From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Jun 3 01:07:19 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA19992 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 01:07:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id BAA02367 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 01:07:00 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 01:07:00 -0500 Message-Id: <200106030607.BAA02367@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2251 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, June 3 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2251 In this digest: IN> A demonic parable.... Re: IN> A demonic parable.... IN> Yes, Consider the freaks, why don't you? RE: IN> Yes, Consider the freaks, why don't you? IN> Re: Call for Papers Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast Re: IN> Re: Call for Papers IN> Re: Call for Papers Re: IN> Re: Call for Papers Re: IN> Yes, Consider the freaks, why don't you? IN> A parable for demons II Re: IN> May 13, 2001 (ML) IN> New Discord Re: IN> May 13, 2001 (ML) IN> Mirror In Nomine : Celestial Mechanics 2 - Demons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 22:10:46 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> A demonic parable.... >(snicker) Yeah, that sounds like a story Azzie would >popularize. >To a T. :) Well I wanted to answer 1:) Where the demon of Stale Bong water came from 2:) Why he was such an abject lesson in Hell 3:) Show that really...HELL IS NOT FAIR... Serve all you want....Fufur is still going to get a princeship before you do so kick back, have a few brewskies, and make up your next report. and ASMODEUS WILL STILL KILL YOU... 4:) and show some of the day to day "morals" of Hell are drilled in early on. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 19:18:37 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> A demonic parable.... Charles Phipps wrote: > Well I wanted to answer > > 1:) Where the demon of Stale Bong water came from He's in Superiors 4. - -- Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 00:23:22 -0700 From: Anthony Damiani Subject: IN> Yes, Consider the freaks, why don't you? Considering the archangels, are we today, hmmm? My, my. How philosophical. How charming of you to take an interest in a subject of such obvious personal interest to me. Allow me, my friend, to give you the insider's perspective, as it were? When it all boils out, they're freaks and madmen. Every last living one of them. Each of them is unable to see anything beyond their own narrow, myopic little world view. Now, naturally, all angels are a little bent to begin with-- it does something to a being, beleiving yourself nothing more than the implement of God's will... twists a being about inside. But the Archangels are worse. Do you understand what it means to be bound to a word in the symphony? The bond that Superiors feel is stronger. And they exist solely in the light of this word-- /forever/. To David, the world is solid, unchanging, eternal. To Janus, the essence of virtue is change. Clearly, the truth lies in between, but neither of them will ever truly glimpse it. Jordi wallows in his animal squalor, and seems to believe that by viewing humans as insignificant, he can somehow make up for neglect of the animal kingdom by the part of the others. Lawrence is a two-thousand year old child, desperately attempting to fill boots he'll never fit, a hired sword seeking to wield an army. Dominic keeps exerting excessive vigilance as though it will atone for a single error at the dawn of time. Both see the world in pure black and white terms, ignoring both the grey and the glorious, glorious color. The list goes on... Ah! But by now you'll be thinking that I'm biased on account of my affiliation! Oh, no, my dear. Nothing could be further from the truth! I am an objective observer of their many, many flaws. Consider Haagenti, who sees the world as some sort of delicacy to be consumed, and who is painfully bitter and scarred by long gone trauma and swears vengeance in absence of all reason. Or consider Kobal, for whom even the most profound and solemn revelation is but a senseless gag? Andrealphus for whom nothing beyond the stimulus of his senses truly exists, and who obsessively hurts those close to him, to prove to himself that he does not care. Lilith's usurious mercenary manner, seeing everything in terms of price? In Saminga's mad, sick, self-absorbed little world, he imagines himsef the king of hell and the only force in the universe. Kronos? Like Yves, obsessed with the extreme possible outcomes, but the very existence of both Heaven and Hell, proves that neither of them can truly be right. What kind of sick twisted beings are these princes of the symphony? Do you see why we must oppose them? They're all so /small/, so incapable of understanding the /true/ nature of the symphony. But not you. Oh, my dear, dear friend, not you. You and I-- we're a different breed.... special. We alone can see the truth. From the beginning, this was His Plan. God let the symphony be divided into sides. A multiplicity of perspectives, none of them completely true, struggling, contending to be right, none of them truly able to understand. The Rebellion proves it-- the very nature of the world isn't a pristine and indivisible truth, it is the essence of plurality. Let a hundred flowers bloom? Yes, let a hundred schools of thought contend! A human said that, you know. You see, the Archangels and the Demon Princes-- their limitation is that they're so terribly /small/, yes? They see the symphony through lenses tinted by their own nature, so in the end, all they ever see is themselves. We are better than them because we can see both sides of the coin. We know that the sum all of being can't be distilled to simple, self-absorbed statement imparting some all-transcendent meaning. Just remember, though that there are only two kinds of people in this world-- people, like us, who understand, and people like them who never will. Most things tend to boil down like that, don't they? Us and them. -Malphas to host. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 05:24:43 -0600 From: "Julian Mensch" Subject: RE: IN> Yes, Consider the freaks, why don't you? This... is wonderful. I'm really impressed, and it colors how I'm going to use Malphas in my own chronicle. Thank you very much... - -- Julian Mensch ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 22:00:24 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Re: Call for Papers I believe that I am supposed to begin my presentation by introducing myself. Such foolishness. Will you believe me? You can see by my form that I was birthed in the Marches, so you will all insist that I am the product of human dreams, that I have no independent existence, that my early memories are delusions, created when I was created. You neglect to consider that I KNOW the part that human dreams plays in my make up, that I understand this as well as you understand your resonance, as well as a mortal understands breathing. I did not begin with a human dreamer. I existed before he did, proving to be a headache to the King of the gods. I was not One then, but instead a thousand spirits, each with their own glade or grove. It took the mightiest dreamer of his generation to unite me, as he united the lands that my city ruled - after I found him, after I taught him. I watched over him in many forms and guises. And just as his mundane work was sullied by his penchant for pushing those close to him away - to be precise, over cliffs - his unifying me was twisted, merely a desire to create a sex toy to dally with through the night. Do you wonder that we reject the humans who supposedly create us? Are you surprised that I feel no filial loyalty to the lecher? It shames me to admit that I did, at first; that while I fled his brutish embrace I felt compelled to build up his city, to protect and defend it. And grew to love the city, and took pleasure in defending it, a task I continue to this day, despite your pitiful attempt to bar me access to the Corporeal realm. Those years were hard. I already knew much, had a thousand viewpoints to choose from, but assembling those viewpoints into a single mindset was an arduous task. And throughout that time, I was obliged to advise the fool who had unified me, to guide his simple mind and teach him wisdom - a task which he should have provided me, if he was my creator! Has it never occurred to you that our refusal to accept that humans created us is motivated by mercy, so that we will not judge them as delinquent parents? Has it occurred to you that if he created me, that if I am merely his imaginings, that I would have had no useful advice to give him? No? Well, consider those points later. For the moment, it is enough that you know that I began as an abandoned foundling, and joined my fathers pantheon hungrily desiring a family. I swiftly realised that all had done so, and saw how our father used this to control us, and force us to accept his infantile decrees. And they were infantile, for he was as scarred and lonely as we were, having survived being devoured by his own father by the narrowest shave. But slowly we grew up. I am now famous for my wisdom, but I learned that the hard way, in what mortals now call the school of hard knocks. The others? Well, the fall of Troy taught us much - oh, how we suffered for our folly. We did not teach humans morals - that task we left to the philosophers; but we punished those who betrayed their kin. We knew how important family was - none knew better than us. And as the years rolled by we learned to let the humans play, and to guide then with care. I focused on my city, and helped the wise to create the first university - The Academy. Remember, at your Symposium, that 'Symposium' means 'drinking party': it was I who turned those drunken louts into the first scholars. The tasks you continue here began with me. The others helped in their own ways. We had learned to work with each other; as Rome spread her wings we learned to work with others. Uriel loved to boast of how he protected Rome, and kept it Pure, but we were the ones who did the work, guiding and guarding, watching and warning. We even accepted the Emperors into our ranks, giving them an incentive to care how they would be judged by future generations, to encourage them to noble actions. Continually Heaven claims that we have exploited and suppressed the mortals. Indeed? When did you last accept a human as an equal? Why does no human hold the title of Archangel? Because it is impossible? Bah - Lilith disproves that. Because you do not know how? Choose humans who you will accept into your ranks as Archangels, and we will show you how! But I was speaking of our defence of Rome, how we cared for the Empire that Uriel claimed as his own handiwork. And care we did, until the spread of the Christians stripped us of power, and we could defend the empire no longer. Where was Uriel, the Christian, then? Oh, but he destroyed Beelzebub, you say. For twelve long centuries we had shielded Rome from the might of Hell, and Uriel sacrificed it all to destroy one Demon Prince. To kill one, he sacrificed the Empire which had withstood them all...and worse, he boasted of his deed. And then, to add insult to injury, called us parasites! Impure! A blasphemy an insult to his God! It was not just his jealously at our long defence of the Empire he claimed as his own. He hated us because the eldest of us could remember before him, to when Heaven & Hell were one, until the Titans rebelled and drove you apart, drove your God away from his wife, so that they would have a place to dwell - the middle realms, the Corporeal and Ethereal planes. Laugh if you wish. It is preferable to having it used as an excuse for massacre. Yes, you killed most of the titans whom we did not. But not all. What of Kronos? Have you forgotten him? Oh, but no one knows where he came from. Of course not. Even the mortals have books which state that he ruled the Titans, books which predate his arrival in Hell. Tell me, how much work do you put into destroying those records, as you strive to destroy the truth of our words, that we predate you? Kronos fights your God because he always has, and knows that if Heaven and Hell are re-united all else will be destroyed. Or did you think that Armageddon was a reward? But Kronos is evil you say. Oh yes, I know that far better than you. He is no enigma to me; he was the first child to destroy his parents marriage. Kronos is very evil. But he exist, and his existence disproves so many of your claims. And there is another. I guessed that Prometheus would choose to come here, to flatter you and persuade you of his usefulness as an ally. It is not the first time. Have you forgotten that he betrayed the Titans, and fought beside the gods when father Zeus overthrew Kronos, banishing the surviving titans to the Far Marches. Prometheus will always seek to fawn at the feet of the powerful. What lies did he tell you? None you say? That he cannot here? Perhaps you are right - but a lie need not be stated to be inferred, and so believed. And yes, I have read his paper, read in amusement that because humans breed in the same way as any other animals that they are superior to both Ethereals and Celestials! If you accept this, then you should bow deeper still to the flies and cockroaches, who far surpass humans in their fecundity. If you still consider Prometheus' remarks to hold any value, then I suggest you speak to the Servitors of Dreams, so that you may be shown the beautiful dreamscpaes of the animal kingdoms; and to the Servitors of Jordi, to see the Tethers the beasts have caused. And remember to grovel before the mountains and oceans who created the first Tethers, long before humans existed. Human progress? Humans are as spiteful, greedy, cruel and vicious as ever. Do you truly believe that their increased ability to kill each other marks them as better? I outgrew that folly within a few years - why has it taken you millennia? So I have spoken of who I am, and of the Titans. What of the Purity Crusade? What did it mean, what was it about? It does not matter, for this...farce...of a conference is not about the truth. If we were strong, you would not permit such a discussion. No. Laurence and Khalid would lead a new crusade to destroy us. But because we are weak, and fading, you are happy to pretend to have second thoughts about the crusade, to pretend that you do not approve of what happened, so that you may wash your hands of your bloody deeds. No doubt you intend to shed a tear or two over us when we are gone, to persuade others that you are not the homicidal maniacs that your actions prove you to be. Whom will you deceive? All too many. I cannot stop you from tricking the fools of all worlds into believing you. You have won. But I could not stand by while Prometheus betrays his own people again. So I have shown the folly of his boot licking speech. And now I must arrange a fitting punishment for his treason. So I will go, and leave you to your speeches and crocodile tears. James. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 03:06:03 +0100 From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Backwards or Low Contrast In article <009701c0e24e$3a5be000$0800a8c0@Pavilion>, Phillip Des Jardins wrote: > As for Words, I specifically didn't swap anyone, with the possible > exceptions of Gabriel/Belial (still mulling over them). I wanted each > to be an honest approximation of their Fallen/Redeemed selves. I got a > lot of my inspiration from seeing other people's write-ups on some of > them (Most notably Maurice's Oops Cycle and I think it was Micheal > Walton who did Fallen Novalis and Micheal). The only people I didn't > change were Yves and Kronos, since I felt they weren't really capable of > Falling or Redeeming. They're just concepts in the Symphony, moreso than > any other Superiors. Funny, I've been working on the same idea off and on (I needed a displacement activity from my displacement activities), with much the same inspiration (see Moe, it *is* all your fault). I too didn't change Yves and Kronos; the one thing I did differently was to make Metatron the leader of the Rebellion -- the Voice starts talking for itself -- and have him kill Lucifer when the Archangel of Light revealed his corruption. > The Words: > Blandine: Princess of Desires Insanity, I thought, living wholly in dreams > Christopher: Prince of Immaturity I couldn't get a handle on a Fallen Chris. "Childishness" says my tatty notebook in a hopeful manner. > David: Prince of Prejudice Stagnation > Dominic: Prince of Tyranny Inquisition. Everyone is guilty, we just find out what they are guilty of. > Eli: Prince of Plagues A while back, someone wrote up Eli as Prince of The Cancer, meaning utterly unrestrained creation. I really liked that one. > Gabriel: Princess of Fire Or Wrath, of course :-) > Janus: Prince of Chaos Yup > Jean: Prince of Insanity Progress? The world must be improved? > Jordi: Prince of the Jungle The Beast, I thought, primal fear of being hunted as much as anything. > Khalid: Prince of Fanaticism Or Zeal. It amounts to the same, I suspect. > Kronos: Prince of Fate > Laurence: Prince of Carnage I left him with Swords, actually. > Litheroy: Prince of Forbidden Knowledge Working on the theory that DPs take a single-minded and deeply over the top attitude to whatever they would have as an AA, try Exposure. > Marc: Prince of Exploitation Or that really nice idea from the Queen of Hell riff, The Deal. > Michael: The First Balseraph, Prince of Betrayal. Micheal isn't > technically a Superior in this setting, as he takes Lucifer's place. Like I said, I did it differently. I really didn't see an alternative to War (at any cost) for Mike. > Novalis: Princess of Thorns Good one. The best I could think of was Wilderness. > Zadkiel: Princess of Isolation Yup. The other possibility I've tossed about is Obsession. > Alaemon: Archangel of Mysteries Could be. I'm trying to make Intelligence (in the spy sense) fit. > Andrealphus: Archangel of Love > Asmodeus: Archangel of Justice* Law, methinks. > Baal: Archangel of Valor Or Valour :-) > Beleth: Archangel of Fear > Belial: Archangel of Flame > Fleurity: Archangel of Relief Ah, much better. I must steal that! > Haagenti: Archangel of Gusto OOPS not withstanding, I want to try Provision > Kobal: Archangel of Laughter > Lilith: Archangel of Freedom > Lucifer: Archangel of Light (Deceased) > Magog: Archangel of Fortitude I'd forgotten all about Magog. Shame on me. > Malphas: Archangel of Individuality > Mammon: Archangel of Generosity. Too much of a reversal rather than the overextension I was trying for. How about Exchange? > Nybbas: Archangel of Communication > Saminga: Archangel of Death > Valefor: Archangel of Change Passage? > Vapula: Archangel of Knowledge Science! (Well, "The Scientific Method" isn't snappy enough, see...) > Yves: Archangel of Destiny Some of the implications of these changes are interesting on their own. For example, you'll note that the natural world (as in plants and animals) is now firmly on Hell's side. No AAs control anything that is not in some way "of man". It makes a twisted kind of sense, but it would make differences in the corporeal world. If the jungle really is actively out to get you, then civilisation would be in a much more precarious position. Hmm. John, please slap me. I don't need *another* displacement activity! - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 07:22:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Re: Call for Papers - --- james walker wrote: > I believe that I am supposed to begin my > presentation by introducing myself. > > Such foolishness. Good one. Athena seems to have ... issues ... though. :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/29/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 01:52:18 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Re: Call for Papers Dear Sirs, Much as I would like to address the Tri-Planar Symposium in person, the run around I was given while attempting to gain access to either the Ribkiel Project or the reputedly excellent Library Conduits has made this impractical. It is simply unreasonable to expect a mortal of my age to perform the rituals and ingest the drugs necessary to enter and then leave Heaven via the Pearly Gates - not to mention the complete lack of respect shown at the Gates for a scholar of my experience. However, given that my sole concern with your conference is to correct some basic misconceptions I believe that this missive will be sufficient. It would appear (judging from the handful of papers to which I have been granted access) that views in Heaven have been tainted by the same sort of woolly, wishful thinking that is quite common among the uneducated on Earth. Until now, it has been purely a matter of amusement to observe the outcries against the 'deaths' of fictional characters. I still remember how Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was obliged to revive Sherlock Holmes, the outrage expressed by the English populace at the death of their favourite hero overriding his artistic judgement. More recently, we have seen the movie industry sugar coat the historic tales to make them more acceptable to modern, overly sensitive tastes. Why the outcry? Because fools cannot distinguish between reality and imagination. To kill someone is, under normally circumstances, unethical. But for a writer to kill a character in the book they are writing is by no means unethical - it is purely an artistic decision. Imaginary characters have no rights, simply because they are not sentient beings. To call the death of a character in a book 'wrong' (unless you are critiquing the style of the book) is absurd. To object to the destruction of Ethereal spirits is equally absurd, for the same reasons. After all, the characters in a book are created in much the same way, and have the same, limited existence. There will, of course, be outcries against my statement that the Ethereal spirits are not sentient, particularly among those present who have not taken the time to carefully consider the matter. However, following my arguments should be well within the capabilities of the most obtuse student. Firstly, consider the following three terms: possessing a soul; possessing Free Will; being Sentient. They are, in fact, three ways of saying the same thing. I will be normally use the term Souls for the remainder of the paper, but the terms may be used interchangeably. Of the creatures in existence, angels & humans clearly have Souls, some of the higher animals may have, neither Ethereals nor Demons do. This will seem ridiculous to many, particularly those who are used to identifying a Soul with the possession of Celestial Forces. That possessing Celestial Forces does not guarantee having a Soul can be shown by considering the Undead - Mummies & Vampires both possess Celestial Forces but neither possess Souls. They are purely magical constructs, using a mortal human for parts, and should be treated as golems. What does guarantee having a Soul? As noted, possession of a Soul is another way of stating that you are Sentient or possess free will. The simplest way to demonstrate that both humans and angels possess free will and that neither demons nor Ethereals do is using Sorcery. Any competent Sorcerer can compel a demon or spirit to travel to the Sorcerer, and can then bind the spirit or demon into service. The effects cannot control either angels nor humans (excluding, of course, creatures which were once human, such as undead and ghosts). If a sorcerer attempts to summon an angel or human, the target of the ritual will be aware of the summons, but be under no obligation to respond. This is because what we do is determined by choice - each option is presented to you by your mind for evaluation. As the "respond to Sorcerous Summons" option rarely appeals, it is discarded by your application of free will - unless you decide that the summons is an annoying form of junk mail and turn up to prevent it happening again. What happens with a demon or Ethereal? Because they lack free will, they cannot choose whether or not they will respond. Instead, the summons enters their simple programmed minds in much the same way as a command typed into a computer. The summons will either be accepted or rejected depending on what other commands have been inserted - in effect, the sorcerer is competing with other sorcerers and similar being for control of the demon or spirit, with the demon/spirit obeying the most skilled sorcerer. It is worth noting that sorcerers tend to be above average computer programmers; a correlation caused by the similarity between the creatures we control and modern computers. Given the lack of sorcerous training available in Heaven, you may be dubious about trusting a source you cannot readily double check. This is quite reasonable, so I will now present an exercise which the humans present can use to demonstrate that Ethereal Spirits, at least, should not be considered as Sentient. (I am assuming for the exercise that you have earned the right to dwell in Heaven. This exercise may not be sufficient proof if performed by a less tolerable individual). Create, in your mind, a new creature. They don't have to be particularly special, merely different from the norm and not overlapping with established creatures. Perhaps the creature breathes vacuum, or something equally impossible. Now, don't bother to fix the image in your mind, simply let it fade into oblivion (for the untrained, the simplest way to do this is to think of something else). Now what has happened? You just began the creation of an ethereal spirit, and then snuffed it out by letting it fade. If the spirit had been sentient, two effects should have occurred: Firstly, your conscience, which as a Blessed Soul is well developed, should have objected strongly to this (you may have objected anyway - this does not disprove my point, it merely indicates that you have taken on board the belief that the spirit was real. Just as your conscience would not let you destroy a rock if you had been persuaded that the rock was alive). Secondly, violence in Heaven is, apparently, supernaturally prevented. Had you snuffed out a sentient being, you would have been committing violence against it and so should have triggered this prevention mechanism. Even if your conscience did object, the fact that other, fellow Blessed were not bothered by their consciences indicates that this is not instinctive, but instead the result of other factors. I think I can be sure that no one suffered from Heaven's defence mechanisms, or no human could survive there. I trust this example will convince most of those present that Ethereals are Soul-less. There is a more subtle objection which can be made to my claims about Ethereals. Even accepting that Ethereals are not necessarily sentient, perhaps some are? Perhaps the fact that many humans are too stupid to realise that their imaginings are not real results in them creating sentient spirits? My answer is no, for a simple reason. If a human believes that a tree, or a rock, or whatever is unusual, eg can talk, the result is a spirit which fulfils this function. The tree itself does not change. If the impossible happens, and sentience is created for a spirit, then it should not be part of the spirit, but instead should become a separate spirit; the spirit of the spirit of the tree. Of course, this would be endlessly recursive, which may be one of the reasons that this does not happen - no human has the power to create the infinite line of spirits necessary. Some angels may object to the idea that demons are not sentient, simply because those which used to be angels were previously sentient. This is understandable, but unjustified. The process of Falling clearly damages the personality without interfering with what are normally considered basic elements of personality, such as memory. The loss of free will would cause this. Further, demons who have both Fallen and been damaged in Celestial combat insist that Falling is more painful than the damage of combat, indicating that Falling does more fundamental damage. Finally - do you really believe that God would willingly allow the long torments of Hell to be inflicted on sentient beings? If we assume that Falling in angels, or being Damned/becoming Undead for humans, results in the end of Sentience, then what we see makes perfect sense. Those who cannot be tolerated no longer exist, but simulacrums of them continue, as a warning to others. Alternatively, the Damned and Demons may well be Ethereals themselves, as the ongoing belief in their existence results in the creation of Ethereals. This, of course, suggests a disturbing answer to the age old question of why God tolerates the existence of Evil - he doesn't, but because we are willing to believe that he does, ethereal spirits are created to replace every evil He destroys. This would mean that every problem is in the universe exists because we are willing to slander God. Assuming that you accept my arguments, the question is: where do we go from here? Fortunately, the development of computers has meant that even the stupidest of humans can understand that something need not exist all of the time. As such, we can work on encouraging people to only create ethereal spirits which only exist while they are being actively thought of, and 'switch off' in the same manner as a computer monitor, the rest of the time. This will end the continual flight of spirits into the Marches. Once this has been done, we can explore the option of doing the same to demons. If a demon only exists when needed as an example of the results of evil, much of the evil in the world will disappear, as the demons will not be able to wreak havoc during their free time - as they won't have any free time. These options allow for a much more ordered and beneficial society. trusting my dissertation will be of benefit, I remain, The Gray-Eyed Lord of Noon, VIIth of the XII. James. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 20:58:27 From: "Michael Cleveland" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Call for Papers >[Turning to the pair of pipe-smoking Blessed] Remember my deeds in your >sagas my friends! And know that I will recount yours to your God. Farewell! >James. > (quiet applause) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 22:00:48 From: "Michael Cleveland" Subject: Re: IN> Yes, Consider the freaks, why don't you? > Us and them. > > > -Malphas to host. > That was beautiful! Keep it up! Michael _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:29:55 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> A parable for demons II *Said in Belial's beetlejuice like voice* A long time ago in a symphony far far away... There was a beutiful young girl who loved her grandmother She one day journeyed into the woods to give her cookies. There she was met by a big bad Wolf Cherub.... The girl then pulled out a Soviet Flamethrower and torched the Big Bad Wolf Cherub before he could eat her. she then burned down the forrest and killed all those stinking fluffy looking animals who do nothing but mess on her lawn, steal food, and spread disease Then she went to grandmother who being a crochtety old &@*@ complained once to often The beutiful young girl burned the old bat in her soiled matresses and with the forrest fire it looked like an accident. A woodsman backed her up because the beutiful girl was a hottie and without the woods he needed to marry money with which the old bat now dead the beutiful young girl was rolling in. Our beutiful redhead then slept with the hunter and burned him up in his own fire which covered her up as she moved from city to city sleeping around and torching the places which free humanity from their material possesions and scum like grandma. If you share her pyro-fixation she may sleep with you too. The end. - -Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:29:03 -0400 From: "Jason F. McBrayer" Subject: Re: IN> May 13, 2001 (ML) On Tue, May 29, 2001 at 09:34:21PM -0700, Maurice Lane wrote: > A variant of this Song (Pick up Mail) is also > available: it will deposit the contents of a post > office box in front of the performer. Items too big > for the box may be acquired, at the cost of 1 Essence > for every item retrieved. This Song will sign for the > items. I feel like a munchkin for noticing this, but... This is a cheap way to temporarily get the Summonable feature on any item (not even necessarily a Corporeal Artifact) that the Soldier owns - -- mail it to yourself (possibly using the Song of Mail), and leave it uncollected. Then when you need it, use the Song of Pick-Up-Mail. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@carcosa.net | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:42:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> New Discord OK, please bear in mind that this has been created while under the influence of three shots of Parrot Bay rum and watching Dogma for the third time... :) Moe Graffiti (Corporeal) This unfortunate Discord only appears in Servitors of Stone: those with it are extraordinarily sensitive to strong emotional energy that has been expended by those around them. Actually, 'sensitive' is probably the wrong word: 'allergic' might be more accurate... Essentially, whenever a person indulges in strong emotion around an angel with Graffiti, an appropriate slogan, saying or short rant will appear somewhere on the angel's vessel or host. This graffiti cannot be removed or painted over, but may be covered by clothing: however, those with Graffiti must make Will rolls (at a minus equal to the level of the Discord) to wear any more than the bare minimum of clothing necessary to avoid being arrested or exposed (pardon the pun) as a supernatural being. Graffiti so generated will last for a number of days equal to the level of the Graffiti Discord. Reaction modifier: -1 for every level of the Graffiti Discord. ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/29/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:40:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "There's no gravity, the world just sucks." Subject: Re: IN> May 13, 2001 (ML) >> A variant of this Song (Pick up Mail) is also >> available: it will deposit the contents of a post >> office box in front of the performer. Items too big >> for the box may be acquired, at the cost of 1 Essence >> for every item retrieved. This Song will sign for the >> items. >I feel like a munchkin for noticing this, but... This is a cheap way >to temporarily get the Summonable feature on any item (not even >necessarily a Corporeal Artifact) that the Soldier owns >-- mail it to yourself (possibly using the Song of Mail), and leave it >uncollected. Then when you need it, use the Song of Pick-Up-Mail. Of course, things left sitting in Post Office Boxes are /never/ filched, taken out and lost, given to the wrong person, or generally spindled and mutilated. The easy way to curb abuses of this (if it even qualifies as 'abuse') is to just... smile at the player who does this, but have it work. Roll dice thoughtfully. Inquire as to wether anyone else would like to deposit any items while they're all at it. Smile some more. Etc. And if they don't get the message, well, accidents happen... It's got a built-in balance! - --JT ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:59:00 -0500 From: Santiago Subject: IN> Mirror In Nomine : Celestial Mechanics 2 - Demons [Continued from an earlier post] Breeds of Demons: Balseraphim [sic] Due to the truly divine nature of Seraphim, the highest choir, completely severing their connection to the Symphony after they left proved to be impossible. If one of these exiled Seraphim strains, it can still make out subtle impressions of Truth. They may employ the basic Seraph resonance by taking a penalty to their target number of the highest check digit they wish to be able to achieve. A success with a higher check digit is treated as the limit. However, as they explored new ways to interact with the Symphony, they discovered that they could bridge to the personal Symphonies of others more easily than to the true Symphony, allowing the other to peer inside the exiled Seraph. With a successful will roll, the listener will see the Truth behind a statement uttered by the Balseraph. Treat this as if the listener were a Seraph that had successfully resonated that statement with the check digit earned by the Balseraph. This only works on statements made by the Balseraph; it can't be used on any third party source. Unlike their angelic brethren, Balseraphim can lie when using this power, though doing so is very strenuous and painful, inflicting a point of dissonance whether successful or not. The dissonance condition for Balseraphim is the same as for Seraphim. However, the fundamental distinction between the two classes of celestials is that their concepts of truth are rather different. Balseraphim don't believe in an absolute Truth, only in truth relative to the speaker of a statement; they believe the question of truth only has meaning within a given context. As such, they tend to be more flexible than Seraphim, and will often dance dangerously close to a lie without touching it, so that the speaker will think that it was actually stated, rather than just implied. They understand that in some cases, certain truths are best phrased in a cautious manner or kept out of the picture entirely. Djinn Djinn also view themselves as the protectors of humanity, shielding them from the meddlesome interference of the angels and freeing them to seek their own route. They genuinely care about those they watch over, and make little secret of it. Similar to Cherubim, Djinn have the same resonance as in canon In Nomine, but their dissonance condition is that they may not take any action to help move their attuned closer to their Destiny (such as by encouraging conformity or unquestioning acceptance), or personally harm them. They will try and prevent others from harming them, though it is not actually dissonant for them to fail to prevent this, just emotionally painful. Mennonites As Ofanim are the embodiment of motion, ranging across the Symphony, their demonic analogues turn this motion inward, focusing their attentions to a sharp point. Their inhuman ability to concentrate is matched only by their ability to ignore everything else. The Mennonite resonance is multi-part. First, the check digit of a successful resonance check may be added to any Precision-based roll, or a roll requiring extreme concentration. The Mennonites' will is so strong that it reaches out and shapes the very Symphony itself to be more receptive to their actions in a small area. They do their fair share of Hell's fighting by sniping at the enemy. Second, a Mennonite may add the check digit of a successful resonance check to any attempt to recall a specific detail, if there is even the slightest chance that he has ever been exposed to such information. For example, a Mennonite that has ever flipped through a chemistry textbook might be able to remember the chemical formula of any given compound, but would not be able to use this skill to dig up any complex concepts in chemistry. Lastly, a Mennonite in Celestial form may make a resonance check to enter a patient wait state. In this form, they generate no disturbance due to being celestial, and attempts to perceive them are at a penalty equal to the check digit of the resonance check. They may remain in this state indefinitely, so long as they don't move at all. It may be ended voluntarily at any time. Mennonites find it dissonant to be driven to act hastily without considering the consequences of their actions. They often produce elaborate plans ahead of time, with options for all foreseeable contingencies; once putting their plans into action, they tend to act directly and efficiently. Additionally, failing a resonance-boosted precision roll with a check digit of six is dissonant, as the Symphony backlashes on their attempted tampering. In celestial form, Mennonites appear as great circular lenses of perfect quality and exceptionally sharp focus. Habbalah Habbalah see themselves as teachers and guides. It is their duty to enlighten humans as to their own special nature, reveal the infinite possibilities of the universe, and fan the flames that drive humans to excel. They are open and compassionate beings who shudder at the emotional straightjackets worn by their Elohite brethren. Inside, they all feel that the Exodus was not a deviation from God's plan, but rather an integral part of it, and that God ultimately wants all humans to overcome the confines set forth by the angels and achieve true greatness. The Habbalah resonance is two-fold. First, they are capable of sensing the motivations and passions of others. With a successful Perception check, they may consult the Elohite resonance table in the main In Nomine rulebook. However, the reading they get is not specific to the moment, but broader. Interpret "current state" as meaning over a span of days, weeks, or even months, rather than right this second. The motivations they sense are long-term driving factors. At higher check digits, they detect how the subject would react to long-term trends in his or her environment, not a specific, immediate action. Secondly, Habbalah may instill passion in other beings. With a successful Will check, a Habbalah may amplify some emotion that already exists in a nascent form within a person. For example, someone who keeps a small garden may have this blossom into a general fondness for the environment, and even become an activist. The check digit determines the magnitude of the amplification as well as how long it takes to come about. On a 1, the person may develop a slight interest in the subject over the next few weeks or months, and it may taper off eventually. On a 6, the subject develops a noticeable fervor within hours, leading to actions such as reading large numbers of books on a topic, trying to establish a close friendship with an individual, or obtaining the training needed to switch careers. This second use of the resonance may also be attempted even if the victim has no prior level of the passion to be instilled, but the victim may then resist with a successful Will roll. If the check digit of this roll is higher than the check digit of Habbalah's resonance check, the Habbalah will suffer a note of Dissonance as the subject's mind backlashes at the intrusion. Note that hatreds for or indifference to things can be instilled as well as fascination. Attempting to radically change someone's perspective is not possible with a single use of this resonance, though it can happen over time. Multiple uses of this resonance on the same individual with the same overall purpose must be spaced apart. After a successful use, one must wait an amount of time equal to the time given on the Geas table by (7 - the check digit). (So with a successful check digit of 6, one need only wait a day, while with a check digit of 1, one need wait a year.) After an unsuccessful use, one need wait the amount of time given on the Geas table by the check digit. In addition to backlashing their resonance on unreceptive subjects, Habbalah find it dissonant to act in a manner contrary to their true emotions about the subject at hand. Hypocrisy is the fastest way to become a cold bastard Elohite... In celestial form, Habbalah appear as physically perfect human beings, both beautiful and powerful, with a subtle undercurrent of sexuality. The entire surface of their celestial bodies is covered in fine tattoos of the most exquisite detail, unique to each Habbalite. Sometimes, the tattoos seem to shift and accommodate themselves to the mood of the Habbalite, an outward sign of their inner state. Shedim In the world of Mirror In Nomine, Shedim are powerful agents for motivating people from the inside out. In actuality, a Shedite's requirement is not to corrupt, but to bring the host into alignment with itself. Since all Shedim in the canon In Nomine universe are horribly corrupted pits of diseased filth spewed from the nether regions of vileness, it is no wonder that everyone thinks their dissonance condition to be what is stated in the main rulebook. In the world of Mirror In Nomine, they must bring the host to make a decision each day, of growing importance and repercussion as per the requirements for escalating sin for canon Shedim. These decisions should be of a personal nature, and ultimately reflect what the host wants in the long term, and while outside input is acceptable, the decision must truly be the host's and require taking some sort of stand, even if only against one's own apathy. (Examples: Starting an exercise program to get rid of and keep off those extra pounds, actually talking to that girl you've liked for weeks, quitting that job you've hated for years and telling that fat &*&$#@!! of a boss what he can do with his stupid mission statement, writing down your dreams every day because they're neat.) Impudites Impudites are warm, charismatic demons that genuinely like people and want to be their friends. The most common use of their resonance allows them to add the check digit of a successful will roll to the target number for any social test (treat it as bonus levels of charisma). When time for finesse is not available, Impudites can be a little more blatant. They can invoke their resonance on a subject by making a making a will roll minus the subject's Ethereal forces; the subject may then resist with a will roll, minus the Impudite's check digit. If this fails, the subject will treat the Impudite as a close personal friend for a number of minutes equal to the check digit of the failed roll. Lastly, Impudites are so charming, they can even coax the Symphony itself. Any time an Impudite gains essence from the Symphony, via a rite or daily regeneration, a successful will roll will let the Impudite double the essence gained. It is dissonant for Impudites to resort to any use of violence against humans, though they can attempt to subdue or incapacitate an opponent in cases of self-defense, or where doing so is necessary to keep humans from injuring themselves or others. Evim Evim retain much of their human nature, and can often fool the Symphony. With a successful will roll, they may reduce any disturbance they cause by a factor equal to the check digit, rounding down any fractions. If the check digit is one, rather than having no reduction, they actually cause no disturbance at all! In many other ways, the Symphony still treats them as human. They may interbreed normally with living humans, and their children are never Nephallim or other such abominations, though they do have a slightly increased tendency to develop a sixth force. In addition, their actions can create tethers, just as if they were still living humans. Lastly, the Light of Heaven, though unpleasantly bright, does not cause them any actual damage, even when focused through tethers. Evim do not have any sort of dissonance condition resulting from their band, as their pliable human nature is preserved. Note: No one has ever heard of Malakim or Lilim, though that doesn't mean there might not be one or two of them around under other names, the results of some odd tinkering by an inventive Superior... - -- - -- Santiago ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2251 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.