From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jun 11 22:30:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03021 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:30:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id WAA05874 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:29:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:29:03 -0500 Message-Id: <200106120329.WAA05874@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2259 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, June 11 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2259 In this digest: IN> Re: MarcFest : New Servitor IN> Re: Vesel Loss IN> Re: Embassies of Flowers/Brainwashing demons/Redemptions IN> Marc Fest - Organisation Re: IN> Carrot Juice is Murder Re: IN> I probably need to be told "NO" in a firm voice for this one... Re: IN> MarcFest: New Servitor Re: IN> Reaping what one sows... IN> MarcFest: Talents Re: IN> MarcFest: Talents Re: IN> MarcFest: New Servitor Re: IN> MarcFest: Talents Re: IN> MarcFest: Talents Re: IN> MarcFest: Talents IN> MarcFest: Money (was Talents) Re: IN> MarcFest: Money (was Talents) Re: IN> MarcFest: Money (was Talents) Re: IN> MarcFest: Money (was Talents) Re: IN> MarcFest: Money (was Talents) Re: IN> IN: question about vessel death Re: IN> IN: question about vessel death Re: IN> IN: question about vessel death Re: IN> IN: question about vessel death IN> Sup1 -- Error? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:29:55 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Re: MarcFest : New Servitor > > Think of him as the ultimate temp. [nods approvingly] I don't get the show reference - probably not shown out here or one of the many I've never watched, but just as a straight character, I like. James. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:13:26 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Re: Vesel Loss >> It's dead. Left behind on Earth, likely to be given a funeral and >> buried. >> >> > So given all that, I'm wondering if maybe you just lose the vessel >> > PERMANENTLY. >> >> Yes. > > Okay, that makes sense. Then how do you deal with a player who's out > his only vessel? If she's got character points lying around, fine, but > say a character gets slaughtered while fighting the good fight the first > time out...do you folks have established methods for dealing with that? > In other games, the obvious answer's just to go make a new character. > But in IN that seems silly, given that losing a vessel is just a hair > worse than having a song stripped from you...i.e. not the end of the > world (or more relevantly the character). Thoughts? There are various options. A lot depends on which way the PC is heading. If the PC is basically in good standing with their Superior, then all is well; you can always allow the PC to buy the Vessel with borrowed character points, and pay it back later. This is especially appropriate for a Characters first adventure; their Superior knows that the PC is still finding their feet. If they're not, well- there are other ways of getting Vessels that aren't normally tempting. Other Superiors can provide them - Lilith for Geases; Asmodeus should be willing to replace the Vessel in return for becoming a double agent - if the PC serves Gabriel, Janus or Eli then Dominic may be willing to as well. Marc is likely to Trade a Vessel for something of a equivalent value - say an artifact (assuming that the artifact IS the PC's, not their bosses' - one captured from the other side would be ideal). During my first campaign the party Malakite made the mistake of Vessel-killing a demon who had a Role as a cop (and on film, no less!); once he realised that every copper in the city was gunning for him, and that he couldn't just kill them because they were mostly good guys, he struck a deal with Nybbas for a new Vessel (Nybbas' condition was a Telegenic death for the old Vessel). If you don't need to replace the Vessel immediately, ie it's near the end of the gaming session, a one on one session in the Celestial Ream or The Marches to earn the character points run during the week is a great option. This is the option I've usually used in my games. If the PC is in The Marches, remember that the Old gods can replace Vessels - if the PC can make it worth their while. A Malakite might be willing to swear an oath to return to the Dream Realm ASAP to fight any demons who invade the Domain. Another desperate option is Limbo. Some Tethers 'leak' (Liber Castellorum p18) dumping the Celestial into Limbo - the Celestial can use repeatedly go up and down via the Tether until dumped into Limbo. Once there, the Celestial can spend essence (and optionally accept Discord) to build a Vessel (H&H p79-80). Although this is normally cause strife with the Game or Judgement, the PC may decide that it's worth it - I've yet to have a PC who didn't excel at getting themselves into trouble. Also, for Divine Fire & Creation, this may be an established way of acquiring Vessels, given how difficult it is to reliably contact their Superiors. No doubt other people have equally nasty ways of helping PC's regret losing the favour of their Superior. James. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:35:28 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Re: Embassies of Flowers/Brainwashing demons/Redemptions > I just had an idea. Elizabeth was kind enough to let me read through some > of her Betharan stories, and something in chapter 9 gave me an idea. > Novalis is the most peaceful and diplomatic of all Archangels, right? The > idea that hit me is this: how about embassies? They would be places of > neutrality, where angels of Flowers and perhaps Lightning and Destiny > could work to learn what motivates demons so that they could be better > Redeemed. I imagine the interactions would be different for each Word. Embassies would indeed be of interest to Flowers and Trade - and would need to contest control of them with Heaven's War Faction, although both groups would work together against The War, The Game, Drugs, Theft, Nightmares, and every other DP. With a population of less than 300,000 and nearly 300 embassies, Canberra is an interesting case study in why Diplomatic Immunity must have been Kobal's idea. Large numbers of DC/DX cars are driven by people who've never driven a car before, and they can't be booked for ANYTHING. (Some embassy staff have actually complained about this, as they aren't told when they're doing something wrong - some well meaning dipoes are rotten drivers because they've never got a 'friendly warning' from the police). They'll quite happily take drugs in public - or in front of the police; staff supplement their incomes by avoiding customs using diplomatic bag (not much of a problem in itself, but the flow of native animals OUT of OZ is infuriating); stories of rape and theft are common. Ugly. And of course, the primary purpose of an embassy is spying. Both sides of the War are going to be taking advantage of the flow of information through the embassies; the War factions of both sides will be determined to protect their interests and all too willing to blame set backs on their more peaceful 'allies'. Preventing mundanes from discovering about the War will be tricky. All embassy staff are closely monitored at all times, by both their own country and the host country. it's not uncommon for an embassy to be build with bugs in every component in the building. Granted that any celestial will have a high level Role, operations will still be tricky. Not impossible, of course. The PC Free Lilim in my first game had a well thought out Role as the teenage daughter of a Diplomat; this was both useful for the group and a wonderful plot hook for me, as she needed to turn up to various functions and protect her Role. Of course, given the numbers of embassies around the world, some will be controlled by Heaven. But their not really the place to hold demons captive. The most convenient place to hold a demon prisoner is the Locus of a Tether - - that way they can't afford to go Celestial. Once there - the demons EXPECT to be brainwashed. They're used to that. It's what any demon would do. Why is Novalis, Miss Peace, doing forcibly controlling people? (Pointing out peaceful solutions to their current problems fits better) Heaven has more ethical and subtler options. For starters, the angelic resonances allow the angels to tailor each redemption to each candidate. Given time, an Elohite can determine how the demon would react to any given circumstance; Mercurians can explain how the other demons were planning to take advantage of the prisoner (with a Seraph confirming the Truth of his words); and so on. On the examples you gave - Dark Humor was a brilliant idea. Others were okay. But consider: The Game - there is a simple game called (among other things) prisoner. It teaches the advantages of teamwork, and would be well known to The Game. Explaining the idea of Heaven as a single Team would be a concept that Gamesters could understand and respond well to. Drugs - they know that Drugs are bad. They don't care. They'll start caring after the first year of so of withdrawal. Hardcore- delegate this to the Gabrielites. What could be more Hardcore? What could do more damage to Belial? Fate - get them talking about their own Fate. They might get the idea. The Media - get them to watch, rate and work on stuff that Heaven wants done. Given that they get dissonance for not creating media stuff, they'll oblige. That way they're working for Heaven during Redemption, and may pick up a taste for quality (after all most of them probably respect Eli anyway - and some will have had plans to change Superiors the moment Eli Fell}. Death - get them talking about their own soul-death. Theft - don't capture them - get The Wind to steal all their stuff. On Bands (not Flowers specific methods): Liars - Discord(Truthfulness) Bracers. They'll either explode with the dissonance or learn to start their conversations with 'you know I'm telling the truth because of the Discord Bracers..' Those that survive will be using their honesty more effectively than they used their Balseraph resonance. At that point Truthfulness looks good. Djinn - Backlash resonance. Being treated well by someone they're obsessed with would probably crack them open. Of course, a Djinn whose got backlash from another Djinn would probably try to trick his attuned into getting backlashed on him, so there's probably Djinn couples floating around. Lilim - angels have the Freedom to Fall. Demons can't Redeem without help. Who is the most Free? God let Lilith leave Eden. How often can anyone leave Hell? Oh, and let them detect the Need for their Redemption. Try to avoid them detecting the Need to have them detect the Need for their redemption. Etc. Calabim - Celestial Speed. Or being in a car going down the wrong side of the Freeway with an Ofanite at the wheel. Habbalah - you're going to be tested at how well you can test people. Failure will be punished severely. First test - take down this (Will 12 angel/Will 10 Blessed human) using Emptiness. Shedim - if they can be tricked into possessing a holy Blessed human, they'll see the humans view, and start racking up dissonance. [For Shedim of Death, force them into the body of a Soldier of Hell who's irredeemable before executing him in the Tether Locus. A first hand understanding of Death should improve their outlook] Impudites - don't capture, just repeatedly arrange for them to be able to save human lives - preferably ones which have been endangered by Diabolical plots. They'll either rack up dissonance or help the Flower-children make the world a better place. Redeeming Impudites is probably Novalis' speciality. James. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:27:57 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Marc Fest - Organisation Janet's Temps' is a large agency which specialises in providing telephone staff for other organisations' busy periods. One of the reasons they are so popular is that the temps work from Janet's - calls are redirected to the phones in the office, avoiding over crowding in the offices of the hiring organisation. Although many employers are initially suspicious of having telephone staff so far away from office records, Janet's reputation overcomes most fears. Certainly Janet's has an outstanding record. The fact that they are routinely letter bombed is not mentioned, except when explaining to suspicious government officials why Janet's will not list a street address. Janet's is, of course, a cover organisation for Trade. 'Janet Simpson' was the Role of a Malakite of Trade who specialised in infiltrating diabolical organisations as a secretary. Feeling honour-bound to fulfil her contract efficiently, 'Janet' built up a reputation which allowed her to start a secretarial business which thrived under angelic supervision. 'Janet' has since had to retire, due to the age of the Role and as the Malakite has since earned the Word of Telephone Transactions; however Janet's continues to thrive. To be employed by Janet's, the employee have a spotless record, either (as a human) having been cleared by one of Laurence's Soldier recruitment teams or (as an Angel) being recommended by one's direct superior and being cleared by the Divine Inquisition. More importantly, they must have an effective Will (for resisting Diabolical resonances) of 12+. Thus, every human working in Janet's has the Blessed Advantage, and most (but not all) are aware of the War. Seraphim are the most common angels working in Janet's. The primary purpose of Janet's is to cause Balseraphs and Habbalah dissonance. The telephone numbers of all known demons are passed by most Heavenly organisations (especially Trade & The Sword, but more importantly by Destiny & Revelation) to Janet's. If the demon rings any organisation Janet's is working for, the call is automatically transferred to Janet's, with a warning message to the telephone operator that this will be 'a difficult customer'. Whether dealing with a credit card debt or getting electricity reconnected, Balseraphs & Habbalah tend to overuse their resonance. Further, unlike most organisations, it's fairly easy to persuade the employees of Janet's to put you through to someone 'higher up'; the idea is that if a Balseraphs' resonance fails on one individual but doesn't cause the Balseraph dissonance, giving the Balseraph another chance to hurt themselves is the way to go. Also, if the demon actually succeeds in persuading someone (which normally requires an Infernal Intervention) having an extra rung in the hierarchy prevents them from actually getting what they want. Once a Balseraph has succeeded in giving himself dissonance, Janet's carefully records who did so and prevents the Balseraph from speaking with that individual again 'unless they can prove' [whatever]. This causes Balseraph's who are attempting to rid themselves of dissonance to rack up even more. Other demons end up ringing Janet's, of course. Impudites are especially common, closely followed by Shedim (or more accurately, Shedim tend to be in Celestial while someone else rings). Sadly Janet's cannot cause them much damage, other than foiling their plans. The secondary purpose of Janet's is spying. To fulfil their work, the company must have access to the employing company's records, so these are carefully combed for irregularities. Although no demonically influenced business would employ Janet's, this has been useful for dealing with mundane corruption. Janet's does not reveal the corruption themselves but instead passes the information on to The Sword for later use. Additionally, Seraphim eavesdrop on all conversations with demons - Seraphim of Revelations are particularly skilled at this task (although they are not permitted to actually talk to customers, of course!) All conversations with demons are recorded, allowing Elohim, Malakim & Mercurians to analyse the demon's personality at their leisure. Janet's will happily lease transcripts to other angels. Not all of Janet's employees man the 'phones. Kyriotates of Lightning are especially well-paid - they inhabit the phones of the Balseraphs who've rung Janet's to spy on the demon and enjoy 'answering' a phone call by the Liar - and causing the Balseraph still more dissonance. The War will NEVER be mentioned within the office. Even if everyone present is aware of it, there is too much risk of a Perceptive demon who has rung Janet's overhearing the conversation. Also, office machinery is impressively quiet, and can never be heard over the phones - Janet's learnt the hard way that infuriated Calabim will use their resonance on anything they can hear. The 'phones themselves do not ring, merely flash to indicate callers. Janet's buys a number of other agencies every year. These are split, amalgamated, disbanded, downsized, rightsized etc before being resold - allowing Janet's to slip paper trails for angelic Roles into the cracks. Janet's makes a sizeable profit from this. Additionally, on two occasions this has allowed Janet's to destroy the Roles of Impudites of Lust who were infiltrating human society as secretaries. Janet's is major concern is with Tax. If they can get a major contract with Taxation, they'll be able to bankrupt demonic Roles at will. This is being fought by Hell tooth and nail - anyone who can help Janet's win this battle will be richly rewarded by Trade. James. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 06:09:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Carrot Juice is Murder - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Olio > Habbalite of Flowers (actually, Dark Humor) Did we eat a salad that didn't agree with us, Moe? };> Funny if dreadfully wierd piece of work. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 06:11:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> I probably need to be told "NO" in a firm voice for this one... - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Naming Lilim of Heresy after ex-girlfriends is a > really stupid idea on at least three different levels, > right? My one question is, are the ex-girlfriends likely to find out? If they are, then it's stupid to the point of being suicidal. Otherwise it's merely cathartic. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 06:23:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> MarcFest: New Servitor - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Scott > Mercurian Friend of the Shareholders Interesting NPC. Of course, suspending disbelief for this one required a (quantum) leap of faith. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 06:29:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Reaping what one sows... - --- Michael Cleveland wrote: > Minutes later, as the building was falling in him around > and he felt > something cold and metal sliding through his Vessel's > neck, he thought of > something that chilled him even more than the feeling of > Corporeal death - > the thought that if he had calculated things slightly > more precisely, he could have predicted this... > > In essence, the thought that he had just outplayed > himself... Nicely done, that. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:25:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> MarcFest: Talents The"coin" of the Celestial Plane's economy is generally taken to be Essence. This is fine and good, and Marc, as an emminently practical Archangel, usually goes along with this. But remember that Marc invented the idea of money, and he has reasons for wanting to apply it to the Celestial Plane, too. So Marc issues and backs a currency. The basic unit is called the "talent," on the rare occasions when its discussed on the Corporeal Plane. The name was first applied in the eastern Mediterranean during the Hellenistic period. For centuries, a "talent" was a unit of weight in that area, and a talent of gold or silver was a common unit of money -- well, commonly referred to; since a talent is several pounds, it's not a common amount of money to encounter. The Celestial Talent is likewise a pretty formidable unit. It's worth one character point. This means Marc is able to put a monetary value on Songs, relics, reliquaries, geases, and of course on demons and angels. The reaction of several Archangels, when they first heard of the idea, and heard the price of a new-minted reliever, was (in the most ineffable and celestially dignified way, of course), "Eep!" Jean was not much moved; Michael laughed. But Eli and Dominic, in a biut of cosmic irony, found themselves on the same side of the issue, sharing a feeling of deep distaste. Mammon, of course, tried to copy the idea and issue infernal currency. In fact, he's tried several times, but each currency winds up devaluing to less than the essence its printed on, due to logarithmic inflation, after a few months or years. As a result, talents circulate briskly in Hell. As an exercise, anyone care to estimate the exchange rate of the talent (i.e. a character point) and a dollar, pound, or euro? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:38:47 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> MarcFest: Talents Oh, I should have added that the talent usuall circulates in small fractions. One 144th is the largest value of coin or bill in general circulation. One 144,000th is the unit most people do their reckoning in. I don't have nifty names for these; any suggestions? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:03:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> MarcFest: New Servitor - --- Michael Walton wrote: > Interesting NPC. Of course, suspending disbelief > for > this one required a (quantum) leap of faith. > I didn't think that he was that unbelievable ... HEY! ;) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 06/05/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:32:34 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> MarcFest: Talents >The Celestial Talent is likewise a pretty formidable unit. >It's worth one character point. This means Marc is able to >put a monetary value on Songs, relics, reliquaries, geases, >and of course on demons and angels. > >The reaction of several Archangels, when they first heard of the idea, >and heard the price of a new-minted reliever, was (in the >most ineffable and celestially dignified way, of course), "Eep!" I gotta second that reaction. Putting a price -- even in Essence or character points -- on a sentient being is just icky to me, and sounds much more like something Mammon would do. The point of currency is that you own it, or at least the right to use it, and you trade it away for ownership or usage rights of something else. A labor contract is one thing, but the creation of a sentient being is something else entirely. >Jean was not much moved; Michael laughed. But Eli and Dominic, >in a biut of cosmic irony, found themselves on the same side of >the issue, sharing a feeling of deep distaste. > >Mammon, of course, tried to copy the idea and issue infernal >currency. In fact, he's tried several times, but each currency >winds up devaluing to less than the essence its printed on, due >to logarithmic inflation, after a few months or years. As a result, >talents circulate briskly in Hell. Now this, I can see. I also wish to point out your phrase, "the Essence it's printed on." Since Essence is the primary currency of the Celestial, the money would probably be measured in terms of Essence. Fractions of an Essence could be very useful for small transactions in Heaven (although see You are Here, the coffee shop, for an interesting depiction of a transaction at full rate). The money would probably be backed (theoretically) by Marc himself -- similar to the old gold standard, you could trade in the coinage for Essence at designated spots. Alternatively, the coinage itself could be a one-shot, non-regenerating, self-consuming reliquary -- vanish the money, get the Essence. However, in a freakish turn of events, Khalid might back a move to get away from the Essence standard and into a system like most economies today, where the value of the currency is based not on a trade, but on the consumer's confidence that the governing body can enforce its value as a medium of trade (i.e., you can guarantee that all debts are payable in the currency). Hell, of course, could never meet such a standard, and would have to stick to an Essence standard. >As an exercise, anyone care to estimate the exchange rate of >the talent (i.e. a character point) and a dollar, pound, or euro? Well, in GURPS a character point can be traded for quick cash equal to a month's income, and three GURPS points are roughly 1 standard IN point, making it approximately three month's salary. This, of course, depends on the angel; in dollars, three months' salary (net) could be anywhere from $3,000 to $30,000 or more. >Earl William ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:08:39 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> MarcFest: Talents William J. Keith wrote: > I gotta second that reaction. Putting a price -- even in Essence > or character points -- on a sentient being is just icky to me, > and sounds much more like something Mammon would do. Emulating a Mercurian of Trade: No doubt only an evil being would buy and sell relievers. The same applies to babies. But there is a clear and quantifiable cost to acquiring a baby -- hospital bills from the maternity ward, plus prenatal doctor visits, plus maternity wear, plus the value of the goods given at the baby shower, etc. Likewise, it costs Archangels resources to create relievers; this cost can now be quantified. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:27:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> MarcFest: Talents - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > As an exercise, anyone care to estimate the exchange rate > of > the talent (i.e. a character point) and a dollar, pound, > or euro? I might if I had a yen for such things. But mark my words, it'll come to a bad end. You'll see that, pound for pound, the whole scheme makes no cents. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:28:30 -0700 From: Daiv Subject: IN> MarcFest: Money (was Talents) Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > But remember that Marc invented the idea of money... Did he? I Just checked his write up in the main book, and it does not say anything about him inventing Money. Does this information appear elsewhere? And i think this is a fairly important point, in game. Was money a creation of the Divine or the Diabolical? Or was it a totally Human thing, one more new idea that the hairless apes came up with that each side of the war had to react to? Just for the sake of debate, it could be a subtle diabolical invention. Money, in the end, has no intrinsic value. You cannot eat it, or use it to shelter or protect yourself. It is only valuable if all participating parties agree to its value. The accumulation of Money, for its own sake, is definitely the domain of the Diabolical (Mammon, to be exact). And if I had a second cup of coffee, I could probably come up with more arguments to that effect (hmm, coffee as the root of all evil... nah.) On the other hand, it easily could fall into Marcs area. trade is, as I have suggested before, the exchange of things of equal value. Money gives a common language to the value. How else do you decide how many pigs those sheep are worth? Personally, I think that Money is one of those Human things. I tend to go with the idea that Humans, by nature, are more intrinsically creative than celestials, in the sense of being able to think of a new solution to problems. Even Eli has something to learn from humans, in terms of new, creative thought and abstract ideas. Of course, that's just my idea. -Daiv, Tech Writer in service to Coffee, in search of a Superior ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:55:40 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> MarcFest: Money (was Talents) Daiv wrote: > > Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > > > But remember that Marc invented the idea of money... > > Did he? I Just checked his write up in the main book, and it > does not say anything about him inventing Money. Okay, it was my in-head memory of the main book that he was credited with inventing money. I admit it does not sound like a very angelic invention. Did he invent something else financial? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:14:22 -0700 From: Daiv Subject: Re: IN> MarcFest: Money (was Talents) Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Daiv wrote: > > > > Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > > > > > But remember that Marc invented the idea of money... > > > > Did he? I Just checked his write up in the main book, and it > > does not say anything about him inventing Money. > > Okay, it was my in-head memory of the main book that he was > credited with inventing money. I admit it does not sound like > a very angelic invention. Did he invent something else financial? > > Earl That is, he invented the . Of course, he calls it "the fine print in the contract", but it amounts to the same thing; influence which cannot be consciously perceived, but still has a tremendous and deep impact on the relevant parties. Note, in the Main Book write up, it does say that he you should always read his contracts carefully for fine print and hidden Clauses. or is that just silly? Between the coffee and the Red Elvises, I cannot tell anymore. -Daiv, tech writer in service to coffee, searching for a superior. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:24:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> MarcFest: Money (was Talents) - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Okay, it was my in-head memory of the main book that he > was > credited with inventing money. I admit it does not sound > like > a very angelic invention. Did he invent something else > financial? The write-up in the main book says that Marc invented the concept of the salary -- big difference. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:38:21 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> MarcFest: Money (was Talents) Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Daiv wrote: > > > > Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > > > > > But remember that Marc invented the idea of money... > > > > Did he? I Just checked his write up in the main book, and it > > does not say anything about him inventing Money. > > Okay, it was my in-head memory of the main book that he was > credited with inventing money. I admit it does not sound like > a very angelic invention. Did he invent something else financial? > The concept of a salary. Particularly in a High-Contrast Forwards game, that could be expanded to "the concept of money as a fair reward for work." - -- Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:45:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN: question about vessel death At 5:15 PM -0400 6/9/01, John S Hawkins wrote: >Hi there...I'm new to the list, but I've been lurking for a bit. I was >wondering if someone could clear up a bit of confusion for me. In the >discussion of corporeal death, it says that the celestial reforms near >their heart, possibly shellshocked. Fine so far. But what I'm >wondering is what happens to the vessel? It's gone. > Can you just 're-grow' it for >an essence? Nope. (A previous pre-publication version of the game had Essence as sort of _equal_ to character points. In that version, you _did_ "spend" permanent Essence on a vessel... Which is where the off-hand remark about the Cherub's vessel, in the vignette, comes from.) > If so, then what about celestials with 2+ vessels? The >rules state that you can cheat death if you have another vessel you can >escape to RIGHT NOW. Via a Body Bag. If this is not errata'ed on the errata page, or in the Blue Book, it needs to be... >So given all that, I'm wondering if maybe you just lose the vessel >PERMANENTLY. Bingo. > But that seems pretty harsh...what's the accepted way of >dealing with death? (I own most of the source material, so references >are gladly accepted if I'm just missing something here...) The Game Master's Guide, IIRC, has something to say about this... I think it boils down to: "Does your Superior (in the GM's opinion) think that you lost the vessel in a _stupid_ way, or was it in a good way that he (she) will feel good about replacing it as a mini-reward for a good job?" I would say more but my hands are being hit by a baby. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:49:57 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN: question about vessel death At 7:01 PM -0400 6/9/01, John S Hawkins wrote: >On Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 02:29:57PM -0700, Kish wrote: >> It's dead. Left behind on Earth, likely to be given a funeral and >> buried. >> >> > So given all that, I'm wondering if maybe you just lose the vessel >> > PERMANENTLY. >> >> Yes. > >Okay, that makes sense. Then how do you deal with a player who's out >his only vessel? [...] Go into debt; i.e., your Superior doesn't think you're a _total_ loss, so you get a vessel (and probably little say about it) and a job at the same time. If you do the job right, the Superior doesn't yank you back to the celestial realms and you get to keep the vessel. See p. 19 of the GMG for more details. (The baby got off my lap, so I was able to check the book. O:> >I appologize, btw, if these questions are not appropriate for the list. >It seems like the obvious place to ask them, in abstract, but I note >that all the posts I've seen in the past few weeks have been things like >sharing background material and such... www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/listrules.html -- says right there that you're allowed to ask stuff like that. O:> (See? It's not _all_ restrictions in that file!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:45:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN: question about vessel death At 5:15 PM -0400 6/9/01, John S Hawkins wrote: >Hi there...I'm new to the list, but I've been lurking for a bit. I was >wondering if someone could clear up a bit of confusion for me. In the >discussion of corporeal death, it says that the celestial reforms near >their heart, possibly shellshocked. Fine so far. But what I'm >wondering is what happens to the vessel? It's gone. > Can you just 're-grow' it for >an essence? Nope. (A previous pre-publication version of the game had Essence as sort of _equal_ to character points. In that version, you _did_ "spend" permanent Essence on a vessel... Which is where the off-hand remark about the Cherub's vessel, in the vignette, comes from.) > If so, then what about celestials with 2+ vessels? The >rules state that you can cheat death if you have another vessel you can >escape to RIGHT NOW. Via a Body Bag. If this is not errata'ed on the errata page, or in the Blue Book, it needs to be... >So given all that, I'm wondering if maybe you just lose the vessel >PERMANENTLY. Bingo. > But that seems pretty harsh...what's the accepted way of >dealing with death? (I own most of the source material, so references >are gladly accepted if I'm just missing something here...) The Game Master's Guide, IIRC, has something to say about this... I think it boils down to: "Does your Superior (in the GM's opinion) think that you lost the vessel in a _stupid_ way, or was it in a good way that he (she) will feel good about replacing it as a mini-reward for a good job?" I would say more but my hands are being hit by a baby. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:49:57 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN: question about vessel death At 7:01 PM -0400 6/9/01, John S Hawkins wrote: >On Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 02:29:57PM -0700, Kish wrote: >> It's dead. Left behind on Earth, likely to be given a funeral and >> buried. >> >> > So given all that, I'm wondering if maybe you just lose the vessel >> > PERMANENTLY. >> >> Yes. > >Okay, that makes sense. Then how do you deal with a player who's out >his only vessel? [...] Go into debt; i.e., your Superior doesn't think you're a _total_ loss, so you get a vessel (and probably little say about it) and a job at the same time. If you do the job right, the Superior doesn't yank you back to the celestial realms and you get to keep the vessel. See p. 19 of the GMG for more details. (The baby got off my lap, so I was able to check the book. O:> >I appologize, btw, if these questions are not appropriate for the list. >It seems like the obvious place to ask them, in abstract, but I note >that all the posts I've seen in the past few weeks have been things like >sharing background material and such... www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/listrules.html -- says right there that you're allowed to ask stuff like that. O:> (See? It's not _all_ restrictions in that file!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:28:45 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: IN> Sup1 -- Error? I checked the FAQ and the Errata, and this wasn't listed. I don't know if it's an oversight, or deliberately not put in, though, so I'm not quite calling it an erratum yet. *ahem* Creationers in Service to War? I'd think he'd have some, since the opinions explicitly say that he has no objections to Creationers themselves, and yet there's no description of these angels in Michael's writeup. Perhaps it would go something like this: Michael willingly took some of Eli's more warlike Servitors into his organization. They can produce fine weapons, and Eli's Malakim have impressed a number of Warriors. Capable of retreating, the Creationers are sometimes called upon to get reinforcements -- or, if they have earned great trust, are put into command when a retreat may become necessary. This generates little respect, though. Occasionally, Creationers will bear some of the stigma of Michael's opinion that Eli has "gone AWOL." However, angels of War eventually judge beings by their individual merits, and by this standard the angels of Creation are worthy of the name "comrades-in-arms." William ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2259 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.