growing in his mind - - when will his true martyrdom, his soul-death, be appropriate? The thought eases the pain he feels, so he spends an increasing amount of time considering the options. Arrested by Asmodeus? Challenging Laurence to duel? He once squared off against David, throwing a bible at the Archangel to allow him to strike Kushiel down. The pity in David's eyes still disturbs him, so he won't try that again. Any being who can show Kushiel where his soul death is needed would be well rewarded, gaining his attunement at the very least. James. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 19:33:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Paper on the Purity Crusade It's too big to post, so you can see it here at: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine/proceedings/Tech.htm 3 things: 1) Loved the papers that I've seen so far. I'll create a page for this one of these days. It might take a while: it looks like I'm about to relocate to Maryland. 2) For those that asked, anyone who wants to write one of these can. No continuity worries: details aren't as important as an interesting take on the Purity Crusade. Heck, you can even make it canonical. :) 3) Sorry, Beth. I needed a good reference, and Archives seemed logical. ;) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/29/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2245 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.